The defence is good fallacy

VeevaVee

The worst "V"
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
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This is the umpteenth time we've been done when in control of a game, yet I constantly see on here that we in fact have a decent defence.
As was the case when people made this claim under LvG, this fallacy seems to come about because of positive stats that are actually down to the midfield having been in control of some games.

So many times though this season the opposition hardly attacks, but when they do they look dangerous. Too often we concede from these few tests on the defence and it completely turns the game on its head.

We desperately need a solid CB pairing if we're serious about contending for anything major.
 
All teams concede goals. We don't score enough goals, therefore it is a bigger issue when we do concede.

You're focusing on the wrong end of the pitch.
 
NinjaFletch said:
All teams concede goals. We don't score enough goals, therefore it is a bigger issue when we do concede.

You're focusing on the wrong end of the pitch.
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Yup, I agree.
 
Bayern Munich conceded 3 against this lot on this travesty of a pitch in September. Yeah Phil Jones had another dodgy game but apart from that we were pretty decent at the back.
 
We've conceded third least goals in the league this season. What sort of a thread is this?
 
I think only Chelsea and Spurs have a better defensive record.
 
Its down to the personnel than the setup. Other than Bailley, our defense is painfully average. Smalling has regressed, while Jones and Rojo are not United quality.

A top defender along with a replacement for Carrick must be our top priority in the summer. Those two alone would go a long way in solving our problems.
 
The CHs are all so indecisive and seem to loose confidence in themselves easily.

Ask 6 people for our best pairing and you'll get 6 different answers.

All are decent. None are great.
 
NinjaFletch said:
All teams concede goals. We don't score enough goals, therefore it is a bigger issue when we do concede.

You're focusing on the wrong end of the pitch.
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Shhh hush now. Logic is not welcome here, sweet prince
 
We conceded once, from a very good goal, on that joke of a pitch and generally looked pretty good at the back tonight. Weve got one of the best defensive records in the league. Strange thread.
 
Not going to win Trebles with those players in defense, it's largely the midfield controlling the game and giving enough protection to the defense. Not scoring enough makes it looks worse.
 
It's the wrong game to point it out - hard to judge performances.

That said, I agree. I don't rate Smalling, Rojo or Jones as capable of being top defenders. Bailly has potential.
 
Our lack of a #6 is glaring. I know most people don't want a pure DM because of us allegedly being on the front foot for 80% of our matches, but we are getting exposed in the room between the CM's and the CB's time and time again.

Get a fecking proper DM in the summer.
 
Kassadin said:
Its down to the personnel than the setup. Other than Bailley, our defense is painfully average. Smalling has regressed, while Jones and Rojo are not United quality.

A top defender along with a replacement for Carrick must be our top priority in the summer. Those two alone would go a long way in solving our problems.
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Disagree-Rojo is a good Centre back but a poor left back
 
We conceded a very good goal. These things happen.
 
Kassadin said:
Its down to the personnel than the setup. Other than Bailley, our defense is painfully average. Smalling has regressed, while Jones and Rojo are not United quality.

A top defender along with a replacement for Carrick must be our top priority in the summer. Those two alone would go a long way in solving our problems.
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i dare to say Rojo has been very good this season, best of the CB lot.
 
Our defence is alright and not the main problem like most have said.

If we are going to win the title though, this defence definitely needs to be improved. We need a dominant leader at the back who is composed and organises the back four and we need to sort out the problem at LB as none have been good enough IMO. Hopefully Shaw is back to his best next season to sort out that problem.

Currently we have four good CB's but none on the level of Koscielny, David Luiz or Alderweireld.
 
SwansonsTache said:
Our lack of a #6 is glaring. I know most people don't want a pure DM because of us allegedly being on the front foot for 80% of our matches, but we are getting exposed in the room between the CM's and the CB's time and time again.

Get a fecking proper DM in the summer.
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It's not about not wanting a pure DM.

The problem is finding a DM who is also very good and quick with his passing so he doesn't suffer under a pressing game, like Scheiderlin did or Carrick does. And on top of that he's gotta be very aware, strong and capable defensively.

There are not easy qualities to find.
 
MadMike said:
It's not about not wanting a pure DM.

The problem is finding a DM who is also very good and quick with his passing so he doesn't suffer under a pressing game, like Scheiderlin did or Carrick does. And on top of that he's gotta be very aware, strong and capable defensively.

There are not easy qualities to find.
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Yeah passing is one thing, but the main two things I'd hold against Schneid and Carrick is lack of mobility (Carrick) or lack of reading of the game and intelligence (Schneid). It all becomes very obvious when a lack of reading of the game and intelligence is combined with a mediocre mobility (Schneid), Carrick redeems himself due to his passing and above average intelligence and reading of the game, which can compensate for his snail pace and acceleration.

We will never find a DM who is great on all three accounts, since that takes some Busquets prime level type of skills, but we could do worse than Fabinho imo.
 
SwansonsTache said:
Yeah passing is one thing, but the main two things I'd hold against Schneid and Carrick is lack of mobility (Carrick) or lack of reading of the game and intelligence (Schneid). It all becomes very obvious when a lack of reading of the game and intelligence is combined with a mediocre mobility (Schneid), Carrick redeems himself due to his passing and above average intelligence and reading of the game, which can compensate for his snail pace and acceleration.

We will never find a DM who is great on all three accounts, since that takes some Busquets prime level type of skills, but we could do worse than Fabinho imo.
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He looks good, Fabinho does. I'm more a fan of the Spanish school of midfielders, they all seem very comfy on the ball. I've not seen a La Masia product panic in possession yet.

My votes would go to either Romeu or Illara for that reason. Not to mention we have a burgeoning Spanish contingent at the club which would help them settle in.
 
Strange day for a thread like this.

Didn't exactly look in much worries did we, the goal aside?
 
These lost 2-1 and 1-0 to Atletico. Beat Bayern and Ajax. Finished ahead of PSV in a group something we could not do.

So it wasn't going to be the easy clean sheet you making it out to be.
 
Only conceding 2 goals more than Chelsea despite playing a lot of the season with our what? 3rd choice defensive partnership? Or Valencia missing a number of games with a broken arm?
Im lost, is this meant to be a strike against us?
 
I'm actually a lot more impressed with our defensive organisation than the so called attacking football we've been playing this season. Last season the defense was poor, but some individuals really carried us at key moments - Smalling at the start and then De Gea from christmas. We were fecked if our keeper or CB didn't show monsterous form.

This season, the individuals have been less impressive but the unit has been more solid overall. Mourinho's done a great job with the entire defensive organisation, where we have played multiple CB partnerships and still looked solid throughout.

The attack on the other hand, is suffering from the opposite problem. It relies way too much on the individuals to show up and win us a game.
 
That's the third game in the row where we have lost the lead now. It's becoming an issue
 
I blame the retreaded lot we have masquerading as full backs. Give this defence a Rose and a Walker and you'll see less of those "woah woah" moments.
 
We've conceded some silly goals but our defence is hardly leaking, we've still lost only 1 game in what like 30?

Focus on upfront first.
 
It seems we concede goals due to individual mistakes at times (eg giving away penalties or one person switching off). Its annoying but not something that would I would think needs immediate attention.

Of course, you need tobe able to win a string of 1-0s imo to win titles and rely on your defence (even individuals) to concentrate the full 90.
 
Udayan K. said:
Not going to win Trebles with those players in defense, it's largely the midfield controlling the game and giving enough protection to the defense. Not scoring enough makes it looks worse.
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Yes and that's the way forward. That's how many if not most of the best teams play nowadays. Modern managers realised that it's inefficient to keep expecting centre halves to do all the defending, so they focus more now on controlling the game through everyone. I am glad Mourinho is getting on with the program. Our fans need to stop this nostalgia we have about Vidic and Rio and how anything that is not similar is not good enough.
 
Talk about knee jerk. Jones has just come back from injury and Rojo has been moved around a bit. Prior to the we were quite settled.
 
Although we have a decent record in defence we dont have the x factor that Rio and Vidic bought. Where you felt confident that we were ok at the back. Mourinho will bring in a top class CD i'm sure in the summer to play and compliment Baillys style. Probably Jones as hes the most injury prone and one other will be sold on. I think Tuanzebe will get chances next year as well, as Mourinhos spoke highly of him more than once.
 
I agree that up top is the main issue, but it doesn't mean us not being strong enough at the back can't be talked about too (whether you agree or not). For some reason the caf only seems to be able to deal in black and white extremes at the moment. Fwiw, I think the defence is just ok, but screams 6th place.

A number of goals we've given away are changing the game from us being on the front foot looking like we can score more, to at best evening things out. Tonight isn't the biggest deal, I don't know why people are focussing on it as if this is entirely about one goal in one game. It's just another example of it.
When we drop points because of it in the league, it's a problem though.


TheReligion said:
Talk about knee jerk. Jones has just come back from injury and Rojo has been moved around a bit. Prior to the we were quite settled.
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:rolleyes: knew there would be 'kneejerk' comment, even though this has happened regularly over the season, which I stated as much in the op. It's obviously going to be raised when it happens and not when it doesn't. Pointing something out as it's happened isn't kneejerk.
We've not been settled in the slightest. Quite the opposite. The selection has been all over the show for a variety of reasons. That's part of the point of the thread though. We need a strong partnership.
 
I agree with the OP, I always feel like a soft-ish goal could materialise at any moment. Empires are built on the Ferdinand/Vidic model, not what we currently have. Bailly is the only one I currently rate long term.
 
cyberman said:
Only conceding 2 goals more than Chelsea despite playing a lot of the season with our what? 3rd choice defensive partnership? Or Valencia missing a number of games with a broken arm?
Im lost, is this meant to be a strike against us?
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Since their loss at Arsenal Chelsea have played with the same back 7 players at the back (GK+5 man defense+Kante) without missing a beat. They only rotate Pedro/Willian and Matic/Fabregas.

Conceding only 2 less than the league leaders and less than a goal per game is certainly better than fine. The CBs that have played most minutes for us in the PL have less minutes combined that Azpilicueta.
 
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