We were in for Fabregas, Thiago & Fellaini in the same way we're in for Costa and Traore at the moment. We've had negotiations with all three of them, failed with the first one, pulled the plug on the second (why, oh God, why?!) and eventually signed the third one. Papers linked us with Brooks, Costa, Traore, Dembele etc. but there's no indication whatsoever that we've even made an initial inquiry.
The David Moyes appreciation thread
- Thread starter Sir Scott McToMinay
- Start date
Aside from the fact that he hasn't suffered a sudden cardiac arrest, what exactly makes you say that he has a good heart? You can fail miserably as a professional but still save your face by acting fair, admitting your shortcomings etc. Everything Moyes did after his appointment was small-time and especially his comments after his sacking (and right until this day, including his recent sore comments about how Ole was given more time) were anything but humble and fair. He has fell out with many United players – and not only because of the horrendous results, there are enough reports about his laughable attempts at psychological manipulation etc.
Don't get me wrong though, the manager's job and a genuinely good heart are rarely compatible.
We weren't in for Thiago precisely for the reason you state.
The point is that we weren't negotiating on different fronts in the run up to deadline day. Fellaini was a last second panic buy who we only ended up with because Woodward thought he was going to pick Fabregas off a shelf. The reason you can tell that is because their player profiles are nothing alike. Fellaini wasn't a footballing alternative to Fabregas, so much as a distraction from the failures of the chairman.
What's been different since 2013 is that we do now keep multiple lines of communication open for different players for weeks at a time.
Yes, we still have a number one priority. But actual work is also done towards the second and third priorities before the last day of the window. That's the (only) lesson Woodward has learned.
Nope. We were in for Fellaini from the start of the window, but as he was always a second choice, Woody tried to force a double transfer with Fellaini & Baines for a bulk price. It failed miserably and this is why we had to pay over the odds later, when his clause had expired. Thiago had close contact with Manchester United and Moyes had pulled the plug at the very last second – again, judging by Thiago's own comments.
To say that we're in for Costa or Traore based on the current evidence (which is almost non-existent at the moment) and in the same sentence to suggest that we weren't considering other options in 2013 is a bit weird. We're in exactly the same situation – we have our first choice in Sancho/Fabregas and then we have some options in theory that we haven't really explored yet, it's all paper talk at the moment. It doesn't really look like a well-designed strategy.
Can't argue with that. Whatever kind of person he is, he's done enormous harm to this club.
LvG and Mourinho have both talked about transfer shortlists at United. Whether it's currently Costa and Traore or somebody else is irrelevant.
In 2013, Woodward pursued Fabregas right up to the final day despite it being clear he wouldn't come. For all this other faults, this season he's already moved on from Sancho and got Van de Beek.
In Moyes' own words:
https://www.sportbible.com/football...marouane-fellaini-signing-for-united-20171013
Moyes wanting Fabregas and Bale is not a bad thing.
The error was at the negotiation level from Woodward. Any decent negotiator needs to know when to walk away if a deal is impossible. They also know not to be backed into a corner to the point when you're forced into a panic. Woodward was guilty of both.
He should have worked from a shortlist the way we do nowadays. I question our competence competence in doing so, but that's a different point I've talked about that further up.
How are those transfers related? By all indications, he hasn't yet moved on from Sancho, although we'll only know if this was a right or a wrong decision once the transfer is done or the window ends.
Well, even in your post you have Moyes talking about them considering Matic and then switching to Fellaini. It's literally the same shortlist system that is theoretically in place, but in reality it doesn't really work. We've been bidding for Baines and Fellaini, separately and as a joint bid, since June.
Anyway, as the thing stand now, we're still fully invested in a deal that may be impossible and we're certainly at the place when we're being forced to make a panic buy – be it Sancho for 120m or another winger on a deadline day. What makes it even more stupid, it's not a case where the club is refusing to sell us a player altogether and we've known their asking price for months now – and we know that they're not desperate to sell him and it's almost impossible that they'll lower the price. So the decision to either pay up or to walk away had to be done in July, maybe in August – certainly not after the season had already started.
You're getting confused about the wants of manager versus negotiation strategies of the chairman.
I'm talking about Woodward's monomania over Fabregas in 2013. It railroaded him into a single transfer obsession and meant he couldn't wrap up anything but Fellaini on the final day of the window.
That single-pronged strategy is something he hasn't been guilty of since. Hence it's a lesson he's learned.
Ehm, the issue was the players Moyes wanted and his belief that they always stood a chance of getting them.
"I felt all along that Bale was a Manchester United player. I fought right until the last minute. We actually offered a bigger deal than Real Madrid.
“I was desperate to take him to Manchester United from Tottenham, but couldn’t quite get him. He had his heart set on going to Real Madrid.
“He was very much on my radar as soon as I went to United.
"Cesc Fabregas, who I spoke to on the phone several times, was not sure of his place in the Barcelona team and I remember him saying if he didn't start the first game at Barcelona he would definitely be looking to join us.
"And he started the first game at Barcelona. So, small things – you're waiting on things happening.
Moyes was the one that was desperate to sign them, and wanted to stick to them as he thought we had a chance of getting them, expecting Woodward to go against the manager when he's spoken to both players is fecking absurd.
You're talking about a manager that didn't want Fellaini to be his first signing because of the signals it would send, he's a fecking moron.
Hindsight is wonderful but seriously, before the board offered him the job they should have asked themselves 'Would Moyes be offered the Chelsea/Arsenal job? Or any job from any top club in any major European league?'
Sentimental BS cost us dearly. Mourinho should have been given the job instead. I know he turned out poorly with us in the end but when he arrived at Chelsea 2nd time he was a great manager.
I think it wa shis second stint at Chelsea that made him miserable and bitter, not his time at Real Madrid. I think that because when he returned to Chelsea in 2013 he was very similar to the way he was before in terms of personality, from what I remember.
Sentimental BS cost us dearly. Mourinho should have been given the job instead. I know he turned out poorly with us in the end but when he arrived at Chelsea 2nd time he was a great manager.
I think it wa shis second stint at Chelsea that made him miserable and bitter, not his time at Real Madrid. I think that because when he returned to Chelsea in 2013 he was very similar to the way he was before in terms of personality, from what I remember.
It's the negotiator's job to figure that out and feed it back to the club. Here's a gif of Woodward talking to Fabregas right up to the day we panic bought Fellaini:
Moyes wasn't involved in the transfer discussions.
Now, Moyes did get lots of things wrong. But wanting to bring a top player to the Premier League champions wasn't one of them. The moron in this particular case is Woodward.
Moyes wasn’t a good man.
This is the guy who, instead of getting stuck in went on a two week holiday and delayed him starting the job.
He’s clearly a poor manager, who didn’t have the tools for a top job. We could all have accepted that, but the way he has handled himself by blaming everything and anyone but himself shows him up as a ‘good man’. He has no humility and cannot accept his own failure and the impact he had on our club.
You seem somewhat confused, more so than usual. The hierarchy at the club isn't that complicated...You're creating a false narrativeIt's the negotiator's job to figure that out and feed it back to the club. Here's a gif of Woodward talking to Fabregas right up to the day we ended up panic buying Fellaini:
Moyes wasn't involved in the transfer discussions.
Moyes got lots of things wrong, but wanting to bring a top player to the Premier League champions wasn't one of them. The moron in this particular case is Woodward.
Moyes is well known for wanting to spend an obscene amount of time to make sure "it's the right player", and Moyes is the one that constantly bangs on about personally speaking to Bale and Fabregas, being convinced that we stood a chance of signing them and that it was important to do our utmost to sign them, the phone with each of them right until it was nailed to the wall that neither were joining us.
Moyes didn't just hand over a list and expected the club to do it's best to deliver, he got personally involved and was convinced that the players were interested in joining us. Imagine the fecking disaster if Woodward insisted after a few weeks that they weren't joining us, against the wishes of Moyes.
Moyes is the one in the gif, not Woodward.
Moyes wasn't involved in negotiations.
If Woodward had said after a few weeks that Fabregas wasn't joining us, it wouldn't have been a disaster. That's a mental thing to claim; it's a normal part of negotiating a deal.
Does he have a good heart? He threatened to slap a woman on live TV
I think it is well known now that the manager doesn't do transfers. It is Woodward. The manager just gives a list and it is Woodward and that Arnold guy who do the execution. Which, except for last season, has been shit the last 6 years.
And why in god's name do we do this to ourselves by reminding ourselves of the horrors of the Moyes era? I feel like a war veteran with PTSD now ...
If Moyes stop our rivals in the games to come then he should be hailed as a genious.
Probably going to lose them all.
Probably going to lose them all.
It's bizarre that you let your personal opinion on Woodward dictate this and that you can't wrap your head around common sense and the information available.
“Other managers have changed their clubs too and everybody thought this might be the summer when transfers are done later in the month. “That was always the thought I had when I came into the club. “You have to remember I only started on July 1, so in truth I have only been in the job three weeks at this present time.
It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together and understand that Moyes didn't really have many targets that summer, he wanted to pick from the top shelf because there were players there potentially on the move. The problem was a combination of lack of alternatives and Moyes failing to understand what was going on. Bale was always nailed on for Real Madrid and Fabregas didn't really want to leave Barcelona that summer, yet Moyes was convinced that both of them were possible to sign and that it was worth the risk to stay on them.
His involvement in trying to convince Bale and Fabregas to join the club shouldn't be underestimated, nor the consequences.
Moyes admitted that he would have to consider other options if United continue to be rebuffed by Barca – but is not ready to give up yet.
“I think a point does come," he said. “But when you are interested in good players you want to give it every opportunity.
"Cesc Fabregas, who I spoke to on the phone several times, was not sure of his place in the Barcelona team and I remember him saying if he didn't start the first game at Barcelona he would definitely be looking to join us.
"And he started the first game at Barcelona. So, small things – you're waiting on things happening.
It's hardly fair to expect Woodward to tell Moyes that he's wrong, and that even though Moyes thinks we should give it every opportunity, to the point of waiting as long as possible, Woodward has other ideas and we should instead drop our interest. He'd be crucified. The manager was convinced that the risk was worth taking and that these were the two players that were ideal for the club, so the club does what it can to provide those two players.
Agree 100%
Exactly.
Thiago was in the bag, if I recall he had an exit clause if he didn't play a certain number of games. All we had to do was trigger the clause (25m?). We didn't, and Pep G at Bayern Munich swooped in.
How hot is his daughter anyway?
We didn't get him because Moyes said he has not seen him play. He had the mindset of a small club and thought everything should go thru him personally. He did not understand how big Manchester United was. I think it was Phelan or Rene who said in an interview they told him about how big Manchester United is and its like a cruise ship when he was in charge of a river boat at Everton.
Yeah Moyes told Woodward he wanted Fabregas, Woodward tried several times to sign Fabregas. It didn't happen for whatever reason but if either party must be at fault, then surely it's Moyes for giving his chairman unrealistic targets that no groundwork had been done on behind the scenes to see if they actually wanted to come.
Just like Bale, Ronaldo, Fellaini and Baines and that was the extent of Moyes target list.
It’s mostly of Moyes.
Turning down players we had scouted for years because he hadn’t seen them. Getting the job and buggering off for a two week holiday, just when we needed a manger.
Relying on his transfer board, which was fine for Everton type players, but not for Utd.
Sacking all of Fergies staff.
I would take all that stuff with a huge pinch of salt, Fergie said in his book (the first edition not the updated one after Moyes got sacked), that he kept telling Moyes around January/February 2013 not to renew his contract with Everton. So that it would be “easier for United” to hire him.
More like 6 weeks. He wouldn’t engage in any work on transfers for United while still technically under contract at Everton apparently.
United, at the time, were Premier League champions. You don't know if a player is a realistic target until you dip your toes in the water. As such, it's up to the negotiator to determine the possibility of success after talks with agents and representatives. Instead, Woodward was led up the garden path for an entire summer and gave himself no time for a proper plan B. The manager's role was relatively hands off after the initial request.
Also, let's not forget that Fabregas moved to Chelsea not too long after. So it wasn't totally unrealistic and it certainly warranted at least an inquiry.
I understand not liking Moyes. I also therefore understand the psychological desire to dump the blame for everything that went wrong onto him. But it simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny when we're talking about transfer negotiations.
Moyes failed at lots of different parts of his job. But so did Woodward. It's not a zero sum game.
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Yesterday’s performance was reminiscent of a Moyes‘ team, sadly.
Plans A,B,C etc should be coming from the manager not the chairman. That’s not how it’s supposed to work.
I’m not trying to blame everything on Moyes nor absolve Woodward of any blame. Both were poor in that window, Woodward understandably given he was threw in the deep end having just got the job.
But if your new in the job and the new manager after a 5-6 week holiday rocks up on July 1st with a list of targets that includes Ronaldo, Bale, Fabregas and Fellaini what else could he have done?
He lodged bids for 3 of them, had bids accepted for 2 and signed one.
Moyes didn’t have other targets, he himself admitted the club offered him the chance to sign Herrera and he didn’t want him because he hadn’t scouted him enough. Similar story to Thiago really. Moyes has also confirmed club then late in the window seemingly frustrated with Moyes own dithering went for Herrera anyway. As well as several other players like DeRossi, Khedira, Coentrao etc in a late panic mode scatter gun approach.
Both parties are to blame for that cluster feck of a window so stop trying to absolve Moyes.
Oh David, what a fool you were. Sack everyone and bring your own mediocre team in to ignore everything that was already in place for you.