Barcelona are a great club, and one I like to see well, but there are clear comparisons between both Manchester United and Barcelona to be made as a result of this season.
The Decline of FC Barcelona?
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You're right, United are not an elite club. And without doubt will not be challenging next season.
If the transfer ban is lifted (it will probably not be lifted, it will be temporarily suspended) then Barcelona will go for at least one big name CB, and a younger prospect as well. I am not 100% certaon they will go for a CF though. The names that Catalan papers mention - outside the CB positions - have been Reus, Vidal, Aguero and several big CFs, Llorrente being one of them)
I would have gone for two CBs, and either Llorrente or Mario Gomez. And depending who gets sold, maybe Reus and/or Vidal. Remember that we will have to make two transfer windows in the space of one in all probability.
Hang on, are you saying that we aren't an elite club just because of one poor season? I disagree with Kid on the comparison this season, but make no mistake, we are an elite club and we will be back sooner rather than later.
Both clubs have done worse than they usually do. The big difference, is CL football. Another big difference, is that we still have several world class players in our roster, more than you do I might add.
But on the other hand, you are extremely rich as well (maybe richer now) and will try and spend your way out of trouble. But there are still two crucial differences between the two clubs imo.
Im not sure if you are being sarcastic, united obviously belong in the elite clubs but barca have been to 6 or 7 cl semi finals in a row and have been in the copa final many times in the last few years and have won 4 out of the last 5 leagues. They are to be held at a different standard to united at the moment. What im saying is that barca will be going for three trophies again next year and there are not many clubs that can say that, especially after this supposed abysmal season from them. they are in a different situation entirely to united, and most other clubs in the world atm.
You definitely are still an elite club. Your biggest problem, is that you will miss on CL football next season, and also that there are 4 other very rich teams in your domestic league that may get in your way of returning to the CL for 2015/16. You have to overtake at least one of Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal and Man City.
Top 5 clubs in the world atm I mean. I don't think anybody can argue with that. That can change very fast like Madrid have shown where we have gone from going out in the last 16 for several years to getting to four semi finals in a row. I don't think I said anything unfair. Even last year when united won the league they would not have been a definite team you could have put in the top 5 teams in the world, butt that is just my opinion. My main point was that uniteds and barcas situations are not compareable atm.
Well surely you didn't place Madrid in this list of top five last season either?
"2nd in the league, 2nd in the cup knocking barca out to get there and got to the semi finals of the cl. I would along with barca, Dortmund, Bayern and juventus. We beat city and united to get there and both teams were very respective towards us by setting up to be very defensive, even though we were considered to be playing very poor and having a bad season and in the end narrowly lost out to Dortmund although they were deserved winners. That's my opinion.
We won the title, that's a fact.
Moving Cesc around doesn't help him obviously but he's yet to show that he's capable of replacing Xavi (in terms of influencing the team, not style, it's unfair to expect him to play the same way). It's not like he's been not had chances either - he's played instead of Messi, instead of Xavi, instead of Iniesta as well as with all three, and yet he's never looked suitable. I mean...not finding the right position is not the reason why his touch is really sloppy compared to his team mates, or why he still doesn't know when to slow the game down (it's always straight to the throat, a nice skill in the right team, just not at Barcelona), or why he has no speed or why he keeps losing the ball against teams that press well.
I agree that Cesc and Xavi in the same team isn't working, and I agree that the time for Xavi to be phased out is now, but I think someone else has to be bought because I don't think Cesc is capable. He's kind of like the modern day Riquelme - fantastic player who would suit most teams, but has too many limitations without being good enough to justify building a team that covers for his weaknesses. If it was up to me I'd keep him as a squad player, someone who offers that direct threat that would be useful as a sub or against weaker teams, but there's no way I'd have him as the number 1 midfielder. Also thinks if he wants out they shouldn't fight to keep him.
Dortmund won no titles last year. Do you think you were better than them? Where do you think you would have finished in the Spanish league or the german league where your main competitors (unlike city and Chelsea) didn't go out in the group stage of the champions league?
Dortmund were better than Madrid last season, without a doubt. Perhaps it is a language barrier, but I find your classification of elite clubs strange, especially when you consider a trophyless Madrid above a title winning Manchester United.
It's true that Cesc does not have the close control that most Barcelona players do have and that is a severe limitation. He is also quite slow (as is Xavi btw) and he is not as good as Xavi at setting up the tempo. But he has other great attributes that we can exploit I think. If not, then we can still sell him for good money to an English club and bring in someone like Vidal.
His main reference is the CL obviously. A KO competition that can go either way very easily.
Well Madrid were hardly superior to us! We took the lead against them twice and it was a referee error that decided the tie.
Madrid won the title the year before as well as the fact that it was our third semi final in a row, so its not like we just had one season were we went far in the competition. We play in different competitions so we cant really use our leagues as a measuring stick, although I would prefer Madrid had to compete with city and Chelsea rather than barca every year. So yes I definitely do think we were in the elite. Like I said, just my opinion. Im not posting aggressively or anything, just saying what I think. I don't think many would argue that dormund were the second best team in the world last year either.
Agreed. That was last year though. This year is different. And the next will be different still.
Of course, I agree there.
Anyway, two disappointing seasons for both Manchester United and Barcelona.
Huge problems at Barcelona on numerous levels. Messi get's most of the scrutiny but other major stalwarts of the side like Xavi/Iniesta have dropped off notably with Iniesta having much less influence in the final 3rd partly because him and fabregas take up the same space partly because of Neymar occupying the wide left role, he looks lost. Xavi is declining physically which makes Barca more vulnerable to counters and the intensity has gone, teams are also much more tactically prepared to play vs Barca these days and losing Puyol hurts them. While he's still posting good numbers Messi has looked very poor in a number of big games this season, must be affected by his injury problems/court case/rosell saga/impending world cup etc
They obviously still have elite players but having all of Xavi/Iniesta/Neymar/Fabregas/Messi doesn't seem to get the best out of them and maybe someone will need to be sacrificed going forward. They need to make some big decisions in the summer but with the current lack of leadership at the top I'm not convinced they'll get it right. They'll still compete but the Barca team which dominated from 2006-2012 seems to be on the out, as SAF said football goes in cycles so R.I.P Barca.
They obviously still have elite players but having all of Xavi/Iniesta/Neymar/Fabregas/Messi doesn't seem to get the best out of them and maybe someone will need to be sacrificed going forward. They need to make some big decisions in the summer but with the current lack of leadership at the top I'm not convinced they'll get it right. They'll still compete but the Barca team which dominated from 2006-2012 seems to be on the out, as SAF said football goes in cycles so R.I.P Barca.
Yeah pretty much how I see it. I think it's fine if you keep him, just that it would be too much to completely change your style just so he can fit in. If the plan is to move to a more direct style anyway then that's not so bad. He's definitely not the "ready made Xavi replacement" some like to make him out to be though.
If you go far in it every year then it obviously means something. And you posted to me the other day saying that the champions league is much more important than the league. Both are important imo, but its also about doing well consistently in both
It's amazing how much slower they are to press people and close down these days. It's almost as if something has happened, something important to do with physical performance, in only the last year or so, which has caused them to lower the level of their previously superhuman fitness. Weird.
Well, I guess we'll never know.
*wanders off whistling*
Well, I guess we'll never know.
*wanders off whistling*
Hmmm, I wonder what you are implying. Are you saying that they are too stupid or unintelligent to press defenders anymore? That they are idiots or dopes?
I wouldn't presume to throw out any causes. Just observing what seems bloody evidence, I mean evident.
its evident but most likely its just down to motivation. Its ridiculous to think that exactly one team is doping and all other wont do it. Thats just plane stupid. If they are doping, than surely all teams, that can compete with them do it as well. That would mean, that almost all cl-round-of-16 teams, were/are doping. Considering that there are smaller sides, that are actually running more would imply that these teams are also doing.
Its the same logic, when people think/thought that ONLY the tour de france winner was doping, while #2-#100 have to be clean (else they would have also won
).
Its down to: Almost all teams do it. Almost no team does it. Individual players do it.
Anyway. Playing a high line with dwarfs is beneficial when you play killer pressing, but its suicide when the pressing is non-existent.
They have to get a new manager and sell xavi. The rest depends on the new manager. Bartra+Pique could be a solid partnership but one more CB would be good as well.
Its the same logic, when people think/thought that ONLY the tour de france winner was doping, while #2-#100 have to be clean (else they would have also won
). Its down to: Almost all teams do it. Almost no team does it. Individual players do it.
Anyway. Playing a high line with dwarfs is beneficial when you play killer pressing, but its suicide when the pressing is non-existent.
They have to get a new manager and sell xavi. The rest depends on the new manager. Bartra+Pique could be a solid partnership but one more CB would be good as well.
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Whatever it may be I'm alluding to, I don't think their success was all down to it, or that they were alone in doing it. If they did it. Whatever it was. But that thing that I may (or may not) be possibly alluding to, and it's amazingly coincidental timing just after the most unprecedented period of sporting success in S----sh [redacted] history, followed by the incredibly corrupt appearance of state mandated evidence disposal, and the subsequent relative drop in performances is, put diplomatically, too fecking absurdly ridiculous to just completely ignore forever.its evident but most likely its just down to motivation. Its ridiculous to think that exactly one team is doping and all other wont do it. Thats just plane stupid. If they are doping, than surely all teams, that can compete with them do it as well. That would mean, that almost all cl-round-of-16 teams, were/are doping. Considering that there are smaller sides, that are actually running more would imply that these teams are also doing.
Its the same logic, when people think/thought that ONLY the tour de france winner was doping, while #2-#100 have to be clean (else they would have also won
Its down to: Almost all teams do it. Almost no team does it. Individual players do it.
Whatever it may be. Or not be.
Madness to write them off.
Their manager just like ours isn't good enough.
Their manager just like ours isn't good enough.
If this year in football has taught me one thing, it's that managers actually do quite a lot. Who knew?
Since 2006 -
United - 5 league titles, 1 CL, 3 CL finals, 4 CL semis
Barcelona - 4 league titles, 2 CL, 2 CL finals, 6 CL semis
Not that big of a difference really.
Considering league and Europe, we were easily the second best club in Europe during Barca's domination.
There is zero direct comparison between Barca and United though, we are in much more dire position than Barca. But part of the reason for that is the money bag teams in PL in City and Chelsea, you don't have the same in La Liga.
With the greatest of respect, bugger off
We won the league, at a distance beating moneybags City, and we were absolutely robbed against you lot. You were playing poor? You spent a feck load of money last and spent more with this year. It's your opinion, but in my opinion, your opinion is shit.The CL is by far the most important club competition in the world. But it can still go either way very easily. League performance means very little compared to the CL. For example, when Real Madrid could not get past the Last 16 stage, no one would describe them as one of the very best team in Europe, irrespective of how they did in their domestic league. The same went for Inter until they managed to win the CL. Doing consistently well in the CL is the acid test for any major European club, all the rest is secondary.
They need centre-halves, but oddly enough the perfect player for them now would be Ibrahimovic. If they had him in the lineup still, if he had stayed past Pep's days at the club, he could really have the partnership with Messi they need. They need a big, versatile, world class, goal scorer who breaks the mould of what they have now. If there defence was sorted and they had that, I think it would be a different story. They need a new formation, a new ethos, and a more direct style of play. Its all well and good to play like Cruyff had them playing in the early 90s but it isn't working at the moment, they need a new vision.
That is what I was saying about united, but you seemed to be disagreeing
And I think the point the others were making was that United have done better in the CL over the last 6 or 7 years than anyone bar Barca & Bayern. Yes we're out next year, which will be a huge blow, and went into the Europa a couple back, but we're still in the top 5 of UEFA's coefficient club rankings (which are based on European performances) despite a couple of poor showings. We also hold the record for consistent qualification (which will almost certainly be broken by you lot in 2 years...fecking Moyes!)
The point is, short memory.
The point is, short memory.
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With the greatest of respect, bugger off
wow great achievement. They are such a great team going out early in the cl every year and all. Who hasn't beaten them in recent years?My opinion is shit and bugger off, wow. First person on this site to get tetchy with me, well done. Its just football you know. My opinion is no more shit than yours, unless you can show me some coaching degrees or something. I have never insulted anyone on this site, nor have I posted aggressively or arrogantly but if you want to be like that to me then you can. I can take it. I wont resort to insulting you either. That's not why I am on this site, which I consider to be the best football forum.
Football goes in cycles, and for me when people say a new generation they aren't very clear when a new one starts. Maybe each world cup could be the end of a generation and the beginning of a new one. The Madrid and united teams from 06/07 to 08/9 or 09/10 or whenever are different from the ones from 10/11 to now imo. For me, this Madrid team from 10/11 is better than the Madrid team from 06/07 to 08/09. I would say united were better from 06/07 to 08/09 than they have been since 10/11 to now.
Well that's obviously true, but it depends how you're ranking it. Are you making some subjective performance based list, or claiming it as a wider, more accepted thing?
If it's entirely on performance, for example, then the Madrid team who failed to qualify beyond the 2nd round for about 6 years would be well off the pace. However I'd still include them in the elite during most of that time. Ronaldo signed for you during this period.
Though tbh, I don't really disagree with you. I agree that we're going to slip out of the limelight and thus the fashionable bracket next year, like Milan. I just wanted to bring up that we used to be good once. Quite recently. I helps get through the dark times.
If it's entirely on performance, for example, then the Madrid team who failed to qualify beyond the 2nd round for about 6 years would be well off the pace. However I'd still include them in the elite during most of that time. Ronaldo signed for you during this period.
Though tbh, I don't really disagree with you. I agree that we're going to slip out of the limelight and thus the fashionable bracket next year, like Milan. I just wanted to bring up that we used to be good once. Quite recently. I helps get through the dark times.
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