The Decline of FC Barcelona?

[Raul Madrid]

Well that's obviously true, but it depends how you're ranking it. Are you making some subjective performance based list, or claiming it as a wider, more accepted thing?

If it's entirely on performance, for example, then the Madrid team who failed to qualify beyond the 2nd round for about 6 years would be well off the pace. However I'd still include them in the elite during most of that time. Ronaldo signed for you during this period.

Though tbh, I don't really disagree with you. I agree that we're going to slip out of the limelight and thus the fashionable bracket next year, like Milan. I just wanted to bring up that we used to be good once. Quite recently. I helps get through the dark times.

Maybe im basing it more on cl performance. From 2006 to 2009 or 2010 when you talked about the elite united were the team. There was no team better from 06 onwards imo til barca came along. At the time united, Chelsea and Liverpool were the elite imo, even though Liverpool didn't win that many trophies bar the cl in 05, they could beat anyone. Now when people talk about the elite, be it in a pub or wherever barca, bayern and Madrid are the teams that to me seem to be discussed the most. Im surprised you consider us to be in the elite from 04 to 09 as even though we won two leagues in that time, we were not one of the feared teams in the competition and if you go out early 6 years in a row there is an obvious problem. No way would we have been in the top 5 in those years. United, Chelsea, Liverpool, barca, arsenal and maybe others were ahead of us. Also I never said that united will slip out of the limelight, its just that I don't think they are as dominant and feared like they were from 06 to 09 or 10. They could be back next year, but not in the same way barca will be (thats how this started, comparing barcas situation to united when they are very different). Nobody would be surprised if barca won the cl next year, even with the same team and a few changes, whereas united I feel will have a more slow building process towards that (maybe one or two years). Whether that is with moyes or someone else I don't know. I just think decline is too string to describe barca and it annoys me how people make them out to be terrible, yet nobody would want to face them.

 

[Malva]

They need centre-halves, but oddly enough the perfect player for them now would be Ibrahimovic. If they had him in the lineup still, if he had stayed past Pep's days at the club, he could really have the partnership with Messi they need. They need a big, versatile, world class, goal scorer who breaks the mould of what they have now. If there defence was sorted and they had that, I think it would be a different story. They need a new formation, a new ethos, and a more direct style of play. Its all well and good to play like Cruyff had them playing in the early 90s but it isn't working at the moment, they need a new vision.

he didn't work then and wouldn't work now, as he hasn't changed, and barcelona need movement more then ever up front. ibra is too lazy and plays too much like playmaker, he drops and doesn't make himself a consistent target for crosses or through balls.

he has all the attributse to be perfect for barcelona, that's why they went for him at first, but he lacks the attitude to ever fit in a barcelona team. if you want an ibra, you have to change your midfield to be energetic and accomodating, iniesta-xavi/busquets can't support an ibra.

 

[Malva]

there was a massive drop off last season under tito vileunova already, that team was even worse then this one imo, the only difference is the level of messi, who was just unplayably good. this team under tata was alright, pretty good for half the season, but it seems they're struggling with an identity that's unlike what they've been used to all their lives. tito's team had zero identity whatsoever, i'd wager he literally told them all to go out and do what they always do. worse then tata to me, by a distance.

 

[crappycraperson]

Manchester United and Arsenal could be on alert after a poll revealed that half of Barcelona supporters wanted Cesc Fabregas to be sold in the summer.

Fabregas re-joined his boyhood club in 2011, but has struggled to find his best form having failed to hold down a regular starting spot in the same position.

Barcelona boss Gerardo Martino has deployed Fabregas in the false-nine position in recent games - an experiment which has failed badly.

Such is the extent of Fabregas's recent form that now a poll of fans has revealed that around 50% would like to see him leave the Nou Camp at the end of the season.

A poll conducted by Marca revealed that more than half of the club's fans wanted the 26-year-old gone.

Barcelona's season has capitulated in recent weeks, with a defeat against lowly Granada all but ending the defence of their league crown, while they've been knocked out of the Champions League by Atletico Madrid and beaten by Real Madrid in the Copa del Rey final.

That run looks likely to spell the beginning of the end for Martino, who only took charge of the club at the beginning of the season.

Barcelona's form - plus the troubles they face off the pitch - have contributed to the ill-feeling around the club which could explain the anger being vented at Fabregas.

Should he be forced out of the club, the Spanish international is likely to be welcomed by either Manchester United or Arsenal with open arms.

Fabregas was courted heavily by David Moyes after he took over as Manchester United boss at Old Trafford, while Arsenal retain a place in the midfielder's heart.

Any potential transfer could face a number of obstacles; Barcelona have been hit with a transfer ban by FIFA for breaches of rules relating to the transfer of under-age players.

Manchester United would also struggle to land Fabregas if Arsenal wanted him back - the Gunners are said to have first refusal on their former player if any offer from another club is accepted.

Barca fans really don't like Cesc..do they..

 

[ShadesOfTomato]

He can come to Liverpool if he likes

 

[Raul Madrid]

Barca fans really don't like Cesc..do they..

Probably an overreaction from the fans. Spanish fans are very emotional, one minute they love a player and the next minute they hate him. I wouldn't read too much into it

 

[Annahnomoss]

he didn't work then and wouldn't work now, as he hasn't changed, and barcelona need movement more then ever up front. ibra is too lazy and plays too much like playmaker, he drops and doesn't make himself a consistent target for crosses or through balls.

he has all the attributse to be perfect for barcelona, that's why they went for him at first, but he lacks the attitude to ever fit in a barcelona team. if you want an ibra, you have to change your midfield to be energetic and accomodating, iniesta-xavi/busquets can't support an ibra.

That wasn't really at all what happened though. Ibra did good in Barcelona and fit in well in the team almost instantly going on a great run at the start. Outshined Messi at the start of the season before Messi wanted a more central role and was moved to the false-9 role.

Ibrahimovic finished with 27 goals/assists in 29 matches, basically one per game in the league.

At the latter parts of the season Guardiola refused to even talk to Zlatan so the personal issues between Messi, Guardiola and Zlatan was the reason of the failure.

Henry-Zlatan-Messi was often better than Henry-Messi-Pedro. No shame in being pushed out of a side because Messi wants your position, basically all players would see the same fate.

Classic Zlatan to not just accept that he has to suck up to Messi though, that was his own mistake and he got nobody else to blame for it.

 

[Cheesy]

Barca fans really don't like Cesc..do they..

No doubt we'll put in a bid of £20m for him in the summer which gets rejected, before our surprising last day signing of Leon Osman for £27m.

 

[Malva]

That wasn't really at all what happened though. Ibra did good in Barcelona and fit in well in the team almost instantly going on a great run at the start. Outshined Messi at the start of the season before Messi wanted a more central role and was moved to the false-9 role.

i don't think he fit well. he didn't have enough movement, and had very little involvement in barcelona's play. he averaged only 25 passes per game, and it was largely due to his lack of energy in getting involved. he also had a rather low pass completion percentage of only 73% compared to all the other barca players. messi was much more accurate and averaged 20 more passes a game.

Henry-Zlatan-Messi was often better than Henry-Messi-Pedro. No shame in being pushed out of a side because Messi wants your position, basically all players would see the same fate.

it's never been confirmed that messi 'wanted' this position has it? until it has been, leave it to the gossip sections. the plain truth is that messi totally justified taking the central spot. even before messi took the central spot, playing more out wide with zlatan leading the lines, zlatan was just too damn lazy and never involved as he needed to be. Crosses would go to the box and zlatan would be 10 yards outside the 18 yard box. Messi sometimes got to the end of more crosses then 6 feet 5 ibrahimovic. The purpose of getting such a big gifted striker like ibra is for his prescence, and the ability to have a threat in the box, but ibra didn't offer this, and ibra has never offered this as ibra isn't a typical box striker, he almost never takes advantage of his tremendous physical frame despite the potential damage he could do, rather he drops very deep or hangs up waiting very high and prefers to play with his feet.

That being the case, then there's no advantage to having an ibrahimovic that despite his great ability, pales to messi. He had less key passes per game, less passes per game, less through balls per game, a far lower pass completion percentage vs messi, and less accurate long balls.

Zlatan started the first leg of the CL tie against Inter Milan and promptly ran less then valdes

i don't see how henry zlatan messi was better then henry messi pedro, pedro outscored zlatan as a winger and outworked him by a mile.

Classic Zlatan to not just accept that he has to suck up to Messi though, that was his own mistake and he got nobody else to blame for it.

he just failed when he had his chances. that simple. zlatan was a flop at barcelona. In the end he wasn't even benched by Messi, he was benched by Bojan.

 

[malappapper]

i don't think he fit well. he didn't have enough movement, and had very little involvement in barcelona's play. he averaged only 25 passes per game, and it was largely due to his lack of energy in getting involved. he also had a rather low pass completion percentage of only 73% compared to all the other barca players. messi was much more accurate and averaged 20 more passes a game.





it's never been confirmed that messi 'wanted' this position has it? until it has been, leave it to the gossip sections. the plain truth is that messi totally justified taking the central spot. even before messi took the central spot, playing more out wide with zlatan leading the lines, zlatan was just too damn lazy and never involved as he needed to be. Crosses would go to the box and zlatan would be 10 yards outside the 18 yard box. Messi sometimes got to the end of more crosses then 6 feet 5 ibrahimovic. The purpose of getting such a big gifted striker like ibra is for his prescence, and the ability to have a threat in the box, but ibra didn't offer this, and ibra has never offered this as ibra isn't a typical box striker, he almost never takes advantage of his tremendous physical frame despite the potential damage he could do, rather he drops very deep or hangs up waiting very high and prefers to play with his feet.

That being the case, then there's no advantage to having an ibrahimovic that despite his great ability, pales to messi. He had less key passes per game, less passes per game, less through balls per game, a far lower pass completion percentage vs messi, and less accurate long balls.

Zlatan started the first leg of the CL tie against Inter Milan and promptly ran less then valdes

i don't see how henry zlatan messi was better then henry messi pedro, pedro outscored zlatan as a winger and outworked him by a mile.


he just failed when he had his chances. that simple. zlatan was a flop at barcelona. In the end he wasn't even benched by Messi, he was benched by Bojan.

You are 100% correct in your analysis of Ibra @ Barca. Bojan in fact was scoring at a much better rate than Zlatan in the few games that he benched at the end of the season.

 

[crappycraperson]

i don't think he fit well. he didn't have enough movement, and had very little involvement in barcelona's play. he averaged only 25 passes per game, and it was largely due to his lack of energy in getting involved. he also had a rather low pass completion percentage of only 73% compared to all the other barca players. messi was much more accurate and averaged 20 more passes a game.





it's never been confirmed that messi 'wanted' this position has it? until it has been, leave it to the gossip sections. the plain truth is that messi totally justified taking the central spot. even before messi took the central spot, playing more out wide with zlatan leading the lines, zlatan was just too damn lazy and never involved as he needed to be. Crosses would go to the box and zlatan would be 10 yards outside the 18 yard box. Messi sometimes got to the end of more crosses then 6 feet 5 ibrahimovic. The purpose of getting such a big gifted striker like ibra is for his prescence, and the ability to have a threat in the box, but ibra didn't offer this, and ibra has never offered this as ibra isn't a typical box striker, he almost never takes advantage of his tremendous physical frame despite the potential damage he could do, rather he drops very deep or hangs up waiting very high and prefers to play with his feet.

That being the case, then there's no advantage to having an ibrahimovic that despite his great ability, pales to messi. He had less key passes per game, less passes per game, less through balls per game, a far lower pass completion percentage vs messi, and less accurate long balls.

Zlatan started the first leg of the CL tie against Inter Milan and promptly ran less then valdes

i don't see how henry zlatan messi was better then henry messi pedro, pedro outscored zlatan as a winger and outworked him by a mile.


he just failed when he had his chances. that simple. zlatan was a flop at barcelona. In the end he wasn't even benched by Messi, he was benched by Bojan.

I remember that Inter Milan tie. Zlatan was atrocious. That was the type of games, I think Barca wanted him to give that option B perhaps.

I generally agree with most of your post though. Messi through the middle offers loads more than Zlatan and if the latter can't play as a wide striker then it was never going to work. I am also always amused when people quote stats to prove Zlatan was a success at Barca. Bizarre. In a team like Barca, a good footballer like him was always going to get a few goals and assists. But largely he was a flop.

 

[Annahnomoss]

i don't think he fit well. he didn't have enough movement, and had very little involvement in barcelona's play. he averaged only 25 passes per game, and it was largely due to his lack of energy in getting involved. he also had a rather low pass completion percentage of only 73% compared to all the other barca players. messi was much more accurate and averaged 20 more passes a game.

it's never been confirmed that messi 'wanted' this position has it? until it has been, leave it to the gossip sections. the plain truth is that messi totally justified taking the central spot. even before messi took the central spot, playing more out wide with zlatan leading the lines, zlatan was just too damn lazy and never involved as he needed to be. Crosses would go to the box and zlatan would be 10 yards outside the 18 yard box. Messi sometimes got to the end of more crosses then 6 feet 5 ibrahimovic. The purpose of getting such a big gifted striker like ibra is for his prescence, and the ability to have a threat in the box, but ibra didn't offer this, and ibra has never offered this as ibra isn't a typical box striker, he almost never takes advantage of his tremendous physical frame despite the potential damage he could do, rather he drops very deep or hangs up waiting very high and prefers to play with his feet.

That being the case, then there's no advantage to having an ibrahimovic that despite his great ability, pales to messi. He had less key passes per game, less passes per game, less through balls per game, a far lower pass completion percentage vs messi, and less accurate long balls.

Zlatan started the first leg of the CL tie against Inter Milan and promptly ran less then valdes

i don't see how henry zlatan messi was better then henry messi pedro, pedro outscored zlatan as a winger and outworked him by a mile.


he just failed when he had his chances. that simple. zlatan was a flop at barcelona. In the end he wasn't even benched by Messi, he was benched by Bojan.

I think it is fairly harsh to compare statistics between any normal player and Messi and use them to reach the conclusion "he failed". Also the only relevant matches and statistics are when Zlatan played centrally, specifically before the issues with Messi/Guardiola had already started.

In the Inter game the feud was already a complete nightmare with Zlatan stating Guardiola had refused to talk to him for almost two months already. It is like using Messi from last couple of weeks to state Messi is a poor player for Barcelona when very unique circumstances are the reason rather than an average quality being low.

Before Messi had been moved centrally Zlatan had had adjusted well to the team, bar injuries which any footballer goes through at times. After Messi was turned in to a false-9 Zlatan was an absolute disgrace in every match he played pretty much. Not at all disputing him being a flop at Barcelona that would be crazy, just disputing the fact that he couldn't adapt to the system which he already proved he could.

Also of course, Messi benched Zlatan. Zlatan only played as a false-9/CAM and that is the position Messi pushed him out of. Saying Pedro benched Zlatan because Zlatan didn't magically become a winger instead is ridiculous. It is like saying Rafinha benches Martinez in Bayern when in fact it is Lahm(most often) pushing him out of his position.

You can't argue that Martinez should just suck it up and play as a right back as well as he does as a DM all of a sudden.

 

[jojojo]

For anyone who can read Spanish - and no, I'm not going to translate it - an interesting tactical article on Barca in the Copa Final.
http://www.marca.com/blogs/futbolitis/2014/04/18/messi-no-es-el-debate.html

Normally I'm not too impressed when people show static images in an analysis, but I'll make an exception when the author puts into words the vague impressions I had, and then sticks in a photo to illustrate

Here's one of the images, Barca players crowded together in their "comfort zone" positions, rather than in moving into the attacking 433 lineup

Spoiler

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Probably an overreaction from the fans. Spanish fans are very emotional, one minute they love a player and the next minute they hate him. I wouldn't read too much into it

Wouldn't really say it's just a knee jerk reaction. When Cesc returned there I think a lot of Barcelona fans (not a majority though) didn't want him and thought that they were paying too much for a youth product. He was probably liked there initially but he's been jeered in matches every season he's been there so it's not a new thing.

Probably doesn't help that he is always criticising them...

 

[prateik]

Isn't Marca Madrid based?
Half those votes are probably Madrid fans having a laugh

 

[Buchan]

Their midfield still oozes quality but they cannot afford to keep shoe-horning players in together and expect them to just go out and win a football match. Busquets, Iniesta, Xavi and Fabregas would all, preferably, wish to play in the same 20-yard patch of grass but that isn't conducive to winning football games.

Well there you have it.

A blind man could see it...

 

[Red Shorts]

Falso "9", that made me laugh for some childish reason, even when I knew it was spanish...

I noticed this a lot in the game too, where they didn't spread the so-called "tika-taka triangles" and rather bunched up regularly.It's the easiest thing to defend, and they were as easy to defend as we have been this season regularly.

 

[jojojo]

http://www.mundodeportivo.com/20140...illones-al-manchester-united_54405151769.html

Are running a poll asking if Barca should sell Cesc to United for €30m
Just saying.

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

Picture from training this morning. Even their players hate him

 

[Red Shorts]

30 Million Euros? What a bargain. Woodward bid 15 and test the waters.

 

[MJJ]

Is there a reason they refuse to hire a proper(world class/proven) manager?

 

[TheShedEnd]

Arrogant club. Just like how they refuse to strengthen the defence/midfield because of the 'famous' La Masia.

 

[Dumbstar]

Is there a reason they refuse to hire a proper(world class/proven) manager?

Do they need one? They've got Suarez now (is still ringing in my ears and the tinnitus isn't likely to subside any time soon)

 

[BigDunc9]

Why don't they try Mascherano who is the best defensive mid in the world from a defensive view next to Busquets in the big away games rather than take a beating every time ?

 

[MJJ]

Do they need one? They've got Suarez now (is still ringing in my ears and the tinnitus isn't likely to subside any time soon)

Yes, their last season was trophy-less and this one is going the same way. Once the remnants of pep's team are gone, they are gonna struggle even more. Kinda like the original chelsea that mou. built, the players were good enough to still challenge but needed a proper manager to be great again.

Why don't they try Mascherano who is the best defensive mid in the world from a defensive view next to Busquets in the big away games rather than take a beating every time ?

Player power? Going back to my weak manager point.

 

[Buchan]

What's the story now, then? Decline or not? Or this thread still a 'green smilie' haven?

 

[KM]

Absolutely woeful decision by Enrique to start Xavi and rest/drop Rakitic.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Absolutely woeful decision by Enrique to start Xavi and rest/drop Rakitic.

I don't think so. Xavi impressed in recent weeks while Rakitić faded after some excellent performances at the start of the year. Rakitić's performance against PSG was every bit as disappointing as Xavi's tonight, which I guess is why he didn't choose the Croatian

 

[JamesB__]

They're still ahead of Madrid, hadn't conceded a single goal before tonight, have Messi and Neymar in great form,ma few exciting youth players coming through and a goalkeeper that's better than Valdes. Bad time to bump this thread I think.

 

[Everest Red]

They're still ahead of Madrid, hadn't conceded a single goal before tonight, have Messi and Neymar in great form,ma few exciting youth players coming through and a goalkeeper that's better than Valdes. Bad time to bump this thread I think.

And Suarez will lift the whole team. Suarez, Messi and Neymar is astonishing front three.

 

[Brwned]

They're still ahead of Madrid, hadn't conceded a single goal before tonight, have Messi and Neymar in great form,ma few exciting youth players coming through and a goalkeeper that's better than Valdes. Bad time to bump this thread I think.

They were overshadowed by Atletico in the league and Madrid in Europe last year, their three key players from the Guardiola era are on the decline, they still haven't addressed the main flaw in their team (the defence), the team in general looks lethargic, they are stuck with the same squad for the next 2 (?) years and the two times they've faced quality opposition this year they've lost. I think this is entirely in keeping with the premise of the thread myself.

 

[TheSamulator]

Barcelona are not in decline. Madrid are used to playing Barcelona. Obviously they've lost their coach etc and that will effect them. When Sir Alex said he would retired first time round we were shockingly bad for a large period. They're not in decline. They are still the team to beat inspite of Madrids recent form.

 

[itso 7]

It felt like they were playing with eleven present day RVPs/Mata, such was their collective lethargy! And that defence is comical, they are done.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

They were overshadowed by Atletico in the league and Madrid in Europe last year, their three key players from the Guardiola era are on the decline, they still haven't addressed the main flaw in their team (the defence), the team in general looks lethargic, they are stuck with the same squad for the next 2 (?) years and the two times they've faced quality opposition this year they've lost. I think this is entirely in keeping with the premise of the thread myself.

Next two windows so they should be free to buy in January 2016.

Agree that they've definitely declined. I think they could still win the league despite that, but only if they get knocked out of the Champions League and Copa del Rey early. Their squad isn't good enough to go the distance in all three (or even 2). Real Madrid look a much stronger side on the basis of today, outclassed them in every area, but the season is long.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Suarez is very important to their future, much more important than i realized when they first signed him, that team is going backwards rather quickly and need to get a quality manager in quickly as this luis enrique guy just doesn't look like he has what it takes.

 

[PvsNP]

Arrogant club. Just like how they refuse to strengthen the defence/midfield because of the 'famous' La Masia.

This. They have had a quality crop of players come through their ranks, but lately, players like Sergi Roberto and Montoya, are far from being good enough for the first team. Bartra is good enough to be a squad player and it's still too early to tell regarding Munir and Sandro, but overall I can see them fall behind for a few years due to the transfer ban, until they realise how unique the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Messi, etc. were. Also, they need a new sporting director. Zubizarreta is a joke.

 

[Skorenzy]

I don't think so. Xavi impressed in recent weeks while Rakitić faded after some excellent performances at the start of the year. Rakitić's performance against PSG was every bit as disappointing as Xavi's tonight, which I guess is why he didn't choose the Croatian

Indeed, I wasn't surprised that Xavi started as he'd been excellent against Granada, Rayo and Eibar. I was however surprised (and disappointed) that Piqué started, though I can perhaps understand Lucho's thinking that would've meant Alba at LB which was apparently a risk he wasn't willing to take out of defensive concerns I presume (ie. aerial duels and positioning); ironic then that the absence of Alba's offensive qualities probably played a more significant part in their defeat than his defensive inadequacies would've done -- the way the MF kept turning over the ball under pressure in the 2nd half they could've done with a LB who is more comfortable in possession.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Indeed, I wasn't surprised that Xavi started as he'd been excellent against Granada, Rayo and Eibar. I was however surprised (and disappointed) that Piqué started, though I can perhaps understand Lucho's thinking that would've meant Alba at LB which was apparently a risk he wasn't willing to take out of defensive concerns I presume (ie. aerial duels and positioning); ironic then that the absence of Alba's offensive qualities probably played a more significant part in their defeat than his defensive inadequacies would've done -- the way the MF kept turning over the ball under pressure in the 2nd half they could've done with a LB who is more comfortable in possession.

Agree with that. As I said before the kick off tonight Luis Enrique picked the same 11 I would have, bar Piqué at the back.

Like you I can see why Mathieu was picked, but it just didn't work out. What surprised me was how advanced Mathieu played for a good portion of the game - if they wanted an offensive full back Jordi Alba would have been the best choice.

 

[Galactic]

My, my...they are truly on bad form. Is a decline truly on now?

 

[PvsNP]

My, my...they are truly on bad form. Is a decline truly on now?

It was ridiculous how many chances they missed last night. Celta's keeper was more than lucky not to concede. However, I can't see them winning anything under Luis Enrique, maybe a Copa del Rey at best. He looks clueless and has made many tactical errors so far. It's stupid of them to think that they can recreate Pep's success by hiring another one of their own.