5th league in England...Do you know?
I genuinely don’t
If you do, can you provide a link to that info?
But the genie is out of the bottle. What’s 3pm blackout going to do when it’s the dregs of what the tv companies have left?People talk from experience. I know I stopped going to watch my local team when it became easier to stay at home in the warm and watch Man United. I know I’m not the only one. There are plenty with their fingers in their ears saying it makes no difference. What are they basing that on?
The clubs don’t want it. The article suggests the Premier League themselves are reluctant to change what works for them. The only people complaining about it are the same people who are saying how easy it is to stream. If it’s so easy, do it.
Had a quick look on Google, numbers were old, not reliable and genereally not worth much, but Oberliga, the german 5th division, seems to have average attendances of 300-1000. So absolutely impressive numbers by the english leagues.5th league in England...
https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/national-league/attendances
I couldn't find a similar site for German or Spanish 5th tier attendances. I would imagine that they don't have multiple 5th tier sides getting over 5K weekly attendances though.
They probably aren't going because they'd rather wank themselves silly on pornhub or are playing Fortnite with their mates moreso than watching a football team they don't supportRidiculously outdated rule now.
Also, I don't think fans of lower league teams are going to not go due to United v Newcastle..
Does it matter to the lower league club if you're an avid fan of them as long as you pay your £15 to get in & potentially buy a drink or two while you're there?If watching Man United at 3pm is the reason you wont go see your local team then are you really a fan? With so many entertainment choices these days this rule seems so silly.
It makes less difference now than it once did perhaps. That doesn’t mean it makes no difference. It also depends on what people are suggesting happens in future. Will games be spread out the way they were last year or will five or six teams still kick off at 3 and people choose which one they want to watch? One obviously has a bigger potential impact than the other. If we’re suggesting spreading games out over several kick off times then they’re not giving a feck about people who go to those games.But the genie is out of the bottle. What’s 3pm blackout going to do when it’s the dregs of what the tv companies have left?
What lower league games do Man Utd even routinely clash against these days?
Appreciate your efforts and thanks for that link5th league in England...
https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/national-league/attendances
I couldn't find a similar site for German or Spanish 5th tier attendances. I would imagine that they don't have multiple 5th tier sides getting over 5K weekly attendances though.
It’s just because they’re English. Obviously.Had a quick look on Google, numbers were old, not reliable and genereally not worth much, but Oberliga, the german 5th division, seems to have average attendances of 300-1000. So absolutely impressive numbers by the english leagues.
Is there evidence to to suggest attendances would drop dramatically if they scraped the rule? Right now it seems like it’s all based on assumptions, until it’s properly tested we’ll never know. Now if they did lift it and that was the case then fair enough there’s still good reason for it being there but until then people are going to label it an outdated rule that needs to be scraped.You honestly don't have a clue, that is literally what happens. People go and watch their local clubs generally from a younger age and it sticks with them. Watching lower league games, the amount of "big club" shirts, coats etc you see on people is ridiculous. Some people when they get older will go off and watch the "big club", other will stay and that is how the fanbases of such clubs survive. I don't know many people at all that started watching their local club at an older age.
Fair point. I don't really know about logistics so that might be difficult. I guess that would rely upon a governing body who look out for the smaller teams, which is probably easier said than done.I get the theory, but what happens at the end of that 5 year TV deal period? They're not going to keep subsidising it forever. Also not really because the FA tends to think football stops at League 2 so the non-league clubs would be even more fecked.
It doesn't make the english football pyramid any better than others if it needs to be protected by a nation wide blackout.It’s just because they’re English. Obviously.
Immediately? Maybe they wouldn't drop massively. Over 10-20-30 years? It would be catastrophic because the people who would usually take their kids to watch the local club on a Saturday would instead stay in and watch their "big club" on TV instead.Is there evidence to to suggest attendances would drop dramatically if they scraped the rule? Right now it seems like it’s all based on assumptions, until it’s properly tested we’ll never know. Now if they did lift it and that was the case then fair enough there’s still good reason for it being there but until then people are going to label it and outdated rule that needs to be scraped.
Why would it matter what the reasons are? Man City being better than Charlton because they are backed by an oil nation doesn’t make the fact any less true. It’s also just one reason. Not using the leagues as training grounds for big teams reserve teams plays a part too.It doesn't make the english football pyramid any better than others if it needs to be protected by a nation wide blackout.
A lot of this though is surely supply and demand, and whether football teams / business have any expectations of being helped by having fans / customers of more successful clubs / business being hindered in their preferences?My local club probably loses 100-150 off the gate when Wolves are at home on a Saturday through people going there instead. If Wolves were televised away from home at 3pm then that would be 100-150 off the gate pretty much permanently. And they're 20 miles away, I shudder to think what it would do to Curzon Ashton for example within a few miles of both Manchester clubs & averaging less than 300 every week.
Ask yourself would society be better off if we did have laws to make it easier for those smaller businesses to compete. If the answer is yes then maybe apply it to whether keeping the blackout may also be a good thing.I'm sure online shopping for big shops further hinders smaller and more local competitors who are already struggling to compete. But should we deny / limit peoples rights to online shop just to help the local store get more customers?
I'm sure a wide choice of films being on TV, Netflix, etc, hinders the struggling local theatres / drama clubs and the like. But there's no suggestions of denying access to them for those who enjoy watching them to encourage people to attend smaller, local productions who struggle for audiences. And many more examples...
Who could possibly think like this?I get the argument about protecting the lower leagues, but there's huge amounts of money involved in securing TV rights now.
In theory, could the money from a potential deal like that not trickle down and therefore reduce the burden on gate receipts to keep those clubs afloat?
It’s less impressive when you actually compare the the structure of the pyramids. 5th tier vs 5th tier makes no sense when Germanys’s reggionalliga 4th tier has about 100 clubs. England’s 5th tier is about the 90-110th ranked clubs in England. Germany’s 5th tier is about the 150+ ranked clubs. It isn’t like for like comparison at all.Had a quick look on Google, numbers were old, not reliable and genereally not worth much, but Oberliga, the german 5th division, seems to have average attendances of 300-1000. So absolutely impressive numbers by the english leagues.
This is just so bizarre right though? Like in what other circumstances could you do this when you are essentially selling a product. Sorry you can't buy black or white shoes at the moment because it will impact the sellers of bright coloured shoes...well maybe some people would decide they need shoes whatever the colour....but most would just not buy shoes that day.Because if Man United/Liverpool were on telly every saturday at 3pm, less people would go to watch the likes of Shewsbury Town live at 3pm on a saturday.
A German 5th tier...highest attendance is 365.Appreciate your efforts and thanks for that link
however I meant a link for the attendances in 5 tier in Spain or Germany
or is it all just venting based on speculation ?
Does having a population of 27m less people not counter that perhaps?It’s less impressive when you actually compare the the structure of the pyramids. 5th tier vs 5th tier makes no sense when Germanys’s reggionalliga 4th tier has about 100 clubs. England’s 5th tier is about the 90-110th ranked clubs in England. Germany’s 5th tier is about the 150+ ranked clubs. It isn’t like for like comparison at all.
It's not necessarily the Newport County fans who will skip it, it's the Man United and Newcastle (or just neutral fans if its a big game) fans who would otherwise catch a live game.If you call yourself a fan of Accrington Stanley or Newport County, but a plain old league match between United and Newcastle makes you say I rather stay home to watch that than go and watch the the club I'm actually a fan of, then are you truly a fan of that club?
Is the whole lower league passionate fan culture that's spoken of so fondly just artificially generated?
Just as an example, even though it's not exactly the same thing because it's different sports. I've always made no secret of the fact that I value sports stuff related to my country far more than any club stuff. If there's ever a time when West Indies are playing, but United are also playing at the same time, unless it's like a big CL tie or a big league match, I would always watch WI over United, because that's where more of my allegiance lies.
It’s not just the now, it’s the future too. Kids may be more tempted to stay at home and watch big teams rather than go to games. Kids that could then become fans of that team.If you call yourself a fan of Accrington Stanley or Newport County, but a plain old league match between United and Newcastle makes you say I rather stay home to watch that than go and watch the the club I'm actually a fan of, then are you truly a fan of that club?
Is the whole lower league passionate fan culture that's spoken of so fondly just artificially generated?
Just as an example, even though it's not exactly the same thing because it's different sports. I've always made no secret of the fact that I value sports stuff related to my country far more than any club stuff. If there's ever a time when West Indies are playing, but United are also playing at the same time, unless it's like a big CL tie or a big league match, I would always watch WI over United, because that's where more of my allegiance lies.
How common is that in England? Someone going to a random lower league game involving clubs they aren't fans of?It's not necessarily the Newport County fans who will skip it, it's the Man United and Newcastle (or just neutral fans if its a big game) fans who would otherwise catch a live game.
I'd wager that kids/teenagers are far more likely to seek out a stream to bypass this law, to watch the big teams, than someone 30+ might do. I don't think this law is going to affect kids being influenced into following big clubs rather than their local teams. Just my assumption of course.It’s not just the now, it’s the future too. Kids may be more tempted to stay at home and watch big teams rather than go to games. Kids that could then become fans of that team.
Great pointIt’s less impressive when you actually compare the the structure of the pyramids. 5th tier vs 5th tier makes no sense when Germanys’s reggionalliga 4th tier has about 100 clubs. England’s 5th tier is about the 90-110th ranked clubs in England. Germany’s 5th tier is about the 150+ ranked clubs. It isn’t like for like comparison at all.
Less great point when you think about population.Great point
the only place where you can kind of start to compare is probably 3rd tier
In Germany for example in 3 Liga (our league 1 equivalent) its quite comparable attendance wise to League One
several teams in 3 Liga with 10,000+ attendances, the same as our League One. Sunderland is an exception mind you, 29,000 average attendance in League One, pretty similar numbers after them and Ipswich though, very comparable and doesn’t show Germans 3 Liga to be “way off”
not in any way shape or form
Pretty common. It's usually not a "random" lower league game, it's most often your local club.How common is that in England? Someone going to a random lower league game involving clubs they aren't fans of?
Yeah I don't think you understand quote how many people follow their local club as well as a big club.If you call yourself a fan of Accrington Stanley or Newport County, but a plain old league match between United and Newcastle makes you say I rather stay home to watch that than go and watch the the club I'm actually a fan of, then are you truly a fan of that club?
If lower league clubs are dependant on the attendence of fans who don't even support them, then their business model is fecked to begin with.
Why should Stockport County be dependant on City fans to keep them afloat.
This is just so bizarre right though? Like in what other circumstances could you do this when you are essentially selling a product. Sorry you can't buy black or white shoes at the moment because it will impact the sellers of bright coloured shoes...well maybe some people would decide they need shoes whatever the colour....but most would just not buy shoes that day.
Even if you look at it from entertainment it's like saying we are closing Alton towers or Disneyland paris for a day because not as many people will go to some rubbish dodgy fairground if they stay open...well that's kind of the idea of choice in a market.
As unpopular a viewpoint as these are, I think there are some very good points made in all these posts and I've already posted similar.If you call yourself a fan of Accrington Stanley or Newport County, but a plain old league match between United and Newcastle makes you say I rather stay home to watch that than go and watch the the club I'm actually a fan of, then are you truly a fan of that club?
Is the whole lower league passionate fan culture that's spoken of so fondly just artificially generated?
Fair enough then. Wasn't aware there was such a large proportion of people that are fans of a big club and their local club as well. I don't think I would have it in me to be passionate about two different football clubs, but more power to those who can.Pretty common. It's usually not a "random" lower league game, it's most often your local club.
My dad is a Chelsea nut but is in his late 60s now and gave up away games a while ago. He will get to lots of Wimbledon and Sutton United games because he can get there easily and enjoys a live match.
Whenever I go with him and chat to the regulars there's loads of people in the same boat.
If you go to a Salford match that's a 3pm kick off there will be a load of Man United fans there.
An extra 15 million?Less great point when you think about population.
27m. Or an extra 48%. That’s a lot of potential customers. The comparison doesn’t seem all that fair anymore.an extra 15 million?
First, the difference between Germany and England is nearly 30 million.An extra 15 million?
if it were an extra 100 million fair enough
but 15?
It's really not about being "passionate", I don't really give much of a shit about Sutton United but it's a fun afternoon out. Going to a live match is great, regardless of who you support.Fair enough then. Wasn't aware there was such a large proportion of people that are fans of a big club and their local club as well. I don't think I would have it in me to be passionate about two different football clubs, but more power to those who can.
I’m seen some stupid analogies in my days but well done, this is fabulous.Sorry you can't buy black or white shoes at the moment because it will impact the sellers of bright coloured shoes...well maybe some people would decide they need shoes whatever the colour....but most would just not buy shoes that day.
