The Double Draft - R1: DavidG vs Skizzo/Pat

[Deleted member 101472]

Marcelo has been replaced by Nobby Stiles. Admittedly, Totti was causing some problems between my midfield and defence, however we now have the Manchester United man famous for nullifying the threat of Eusebio in a world cup semi-final renowned for his ability to work for the team, Stiles is a true hard-man and classic holding defensive midfielder, and will allow Didi, Nedved, Moreno and to some extent Petit to feel more safe in attacking. Stiles undoubtedly means that Totti instantly has less of an effect on this game.

Maldini moves to left back where he is again arguably the greatest of all time. His intelligence means that he will know when to get forward, and as detailed in the video below he could be hugely effective there, particularly the goal at around 52 seconds. With his buddy Costacurta beside him, that Solskjaer and Mcgrain threat just became even less intimidating. Bellerin remains on the right, with Tresor now closer to him, who's pace, physique and excellent reading of the game will ensure that this lethal left side of Skizzo's doesn't have it all their way. With Moreno still tasked with helping out the right side defensively, I feel the threat there still isn't as huge as being made out.

Nedved is willing to help defensively but has much less expectation on that side of his game, and he is encouraged to go and be the difference maker in his free role in all the area's behind Muller. petit, now having Stiles to help out in midfield, can also cover the left hand side of defence, as he did many times in his career, if the game requires it.

Maldini video-
@Edgar Allan Pillow please update whatever needs to be done

 

[Deleted member 101472]

@Skizzo Making this change now as I am gonna be gone pretty soon for the rest of the day and wouldn't be able to later. notice that the vote is now closer since before i started the post changing my tactics but this does address an obvious issue with Totti effectively being handed all the space in the world with my previous set-up which is devastating.

Good luck for the remainder of the game, I hope it turns out to be a draw as it's probably the most likely result

 

[Enigma_87]

Yeah, that's a good sub from DavidG. This is pretty much how I see things as his best line up in this particular game, especially dealing with Totti as S/P star man in attack. Nedved with more insideish role is also filling the gap between midfield and Muller.

As for Skizzo/Pat their original formation is still what I think it's best for them so not many objections. This change draws the game a bit closer, will decide on this later.

 

[mazhar13]

With Petit and Stiles in the midfield, David's team looks much more solid now. Maldini on the left pretty much makes his team much more solid as well.

At this point, the match is much closer between the two. Still, though, I feel that van Hanegem is going to be crucial for S/P in order to bring the best out of Totti. With van Hanegem mainly operating on the left, I struggle to see how David's team is really going to take care of him. Didi's not going to work hard to close him down, and giving van Hanegem space to pick out passes is going to be an issue. Plus, as a box-to-box midfielder, van Hanegem will be perfect for Totti to play off of when he's getting closed down by Stiles. What will David's team do then? Get Moreno closer to van Hanegem?

For David's team going forward, he also looks quite threatening. Gerd Muller is always a huge threat to any defence, and the main focus against these sort of attackers is to provide them with as few opportunities as possible. Does S/P's team do that? In my opinion, they do. Verratti is a tenacious little bugger who'll make any player work their socks off to maintain possession and get the ball going forward. Didi, however, is one of the best playmakers around, and van Hanegem isn't that tenacious himself, so I think he can have an influence in the game. Still, with Rijkaard in there, I'm not sure how influential Moreno could really be without someone supporting him going forward. Petit, to me, isn't that great going forward as an outlet (not as good as van Hanegem at least), and David doesn't have much of a wide threat anyways.

In my opinion, S/P edge this due to van Hanegem being the decisive factor for me.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

@mazhar13

How do you see Van hanegem dealing with didi going the opposite way ? Didi was known as being very good at intercepting , and Van hanegem's one main weakness was his pace . I don't think the game would be determined between the battle of those two , especially with Moreno helping out to cover the right side of my defensive third , where Van Hanegem would likely operate .

 

[Pat_Mustard]

With Petit and Stiles in the midfield, David's team looks much more solid now. Maldini on the left pretty much makes his team much more solid as well.

At this point, the match is much closer between the two. Still, though, I feel that van Hanegem is going to be crucial for S/P in order to bring the best out of Totti. With van Hanegem mainly operating on the left, I struggle to see how David's team is really going to take care of him. Didi's not going to work hard to close him down, and giving van Hanegem space to pick out passes is going to be an issue. Plus, as a box-to-box midfielder, van Hanegem will be perfect for Totti to play off of when he's getting closed down by Stiles. What will David's team do then? Get Moreno closer to van Hanegem?

For David's team going forward, he also looks quite threatening. Gerd Muller is always a huge threat to any defence, and the main focus against these sort of attackers is to provide them with as few opportunities as possible. Does S/P's team do that? In my opinion, they do. Verratti is a tenacious little bugger who'll make any player work their socks off to maintain possession and get the ball going forward. Didi, however, is one of the best playmakers around, and van Hanegem isn't that tenacious himself, so I think he can have an influence in the game. Still, with Rijkaard in there, I'm not sure how influential Moreno could really be without someone supporting him going forward. Petit, to me, isn't that great going forward as an outlet (not as good as van Hanegem at least), and David doesn't have much of a wide threat anyways.

In my opinion, S/P edge this due to van Hanegem being the decisive factor for me.

Cheers mate. I love van Hanegem so its always nice to see him getting praise. The only thing I'd disagree with is

van Hanegem isn't that tenacious himself

He was a hard worker, a big strong bastard and very powerful in the tackle, with a particular penchant for slide tackles. As Cruyff said about him

“Van Hanegem has one advantage over me. When I have a bad game, I’m useless. When Van Hanegem has a bad game, he rolls up his sleeves and starts tackling.”

I love picking him in drafts because he's such a complete package. Outstanding passer, strong defensively, excellent goalscoring record, can function as either the main man (as he was for Feyenoord) or a top notch member of the supporting cast, as he was for Cruyff's Dutch team.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Tbh, I liked DavidG's earlier formation. Bellerin is the weakest player on pitch and putting him in a back 5 made sense. Now he's exposed to Henry/Cabrini.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Tbh, I liked DavidG's earlier formation. Bellerin is the weakest player on pitch and putting him in a back 5 made sense. Now he's exposed to Henry/Cabrini.

With stiles nullifying totti ( with help from Costacurta if required ) tresor isn't going to just stand there , nor is Moreno who as mentioned , was very adept at tracking back in la maquina system , so I don't see why he can't help out here.

 

[Ecstatic]

My name is Carlos B. (on the left) and my comments are coming soon.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Some perfect examples in there of him defending really well , his pace is just so good that he can almost afford to make a mistake because he has the quickness to make up for it .

 

[Ecstatic]

1. Now, I will analyse Pat/Skizzo because it will take less time.
2. Tomorrow, I will analyse DavidG: 1st team, changes, 2nd team
3. Then, I read the comments/answers and other debates
4. After that, I will make a decision and vote.

 

[mazhar13]

How do you see Van hanegem dealing with didi going the opposite way ? Didi was known as being very good at intercepting , and Van hanegem's one main weakness was his pace . I don't think the game would be determined between the battle of those two , especially with Moreno helping out to cover the right side of my defensive third , where Van Hanegem would likely operate

Didi, however, is one of the best playmakers around, and van Hanegem isn't that tenacious himself, so I think he can have an influence in the game.

I appreciate Pat for posting some GIF's showing Wim's good tackling and hard working nature, but he's no Neeskens. I don't see Wim being tenacious or aggressive enough to unsettle Didi. Yeah, he'll do a very good job defensively as a box-to-box midfielder, but I don't see him doing a special job on Didi, just focusing on his own natural defensive game. In this sense, Didi can thrive and could be a key outlet for Gerd. As I said earlier, no one can stop Gerd; teams have to stop the supply to Gerd.

However, given that David's team is so central and not offering enough width (yeah, Nedved can, but is that really it), David needs good wing backs to provide some good wide threat. Moreno himself is quite central, and without Marcelo, David's left wide threat has just been reduced. I don't see Bellerin as a wing back either; he looks more like a traditional full back to me who offers great pace and decent crossing. With the middle being so congested, I see this playing into S/P's hands, particularly as they have such a dogged, hardworking, defensively strong midfield.

All in all, both teams have their weaknesses, but I think S/P just edges this.

 

[Ecstatic]

I see the rationale and the philosophy: 'Total Football' version Holland 1974.

Here, we have a 4-3-3 system with:

- A False-9: Totti playing the role of Cruyff
- A Left wing-forward (Henry) playing the role of Rensenbrink
- A Right wing-forward - legacy player - trying to play the role of Rep

- Van Hanegem playing the role of Van Hanegem
- Rijkaard playing the role of Neeskens: Neeskens is more 'Total Football' while Rijkaard is more defensive-minded. On the other hand, Rijkaard is also brilliant as a CB and Neeskens is unique.
- Verratti vs Jansen.

- Cabrini superb offensive LB
- Kohler fantastic stopper
- Olsen: sweeper - one of the 94 sweepers in the world nicknamed ' The Beckenbauer'. I guess we have here the 'Danish Beckenbauer'
- Mc Grain = Suurbier

- Jennings = Jongbloaed

In theory, the key words are:

- versatility
- mobility: not the quality n1 of Verratti BUT he is a 'youth player' and has exceptional passing/technical skills
- hard pressing
- 'Dutch aggressiveness'

TBH, I don't know very well Mc Grain. For obvious reasons the left-side is more 'Total Football' than the right-side.

Tomorrow, I have to read some articles about Moreno and Didi to analyse DavidG

 

[Ecstatic]

Regarding DavidG:

- Nedved-Maldini impressive partnership
- maybe more physical impact
- Buffon the best GK of course

I will continue tomorrow but my choice is not made because I need to have a better understanding of his right side!

To be followed

 

[Gio]

@Downcast Re McGrain. An upgrade on Suurbier I'd say and regarded as the best in the world or thereabouts in the mid-70s.

It's a brilliant back six really.

 

[Ecstatic]

@Downcast Re McGrain. An upgrade on Suurbier I'd say and regarded as the best in the world or thereabouts in the mid-70s.

It's a brilliant back six really.

Yeah, sure.

- Kohler: strong stopper but also excellent with the ball, one of my preferred stoppers. 10 times better than Godin imho
- Rijkaard a beast
- Cabrini: I had to work on the Zona Mista in the last draft so I know his value! I have never 'played a draft' with R. Carlos while I've played my 1st draft in the newbies with Cabrini. That is why, the best available option was Roberto Carlos, another lovely player
- Morten Olsen: strong reputation in Germany and ... I know you have won a draft with him

When I said 'The Danish Beckenbauer': just a bit of humour.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

i dont see similarities with total football TBH nor do i think they want to replicate that.

 

[Skizzo]

i dont see similarities with total football TBH nor do i think they want to replicate that.

Not a direct replica really, at least not intentionally. Obviously the front three will interchange, and at times Rijkaard will drop in if Olsen moves up, but we dont want interchanging all over the field in a Total Football style.

 

[Skizzo]

@Downcast not that your analysis wasn't good or interesting, but I don't want you to think we're selling this as a Dutch or Barca style set up

 

[Skizzo]

Although I did like the "Van Hanegem playing the role of Van Hanegem" observation

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

With stiles nullifying totti ( with help from Costacurta if required ) tresor isn't going to just stand there , nor is Moreno who as mentioned , was very adept at tracking back in la maquina system , so I don't see why he can't help out here.

- Maldini is a great LB, but not really known for his attacking contributions. He was more defensive than offensive.
- Henry vs Bellerin is the match-up of the game. And in a back 5 he's far more protected than current.
- Marcelo and Bellerin in back 5 can very well provide the width needed.
- Nedved in a more central role (Right AM) is just perfect. with Moreno on other side, you have 4 vs 3.5 (false 9) advantage in the middle.

Imo, when facing a False 9, Sweeper > DM considering the movement of positioning. Now when Henry skins Bellerin 9which I see happening quite often), Tresor will be pulled for support stretching your defensive line. You lose Marcelo's attacking contribution, Bellerin's safety shielding has been minimized...all for adding cover to Totti, which Tresor would anyway have done adequately.

Every way I see the old formation was much better suited to your team.

 

[Ecstatic]

I see the rationale and the philosophy: 'Total Football' version Holland 1974.

I'm wrong here as I should have written something like 'It brings me back the Dutch team in the 70s'.

i dont see similarities with total football TBH nor do i think they want to replicate that.

You're right here. Yeah, they don't want to replicate Total Football and I know the essence of this draft is not to replicate a philosophy. And they have never written Total Football.

i dont see similarities with total football TBH nor do i think they want to replicate that.

My point was only to say that team is capable to play in a 'Total Football manner' IMHO, a philosophy that requires permutations.

- I see similarities between Cruyjff and Totti from a tactical perspective.
- Van Hanegem is here
- Rijkaard is a beast able to play as a CB if a CB moves forward.
- Cabrini able to own all the left wing with a Henry cutting inside.
- Verratti able to play as #6 during the game so that Rijkaard can harass the opponent sometimes.

The arrows mean:

- that Henry - let's say version Barcelona - is asked to play upfront & on the left... like Rensenbrink
- that Solkjaer has to defend on the right but to move towards the penalty area when possible... like REP [who BTW played the WC Final 1978 as a CF].
- That Totti is asked to stay upfront and organize the game..like Cruyff

@Downcast not that your analysis wasn't good or interesting, but I don't want you to think we're selling this as a Dutch or Barca style set up

I know but my analogy was simply intended to provide a different perspective

Totti - version 07/08 - played in a similar manner with Roma but I don't see a lot of similarities between:

- Vucinic and Henry
- Mancini and Solskjaer
- Perrotta & Van Hanegem
- Pizarro & Verratti
- Mexes & Kohler
- Juan & Olsen
- Doni & Jennings

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Although I did like the "Van Hanegem playing the role of Van Hanegem" observation

Bad copy of the original, imo.

 

[Ecstatic]

Bad copy of the original, imo.

Let's agree to disagree

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I'm wrong here as I should have written something like 'It brings me back the Dutch team in the 70s'.



You're right here. Yeah, they don't want to replicate Total Football and I know the essence of this draft is not to replicate a philosophy. And they have never written Total Football.



My point was only to say that team is capable to play in a 'Total Football manner' IMHO, a philosophy that requires permutations.

- I see similarities between Cruyjff and Totti from a tactical perspective.
- Van Hanegem is here
- Rijkaard is a beast able to play as a CB if a CB moves forward.
- Cabrini able to own all the left wing with a Henry cutting inside.
- Verratti able to play as #6 during the game so that Rijkaard can harass the opponent sometimes.

The arrows mean:

- that Henry - let's say version Barcelona - is asked to play upfront & on the left... like Rensenbrink
- that Solkjaer has to defend on the right but to move towards the penalty area when possible... like REP [who BTW played the WC Final 1978 as a CF].
- That Totti is asked to stay upfront and organize the game..like Cruyff



I know but my analogy was simply intended to provide a different perspective

Totti - version 07/08 - played in a similar manner with Roma but I don't see a lot of similarities between:

- Vucinic and Henry
- Mancini and Solskjaer
- Perrotta & Van Hanegem
- Pizarro & Verratti
- Mexes & Kohler
- Juan & Olsen
- Doni & Jennings

Interesting analysis. We didn't really consciously try to replicate a Total Football system but there are certain similarities in the attack, with the False 9 and the goalscoring wide attackers.

 

[Ecstatic]

@DavidG

Didi is a pure GOAT - one of the greatest central midfielders in the history of the game.

Who could be a modern (thus downgraded) equivalent of Dido in terms of style of play?

What is his role: deep-lying playmaker? Making the bridge between your impressive offensive trio and the defensive players?

Interesting analysis. We didn't really consciously try to replicate a Total Football system but there are certain similarities in the attack, with the False 9 and the goalscoring wide attackers.

Cheers

 

[P-Nut]

Completely forgot to check in on this. Interesting to read some of the debates so far. The positioning on Daves youth player combined with Totti operating as a false 9 is what is deciding the game for me. It means Bellerin will quite often become exposed to Henry/Cabrini and that can't be a good thing. He's got a solid left side so the only trouble is finding how to support Bellerby. Maybe would have been better sticking to a back 5 with Stiles still in front. Extremely defensive but with Muller in your side you're likely to nick a goal. If you can convince people the opposition won't score you win

 

[Ecstatic]

Completely forgot to check in on this. Interesting to read some of the debates so far. The positioning on Daves youth player combined with Totti operating as a false 9 is what is deciding the game for me. It means Bellerin will quite often become exposed to Henry/Cabrini and that can't be a good thing. He's got a solid left side so the only trouble is finding how to support Bellerby. Maybe would have been better sticking to a back 5 with Stiles still in front. Extremely defensive but with Muller in your side you're likely to nick a goal. If you can convince people the opposition won't score you win

Interesting point. I would say it would depend on the capacity of Moreno & Didi to cover him.

Regarding the team of DavidG, Didi is his best central midfielder - a legend in the History of the Game.

Kazi have worked on the modern remake of Brazil 58.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/remake-draft-r16-brwned-vs-kazi.418793/


@Kazi
What are your views about Didi and this game?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Who could be a modern (thus downgraded) equivalent of Dido in terms of style of play?

Kazi went for Modric (as Dido), IIRC - which was a pretty good choice, I think.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Spoiler: Dido

@Downcast

 

[Ecstatic]

@Chesterlestreet


I have lost all credibility

 

[Chesterlestreet]

@Chesterlestreet


I have lost all credibility

No, man - typos are allowed. I just like the idea of Dido as a GOAT midfielder. I reckon she'd do well in that role.

 

[Enigma_87]

Kazi went for Modric (as Dido), IIRC - which was a pretty good choice, I think.

Modric is a bit different IMO from what I've read about him. Didi was deployed deeper but in his defensive game he didn't want to get stuck in, but rather use his reading of the game and positional sense. IMO the modern day comparison should be Pirlo rather than modric. It's not like Didi was not physical or fit of course. FK specialist, great vision and passing range coupled with excellent shot in him.

I'll find some quotes on him when I'm home probably bit later.

 

[Raees]

Didi doesn't get much love on the caf. Whenever I have had him in my team, lost the game and notice he doesn't hold much value. People see him as a silky CM with pretty passing and dribbling, but not a match-winning force.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Don't think Pirlo is offensive enough - that's the main problem. Modric is more likely to venture forward that extra yard and involve himself offensively, which is more in line with Dido's game.

It's boxes that have to be ticked, though, of course - as was the case with all the GOATs/remakes. You won't find an ideal match for the greatest players. Pirlo is more similar in some respects, that's obvious - he's better on the ball, the better passer, has the FK trait down to a much greater extent, etc.

 

[Raees]

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/raees-vs-eap-all-time-3-year-peak-auction-draft.405055/

I had Matthaus there, with Didi in midfield. Both of them considered top 5 CM's of all time and still ended up getting beat on mostly midfield issues with Didi being an issue.

Hard midfielder to get the best out of. What would be the best partners for him in an ideal fantasy formation?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Just glancing at the thread, it seems people had issues with your front trio as well, @Raees. Plus EAP's team looks pretty much spot on. Plus, it was a narrow enough defeat.

Other factors may include: Andrade being an old-timer and a player not everyone will appreciate. Some might also prefer Matthäus in a more offensive role (i.e. the Didi role in your team - or something closer to that).

All in all, it doesn't seem obvious that Didi - as such - was the reason you lost the match.

 

[Enigma_87]

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/raees-vs-eap-all-time-3-year-peak-auction-draft.405055/

I had Matthaus there, with Didi in midfield. Both of them considered top 5 CM's of all time and still ended up getting beat on mostly midfield issues with Didi being an issue.
Hard midfielder to get the best out of. What would be the best partners for him in an ideal fantasy formation?

Wow that's an excellent team mate. No weaknesses from what I can see.

Don't think Pirlo is offensive enough - that's the main problem. Modric is more likely to venture forward that extra yard and involve himself offensively, which is more in line with Dido's game.

It's boxes that have to be ticked, though, of course - as was the case with all the GOATs/remakes. You won't find an ideal match for the greatest players. Pirlo is more similar in some respects, that's obvious - he's better on the ball, the better passer, has the FK trait down to a much greater extent, etc.

Porto used to be more attacking in the early days and carried the ball forward much more.

Regardless, Didi is one of the greatest midfielders in his time, shame there is a little footage of him, same as Zizinho who @harms picked not so long ago.

 

[Raees]

Just glancing at the thread, it seems people had issues with your front trio as well, @Raees. Plus EAP's team looks pretty much spot on. Plus, it was a narrow enough defeat.

Other factors may include: Andrade being an old-timer and a player not everyone will appreciate. Some might also prefer Matthäus in a more offensive role (i.e. the Didi role in your team - or something closer to that).

All in all, it doesn't seem obvious that Didi - as such - was the reason you lost the match.

I agree that the chemistry of my team wasn't quite spot on, but I feel sometimes when a team has that many good players as I felt I had in that lineup, not to mention the quality of defenders I had in that game.. my team had more than enough matchwinners to take that game.

Anyway back to Didi, there was some confusion about what his best role is.. I was rewatching his videos just now and he is brilliant going forwards, beats men for fun and I agree he's not the strongest in the tackle or a defensive workshorse, but he is different to Pirlo in that he's a runner with the ball and can break lines. He is actually very similar to a Pogba (althetic, very very technical but not really road runner types), but one who can control the tempo of a game better. His weakness is his lacksadaisical style and I think on the Caf, we tend to love guys who have that huge level of fight mixed with artistry and those guys who are pure joga bonito like a Didi get a hard time on here.

He's a beautiful footballer and for me has more than enough to his game to be seen as a game changer, even though he does produce these game changing moments in small bursts, rather than be hammer and tong at it all game.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Porto used to be more attacking in the early days and carried the ball forward much more.

Yes, but that isn't Porto in his prime

And so you lose the prime (or top, top) factor. Which is important.