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The Argument for Giggs as our Next Manager

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Alex99

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I completely disagree. We weren't title challengers in Moyes year, neither last season. I think that it is unlikely that we'll be title challengers this season. We weren't title challengers for three years between 2002-2003 and 2006-2007.

Arsenal haven't been title challengers for a decade. They usually are more clser to Spurs (on points) than with the team who finishes first. Have they finished once within 10 points of the champion in the last 10 years? They are as much title challengers as Valencia or Schalke, on other words, not at all.
Are you really trying to argue that La Liga and the Bundesliga are just as competitive at the top end as the Premier League in terms of the number of consistently good sides?

Over the last decade, the Premier League has seen 3 different winners, all of which lifted the title more than once. United have 5, City 2, and Chelsea 3. Many make City firm favourites for this season as well.

Over the last decade, La Liga has also seen 3 different winners. However, only 2 of those lifted the title more than once, with Barca lifting 6, Madrid 3, and Atletico 1. Atletico are certainly not favourites this season, that mantle lies with Barca.

Over the last decade, the Bundesliga has seen 4 different winners. Again, only 2 lifted the title more than once. Bayern have 6, Dortmund 2, Wolfsburg 1, and Stuttgart 1. Bayern are firm favourites to lift the title this season.

Additionally, the Premier League has had just 6 teams appear in the top 4 positions over the last decade, all managing to finish there more than once, and all but Spurs appearing 5 or more times. There are also 4 teams that finished in second over the last decade, 3 of which are the title winners, with the other being Liverpool who have finished there twice in the last decade.

La Liga has had 10 teams appear in their top 4 over the last decade, with 4 of them appearing there just once, and only 4 appearing 5 or more times. The only runner up aside from Madrid and Barca is Villarreal, and they managed that just once, appearing in the top four just twice.

The Bundesliga has had 11 teams appear in their top 4, with just 3 appearing 5 or more times. Of the 6 runners up over the last decade, only Bayern, Schalke and Leverkusen have finished in the top 4 positions 5 or more times in the last decade, and of them, Bayern are the only team to win the title. Of the others, Dortmund have featured in the top 4 on 4 occasions, 2 during title wins and 2 as runner up, Wolfsburg have featured twice, once as title winner and once as runner, and Werder Bremen have featured 4 times, with 2 runners up finishes as their best. Stuttgart, the other title winner, have only finished in the top 4 twice in the last decade.

Please continue to tell me how La Liga and Bundesliga are as or more competitive at the top end than the Premier League.

For what it's worth, a title challenger doesn't necessarily have to finish within a certain number of points of the winner, just remain close enough to keep them worried for a good two thirds of the season.
 

JPRouve

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I don't mean to be blunt but it's pretty stupid to think it's that simple, it wasn't the last two times we needed new managers. Clearly there is logic for giving giggs the job, it might not be the best option but he guarantees some form of continuity.

Knowing who the manger will be in 18 months, what he wants to do with the team, and that the current manager thinks he should take over are understandable reasons for appointing giggs, he could be terrible, he could be a great manager, no one knows.

A DOF only become relevant if we have one and given we never have and have shown no indication of appointing one i can't see it happening unless LVG moves upstairs which would probably only increase the chances of giggs taking over.
:lol: Fair play, Giggs is an unknown, any projection made with him is an highly inaccurate one. The last two times we acted like proper idiots, obviously we could do it a third time, United try to much to be cute with Moyes, LVG and now Giggs.
 

Alex99

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From a strictly United "played under Fergie" model - we have the likes of Robson, Bruce, Strachan, Solskjaer, Keane, Hughes, Ince, Blanc etc as examples. Not exactly a glimmering list of success. Given such mediocrity, why on earth would Giggs be any different ?
Giggs came through the ranks under Fergie and pretty much saw out his career under Fergie. He's been entrenched in the most successful era in the club's history from the very beginning.
 

devilish

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The difficulty of a job depends on circumstance. The de-facto mission statement for a Real Madrid manager is likely to be "We will buy you great players, now win all the trophies."
Again, look at Mourinho (your supposedly "legendary" manager) this season. Ignoring results, he looks like he is on the verge of a breakdown - first the whole drama with the medical team, now his apparent plan of throwing his players under the bus (Matic last weekend). This is the first time in recent memory that Jose has actually had to face a bit of adversity and so far, it is not going well for him. Is he a man who can deliver success with a limited budget? Is he capable of carrying on that success for more than two years? Is he able to bring through youth players (my friend is a die hard Chelsea fan and has been appalled at Jose's unwillingness to give their youngsters more gametime)? These are all unanswered questions. I already discussed Guardiola.

I guess it depends on what you really want from the manager, and what you want from the club as a whole. If your sole concern is trophies at any cost (and the cost may be quite high), with a "win today, worry about tomorrow when it comes" sort of approach, I can see why you might like Mourinho. I think there is a bit more to it than that. I want to see attractive football, I want to see home grown youth products (if they are of sufficient quality) being developed. I want to see trophies as well of course, but these things are not mutually exclusive.

Finally, if you think that over the years as AM, the extent of Giggs' responsibilities is selecting powerpoint slides, then I think we need to dig out that word again "deluded".
I feel that Mourinho fell into the trap of losing the dressing room early in the season. That's a killer irrespective if you're Mourinho, Moyes, Capello or Giggs. Even SAF found it extremely difficult to keep the players motivated when they believed that he was retiring (the first retirement), in matter of fact he kept it under wraps to the last possible moment to avoid a similar situation. Football management at top level is a complex issue and can trip even the best. Imagine what it would do to someone with just 4 games of management under his belt
 

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Also Ditka has a huge personality and presence, you don't need to know him to see that he is special.
What he probably doesn't realize is that Ditka's success was largely predicated on the amazing 46 defense with Dent, Singletary, Hampton - which was ultimately Buddy Ryan's brainchild, and he had lucked into an all-time running game to go with the defense in Payton. We don't have a genius coordinator in the waiting to shape the way the team plays. Everyone saw exactly how great Ditka was at NO when he had to do it all by himself, this clown traded away the entire draft, and the #1 pick from the next season for Ricky Williams.
 

Jazz

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1) Yes and no. They wont do it based on romantisim and sentimentality however they may be relying on people that do. The Glazers know nothing about football so its only fair for them to rely on the football experts they have appointed to make such decisions (ex SAF and Charlton). What I am forecasting is that if Giggs makes a mess than SAF/Charlton wouldn't survive this second mistake (after Moyes saga). All traces of SAF, Charlton and the 'old way' would be removed from the club to make way to people who would put the club first rather than live on sentimentality. Call it crazy but maybe that is what the Glazers are planning all along.

2) I think the ones pushing Giggs are SAF and Charlton. LVG may have joined the banter in a bid of keeping his own people employed (once retired, his people will find it hard to find adequate employment just as SAF people did) and keep the old guard off his back
Agreed here. LVG is in no position (publicly at least) to go against SAF and the old guard.

The funny thing about SAF is that I believe a part of the problem is that he can't let go. It's understandable when you've had so much power for such a long time. This is blinding him. He probably sees Giggs as someone through whom he can maintain some modicum of power - completing bypassing whether or not he's suitable from a logical viewpoint. I love SAF, but he's risking bringing down the thing he built and loves. We partially went down already through Moyes - and still he doesn't seem to have learnt his lesson...
 

devilish

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Has disaster written all over it.

Class of 92 bollocks needs to be put to rest
I fear they will never do that unless they are given a proper shot in management. The sense of entitlement they have to the club is amazing. You start wondering if they think that they own the place

It Kind of reminds me of the mammoni (ie how Italians call those adults who refuse to leave their parent's nest)
 

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Giggs came through the ranks under Fergie and pretty much saw out his career under Fergie. He's been entrenched in the most successful era in the club's history from the very beginning.
And he's done quite well. Not sure how this is even remotely relevant to how he would manage though.
 

JPRouve

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What he probably doesn't realize is that Ditka's success was largely predicated on the amazing 46 defense with Dent, Singletary, Hampton - which was ultimately Buddy Ryan's brainchild, and he had lucked into an all-time running game to go with the defense in Payton. We don't have a genius coordinator in the waiting to shape the way the team plays. Everyone saw exactly how great Ditka was at NO when he had to do it all by himself, this clown traded away the entire draft, and the #1 pick from the next season for Ricky Williams.
Thanks, I didn't know that. The NFL should never be used as an example, it's a way too special environment.
 

.Rossi

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I fear they will never do that unless they are given a proper shot in management. The sense of entitlement they have to the club is amazing. You start wondering if they think that they own the place

It Kind of reminds me of the mammoni (ie how Italians call those adults who refuse to leave their parent's nest)
It's utterly bizarre.


Anyways, Pep goes to City, Klopp with the scouse, Jose at Chelsea, Ancelotti somewhere and we are stuck with this....
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/fo...oles-Neville-Butt-talking-tactics-United.html

Anyone who watches that clip, and says they are comfortable with that lot running things, are either lying or soft in the head
 

Raoul

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Has disaster written all over it.

Class of 92 bollocks needs to be put to rest
Imagine the romance and pageantry of having the class of 92 lead us into Europa league contention each year, while Klopp's Liverpool win the league and get to the CL final. :drool:
 

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I see you are one of those who measures it purely by the trophy count. Based on that, presumably Anderson is a better player than Gerrard (for example)?

I wont repeat what I just typed out in the post you quoted, but when I look at Guardiola and Mourinho - good managers both - I would say that both have a long way to go before they can be considered among the all time greats. Mourinho is a specialist at delivering short term success at a high monetary cost. Guardiola is a specialist at taking an already-great team and continuing/building on their success. He was also fortunate enough to inherit a Barcelona team featuring some of the best players in the world and one GOAT-contender. Again, I wouldnt consider Barca (or Bayern) as particularly hard or challenging jobs when he took them on. It might sound odd, but I consider him unproven, to an extent.
If Anderson was the main man behind United winning those trophies, then yes.

You can find 'contras' against every top manager (yes, even against Fergie) and then point out that every manager isn't as one of the best managers of all time. Mourinho and Pep are accepted as so, by the majority of football fans and experts.

And as I said, if Giggs showed he wasnt up to the task, I would be the first one calling for him to be sacked. I do not want continuity or long term appointments just for the sake of it, however when I look at the structure of United, it lends itself to a long term approach with managers, because the manager is entrusted with pretty much every single decision on the football side of the business, from the youth team to the transfers. You cannot have an approach where you give an individual that sort of power, and then change the individual every couple of years, because you will be stuck in an endless transition with no sort of long term plan.
I don't believe that. Appointing Giggs is irrational. I don't expect you then to become rational. Similarily how the people who defended Moyes in the end, were generally the people who wanted Moyes at the beginning.

Anyway, you get a manager. If things go right, he naturally stays here for a long time. It is what happened to Fergie, Matt and Arsene (yes, I am in first name with them). It can happen with 'Someone Someone' in the future. Cruyff or Pep for example were very linked with Ajax and Barca but then left them. It is possible that Giggsy would do the same here.

It is more likely that he'll stay here longer, but the entire idea of hiring a manager cause he will stay longer is a flawed logic. It is like making the roof of the house when you still don't have the basement. It will fail.

If we got a Director of Football, or something similar, then my stance on this would change dramatically, but that is a discussion for another thread. We have to have a long term plan - that doesnt necessarily mean we have to have a long term manager, but at the moment the manager is the only one in the hierarchy who can really construct and oversee that sort of plan. I am talking about youth development, transitioning from one team to the next (a skill of Ferguson's that in my view was centric to his continued success).
The director of football is the way to go, no ifs and buts. Ed is already having many competences that a director of football have. It depends a lot if we will make a formal appointment for a director of football (like Barca and Bayern do) or Ed will play that role (like Chelsea and Madrid * do). Still, the chances of having an all powerful manager are low. And to be fair, I am happy for that.

The difficulty of a job depends on circumstance. The de-facto mission statement for a Real Madrid manager is likely to be "We will buy you great players, now win all the trophies."
Again, look at Mourinho (your supposedly "legendary" manager) this season. Ignoring results, he looks like he is on the verge of a breakdown - first the whole drama with the medical team, now his apparent plan of throwing his players under the bus (Matic last weekend). This is the first time in recent memory that Jose has actually had to face a bit of adversity and so far, it is not going well for him. Is he a man who can deliver success with a limited budget? Is he capable of carrying on that success for more than two years? Is he able to bring through youth players (my friend is a die hard Chelsea fan and has been appalled at Jose's unwillingness to give their youngsters more gametime)? These are all unanswered questions. I already discussed Guardiola.

I guess it depends on what you really want from the manager, and what you want from the club as a whole. If your sole concern is trophies at any cost (and the cost may be quite high), with a "win today, worry about tomorrow when it comes" sort of approach, I can see why you might like Mourinho. I think there is a bit more to it than that. I want to see attractive football, I want to see home grown youth products (if they are of sufficient quality) being developed. I want to see trophies as well of course, but these things are not mutually exclusive.
Every manager has flaws. Fergie won only 2 UCL in 20+ years despite that he had the continuity and the resources. He went in the beginning 5 years without winning the league and at the height of his power, went three years without winning the league. Similarily Mourinho has flaws. And Guardiola.

But saying that appointing Mourinho/Guardiola/Ancelotti is not less risky than appointing Giggsy, is worse than saying that appoiting Fergie in '86 wasn't less risky than appointing Robson. Fergie back then had a very good CV, Mourinho, Guardiola and Ancelotti have fantastic CVs. Giggs like Robson doesn't have a managerial CV at all.
 

Alex99

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And he's done quite well. Not sure how this is even remotely relevant to how he would manage though.
You gave me a list of other managers that also played under Fergie at United and pointed out how they'd been less than great. Giggs played under Fergie for far longer than any of those other players, right from his professional debut to the season before his retirement. SAF is one of the best managers ever, and it's not exactly a far stretch to say that the 20 odd years Giggs spent working with him will have rubbed off on him a fair deal more than the comparatively few the others spent with him.
 

Jazz

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I fear they will never do that unless they are given a proper shot in management. The sense of entitlement they have to the club is amazing. You start wondering if they think that they own the place

It Kind of reminds me of the mammoni (ie how Italians call those adults who refuse to leave their parent's nest)
Exactly!
Well they can go and get a proper shot at management anywhere but at OT. Their behaviour really irritates me. I also don't think Ed is as enamoured of them as some think - Scholes has slagged him off a few times. Ed Woodward will not forget that. I would be shocked if that mob was allowed anywhere near OT as long as Ed is there.
 

devilish

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Agreed here. LVG is in no position (publicly at least) to go against SAF and the old guard.

The funny thing about SAF is that I believe a part of the problem is that he can't let go. It's understandable when you've had so much power for such a long time. This is blinding him. He probably sees Giggs as someone through whom he can maintain some modicum of power - completing bypassing whether or not he's suitable from a logical viewpoint. I love SAF, but he's risking bringing down the thing he built and loves. We partially went down already through Moyes - and still he doesn't seem to have learnt his lesson...
SAF's sentimentality had been an issue for the past few years. He kept players at the club who should have been offloaded long ago (Fletcher, Ando etc) and should have sorted CM instead of his nearly 40 year olds 'children'. Regarding LVG he is a continental manager. He would say anything just to reach his goals (ie winning) and if that means appeasing the old guard so be it.
 

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Exactly!
Well they can go and get a proper shot at management anywhere but at OT. Their behaviour really irritates me. I also don't think Ed is as enamoured of them as some think - Scholes has slagged him off a few times. Ed Woodward will not forget that. I would be shocked if that mob was allowed anywhere near OT as long as Ed is there.
Mob??

I'm out of this thread.
 

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You gave me a list of other managers that also played under Fergie at United and pointed out how they'd been less than great. Giggs played under Fergie for far longer than any of those other players, right from his professional debut to the season before his retirement. SAF is one of the best managers ever, and it's not exactly a far stretch to say that the 20 odd years Giggs spent working with him will have rubbed off on him a fair deal more than the comparatively few the others spent with him.
Well since there is no correlation between playing for him for 3 or 20 years relative to how they perform as future managers, I don't see it as a particularly relevant point. Each of the aforementioned has either perennially flopped or at a minimum not been successful, which calls into question why Giggs would be any different.
 

Alex99

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It's utterly bizarre.


Anyways, Pep goes to City, Klopp with the scouse, Jose at Chelsea, Ancelotti somewhere and we are stuck with this....
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/fo...oles-Neville-Butt-talking-tactics-United.html

Anyone who watches that clip, and says they are comfortable with that lot running things, are either lying or soft in the head
Wonderful. We're now making judgments based on a 30 second video clip filmed for a documentary whilst Giggs was acting as a caretaker manager, whilst still playing, at the end of our most disastrous season in literal decades.
 

Shamwow

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You gave me a list of other managers that also played under Fergie at United and pointed out how they'd been less than great. Giggs played under Fergie for far longer than any of those other players, right from his professional debut to the season before his retirement. SAF is one of the best managers ever, and it's not exactly a far stretch to say that the 20 odd years Giggs spent working with him will have rubbed off on him a fair deal more than the comparatively few the others spent with him.
One last thing before I leave. Giggs is a born winner. In that 20 odd years he has shown an ability to adapt and innovate which allowed him to stay at the top of his game longer than almost anyone. He has every chance of learning and developing enough in the 4 (potentially more) years that he's been the assistant. Let's see what the club decide anyway. I won't cry if he doesn't get the job, but I won't complain if he does.
 

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Revan

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Are you really trying to argue that La Liga and the Bundesliga are just as competitive at the top end as the Premier League in terms of the number of consistently good sides?

Over the last decade, the Premier League has seen 3 different winners, all of which lifted the title more than once. United have 5, City 2, and Chelsea 3. Many make City firm favourites for this season as well.

Over the last decade, La Liga has also seen 3 different winners. However, only 2 of those lifted the title more than once, with Barca lifting 6, Madrid 3, and Atletico 1. Atletico are certainly not favourites this season, that mantle lies with Barca.

Over the last decade, the Bundesliga has seen 4 different winners. Again, only 2 lifted the title more than once. Bayern have 6, Dortmund 2, Wolfsburg 1, and Stuttgart 1. Bayern are firm favourites to lift the title this season.

Additionally, the Premier League has had just 6 teams appear in the top 4 positions over the last decade, all managing to finish there more than once, and all but Spurs appearing 5 or more times. There are also 4 teams that finished in second over the last decade, 3 of which are the title winners, with the other being Liverpool who have finished there twice in the last decade.

La Liga has had 10 teams appear in their top 4 over the last decade, with 4 of them appearing there just once, and only 4 appearing 5 or more times. The only runner up aside from Madrid and Barca is Villarreal, and they managed that just once, appearing in the top four just twice.

The Bundesliga has had 11 teams appear in their top 4, with just 3 appearing 5 or more times. Of the 6 runners up over the last decade, only Bayern, Schalke and Leverkusen have finished in the top 4 positions 5 or more times in the last decade, and of them, Bayern are the only team to win the title. Of the others, Dortmund have featured in the top 4 on 4 occasions, 2 during title wins and 2 as runner up, Wolfsburg have featured twice, once as title winner and once as runner, and Werder Bremen have featured 4 times, with 2 runners up finishes as their best. Stuttgart, the other title winner, have only finished in the top 4 twice in the last decade.

Please continue to tell me how La Liga and Bundesliga are as or more competitive at the top end than the Premier League.

For what it's worth, a title challenger doesn't necessarily have to finish within a certain number of points of the winner, just remain close enough to keep them worried for a good two thirds of the season.
So, basically you are saying that the number of teams who won the league in the top 3 leagues is around the same. The number of teams who reach UCL in England is lower. That should mean that EPL is less competitive, right? Less teams doing well = less competitive.

Being within a certain numbers of points is the same as being close enough. Arsenal usually finish 10-15 points below the champion. How are they close enough when the only time they are in the first place is before the EPL starts (you know the forums how tend to think that they have a chance of winning the league and well, they start with A after all).

EPL is not competitive at all nowadays. Generally a team walks it, and that team gets embarrased in Europe, which means that they aren't that strong in the first place. Most likely City will walk it despite that won't reach the quarters of UCL (i.e not being one of the top 8 teams in Europe).
 

Alex99

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Well since there is no correlation between playing for him for 3 or 20 years relative to how they perform as future managers, I don't see it as a particularly relevant point. Each of the aforementioned has either perennially flopped or at a minimum not been successful, which calls into question why Giggs would be any different.
One the main things going for Giggs is the sheer amount of time he spent working with Fergie compared to other players who have since gone on to management, and that he's also spent his whole career at the club. If you're going to completely disregard those as factors then there's no point in discussing it.
 

.Rossi

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Wonderful. We're now making judgments based on a 30 second video clip filmed for a documentary whilst Giggs was acting as a caretaker manager, whilst still playing, at the end of our most disastrous season in literal decades.
OK then....

Give me reasons why, someone who has never been a manager and someone who wanted a shot Rio Ferdinand to be the main defender last year, should take control of a club with aspirations of winning everything.

Because I can give you about 100 as to why he shouldnt
 

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:lol: Fair play, Giggs is an unknown, any projection made with him is an highly inaccurate one. The last two times we acted like proper idiots, obviously we could do it a third time, United try to much to be cute with Moyes, LVG and now Giggs.
How do you mean? LVG was easily the best available choice.
 

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You gave me a list of other managers that also played under Fergie at United and pointed out how they'd been less than great. Giggs played under Fergie for far longer than any of those other players, right from his professional debut to the season before his retirement. SAF is one of the best managers ever, and it's not exactly a far stretch to say that the 20 odd years Giggs spent working with him will have rubbed off on him a fair deal more than the comparatively few the others spent with him.
I really don't get this "rubbed off" argument. The same argument has been made for countless other players. By the way, who did Fergie play under? The reason we don't know is because it had no bearing on his ability to manage other players.
 

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One the main things going for Giggs is the sheer amount of time he spent working with Fergie compared to other players who have since gone on to management, and that he's also spent his whole career at the club. If you're going to completely disregard those as factors then there's no point in discussing it.
It can't really be a legitimate factor though can it. The likes of Nev and Scholes also worked under Fergie for comparable periods and no one is making the case that they should manage United. Also, what on earth does longevity having played under SAF even mean in terms of managerial credentials ?
 

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How do you mean? LVG was easily the best available choice.
I'm unfair with LVG but I don't like the idea that we signed him because he was the "only" option, I think that we rushed ourselves because Tottenham were close to sign him.
 

devilish

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Exactly!
Well they can go and get a proper shot at management anywhere but at OT. Their behaviour really irritates me. I also don't think Ed is as enamoured of them as some think - Scholes has slagged him off a few times. Ed Woodward will not forget that. I would be shocked if that mob was allowed anywhere near OT as long as Ed is there.
Calling them mob is a bit too much. However I can't understand their sense of entitlement. Surely they won honours for the club but the club made them and paid them quite handsomely to do so. Players like Butt and Phil should be grateful to be at the club because they would have never won titles and CLs elsewhere
 

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Well, you have been advocating the pros of making Giggs as our new manager since the beginning of this thread. Sorry, for getting the impression that he's your top choice (or near it). I guess that you're playing the devil's advocate then.
I don't think Giggs should be our first choice manager as things stand, as I've made abundantly clear on several occasions, nor do I think there are excellent, rational arguments for appointing him. I do, however, think there are arguments beyond sheer romanticism - and that we, at the very least, have to consider the possibility that he is some sort of heir apparent (which makes the idea worthwhile to debate - rather than dismiss completely as many do).

My stance, if you're interested, is that we should always be willing to gamble. We should never go with the safe option just because it's the safe option. Why? Well, because I think it befits us. Because I like it. I don't need another reason. I have an idea about what United should be - risk taking is part of that idea.

But I don't particularly fancy Giggs - for several reasons. Call it gut feeling. I agree with those who have pointed out that even considered as a romantic notion, it looks like something forced and constructed: That isn't very romantic, actually.
 

Walrus

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From a strictly United "played under Fergie" model - we have the likes of Robson, Bruce, Strachan, Solskjaer, Keane, Hughes, Ince, Blanc etc as examples. Not exactly a glimmering list of success. Given such mediocrity, why on earth would Giggs be any different ?
This relates back to one of the earliest discussions I had in this thread, which can basically be summised as "Some managers will perform better with a big team than a small one."

Now dont get me wrong, I am not saying that all of those names that you listed are secretly great managers who were just never given their big break by a top club, but rather that when you talk about ex-United players, we are talking about players who were immersed in a club of United's stature (not in an arrogant "we are better" way). What I mean by this is that they were used to the strict regimes, the setup and the environment of a highly successful, title winning club. I think it is fair to say that as managers they would probably try to implement something similar at their clubs, and therein is the (potential) problem. Trying to coach a Sunderland to be title winners is probably a bit of a lost cause. The environment, the expectation and the job itself is very different.

Following on from that, it is for this reason that I believe that if Giggs went and spent 5 years at Aston Villa and was a great success, it would not prepare him or qualify him at all for the United job. Similarly, if Giggs went to Aston Villa and didnt perform particularly well, I wouldnt see that as a "See, its lucky we didnt give him the United job" situation - the scenarios are just too different to be comparable. He might as well go and manage a supermarket.


Fair enough. But again, like with some of the other alternatives, there are loads of presumptions involved here in terms of the longevity conjecture, evidenced by the ifs and highly possible arguments. The narrative of him continuing for 20 years sounds awesome, but surely you must agree with the fact that it's far from certain, instead of being highly possible? Who's to say Giggs won't turn out to be a one and done man like Johan Cruyff. He too had a deep history with Barcelona, he helped found La Masia in its current guise, he set the template for a system that survives to this day, he build the dream team as they were called, with Romario, Koeman, Stoichkov, Guardiola, Laudrup. And who's to say an outsider like Pep doesn't fall in love with the club, and decides to stay? Arsene Wenger for one isn't British, and one might've guessed he would have left Arsenal long ago, given the interest from Real Madrid among others. Yet here we are, and he's the second longest tenured manager in Premier League history after Fergie. I personally wouldn't call a 20 year stint highly possible when it's fraught with a million variables. And why don't the other candidates offer that in absolute terms? When as mentioned above, Wenger never evidenced the desire to drop deep roots at his previous club, yet he did so at Arsenal.
I get your point here, but we are just talking about probability. Of course there is no guarantee that even if he were a great success, Giggs would stick around for decade after decade. What we can say however is that he came up through the youth system, he loves the club and wouldnt have any particular reason to move on.

With regard to your "what if Guardiola fell in love with the club?" point - again, its just about probability. Guardiola was brought up at Barca and managed a great team there - I just cant see why he would fall in love with United and stay here for a longer time than he did at his boyhood club, where he was highly successful anyway.

I take your point though, that it isnt as simple as "If Giggs does well, he is here for life." - but he certainly has a higher chance of that than an external candidate I think it is fair to say.

And honestly, I don't like the arguments about knowing the club in the slightest. What does that even imply, does it take decades to learn about how a club functions? Are Pep and Ancelotti idiots who can't fathom how work their way around things? Or about its decade long history and association? Eric Cantona for one is a passionate United man through and through, and he was here for just 5 seasons, with no previous links whatsoever. Is he any less of United man? Great managers can grasp things on the fly. I'm pretty sure someone like a Guardiola would immerse himself from the get go, and know everything there is to know about the club in a couple of seasons at max. So is Giggs' continued presence that big of an advantage? And while Pep, Ancelotti and Mourinho have chinks in their CV, they are far, far superior to Giggs when it comes to their overall resume, aside from the tangential stuff like understanding the club and whatnot. What's so special about the United situation really, in objective terms?
When I talk about understanding the club, I more mean understanding what it is to be the manager at United. The responsibilities, the expectations, the day to day managerial duties etc. He has seen Ferguson and LVG doing it, and has had a crash course in "what not to do" under Moyes. Whether Giggs can make the step up and replicate that sort of success is unknown, but he has been given the tools and the knowledge to maximise his chances of doing so, and those inside the club seem to believe that he can.

This is less a "Giggs has this advantage over xyz" argument as rather that that knowledge and understanding (in my opinion) helps to make up for his lack of experience. You mention "is it about commanding respect" for instance - the point is that Giggs would indeed command respect at United, regardless of his inexperience.


How is Giggs only slightly more risky when compared with managers like that, who have proven it at the highest level possible, and Giggs is just an assistant manager with a managerial record spanning 4 caretaker games? The United managerial post is just another top, top job from an objective standpoint, we're not super special. Every big club has traditions, every big club has expectations, every big club has a great history, and those managers are well equipped to deal with that.
Dont get me wrong here, if we appoint Guardiola after LVG then I am not going to be putting myself on suicide watch or standing outside Old Trafford on a soapbox preaching that the end days are nigh. My view is that LVG was only ever a short term solution, and that his role is to prepare the team and the club itself for the next person - which I think will be Giggs. I think that if LVG's tenure is relatively successful then the club will consider appointing Giggs as the best option for a seamless transition, continuity etc, as someone who can take the team and philosophy that LVG has implemented, and take that to the next level in the same way that Guardiola did at Barca.

As @Roboc7 pointed out - if we were planning on appointing one of the touted names, why didnt we just go for Klopp or Ancelotti this summer? Why dont we approach Guardiola now? Is there really a major benefit to letting LVG see out his contract if we are then going to just bring someone else in who will start afresh and rebuild it all again anyway?
 

JPRouve

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As @Roboc7 pointed out - if we were planning on appointing one of the touted names, why didnt we just go for Klopp or Ancelotti this summer? Why dont we approach Guardiola now? Is there really a major benefit to letting LVG see out his contract if we are then going to just bring someone else in who will start afresh and rebuild it all again anyway?
Because we don't expect a new rebuilding, why Guardiola, Klopp or Ancelotti rebuild? LVG is in charge of the rebuilding is successor will be in charge of the exploiting. Where I agree though is that if we feel that LVG has finished his rebuilding job, which I think he did, then we should bring someone else.
 

bosnian_red

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@Walrus it paints a pretty bad pictures fa the club if we sacked Van gaal even though he's done a decent job just because someone else was available. United give managers time, we don't change them just because someone else is available. We gave him the contract, and as long as he's meeting objectives he'll remain in charge as it should be. Of course we'd all love to have klopp, but it didn't pan out that way.
 

Walrus

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I feel that Mourinho fell into the trap of losing the dressing room early in the season. That's a killer irrespective if you're Mourinho, Moyes, Capello or Giggs. Even SAF found it extremely difficult to keep the players motivated when they believed that he was retiring (the first retirement), in matter of fact he kept it under wraps to the last possible moment to avoid a similar situation. Football management at top level is a complex issue and can trip even the best. Imagine what it would do to someone with just 4 games of management under his belt
You are quite right. My comment here is that Giggs has learnt from the best, and dealing with those sorts of situation is precisely the sort of thing I would hope he has picked up on from SAF and LVG.

What he probably doesn't realize is that Ditka's success was largely predicated on the amazing 46 defense with Dent, Singletary, Hampton - which was ultimately Buddy Ryan's brainchild, and he had lucked into an all-time running game to go with the defense in Payton. We don't have a genius coordinator in the waiting to shape the way the team plays. Everyone saw exactly how great Ditka was at NO when he had to do it all by himself, this clown traded away the entire draft, and the #1 pick from the next season for Ricky Williams.
How the feck do you know all this stuff?

Agreed here. LVG is in no position (publicly at least) to go against SAF and the old guard.

The funny thing about SAF is that I believe a part of the problem is that he can't let go. It's understandable when you've had so much power for such a long time. This is blinding him. He probably sees Giggs as someone through whom he can maintain some modicum of power - completing bypassing whether or not he's suitable from a logical viewpoint. I love SAF, but he's risking bringing down the thing he built and loves. We partially went down already through Moyes - and still he doesn't seem to have learnt his lesson...
Seriously some of you guys need to get over the whole Moyes debacle. Ferguson recommended Moyes, and was wrong. OK, lets move on, instead of using it as an apparently infallible reason to reject any sort of future suggestion or recommendation he ever gives. You would think he had earnt a bit more respect than that.

FWIW I dont think SAF is trying to still be the invisible hand steering the ship. SAF is by no means perfect, I have often criticised him myself, but your comments here are just over the top.


If Anderson was the main man behind United winning those trophies, then yes.

You can find 'contras' against every top manager (yes, even against Fergie) and then point out that every manager isn't as one of the best managers of all time. Mourinho and Pep are accepted as so, by the majority of football fans and experts.
I am not so sure that the majority of football fans would list those two as "GOAT" material, not yet at least.
Your argument was that their trophy haul justifies that status, my response was to illustrate how trophy count is not the be-all and end-all, especially with managers.

I don't believe that. Appointing Giggs is irrational. I don't expect you then to become rational.
With the greatest respect, I dont really give a shit whether you believe it or not.



The director of football is the way to go, no ifs and buts. Ed is already having many competences that a director of football have. It depends a lot if we will make a formal appointment for a director of football (like Barca and Bayern do) or Ed will play that role (like Chelsea and Madrid * do). Still, the chances of having an all powerful manager are low. And to be fair, I am happy for that.
I would be all for a DoF setup, but I dont think that realistically that is going to happen. Woodward would not be suitable for that role - the DoF should be a football person who can orchestrate the long term planning for the football side of the club. Woodward is a businessman who is great at securing sponsorship deals, but not a DoF. The fact that Woodward exists in his current role if anything is a negative to the whole DoF setup, as we would need to either sack Woody or reduce his responsibilities (as the DoF would deal with transfers etc)


Every manager has flaws. Fergie won only 2 UCL in 20+ years despite that he had the continuity and the resources. He went in the beginning 5 years without winning the league and at the height of his power, went three years without winning the league. Similarily Mourinho has flaws. And Guardiola.

But saying that appointing Mourinho/Guardiola/Ancelotti is not less risky than appointing Giggsy, is worse than saying that appoiting Fergie in '86 wasn't less risky than appointing Robson. Fergie back then had a very good CV, Mourinho, Guardiola and Ancelotti have fantastic CVs. Giggs like Robson doesn't have a managerial CV at all.
Well neither of us will be making the decision. People with far more experience in risk analysis will be evaluating the situation and making the judgement. In my opinion, Giggs is not a much greater risk than the other names mentioned. I have given my reasoning behind it, it isnt just a conclusion I have conjured out of thin air.


Mob??

I'm out of this thread.

I know the feeling. I am certainly not trying to get all "t*p red" on anyone but some of the comments in here and in the Klopp at Liverpool thread, I really start to wonder which team they actually support.
 

Walrus

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Because we don't expect a new rebuilding, why Guardiola, Klopp or Ancelotti rebuild? LVG is in charge of the rebuilding is successor will be in charge of the exploiting. Where I agree though is that if we feel that LVG has finished his rebuilding job, which I think he did, then we should bring someone else.
They will want to implement their own formation/system/philosophy. Their own training methods, their own backroom staff. Key changes to the players.

The extent of the transition would depend on the manager, without a DoF setup, there will definitely be a transitional period.


@Walrus it paints a pretty bad pictures fa the club if we sacked Van gaal even though he's done a decent job just because someone else was available. United give managers time, we don't change them just because someone else is available. We gave him the contract, and as long as he's meeting objectives he'll remain in charge as it should be. Of course we'd all love to have klopp, but it didn't pan out that way.
So then we are arguably keeping him out of sentimentality?
 
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