The 4-Way Draft R1: Skizzo vs Raees

[Chesterlestreet]

Votes should be about the XI vs XI contest. It's not a popularity contest. Voting for pity, for punishment, or based on some personal agenda alien to the game... it's all nonsense.

People vote for all sorts of reasons, mostly unknown. You don't get to dictate what grounds people vote on - or change their votes on.

It's not unreasonable to punish a manager for perceived gamesmanship - these matches aren't 100% objective assessments of two XIs, they're also a contest between the two managers arguing their cases.

The logical thing to do, following your reasoning, would be to ban the managers from the match threads altogether: They're hardly ever objective, they shamelessly exaggerate, they frequently make it personal and they nearly always do whatever they can to make sure people don't focus on the XIs if the latter serves their interests.

Would be boring, though.

 

[Ecstatic]

The logical thing to do, following your reasoning, would be to ban the managers from the match threads altogether: They're hardly ever objective, they shamelessly exaggerate, they frequently make it personal and they nearly always do whatever they can to make sure people don't focus on the XIs if the latter serves their interests.

 

[antohan]

People vote for all sorts of reasons, mostly unknown. You don't get to dictate what grounds people vote on - or change their votes on.

I'm not dictating, you can't dictate shit if you can't enforce it, I'm just making a point.

It's not unreasonable to punish a manager for perceived gamesmanship - these matches aren't 100% objective assessments of two XIs, they're also a contest between the two managers arguing their cases.

The logical thing to do, following your reasoning, would be to ban the managers from the match threads altogether: They're hardly ever objective, they shamelessly exaggerate, they frequently make it personal and they nearly always do whatever they can to make sure people don't focus on the XIs if the latter serves their interests.

Would be boring, though.

Make up your mind. Each manager will have his own style, much like in real life, it's part of the fun. Ultimately it's the players that do the talking on the pitch and that's what should be assessed.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

It's really surprising on how much people discuss on ramping up importance of GK in the next draft thread, but in match thread, nobody even considers that an issue

I look at them as one of eleven players (and in this match, didn't sway me one way or the other). Never understood the "goalies are irrelevant"-style comments - if a side had Taibi in it, I'm sure people would bear that in mind?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Make up your mind. Each manager will have his own style, much like in real life, it's part of the fun. Ultimately it's the players that do the talking on the pitch and that's what should be assessed.

Ah, I see.

Then, presumably, it would be of some importance that the voters are aware of who's on the pitch. You can't possibly make a 100% fair assessment of the XIs if you're under the erroneous impression that X is playing.

Pretty basic stuff, no? You have multiple posters here admitting they thought it was the other guy. Didn't matter to some, did matter to others. Buffon, the GOAT is - well - a GOAT. Unlikely match winner in a star studded draft match, but not an impossible one (unlike most keepers).

The GOAT is a potential vote puller, the great uncle clearly isn't.

Enough reason to bring it up as a point? Yes, I'd say so.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I don't think any of us is capable to rate a GK like Buffon and - consequently - to assess the so-called gap between the GK.

Also, debates about GK are generally boring ad caricatural for my taste.

if we can judge players i dont see an issue with keepers, there is literally no difference.

 

[antohan]

Ah, I see.

Then, presumably, it would be of some importance that the voters are aware of who's on the pitch. You can't possibly make a 100% fair assessment of the XIs if you're under the erroneous impression that X is playing.

Pretty basic stuff, no? You have multiple posters here admitting they thought it was the other guy. Didn't matter to some, did matter to others. Buffon, the GOAT is - well - a GOAT. Unlikely match winner in a star studded draft match, but not an impossible one (unlike most keepers).

The GOAT is a potential vote puller, the great uncle clearly isn't.

Enough reason to bring it up as a point? Yes, I'd say so.

Sure, it's fine to clarify it, just not to switch three votes at the death when all Raees did was field Buffon and call him Buffon.

If anyone said Gigi had tipped the balance fine. They didn't, they were just being drama queens.

 

[Ecstatic]

I voted for raees because I think he would have won in a Milanese way of the 90s: more robust defensively, disciplined, not overly sexy but terribly effective.

Also, the greatest Spanish player deserves to be here, but does it make sense to deploy him as a a kind of #6? Kubala is pretty versatile but he is attracted by the heart of the Game: question mark about the lack of width in general.

Like some old-school SA players (Sivori, Pedernera...), Schiaffino was underrated and/or ignored.

Raees lacks creativity but the powerful Nordahl, the explosive Gullit and the Schiaffino was a sufficient trio; especially against a team whose defence is light.

 

[Ecstatic]

if we can judge players i dont see an issue with keepers, there is literally no difference.

Sure, no difference.

I just think it's more difficult to assess/rate a GK, especially an unknown GK.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I'd have preferred to see Savicevic instead of Zambrotta with a 4-2-3-1. I saw Skizzo's Dream-team inspired side having the edge in possession and creativity and as much as I like Raees's back 5, a back 4 set-up might have been better here imo.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Unless I'm mistaken people who are in the draft themselves thought it was Gigi. Probably didn't remember precisely what restriction R. was under.

Aye, I was the one who mentioned it initially precisely because I assumed it was Gigi Buffon until I did a double take and remembered the Milan restriction. I brought it up because it was only fair to Skizzo and moreover because it was fecking funny. The game was only two hours old at that point - I assumed it would be a quick matter of amending the team sheet at most and then crack on with the game. I've no idea how it ended up going virtually uncommented upon before the big overreaction right at the end. In fairness I also don't understand why the quality of goalkeeper would be irrelevant in such a close match.

 

[Ecstatic]

The Milanese Enrico Albertosi could have been picked: a GK, with strong track record/reputation, maybe better or greater than Zubizaretta.
However, I can understand why Lorenzo il Magnifico is here: 10 years at Milan AC (in line with the spirit of this draft),

As far as I'm concerned, the deciding factor wasn't the GK but the role of LS Miramontes who can't be viewed as a Pirlo; the latter playing in a different tactical configuration. So, I hope @Skizzo will free Miramontes and it would be an easy task given the quality and versatility of his players.

Milan side: I would have loved Liedholm (unpicked) and Rivera who was picked lately (by 2mufc at the 7th round)

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I've no idea how it ended up going virtually uncommented upon before the big overreaction right at the end. In fairness I also don't understand why the quality of goalkeeper would be irrelevant in such a close match.

There you have it.

It should have been corrected (or specified) as soon as you made that comment.

Wailing about «drama queens» as certain people do is ridiculous in this particular case. It was an issue in this match for several reasons.

And it could've been avoided easily: Yet again, make it a rule (to specify who you're fielding if there's any possible doubt). Nobody can object to that, surely, and this match proves that doing so is overdue.

 

[Enigma_87]

And it could've been avoided easily: Yet again, make it a rule (to specify who you're fielding if there's any possible doubt). Nobody can object to that, surely, and this match proves that doing so is overdue.

Think having a template like we had in older drafts for the write up with short player instructions should be mandatory - in this way issues like this will be easily avoided.

Basic things like defensive line, formation, style and player roles - B2B, playmaker, sweeper, stopper, etc with two names of the players below the formation graphic is easy enough.

 

[harms]

The Caf just doesn't forget.

Also, when are these drafts done? I wanted to be part of one again, but whenever I check a draft, it's already halfway through.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/next-draft-idea-discussion.403961/page-93

Just follow this thread and you'll be fine.