The devil's advocate

[Dve]

When seemingly everyone agrees the Glazers are terrible owners, some should also speak their case. The Glazers are terrible owners because they only care about money. They don´t care about results. And the proof of that is the results.

Well, they are business men, after all, that´s their job. But it makes a hell lot of sense also in a business sense to win something. That´s pretty obvious. Actually, it cannot possible be so that winning or not winning does not make a difference, also for business. How many United fans would there be in Sweden if United up through history played in the Championship. And the Glazers are not idiots, are they, how did they make their money. And if they didn´t care about winning titles, how could they be in a board with Bobby Charlton and Alex Ferguson.

But they are idiots, because they hired a banker to deal with football matters. Just that he´s not. Woodward is doing the checks and balances, and by all accounts, he´s good at it. But he´s not dealing with football matters. Why would Glazers hire him to deal with football matters, he - who does not know much about it. Like I said, the Glazers are not idiots. You can´t blame Woodward for the players that have been brought in. That would be a discussion between the scouting department and the manager. The best Woodward can do is to hire the best people to deal with football matters. And he did. He hired Mourinho. Not the third or the second best, but at that time still regarded as the best manager in the world. He can do that, and he can say “yes” when the football people want a midfielder.


The total spending of clubs in the PL over the last 5 years:

https://www.transfermarkt.com/premier-league/fuenfjahresvergleich/wettbewerb/GB1

Top 6:

1. Manchester City: €-668.55m

2. Manchester United: €-538.75m

3. Arsenal: €-297.64m

4. Everton: €-250.47m

5. Brighton €-239.64m

6. Wolverhampton: €-228.72m



So what more can Woodward do, then. Well, he can keep his job under a new Saudi Arabian regime that will give him a lot more money to throw at the managers. That would make him popular. He could buy Mbappe.

The Glazers and Woodward want United to win titles. The only evidence to the contrary, is the results. I fell. Therefore I wanted to fall.

Maybe hire a sports director, and take away some power from the manager, and thus, some part of United´s culture.

 

[Snow]

A more detailed version of your thread.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/a-detailed-look-at-uniteds-finances.453021/

 

[TrustInOle]

I think a majority of the fan base areaanti Glazer, not because they don't put money into recruitment, but more the fact they have shown no signs of planning over the last7 years to improve their situation. Rinse and repeat a manager and trust them to make all decision, whilst employing 4 managers with totally opposing philosophies each time. The fact the training ground and stadium are being neglected. The media PR stunts claiming we have a progressive plan in motion yet show no evidenceof this.

Now in terms of making money, they are top notch, but United will continue you make money without them, so i fail to see what they offer?

 

[Handré1990]

Isn’t it supposed to be Devil’s advocate?

 

[Dve]

I think a majority of the fan base areaanti Glazer, not because they don't put money into recruitment, but more the fact they have shown no signs of planning over the last7 years to improve their situation. Rinse and repeat a manager and trust them to make all decision, whilst employing 4 managers with totally opposing philosophies each time. The fact the training ground and stadium are being neglected. The media PR stunts claiming we have a progressive plan in motion yet show no evidenceof this.

Now in terms of making money, they are top notch, but United will continue you make money without them, so i fail to see what they offer?

While at the same time, asking for more of it.

 

[Dve]

Isn’t it supposed to be Devil’s advocate?

You could be into something there. Something felt wrong, but I thought it was my spleen.

 

[Kostur]

I liked the devil's lawyer more to be fair.

 

[Dve]

I liked the devil's lawyer more to be fair.

I refuse to change it back.

 

[Handré1990]

You could be into something there. Something felt wrong, but I thought it was my spleen.

Hope your spleen is OK!

 

[Greck]

I think a majority of the fan base areaanti Glazer, not because they don't put money into recruitment, but more the fact they have shown no signs of planning over the last7 years to improve their situation. Rinse and repeat a manager and trust them to make all decision, whilst employing 4 managers with totally opposing philosophies each time. The fact the training ground and stadium are being neglected. The media PR stunts claiming we have a progressive plan in motion yet show no evidenceof this.

Now in terms of making money, they are top notch, but United will continue you make money without them, so i fail to see what they offer?

The majority complaint revolves around a lack of spending let's be honest, which is also compounded by what I suspect to be apologists of failed managers trying to give their candidates excuses for failure. The lack of spending narrative is so bs I'm constantly amazed on how widely accepted a myth can get.

The lack of football knowledge, lack of foresight and wisdom and rookie board level management criticisms are justified though. If we kept our protests to this the football world would take us more seriously I feel

 

[TrustInOle]

The majority complaint revolves around a lack of spending let's be honest, which is also compounded what I suspect to be apologists of failed managers trying to give their candidates excuse for failure. The lack of spending narrative is so bs I'm constantly amazed on how widely accepted a myth can get. The lack of football knowledge and rookie board level management is justified though

Nowhere do I say the Glazers havent spent money? Actually said the opposite, they do spend, just not wisely, with no plan and always with the sole intention of covering their own arses. So lets not try turn this into another narrative.

 

[Greck]

Nowhere do I say the Glazers havent spent money? Actually said the opposite, they do spend, just not wisely, with no plan and always with the sole intention of covering their own arses. So lets not try turn this into another narrative.

Are you kidding me right now? Besides who's talking about you?

 

[TrustInOle]

Are you kidding me right now? Besides who's talking about you?

No? What are getting at? Literally 3 posts above I state they have spent on recruitment? Also you tagged me and made that comment, how am I not to think your talking about me?

 

[RyRy11]

When seemingly everyone agrees the Glazers are terrible owners, some should also speak their case. The Glazers are terrible owners because they only care about money. They don´t care about results. And the proof of that is the results.

Well, they are business men, after all, that´s their job. But it makes a hell lot of sense also in a business sense to win something. That´s pretty obvious. Actually, it cannot possible be so that winning or not winning does not make a difference, also for business. How many United fans would there be in Sweden if United up through history played in the Championship. And the Glazers are not idiots, are they, how did they make their money. And if they didn´t care about winning titles, how could they be in a board with Bobby Charlton and Alex Ferguson.

But they are idiots, because they hired a banker to deal with football matters. Just that he´s not. Woodward is doing the checks and balances, and by all accounts, he´s good at it. But he´s not dealing with football matters. Why would Glazers hire him to deal with football matters, he - who does not know much about it. Like I said, the Glazers are not idiots. You can´t blame Woodward for the players that have been brought in. That would be a discussion between the scouting department and the manager. The best Woodward can do is to hire the best people to deal with football matters. And he did. He hired Mourinho. Not the third or the second best, but at that time still regarded as the best manager in the world. He can do that, and he can say “yes” when the football people want a midfielder.


The total spending of clubs in the PL over the last 5 years:

https://www.transfermarkt.com/premier-league/fuenfjahresvergleich/wettbewerb/GB1

Top 6:

1. Manchester City: €-668.55m

2. Manchester United: €-538.75m

3. Arsenal: €-297.64m

4. Everton: €-250.47m

5. Brighton €-239.64m

6. Wolverhampton: €-228.72m



So what more can Woodward do, then. Well, he can keep his job under a new Saudi Arabian regime that will give him a lot more money to throw at the managers. That would make him popular. He could buy Mbappe.

The Glazers and Woodward want United to win titles. The only evidence to the contrary, is the results. I fell. Therefore I wanted to fall.

Maybe hire a sports director, and take away some power from the manager, and thus, some part of United´s culture.

So you’re basically saying it’s down to the managers? I wish I knew who hired them?

 

[Adnan]

Woodward letting the manager pilot the recruitment strategy is his fault and it has been very costly thus far. The Glazers letting the problem fester is ultimately their fault.

When managers are allowed to pilot the recruitment strategy and use their independent scouts to sign players and we still constantly punch below our weight, then fingers need to be pointed at Woodward and the Glazers.

 

[Sky1981]

Woodward letting the manager pilot the recruitment strategy is his fault and it has been very costly thus far. The Glazers letting the problem fester is ultimately their fault.

When managers are allowed to pilot the recruitment strategy and use their independent scouts to sign players and we still constantly punch below our weight, then fingers need to be pointed at Woodward and the Glazers.

It's a catch 22.

Woodward would work for managers like ferguson with his hands off approach. Anything short of a great manager at helm is bad for ed type of ceo.

You imagine fergie reigned by a dof who's worse than him and could be a wrench on a well oiled machine.

Gill was seen as our best ceo dof rolled into one, intruth he just happens to preside over the greatest manager of all time all he gotta do is enjoy the ride and not interfering with the great one. Was he really good? Or was fergie that good that it doesnt matter

 

[cyril C]

I think a majority of the fan base areaanti Glazer, not because they don't put money into recruitment, but more the fact they have shown no signs of planning over the last7 years to improve their situation. Rinse and repeat a manager and trust them to make all decision, whilst employing 4 managers with totally opposing philosophies each time. The fact the training ground and stadium are being neglected. The media PR stunts claiming we have a progressive plan in motion yet show no evidenceof this.

Now in terms of making money, they are top notch, but United will continue you make money without them, so i fail to see what they offer?

Look, there has been anti-Glazer campaign since Day 1 when the Glazer taken over, so nothing to do with money spent or Club's results. We had the yellow/green scarves while Fergi was extremely successful. It was simply anti-American or anti-business-men, which picked up a lot of passengers lately when results not good. Should someone else taken over, there will be anti-XXX campaign before a single dollar is spent , which may heat up if we don't win the league next season...

 

[Adnan]

It's a catch 22.

Woodward would work for managers like ferguson with his hands off approach. Anything short of a great manager at helm is bad for ed type of ceo.

You imagine fergie reigned by a dof who's worse than him and could be a wrench on a well oiled machine.

Gill was seen as our best ceo dof rolled into one, intruth he just happens to preside over the greatest manager of all time all he gotta do is enjoy the ride and not interfering with the great one. Was he really good? Or was fergie that good that it doesnt matter

Fergie was the DoF and had a handful of scouts with most things stored in his brain. The issue arose when he retired and Moyes was appointed with Woodward as the new CEO. Moyes was reported to be shocked that their wasn't a modern structure/player data base to tap into. Gill imo was the main culprit in that regard and should've ensured a smoother transition for Woodward and Moyes in that regard and he failed due to his incompetence. Woodward then presided to fix this mess and has done a good job by bringing in some highly reputable names from home and abroad and a plethora of scouts and we now see very positive signs at academy level which should bear fruit in the next 12 to 18 months.

Woodward's major mistake is failing to see that the club after constant failures needs a specialist to pilot the recruitment at the club. If Woodward can come around to such a idea then I personally don't see the issue with him.

 

[Zarlak]

Random bolded words make me look like I have a point.

 

[TrustInOle]

Look, there has been anti-Glazer campaign since Day 1 when the Glazer taken over, so nothing to do with money spent or Club's results. We had the yellow/green scarves while Fergi was extremely successful. It was simply anti-American or anti-business-men, which picked up a lot of passengers lately when results not good. Should someone else taken over, there will be anti-XXX campaign before a single dollar is spent , which may heat up if we don't win the league next season...

Wow! Im fairly certain it wasnt anything to do with 'anti-business man' and more the amount of debt they were buying the club into.

 

[cyril C]

Wow! Im fairly certain it wasnt anything to do with 'anti-business man' and more the amount of debt they were buying the club into.

Initially when they bought the Club with this PIK debt perhaps. But the "campaign" did not stop after the loan was managed downward, nor it stopped after Utd went back to stock market hence further reduce debt. The goal post might have been shifted but I am pretty sure it was the same group.

 

[Roboc7]

The Glazers aren’t great businessman, they were born into this and have it all handed to them by their father. Their not here because of their intelligence or because they are competent.

They are doing a terrible job of running United and an NFL franchise but their making money so that’s all that matters. United provides them with not just dividends but loans with minimal interest and consultancy fees for being incompetent. It’s finance over football, sure they’d prefer Utd to be successful but they are probably incapable and will only pay any real attention if their pockets are affected.

 

[The Irish Connection]

When seemingly everyone agrees the Glazers are terrible owners, some should also speak their case. The Glazers are terrible owners because they only care about money. They don´t care about results. And the proof of that is the results.

Well, they are business men, after all, that´s their job. But it makes a hell lot of sense also in a business sense to win something. That´s pretty obvious. Actually, it cannot possible be so that winning or not winning does not make a difference, also for business. How many United fans would there be in Sweden if United up through history played in the Championship. And the Glazers are not idiots, are they, how did they make their money. And if they didn´t care about winning titles, how could they be in a board with Bobby Charlton and Alex Ferguson.

But they are idiots, because they hired a banker to deal with football matters. Just that he´s not. Woodward is doing the checks and balances, and by all accounts, he´s good at it. But he´s not dealing with football matters. Why would Glazers hire him to deal with football matters, he - who does not know much about it. Like I said, the Glazers are not idiots. You can´t blame Woodward for the players that have been brought in. That would be a discussion between the scouting department and the manager. The best Woodward can do is to hire the best people to deal with football matters. And he did. He hired Mourinho. Not the third or the second best, but at that time still regarded as the best manager in the world. He can do that, and he can say “yes” when the football people want a midfielder.


The total spending of clubs in the PL over the last 5 years:

https://www.transfermarkt.com/premier-league/fuenfjahresvergleich/wettbewerb/GB1

Top 6:

1. Manchester City: €-668.55m

2. Manchester United: €-538.75m

3. Arsenal: €-297.64m

4. Everton: €-250.47m

5. Brighton €-239.64m

6. Wolverhampton: €-228.72m



So what more can Woodward do, then. Well, he can keep his job under a new Saudi Arabian regime that will give him a lot more money to throw at the managers. That would make him popular. He could buy Mbappe.

The Glazers and Woodward want United to win titles. The only evidence to the contrary, is the results. I fell. Therefore I wanted to fall.

Maybe hire a sports director, and take away some power from the manager, and thus, some part of United´s culture.

the fact that Everton and Brighton are in the top 5 spenders and man city, who bought the core of their squad before prices went astronomical shows that the net spend table doesn't paint the full picture at all. since man city were already ahead of us in quality of squad in the early 2010s, we should have been outstanding them by at least 25% to catch up, similar to what Mourinho said at one point. And that's without mentioning that Woodward and the board have clearly meddled with transfers and targets over the years.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

They have shown little desire to aim for the top.
With spending and recruitment. We got the most money or have had, but do not spend at that level.

It is strange why they do not seem to want to improve our efficiency by hiring a director of football or just replacing Woodward.
Wasting money and spending too little looks like a stupid combination. If you do not want to spend big you should spend it well.

 

[stepic]

Random bolded words make me look like I have a point.

stole my post, damn you

 

[Inigo Montoya]

You could be into something there. Something felt wrong, but I thought it was my spleen.

Devil’s kidneys perhaps

 

[Ish]

Devil’s kidneys perhaps

Anyway, wasn’t this exact thread on here a week ago?

 

[Fosu-Mens]

When seemingly everyone agrees the Glazers are terrible owners, some should also speak their case. The Glazers are terrible owners because they only care about money. They don´t care about results. And the proof of that is the results.

Well, they are business men, after all, that´s their job. But it makes a hell lot of sense also in a business sense to win something. That´s pretty obvious. Actually, it cannot possible be so that winning or not winning does not make a difference, also for business. How many United fans would there be in Sweden if United up through history played in the Championship. And the Glazers are not idiots, are they, how did they make their money. And if they didn´t care about winning titles, how could they be in a board with Bobby Charlton and Alex Ferguson.

But they are idiots, because they hired a banker to deal with football matters. Just that he´s not. Woodward is doing the checks and balances, and by all accounts, he´s good at it. But he´s not dealing with football matters. Why would Glazers hire him to deal with football matters, he - who does not know much about it. Like I said, the Glazers are not idiots. You can´t blame Woodward for the players that have been brought in. That would be a discussion between the scouting department and the manager. The best Woodward can do is to hire the best people to deal with football matters. And he did. He hired Mourinho. Not the third or the second best, but at that time still regarded as the best manager in the world. He can do that, and he can say “yes” when the football people want a midfielder.


The total spending of clubs in the PL over the last 5 years:

https://www.transfermarkt.com/premier-league/fuenfjahresvergleich/wettbewerb/GB1

Top 6:

1. Manchester City: €-668.55m

2. Manchester United: €-538.75m

3. Arsenal: €-297.64m

4. Everton: €-250.47m

5. Brighton €-239.64m

6. Wolverhampton: €-228.72m



So what more can Woodward do, then. Well, he can keep his job under a new Saudi Arabian regime that will give him a lot more money to throw at the managers. That would make him popular. He could buy Mbappe.

The Glazers and Woodward want United to win titles. The only evidence to the contrary, is the results. I fell. Therefore I wanted to fall.

Maybe hire a sports director, and take away some power from the manager, and thus, some part of United´s culture.

Causality? Root causes?

 

[The Irish Connection]

Wasting money and spending too little looks like a stupid combination. If you do not want to spend big you should spend it well.

Exactly, if they didn't want to spend big they should have hired a director of football to use the money well, instead of denying managers players, dragging transfers out and going for 3rd or 4th choice bargain bin players like Herrera, Schneiderlin, Darmian etc. and also, if a manager didn't work out, the next coach would still be able to use the players bought. I know we don't have direct evidence of the above being due to Woodward but all signs point there.

 

[Dve]

Anyway, wasn’t this exact thread on here a week ago?

I hope not. I case, I certainly missed out on it.

So you’re basically saying it’s down to the managers? I wish I knew who hired them?

It´s just that all appointments of managers seemed reasonable at the time they where made. For different reasons. I can´t remember the fans being strongly against any of the them. The power of hindsight, you know. What if Woodward did like many want - replace Ole with Poch. Imagine Poch failed. That would be Woodward´s fault, right?

 

[ivaldo]

Random bolded words make me look like I have a point.

Don't forget the odd italics.

 

[red thru&thru]

Or, Malcolm died and everything went to 6 children. Now, if any of you have siblings, do you all agree on how things should be? Do you think that there have been many disputes within the family at how United is run? Maybe some of them are in it for the money and maybe some of them actually want to see the club succeed?

 

[Fosu-Mens]

The power of hindsight, you know. What if Woodward did like many want - replace Ole with Poch. Imagine Poch failed. That would be Woodward´s fault, right?

The difference is that Poch seems to prefer a playstyle that is not outdated, and based on the progress Tottenham had without spending stupid amount in the market were able to improve the team through training and coaching... Two elements that would make him less impacted by having an assumed incompetent organization above him fumbling around in the transfermarket.

Going from an extreme possession-oriented manager like LVG to the complete opposite with Mourinho does not make sense... Would be equivalent to manufacturing pens one year and then producing pencils the next. While they are both used for writing, the manufacturing processes and materials used are completely different.

 

[Will Singh]

Obviously the Glazers aren’t idiots and yes they are business men and they want us to win titles, I agree with you on all counts.

What the Glazers haven’t don’t is plan, under SAF we had everything a club needs from him and Gill, when SAF left the Glazers should have had a plan to move forward. The reason we’ve spent so much and been through all these managers is because someone higher up ain’t done a good job of where the club needs to be in 10 years. They’ve probably got a 10 year business plan for the finical side broken down to probably hour by hour. The football side has suffered due to not planning imo.

Do that’s the reason most hate the glazers oh and for the fact they’ve sucked us dry...

 

[Red00012]

Don't forget the odd italics.

Essays make me scroll past them, I didn’t enjoy them in school mind you.

 

[Ish]

A more detailed version of your thread.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/a-detailed-look-at-uniteds-finances.453021/

Maybe this one @Dve

 

[RyRy11]

I hope not. I case, I certainly missed out on it.

It´s just that all appointments of managers seemed reasonable at the time they where made. For different reasons. I can´t remember the fans being strongly against any of the them. The power of hindsight, you know. What if Woodward did like many want - replace Ole with Poch. Imagine Poch failed. That would be Woodward´s fault, right?

The only manager I wanted post Fergie was Pep. I wasn’t excited about Moyes or OGS, LVG and Mou weren’t my first choices but they had the possibility to prove me wrong.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

The only manager I wanted post Fergie was Pep. I wasn’t excited about Moyes or OGS, LVG and Mou weren’t my first choices but they had the possibility to prove me wrong.

I always felt Klopp was a better fit given his rebuilding experience at BD

 

[Adisa]

Been a while since I've seen Sir Bobby at a game?

 

[RyRy11]

I always felt Klopp was a better fit given his rebuilding experience at BD

I would have taken him over the four we have so far but pep was always the guy to me. Not sure who I would take now seeing as both of those options are dead, Poch seems like a good option but I’m still not sold on him.