The Argument for Giggs as our Next Manager

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Walrus

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I have two (well, three really) questions I want to pose to @Jazz and the "There is no logical reason for the appointment" brigade;

1) Do you agree that the Glazer's, as businessmen, are not going to make a managerial appointment based on romanticism and sentimentality, but rather on logic and who they deem best for the job?

2) Do you agree that there is a very real possibility that Giggs will be the next manager, based on the noises coming out of the club, from key people etc? (Note: This is not asking whether you want Giggs, but whether it is a realistic possibility considering all the statements from LVG, Ferguson etc)

Now, if you have answered "Yes" to both of those questions - is it not then fair to say that there must be some merit, and some actual logical reasons behind the Giggs appointment, such as those that have been suggested in this thread, and that whether you agree with those reasons or not, it is at least a discussion worth having?
 

Rory 7

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Rory - innovators on the pitch - not in making stupid business decisions that would have huge consequences. We don't need to put ourselves in such a position - so why do it. It's like you know a train is coming, but you still step on the line, knowing if it comes you're bloody brown bread, but still you do it. You're arguments are just not realistic.
Your position is very conservative and ultra-risk averse. And moreover I don't see how an insider taking over is that risky. Better the red-devil you know I say. Look what happened the last time we appointed an outsider. I honestly am thinking of LVG as a short term appointment before Giggs takes over. The Moyes experience should teach us to stick to who we know.
 

JPRouve

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Because LVG came in for the short term, in theory if giggs takes over there should be some continuity. If giggs isn't going to take over then what is the point in LVG staying for another season, why let him spend more money and keep rebuilding if he is retiring at the end of next season because a new manager could want to make lots more changes again and it's just more transition.
I'm sorry to be blunt but that's a very stupid point and the worst thing is that it seems that some decision makers are as stupid as that point. When you hire someone and when you have the luxury of the choice, you chose someone that suits you, someone who see things like you do. There is plenty of managers who will be perfectly comfortable with that roster and who will play a style that suits these players.
 

Jazz

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Because LVG came in for the short term, in theory if giggs takes over there should be some continuity. If giggs isn't going to take over then what is the point in LVG staying for another season, why let him spend more money and keep rebuilding if he is retiring at the end of next season because a new manager could want to make lots more changes again and it's just more transition.
My understanding of LVG's appointment is that structures will be put into place, that I believe will make future transitions easier, unlike what happened when SAF left. We would therefore not need a huge transition going forward if you have a basic structure in place that doesn't depend on it working on account of the genius of one man. A new coach can therefore come in and build on this. It doesn't mean he has to stick with the same type of football.
 

Roboc7

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I'm sorry to be blunt but that's a very stupid point and the worst thing is that it seems that some decision makers are as stupid as that point. When you hire someone and when you have the luxury of the choice, you chose someone that suits you, someone who see things like you do. There is plenty of managers who will be perfectly comfortable with that roster and who will play a style that suits these players.
It's not a stupid point if they appointed someone knowing when he will step leave which virtually hardly ever happens, they need a succession plan in place and best way to do that is to have someone already the club. Who knows what mangers will be available at the end of next season, whose stock will have fallen etc.

I think assuming we can get someone of the highest calibre who is available and sees things as LVG does isn't exactly a fool prof plan so there is no easy answer in this scenario, we could easily end up with a manager who comes in and wants to make lots of changes whether we really want that or not.
 

Jazz

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I have two (well, three really) questions I want to pose to @Jazz and the "There is no logical reason for the appointment" brigade;

1) Do you agree that the Glazer's, as businessmen, are not going to make a managerial appointment based on romanticism and sentimentality, but rather on logic and who they deem best for the job?

2) Do you agree that there is a very real possibility that Giggs will be the next manager, based on the noises coming out of the club, from key people etc? (Note: This is not asking whether you want Giggs, but whether it is a realistic possibility considering all the statements from LVG, Ferguson etc)

Now, if you have answered "Yes" to both of those questions - is it not then fair to say that there must be some merit, and some actual logical reasons behind the Giggs appointment, such as those that have been suggested in this thread, and that whether you agree with those reasons or not, it is at least a discussion worth having?
To your first question - no - I don't believe the Glazers will appoint someone based on romance and sentiment. They are certainly not so inclined. Before you say anything about Moyes - that appointment was probably more to appease SAF, thinking that such a successful manager cannot be making such a huge mistake. It was a funny time, and SAF's sheer force of personality would have pushed that through. You make a mistake once, but those kinds of people are not going to be easily convinced this time around to repeat that mistake - not when so much money and huge sponsorship deals are at stake. Don't underestimate the power of money Walrus...

Second question - unlike with the Moyes rumours which we heard from various media sources for a few years before it happened - this time around - the few media people who comment on this are saying 'Giggs should be the next manager' - not being as confident as they were about Moyes getting it.
Furthermore, if it were such a sure thing - SAF & CO92 would be more positive than the hopeful tones they speak of about this. I suspect a lot of their narrative is because they face resistance from Ed Woodward on this appointment.

Lastly the only key person out of the club whose statements matter is Ed Woodward. Everyone else can say what they want or wish - but he's the man to listen to. At the moment - he's silent.
 

Revan

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"Best managers of all time"? I think I can throw your "deluded" comment right back at you there.

Guardiola took over a Barca team that already featured some of the best players in the world and one of the GOAT, in a fairly non-competitive league. He took that team up a level, but realistically I dont think anyone could call Barcelona a hard job when he took over. He enjoyed great success, and then burned out (a concern when thinking about the intensity of the PL), before joining Bayern - another great side, second only to Barca themselves in Europe. Again, not a hard job if we are being honest.
Guardiola has not had to build a team, he has not had to transition a a team or plan for the long term. His managerial record so far is purely one of joining a highly successful team, and continuing that success. He is largely unproven in pretty much all other areas, and there is the concern about him "burning out".

Ancelotti? Most of his success in recent years has come in clubs where he has been very much a short term appointment, and purely been required to deliver instant success while being given almost a blank chequebook. He hasnt lasted more than 3 years at a single club since 2009 (I believe).

Mourinho is much the same in that since Porto, his only jobs have been short term positions with a practically unlimited budget.
Guardiola has the best trophy to years ratio in the history of football. Add to that, he made an underperforming team into the best team ever, while also popularized his brand of football. He is easily in top 10.

Mourinho is the only manager in Europe who has won the league title in 4 countries. With 8 league titles and 2 UCL he is already approaching SAF-type of legacy. Again, easily in top 10.

Ancelotti has won more UCL trophies than any other manager ever. He has won league titles in three different countries. Maybe he is a bit below Pep/Jose, but not much.

You may argue "But Walrus, I dont care if we have short term appointments and spend lots of money, I just want trophies NOW at any cost!!!1" in which case I would suggest Man City or Chelsea would be a better club for you. I dont want to delve too deep into all the "losing our identity" stuff here, its more simply to illustrate that none of these so-called "best of all time" managers have really been tested recently, or sought out a challenge themselves, or handled any sort of long term approach. Hell, Mourinho is suffering his classic third season syndrome currently with Chelsea and looks like a fish out of water when (finally) faced with a bit of adversity, and generally when leaving clubs he leaves a big old mess for the next guy to have to clean up. Is that someone I want at United? Not really.
United hasn't ever been about making long term appointments. Neither Sir Matt, neither Sir Alex were United legends when they came here. Neither of them got 25 years contracts when they came here. Neither of them were chosen to come here cause they would stay here for 25 years. Neither of them would have stayed here 25 years if they didn't deserve so. Neither of them got the job on nepotism.

United has always been for playing good football and winning trophies. Sir Matt said something like 'we should play good for the fans cause after a week of hard work, United is the only thing that gives them enjoyement'.

Ultimatelly, in a fast changing world, history is completely irrelevant. Doing a Liverpool or Milano isn't unimaginable. We haven't won anything in 3 years, and that 3 can easily become 10 if we make a series of bad decisions.

I also explained that there really isn't a correlation between longivity and success + good football. And I can also make a similar argument to you: if you don't like trophies but like to have a manager for a few decades, go support Arsenal. We at United, like trophies.

As I have said from the start - every appointment is a risk. The only person who is truly qualified for the United job is Ferguson, and even he would be a risk (outdated methods blah blah blah). Failing that, the next best person for me might as well be the one who has already been in the club, seen successful managers first hand and how they approached the job, and the various situations that came with it. A person who is being groomed for the position as we speak by a manager who is very serious about philosophy and structure, and who has stated that they are building a team for the next manager. If Giggs shows himself to not be up to the task, then he will be sacked, just like anyone else would be.
Of course every appointment is a risk. How much a risk it is though? Apple getting Larry Page or Bill Gates as new CEO (I know that it is impossible, but for the sake argument) is less a risk then them appointing a guy who was a great coder and then spent two years as Steve Jobs adviser.

Similarily, Mourinho or Pep can fail. However from their CV, chances of them failing (or at least miserably failing) are very low. They have won trophies in every team they managed, they are already legendary managers. Comparing them to Giggsy whose biggest managerial decision has been what types of powerpoint slides to use for the weekly presentation, is nonsese. Obviously, I exagerated a bit here, but his CV is relatively blank compared with the three managers we made.

In the end, United isn't more special than any other top club. Neither the United job is more difficult than the job of Madrid or Barca. Every manager that is a success in other top clubs, have a relatively high chance of becoming a success here (vice versa too).
 

Roboc7

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My understanding of LVG's appointment is that structures will be put into place, that I believe will make future transitions easier, unlike what happened when SAF left. We would therefore not need a huge transition going forward if you have a basic structure in place that doesn't depend on it working on account of the genius of one man. A new coach can therefore come in and build on this. It doesn't mean he has to stick with the same type of football.
And part of that structure might be grooming his successor, the last time we two times we have looked for a manger have probably didn't result in us getting our number one choices so the board may have put something in place to have more control. I am not saying it is the right decisions but there is logic as to why giggs might be the next manager I think my original point is clearly valid whether people like it or not.
 

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Having the likes of Lendl and Ditka even mentioned here. There is no comparison to be made, especially as both are from different sports, in different countries, and from different generations.
I fail to see why? I was merely disproving the esrlier posters point about athletes never making it as coaches. Which I succeeded in proving.
 

JPRouve

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It's not a stupid point if they appointed someone knowing when he will step leave which virtually hardly ever happens, they need a succession plan in place and best way to do that is to have someone already the club. Who knows what mangers will be available at the end of next season, whose stock will have fallen etc.

I think assuming we can get someone of the highest calibre who is available and sees things as LVG does isn't exactly a fool prof plan so there is no easy answer in this scenario, we could easily end up with a manager who comes in and wants to make lots of changes whether we really want that or not.
That's my point, no we couldn't end up with that type of manager, the club will always have the last word, if he intends to make lots of changes, he can gets stuffed. And it's fairly rare to see managers doing that, at least not on the continent.

If the club wants continuity he should hire a DOF, farming managers isn't a thing.
 

Jazz

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Your position is very conservative and ultra-risk averse. And moreover I don't see how an insider taking over is that risky. Better the red-devil you know I say. Look what happened the last time we appointed an outsider. I honestly am thinking of LVG as a short term appointment before Giggs takes over. The Moyes experience should teach us to stick to who we know.
It is risky because he doesn't have the necessary credentials - it doesn't matter if he's an 'insider'. Should my company appoint me to the job as CEO because I'm an insider when I haven't got the qualifications to do the job??

And the Moyes example should have taught us not to hire people who are unsuitable for the job.
 

Revan

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That's my point, no we couldn't end up with that type of manager, the club will always have the last word, if he intends to make lots of changes, he can gets stuffed. And it's fairly rare to see managers doing that, at least not on the continent.

If the club wants continuity he should hire a DOF, farming managers isn't a thing.
Eureka!
 

Raoul

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Where's all this "top athletes don't make good managers" shit come from? It's not a guarantee, but have you lot even taken a step back and seen the names you're all reeling off?

Pep Guardiola won 6 La Ligas, 2 Copa del Reys, 1 Champions League, 1 Cup Winners Cup and 2 Super Cups in a Barca career lasting over a decade, as well as being capped nearly 50 times for Spain.

Carlo Ancelotti won 3 Serie As, 4 Coppa Italias, 2 European Cups, 2 Intercontinental Cups, and reached another European Cup final in a playing career in Italy lasting over a decade, as well as winning over 25 caps for Italy, even being part of the squad that came 3rd in the 1990 World Cup.

Diego Simeone won 1 La Liga, 1 Copa del Rey, 1 UEFA Cup, 1 Super Cup, 1 Serie A and 1 Coppa Italia in a playing career lasting almost two decades, as well as winning over 100 caps for Argentina, winning 2 Copa Americas, 1 Confederations Cup and representing them in 3 World Cups.

Frank de Boer was mentioned in another thread, and he won 5 Eredevisies, 2 KNVB Cups, 1 Champions League, 1 UEFA Cup, 1 Super Cup, 1 Intercontinental Cup and 1 La Liga in a career lasting almost two decades, as well as being the most capped Dutch outfield player in history, captaining the team to the semis of both the 1998 World Cup and Euro 2000.

The only one of the commonly touted names that didn't have an illustrious playing career is Mourinho.



Manchester United have been title contenders pretty much every year since the inception of the Premier League, and I include the current season in that. Manchester City are now very much title contenders, if not title favourites for this season. Arsenal are certainly title contenders this season, and have been for a number of previous seasons having not finished outside of the CL places in absolute yonks. Chelsea are, and have been, title contenders fairly consistently for over a decade now. The only teams consistently gunning for titles and CL places in Spain are Real Madrid and Barcelona. The only team consistently gunning for titles in Germany is Bayern Munich. This isn't an opinion, this is a simple fact. 4 is more than 2, and 4 is more than 1, hence, there are more title contending teams in the Premier League than in Spain or Germany.
From a strictly United "played under Fergie" model - we have the likes of Robson, Bruce, Strachan, Solskjaer, Keane, Hughes, Ince, Blanc etc as examples. Not exactly a glimmering list of success. Given such mediocrity, why on earth would Giggs be any different ?
 

Roboc7

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That's my point, no we couldn't end up with that type of manager, the club will always have the last word, if he intends to make lots of changes, he can gets stuffed. And it's fairly rare to see managers doing that, at least not on the continent.

If the club wants continuity he should hire a DOF, farming managers isn't a thing.
We could though because we might not get our first, second, third choice etc and managers like doing things their own way. It's not easy to just go and get someone who seamlessly takes over from LVG, if you have a DOF or similar then it is easier but we don't so that's irrelevant.
 

Raoul

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I fail to see why? I was merely disproving the esrlier posters point about athletes never making it as coaches. Which I succeeded in proving.
The point is not particularly applicable to the current discussion though, as football today in the Prem, in the Sugar Daddy era is different than Mike Ditka taking over the Bears in the 80s. Different sport, different context, different requirements, and thus lights years apart in terms of a legitimate comparison.
 

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How do you know Giggs isn't an exception? I do understand why people doubt him, but to discount him totally is as bad as saying he will be next Guardiola or such. When you look at Keane, or Robson, yes they were more influential as a player and better captain, but that's all they have. The romance behind Giggs appointment is somewhat totally different. Other than his uniqueness of epitomizing our club values and culture, he is also intelligent and adaptive (reinvent himself from time to tim, evolving into different roles throughout his career), a true winner and manage himself very well over past 20 years (playing at top level from 17 to 37, keep winning trophies), and very discipline on field (never get sent off in our shirt, not even once, over his 20 years long career, which shows his maturity over others). Name me another player who has those traits, I bet there just isn't any. Whether he could translate those qualties into management remain to be seen. But he is a very different case to other players you've mentioned.
You are absolutely right that I don't know. The trouble is that I don't think anyone else knows either. And I don't see why the richest club in the world should be taking such huge risks when we can throw a load of money at a proven elite manager like Guardiola or Ancelotti instead.
 

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The "rewards" I was speaking of were that if Giggs succeeds then it is highly possible that we have our manager sorted for the next 20+ years. No other candidate can offer that. Furthermore, the story and romanticism of one of our own doing it, would make that success all the sweeter.
This isnt to say that trophies would be bittersweet under another manager, and it isnt to say that they should make me manager because I could be there for 50 years. I am just talking about risk:reward. For me, the risk with Giggs is not much (if at all) greater than other candidates - @Alex99 made a good post on that with some arguments I have made previously, that even the top tier managers like Pep, Ancelotti and Mourinho all have potential gaps in their CV, and have not managed a situation quite like United before. Nor has Giggs of course, but he has been in and around the club for a long time and understands what has to be done on a day to day basis, understands the expectations, understands the club etc.
Fair enough. But again, like with some of the other alternatives, there are loads of presumptions involved here in terms of the longevity conjecture, evidenced by the ifs and highly possible arguments. The narrative of him continuing for 20 years sounds awesome, but surely you must agree with the fact that it's far from certain, instead of being highly possible? Who's to say Giggs won't turn out to be a one and done man like Johan Cruyff. He too had a deep history with Barcelona, he helped found La Masia in its current guise, he set the template for a system that survives to this day, he build the dream team as they were called, with Romario, Koeman, Stoichkov, Guardiola, Laudrup. And who's to say an outsider like Pep doesn't fall in love with the club, and decides to stay? Arsene Wenger for one isn't British, and one might've guessed he would have left Arsenal long ago, given the interest from Real Madrid among others. Yet here we are, and he's the second longest tenured manager in Premier League history after Fergie. I personally wouldn't call a 20 year stint highly possible when it's fraught with a million variables. And why don't the other candidates offer that in absolute terms? When as mentioned above, Wenger never evidenced the desire to drop deep roots at his previous club, yet he did so at Arsenal.

And honestly, I don't like the arguments about knowing the club in the slightest. What does that even imply, does it take decades to learn about how a club functions? Are Pep and Ancelotti idiots who can't fathom how work their way around things? Or about its decade long history and association? Eric Cantona for one is a passionate United man through and through, and he was here for just 5 seasons, with no previous links whatsoever. Is he any less of United man? Great managers can grasp things on the fly. I'm pretty sure someone like a Guardiola would immerse himself from the get go, and know everything there is to know about the club in a couple of seasons at max. So is Giggs' continued presence that big of an advantage? And while Pep, Ancelotti and Mourinho have chinks in their CV, they are far, far superior to Giggs when it comes to their overall resume, aside from the tangential stuff like understanding the club and whatnot. What's so special about the United situation really, in objective terms?

Is it the weight of expectations? Because Pep managed at Barcelona, and is managing Bayern Munich. Those aren't minnows compared to United. Ancelotti managed Milan and Juventus, two of the greatest football clubs ever, with massive legacies to live up to. As well as Real Madrid.

Is it about traditions? Because believe it or not, those clubs have their traditions too. United aren't unique when one casts off fan bias aside. And we don't have a tradition of managerial longevity either. Two anomalies over over a dozen doth not a tradition make. We promote youth? So do Barcelona and Bayern Munich. We have a history of success? So do Real Madrid, Milan and Juventus. We want to lay attractive football? So do most big clubs.

Is it about commanding the respect of players? Because Ancelotti has managed Zidane, Inzaghi, Del Piero, Conte, Davids, Kaka, Rui Costa, Maldini, Pirlo, Costacurta, Shevchenko, Ballack, Lampard, Terry, Cole, Ibrahimovic, Thiago, Ronaldo, Benzema - and almost none of them have a bad word to say about the man. Would he not command the repsect of whatever players United have? When in fact he did so with Ballon Do'Or winners, World Cup winners, European Championship winners, multiple Champions League winners?

Is it about managing a squad in transition? Because despite the narrative of Guardiola being a squad even a numpty could manage, they were an organisational mess on multiple levels. He had to get rid of Ronaldinho and Deco in the first season, he had to assimilate Henry in the team, then he had to let go of Eto'o and Henry, while transitioning Messi into a false 9 role, and bringing along the likes of Busquets (criticized to the hilt in the beginning, was about to join Juventus at one point), Pedro and the likes. He has evidenced the ability to handle transitions, as great as Barcelona were. And he showed the ability to take them to a level than surpassed even Cruyff's Dream Team. That's a massive, massive accomplishment. Similar for Ancelotti. Milan weren't some all conquering juggernaut when he took charge. They had changed 3 managers in just one season, were lagging far behind Juventus. He had to assimilate the newly bought Inzaghi, Pirlo, Nesta, Seedorf into the team, while promoting young players like Kaka over Rui Costa, and raising the performances of above average players like Kaladze, Tomasson, Pancaro, Dida. And he won them the Champions League in less than 30 months since his appointment. Similar with Mourinho who took an imperfect Porto team to a UEFA Cup and Champions League title in consecutive seasons.

How is Giggs only slightly more risky when compared with managers like that, who have proven it at the highest level possible, and Giggs is just an assistant manager with a managerial record spanning 4 caretaker games? The United managerial post is just another top, top job from an objective standpoint, we're not super special. Every big club has traditions, every big club has expectations, every big club has a great history, and those managers are well equipped to deal with that.
 

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How do you know Giggs isn't an exception? I do understand why people doubt him, but to discount him totally is as bad as saying he will be next Guardiola or such. When you look at Keane, or Robson, yes they were more influential as a player and better captain, but that's all they have. The romance behind Giggs appointment is somewhat totally different. Other than his uniqueness of epitomizing our club values and culture, he is also intelligent and adaptive (reinvent himself from time to tim, evolving into different roles throughout his career), a true winner and manage himself very well over past 20 years (playing at top level from 17 to 37, keep winning trophies), and very discipline on field (never get sent off in our shirt, not even once, over his 20 years long career, which shows his maturity over others). Name me another player who has those traits, I bet there just isn't any. Whether he could translate those qualties into management remain to be seen. But he is a very different case to other players you've mentioned.
How many ex United players are top coaches in the Guardiola, Klopp, Simeone, Mourinho mold ?
 

siw2007

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This is a really difficult one. I would love to have Giggs as a manager and for him to be a success, but I think come the start of the season I would be very nervous with him at the helm as opposed to a Guardiola or an Ancelotti, where I would be rather optimistic.

LVG has said that Giggs does have a huge part to play in how we set up against certain opponents. He has on record said that Giggs compiles the reports and has a say in our tactics in games, in which he has impressed massively (though this could be a media spin by United). He will have no problems with controlling the dressing room as the players will have the utmost respect for the man. He is an intelligent man who can use his years of experience and knowledge about how to play in the premier league where perhaps other top managers aren't as equipped.

However, I would be worried if he brought his Class of 92 buddies into the mix. It would bring unwanted media attention and could potentially turn into a circus act if things don't go right. Also, no one knows how he is going to get Man United to play, is he going to blend LVG's technical and tactical style with traditional United values or is he going to revert to the original way and maybe the only way he knows. We made this mistake once with Moyes and we'd be damned if we do it again. I think sometimes you need a big personality in order to manage the best players and wonder if he has that strength to do that.

I'm pretty sure the club have already decided that he is to be the next manager, as it has been hinted at a few times. I would prefer a more established manager to take over as our position in the top 4 is not guaranteed in this current climate.
 

devilish

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Kinell, I leave the thread for an hour and I have some 100 new messages to come back to.

Giggs isnt their manager (yet) though. Whichever way we paint it, existing close relationships with a coaching setup that has vast experience and has delivered success, is a good thing. And they have not just delivered success, they have delivered it at United. Basically "continuity" -
Still, if they trust him, they move with him or at least return if he returns to United. Also what makes you think that the coaching staff can deliver honours without LVG? We've seen what SAF's star studded staff (Queroz, Kidd, Mclaren, Rene) had achieved without the big man. Continuity is not key to success. If that's the case the likes of Ancelotti and Mourinho would never win.

The "rewards" I was speaking of were that if Giggs succeeds then it is highly possible that we have our manager sorted for the next 20+ years. No other candidate can offer that. Furthermore, the story and romanticism of one of our own doing it, would make that success all the sweeter.
This isnt to say that trophies would be bittersweet under another manager, and it isnt to say that they should make me manager because I could be there for 50 years. I am just talking about risk:reward. For me, the risk with Giggs is not much (if at all) greater than other candidates - @Alex99 made a good post on that with some arguments I have made previously, that even the top tier managers like Pep, Ancelotti and Mourinho all have potential gaps in their CV, and have not managed a situation quite like United before. Nor has Giggs of course, but he has been in and around the club for a long time and understands what has to be done on a day to day basis, understands the expectations, understands the club etc.
First of all, that can be achieved if Giggs moves on, earn his spurs and return. I am not against Giggs returning as manager if he earns his chance. What I am against is the decision of handling him the role out of pure nepotism. Secondly the loyalty thing at managerial level is a fable. Even the great SAF (United way, loyalty and all) was very close to the club at least twice before he actually did. Surely we both agree that SAF has as much loyalty to the club as Giggs did. Third if you take SAF's out of the equation most of the managers get outdated and complacent if they overstay at the club. Sometimes a change in air will do them well, and they go on winning somewhere else (Capello after his second stint at AC Milan), sometimes it doesn't. However the last thing you want is a manager overstaying with the club owing them too much to show them the door (ex Wenger at Arsenal, Busby at United, Clough at Forest). We're talking here about absolute giants in terms of management not Ryan Giggs
 

JPRouve

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We could though because we might not get our first, second, third choice etc and managers like doing things their own way. It's not easy to just go and get someone who seamlessly takes over from LVG, if you have a DOF or similar then it is easier but we don't so that's irrelevant.
It's totally relevant we are in Scifi thread, as for the first part, not if we show an ounce of competence if we see a coach that we like we should sign him even if it means firing LVG.
 

Raoul

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This is a really difficult one. I would love to have Giggs as a manager and for him to be a success, but I think come the start of the season I would be very nervous with him at the helm as opposed to a Guardiola or an Ancelotti, where I would be rather optimistic.

LVG has said that Giggs does have a huge part to play in how we set up against certain opponents. He has on record said that Giggs compiles the reports and has a say in our tactics in games, in which he has impressed massively (though this could be a media spin by United). He will have no problems with controlling the dressing room as the players will have the utmost respect for the man. He is an intelligent man who can use his years of experience and knowledge about how to play in the premier league where perhaps other top managers aren't as equipped.

However, I would be worried if he brought his Class of 92 buddies into the mix. It would bring unwanted media attention and could potentially turn into a circus act if things don't go right. Also, no one knows how he is going to get Man United to play, is he going to blend LVG's technical and tactical style with traditional United values or is he going to revert to the original way and maybe the only way he knows. We made this mistake once with Moyes and we'd be damned if we do it again. I think sometimes you need a big personality in order to manage the best players and wonder if he has that strength to do that.

I'm pretty sure the club have already decided that he is to be the next manager, as it has been hinted at a few times. I would prefer a more established manager to take over as our position in the top 4 is not guaranteed in this current climate.
This is the fundamental problem with appointing him imo. He has zero qualifications and as such, would be on a very tight leash from the supporters if he flopped out of the gates, whereas an experienced manager with a track record of winning leagues and CLs elsewhere, would be granted significantly longer rope.
 

Revan

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From a strictly United "played under Fergie" model - we have the likes of Robson, Bruce, Strachan, Solskjaer, Keane, Hughes, Ince, Blanc etc as examples. Not exactly a glimmering list of success. Given such mediocrity, why on earth would Giggs be any different ?
And all the bolded ones were mentioned as future United managers. Bar Blanc, all have shown to be failures at that job. The unbolded ones have shown to be failures too, but don't remember them getting mentioned as future United managers. JohnoWhite 'the manc' at RAWK wants Bruce as our manager though. Bless him!
 

MoskvaRed

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It goes to show that just sticking managers in bands of suitability based on their records is massively oversimplifying things because Klopp and Fergie shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence. It would have been a shame to miss out Fergie because he didn't fit into some strict definition of who is successful enough to manage this club. If the club see something in Giggs then maybe we should let them take the chance for us.
Not sure I understand your post. I was saying that, even though 1986 is about as relevant as 1886 in terms of the multinational, Top 4 dominated premier league, Fergie still had a very impressive CV (Scottish football wasn't a joke back then). Giggs has zero managerial experience on his CV and a second wild gamble in the first three post-Fergie appointments would be reckless.
 

JPRouve

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What's so funny?
Tennis is very peculiar, I coached Badminton and it's mainly a technical coaching, coaching a collective sport is totally different. As for Football the organisation of a franchise is also very different from Soccer.
Also Ditka has a huge personality and presence, you don't need to know him to see that he is special.
 

Walrus

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Guardiola has the best trophy to years ratio in the history of football. Add to that, he made an underperforming team into the best team ever, while also popularized his brand of football. He is easily in top 10.

Mourinho is the only manager in Europe who has won the league title in 4 countries. With 8 league titles and 2 UCL he is already approaching SAF-type of legacy. Again, easily in top 10.

Ancelotti has won more UCL trophies than any other manager ever. He has won league titles in three different countries. Maybe he is a bit below Pep/Jose, but not much.
I see you are one of those who measures it purely by the trophy count. Based on that, presumably Anderson is a better player than Gerrard (for example)?

I wont repeat what I just typed out in the post you quoted, but when I look at Guardiola and Mourinho - good managers both - I would say that both have a long way to go before they can be considered among the all time greats. Mourinho is a specialist at delivering short term success at a high monetary cost. Guardiola is a specialist at taking an already-great team and continuing/building on their success. He was also fortunate enough to inherit a Barcelona team featuring some of the best players in the world and one GOAT-contender. Again, I wouldnt consider Barca (or Bayern) as particularly hard or challenging jobs when he took them on. It might sound odd, but I consider him unproven, to an extent.


United hasn't ever been about making long term appointments. Neither Sir Matt, neither Sir Alex were United legends when they came here. Neither of them got 25 years contracts when they came here. Neither of them were chosen to come here cause they would stay here for 25 years. Neither of them would have stayed here 25 years if they didn't deserve so. Neither of them got the job on nepotism.

United has always been for playing good football and winning trophies. Sir Matt said something like 'we should play good for the fans cause after a week of hard work, United is the only thing that gives them enjoyement'.

Ultimatelly, in a fast changing world, history is completely irrelevant. Doing a Liverpool or Milano isn't unimaginable. We haven't won anything in 3 years, and that 3 can easily become 10 if we make a series of bad decisions.

I also explained that there really isn't a correlation between longivity and success + good football. And I can also make a similar argument to you: if you don't like trophies but like to have a manager for a few decades, go support Arsenal. We at United, like trophies.
And as I said, if Giggs showed he wasnt up to the task, I would be the first one calling for him to be sacked. I do not want continuity or long term appointments just for the sake of it, however when I look at the structure of United, it lends itself to a long term approach with managers, because the manager is entrusted with pretty much every single decision on the football side of the business, from the youth team to the transfers. You cannot have an approach where you give an individual that sort of power, and then change the individual every couple of years, because you will be stuck in an endless transition with no sort of long term plan.

If we got a Director of Football, or something similar, then my stance on this would change dramatically, but that is a discussion for another thread. We have to have a long term plan - that doesnt necessarily mean we have to have a long term manager, but at the moment the manager is the only one in the hierarchy who can really construct and oversee that sort of plan. I am talking about youth development, transitioning from one team to the next (a skill of Ferguson's that in my view was centric to his continued success).


Of course every appointment is a risk. How much a risk it is though? Apple getting Larry Page or Bill Gates as new CEO (I know that it is impossible, but for the sake argument) is less a risk then them appointing a guy who was a great coder and then spent two years as Steve Jobs adviser.

Similarily, Mourinho or Pep can fail. However from their CV, chances of them failing (or at least miserably failing) are very low. They have won trophies in every team they managed, they are already legendary managers. Comparing them to Giggsy whose biggest managerial decision has been what types of powerpoint slides to use for the weekly presentation, is nonsese. Obviously, I exagerated a bit here, but his CV is relatively blank compared with the three managers we made.

In the end, United isn't more special than any other top club. Neither the United job is more difficult than the job of Madrid or Barca. Every manager that is a success in other top clubs, have a relatively high chance of becoming a success here (vice versa too).
The difficulty of a job depends on circumstance. The de-facto mission statement for a Real Madrid manager is likely to be "We will buy you great players, now win all the trophies."
Again, look at Mourinho (your supposedly "legendary" manager) this season. Ignoring results, he looks like he is on the verge of a breakdown - first the whole drama with the medical team, now his apparent plan of throwing his players under the bus (Matic last weekend). This is the first time in recent memory that Jose has actually had to face a bit of adversity and so far, it is not going well for him. Is he a man who can deliver success with a limited budget? Is he capable of carrying on that success for more than two years? Is he able to bring through youth players (my friend is a die hard Chelsea fan and has been appalled at Jose's unwillingness to give their youngsters more gametime)? These are all unanswered questions. I already discussed Guardiola.

I guess it depends on what you really want from the manager, and what you want from the club as a whole. If your sole concern is trophies at any cost (and the cost may be quite high), with a "win today, worry about tomorrow when it comes" sort of approach, I can see why you might like Mourinho. I think there is a bit more to it than that. I want to see attractive football, I want to see home grown youth products (if they are of sufficient quality) being developed. I want to see trophies as well of course, but these things are not mutually exclusive.

Finally, if you think that over the years as AM, the extent of Giggs' responsibilities is selecting powerpoint slides, then I think we need to dig out that word again "deluded".
 

devilish

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I have two (well, three really) questions I want to pose to @Jazz and the "There is no logical reason for the appointment" brigade;

1) Do you agree that the Glazer's, as businessmen, are not going to make a managerial appointment based on romanticism and sentimentality, but rather on logic and who they deem best for the job?

2) Do you agree that there is a very real possibility that Giggs will be the next manager, based on the noises coming out of the club, from key people etc? (Note: This is not asking whether you want Giggs, but whether it is a realistic possibility considering all the statements from LVG, Ferguson etc)

Now, if you have answered "Yes" to both of those questions - is it not then fair to say that there must be some merit, and some actual logical reasons behind the Giggs appointment, such as those that have been suggested in this thread, and that whether you agree with those reasons or not, it is at least a discussion worth having?
1) Yes and no. They wont do it based on romantisim and sentimentality however they may be relying on people that do. The Glazers know nothing about football so its only fair for them to rely on the football experts they have appointed to make such decisions (ex SAF and Charlton). What I am forecasting is that if Giggs makes a mess than SAF/Charlton wouldn't survive this second mistake (after Moyes saga). All traces of SAF, Charlton and the 'old way' would be removed from the club to make way to people who would put the club first rather than live on sentimentality. Call it crazy but maybe that is what the Glazers are planning all along.

2) I think the ones pushing Giggs are SAF and Charlton. LVG may have joined the banter in a bid of keeping his own people employed (once retired, his people will find it hard to find adequate employment just as SAF people did) and keep the old guard off his back
 

Roboc7

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It's totally relevant we are in Scifi thread, as for the first part, not if we show an ounce of competence if we see a coach that we like we should sign him even if it means firing LVG.
I don't mean to be blunt but it's pretty stupid to think it's that simple, it wasn't the last two times we needed new managers. Clearly there is logic for giving giggs the job, it might not be the best option but he guarantees some form of continuity.

Knowing who the manger will be in 18 months, what he wants to do with the team, and that the current manager thinks he should take over are understandable reasons for appointing giggs, he could be terrible, he could be a great manager, no one knows.

A DOF only become relevant if we have one and given we never have and have shown no indication of appointing one i can't see it happening unless LVG moves upstairs which would probably only increase the chances of giggs taking over.
 

Revan

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I don't want Giggs as our next manager.
Well, you have been advocating the pros of making Giggs as our new manager since the beginning of this thread. Sorry, for getting the impression that he's your top choice (or near it). I guess that you're playing the devil's advocate then.
 

Raoul

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And all the bolded ones were mentioned as future United managers. Bar Blanc, all have shown to be failures at that job. The unbolded ones have shown to be failures too, but don't remember them getting mentioned as future United managers. JohnoWhite 'the manc' at RAWK wants Bruce as our manager though. Bless him!
One also routinely hears Cantona's name bandied about in these threads. Just shows how far some are willing to suspend logic and capitulate to fanaticism.
 
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