The EL final loss: a measured response

[AgentSmith]

I appreciate the sentiment of trying to take a step back from the raw emotion of a one-off match to look at the season more broadly. I agree that there’s been tangible progress this season and we have the basis of a young team filled with quality that’s ready to take the next step with the aid of proper investment this summer. Ole has earned the right to be here next season and to be given the funds he needs this summer.

Having said that, I think you’re off in your assessment of the game. Villarreal have some good players and Emery is clearly a better manager than his Arsenal reign would indicate but it feels odd to praise our comfortable 2nd place as an indicator of progress but then ignore that they finished 7th in one of the weakest incarnations of La Liga for some time. This was a Villarreal team that we are comfortably better than and they played like they knew that fact. If you removed the colours of the shirts and the context of the occasion it would look like United and Burnley were playing. We just couldn’t break down a low-block defence that relied on set pieces as their main attacking threat (a depressingly reliable approach against us).

I also don’t see how keeping Rashford on at the expense of Greenwood was the correct decision. It’s a fair comment about they’re not being an obvious attacking sub to make but it was abundantly clear what we were doing wasn’t working. A change up (like the one Ole ended up doing in the 100th minute...) to the system was worth trying much earlier because of the ineffectual nature of the current system.

It’s a strange season to assess made stranger by the performance last night because it embodied a lot of the long-standing critiques of Solskjær as a manager;
- an inability to break down low-blocks
- poor in-game management
- not performing on the big occasion

But in large part we‘ve shown improvement in breaking down low-block defences this season and no manager has won more games by virtue of their substitutions’ goals than Ole.

We’re a strange team to assess given the inconsistencies and contradictions that seem to occur game to game, and I think Ole as a manager that reflects that. Neville’s ‘odd bunch’ comment probably summed it up best as an assessment of the team.

 

[jackal&hyde]

Then surely the following is a measured response?

Ole should be replaced because he has consistently failed in pressure scenarios where we are heavy favourites. United should not have the sole aim of a top four finish to show ‘success’ and therefore it is logical now he’s had so much time, to try someone else?

I mean he took over the squad which had recently won the competition we just lost and added 300m or so…

Name me the back 4 of the team Ole took over. In attack, our most expensive players, Lukaku and Sanchez wanted out. We finished 6th btw when Mou went all in on the EL.

 

[Keefy18]

A player can have a good game whilst the unit they're in performs poorly. Our midfield didn't provide much protection to the centre backs and failed to link the attack. McTominay covering every blade of grass doesn't change that.

And at the bolded.

Provide much protection? From what exactly for god sake! We absolutely dominated them with 60% possession approx.

Did they need protecting from themselves?

Christ on a cracker!

Any other pearls of wisdom you want to part with today?

Laughing at Pogba's performance? Goes to show how much you understand about the game.

100 Touches (most for MF last night)
85% Passing accuracy
8 Of 11 long balls completed
4 Of 5 Aerial duels won
1 Clearance
5 Interceptions
1 key pass

Shows he was involved heavily in terms of attack and defence... yes, lets have a laugh.

 

[JPRouve]

This could be true but it's to early to tell. We've improved significantly over last season so we'll need to see where we are next. At this point only City have had a better PL season the us with a much better squad.

It's not early to tell he has been at United for nearly 2.5 seasons, we have had the opportunity to see what he is. You may be in the next season is our season camp but I'm not, I appreciate the good job that he has been doing but I won't pretend that I can't judge a manager after 2.5 years. No one is given that much time before being judged.

 

[Roboc7]

Ole was dreadful last night, it’s not really a time to make excuses for him. Was the biggest moment in his managerial career and it was too much for him.

He’ll still be here next season and hopefully he learns from it but he can’t be as inept as that again.

 

[Phil]

I'm just tired of posters refusing to admit Ole's mistakes in the name of being "mature, calm and not knee jerk" even though they are generally the same mistakes. It's ok to be honest about it.

 

[Zlatattack]

The football forum is a mess now and it's probably gonna be this way until the Euros. Here's a measured response to the big topics related to our EL final loss:

Our opponents
I'm starting with this point because it's possibly the most annoying one. I know that the English bias is strong both in the media and in here, but people are talking about Villarreal as if they're a complete walk-over. It's a La Liga team that has made the EL final and beaten Arsenal over two games to get there. And it's their only chance to get CL football, which means that they are gonna have an additional boost. On top of this, Emery seems to have the EL figured out. This was his 4th(!) EL win in just 7 years. Give the man and his team some goddamn respect.
Yes, we were still the favorites to win. But the gap between us is not nearly as big as some of you make it out to be. Not by a long shot.

The starting lineup
I don't think you could argue too much about the starting lineup. Given the injuries, I think it's possibly our strongest starting XI. There will always be disagreements, though. Especially in hindsight if we lose or draw. This happened on a consistent basis when Fergie was in charge as well. It's the nature of fans on the internet. They always seem to know better than the manager, regardless of who's in charge.

The late substitutions
We were the best team in that second half. Things were clicking(apart from in the final third of the pitch) at least up until the 75th minute or so. And our 4 best players were(in my opinion): McTominay, Shaw, AWB and Pogba.
Who should come off and who should come on? Keep in mind that we are chasing a goal and our only attacking "threats" on the bench are James, Mata and Amad. In case you're confused: there is no good sub to make.
McTominay was on fire during that period so taking him off was not an option. Switching Pogba with VDB or Fred is a defensive move and we needed goals. James has been criticized all year, so if you claim that he was the solution then you're simply lying to push your agenda. Amad is just a kid and he's barely played for us. You could argue that switching Rashford with Fred/VDB and putting Pogba out left was a good solution, but that is also a defensive move and only serves the purpose of fresh(but weaker) legs. Also...

Why did Ole sub Greenwood instead of Rashford?
Greenwood was better than Rashford, but only up until a certain point. After the 70th minute or so Greenwood was gradually becoming as invisible as Rashford, if not more. At this point it all comes down to experience and how much energy you have left. It was the right choice, overall.

So who's to blame?
Why does it have to be one single reason? Why do we need a scapegoat? We simply lost an even game against a decent opponent who were playing for their life(in this case: CL football) and defending their goal with all they got. We were not outplayed. We weren't even the worst team. And we lost after 22 penalties.

No trophies, though
A trophy, even a minor one, would certainly have been nice. But let's not start to pretend that it's the end of the world for us. No manager post Fergie has made the top 4 and won a trophy in the same season. If you were given a choice between a comfortable top 4 finish or the EL trophy, most of you would agree that the former is a much stronger indicator of progress. And quite frankly, the only reason any of you would choose the EL trophy over 2nd is because it also leads to CL football. If the stakes were "comfortable top 4 finish" vs "FA Cup win", almost everyone would choose the former, even though the FA Cup isn't that much worse than the EL. You can move the goal posts all you want, but the long term focus is always the PL and CL.

A final positive note
We have made the top 4 for two consecutive seasons for the first time post Fergie. Quite comfortably as well! We also have a very young team, which can only be good for the long term. The summer transfer window will largely decide the outcome of next season, but let's not complain about lack of transfers already in May, shall we? Take a deep breath and enjoy the upcoming summer!

I disagree with a few of these points.

The opponents - Beating Arsenal isn't a measure of anything, it's Arsenal. The real challenge they presented was parking the bus, something our team have yet to figure out what to do against. You have a point about Emrey having experience in finals though, that is something our manager lacks.

The subs - I think he could have made them earlier. These guys were parking the bus, we needed players who could dribble and make neat tidy passes between the lines to create something. Mata, VDB and Diallo could have done that for us. We needed to try something and we just didn't. Also Henderson for the penalties. I know it would have been harsh on Dave but i don't think he's saved on since 2016?

Blame - I think the application of the players in the first half, and then tactics in the second half. If everyone had tried as much as McTomminay did, we might have made something for ourselves.

Trophies - You're right it's not the end of the world, the fact we are taking it seriously speaks for how well the squad have done and expectations have increased accordingly, however if we're ever going to be winners - we have to think like them.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Why didn't Moyes, Mourinho or LvG receive this defence?

 

[Idxomer]

Why didn't Moyes, Mourinho or LvG receive this defence?

Because they're not Norwegians and haven't played for the club.

 

[Dan_F]

The sad thing about last night is the amount of people focusing on things like squad depth, or the one Greenwood sub. We absolutely have the squad to win a game against Villarreal. Non negotiable.

Of course any team can lose a one off game, but the fact that it is a repeated pattern of losing in semi’s and now finals, and that it followed repeatedly average performances where we go behind and struggle our way back into games. This is far more of a worry for me than any in game decisions.

I don’t think I’m Ole out, but I have a resigned feeling that it’s near on impossible to challenge for major trophies with this set of coaches. I don’t really know where we go from here, as if we fail again next year, I can see some big issues with players wanting to move on.

 

[Bastian]

It is crazy the amount of "measured responses threads" the "rational non reactive threads" has been written since yesterday with only one purpose, to defend a manager not of the standard required to be at en elite club. We lost yesterday as we did lose 5 semifinals, we have a mediocre manager, get over it.

I wonder how people would have reacted had Mourinho/LVG/Moyes been in charge. Or anyone else who doesn't have history with the club. He, like every other manager, needs to shoulder the responsibility for this. It's on him. 100%.

He needs to win trophies here, he can say it's all about the players and the club, but he needs to win trophies here to prove he deserves to be here. And he's failed so far. Next season I really hope the United pundits stop with the excuses.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

The team lost all momentum in the run in, you just knew they'd never get it back

 

[Keefy18]

Then surely the following is a measured response?

Ole should be replaced because he has consistently failed in pressure scenarios where we are heavy favourites. United should not have the sole aim of a top four finish to show ‘success’ and therefore it is logical now he’s had so much time, to try someone else?

I mean he took over the squad which had recently won the competition we just lost and added 300m or so…

He took over a squad that had just been utterly smashed to pieces by our rivals Liverpool who set a Premier league record of 36 shots in a game... you've clearly a short term memory.

The squad was full of toxic, half arsed primadonna sorts, over paid and under performing. Many wanted to leave. The average age of the squad was approx 28 years old, it was a short term situation with many of the players.

Ole has cut a lot of deadwood, improved morale a lot, has us generally performing very well, has gone unbeaten away over a full season, has vastly improved a lot of players like Maguire (woeful start to the season), Shaw, McTominay AWB, Cavani and promoted a lot of youth players whilst tying them into long term deals. On a side note, he's also over seen some very intelligent loan deals that will stand to us, like Dalot, Garner and Lingard.

There is a lot of very positive work being done in the background and given time it could likely prove beneficial in the long term.

Sacking him now is beyond idiotic.

He needs a big summer of backing from the board to take the next step up.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

I wonder how people would have reacted had Mourinho/LVG/Moyes been in charge. Or anyone else who doesn't have history with the club. He, like every other manager, needs to shoulder the responsibility for this. It's on him. 100%.

He needs to win trophies here, he can say it's all about the players and the club, but he needs to win trophies here to prove he deserves to be here. And he's failed so far. Next season I really hope the United pundits stop with the excuses.

LvG got sacked after winning a final. If it was up to some, Ole would get a medal for even getting a score draw against the rubbish we played last night.

 

[JPRouve]

The sad thing about last night is the amount of people focusing on things like squad depth, or the one Greenwood sub. We absolutely have the squad to win a game against Villarreal. Non negotiable.

Of course any team can lose a one off game, but the fact that it is a repeated pattern of losing in semi’s and now finals, and that it followed repeatedly average performances where we go behind and struggle our way back into games. This is far more of a worry for me than any in game decisions.

I don’t think I’m Ole out, but I have a resigned feeling that it’s near on impossible to challenge for major trophies with this set of coaches. I don’t really know where we go from here, as if we fail again next year, I can see some big issues with players wanting to move on.

That's how I feel. I also don't particularly want Ole to leave and I'm willing to see if he can change, adapt but when it comes to winning trophies, I'm skeptical.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Thought we were the better team, but tactically one manager got it right, the other didn't.

IMO we lost all momentum through no subs, we looked gassed from about 80+ while they made 5 subs. I thought we'd be really going for it to try and avoid penalties but we seemed happy to actually play for them, which I found odd.

To then not sub in Henderson who's a penalty specialist for somebody who's not saved one in 6 years, is another oversight.

Ole is clearly a great man manager, but he needs help tactically. Who is his Carlos Quieroz? obviously Mckenna and Carrick just don't have any positive input to change games.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Name me the back 4 of the team Ole took over. In attack, our most expensive players, Lukaku and Sanchez wanted out. We finished 6th btw when Mou went all in on the EL.

What’s your point? It was a vastly inferior back four. I really don’t get posters like you - do you think Villarreal are some sleeping giant or something?

 

[pcaming]

For a top level footballing side, we really aren't that good at football.

At the end of the day, we have a board with extremely low standards, and we refuse to bring in a coaches that focus on proper attacking build up. How long will Manchester United be a top heavy club? Why do we hang on to Managers and players for so long when everyone knows they're not good enough?

Ole to his credit does have some ambition, but he is not able to train all aspects of the game. He needs to realize he needs more specialized assistants if he wants to succeed at high level coaching. The players you can say some aren't good enough, and it's true, but a lot of the time all of them look lost.

 

[talking robot]

I wouldn't call Rashford weak, he's played with an injury since September. I agree with everything else though.

Possibly it's down to injury, and I suppose I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I still want to see his position come under serious threat (e.g. from a Jadon Sancho), and him have to earn his spot weak in and weak out. Maybe we'd see an improvement similar to Shaw this year.

 

[talking robot]

For a top level footballing side, we really aren't that good at football.

At the end of the day, we have a board with extremely low standards, and we refuse to bring in a coaches that focus on proper attacking build up. How long will Manchester United be a top heavy club? Why do we hang on to Managers and players for so long when everyone knows they're not good enough?

Ole to his credit does have some ambition, but he is not able to train all aspects of the game. He needs to realize he needs more specialized assistants if he wants to succeed at high level coaching. The players you can say some aren't good enough, and it's true, but a lot of the time all of them look lost.

I think Solskjaer looks the part for the United manager role, but definitely also agree with the need for 1 or 2 higher quality technical assistants. I wish he could find a modern day Carlos Queiroz type.

 

[kerryman]

This could be true but it's to early to tell. We've improved significantly over last season so we'll need to see where we are next. At this point only City have had a better PL season the us with a much better squad.

We finished with 8 points more this season, scored 7 more goals, conceded 8 more...not sure we've improved that much. We finished 12 points behind City this season as opposed to 15 behind last season.

 

[hobbers]

If you can't accept that Ole's approach to subs was amateurish and embarrassing then don't have the cheek to call the thread a measured response.

 

[Redlyn]

"Purpose of fresh(but weaker) legs."

Completely disagree with the OP on subs. Anyone saying the bench would have provided weaker legs did not watch rashford for 120 mins.

And if you say who it could have been James or Fred. My preference is for Fred, who would have allowed us to free up a more useful attacking player in Pogba and even McT could be more adventurous. If thats a defensive move whatever, it would still have been a more productive move than doing nothing and keeping a player that cant run. Even James would have been better.

We completely lost the initiative in last part of normal time as well as extra time as we persisted with an injured player.

 

[AjaxCunian]

Who decides that your response is the measured one?

His name is OleBoiii..

 

[bsCallout]

Possibly it's down to injury, and I suppose I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I still want to see his position come under serious threat (e.g. from a Jadon Sancho), and him have to earn his spot weak in and weak out. Maybe we'd see an improvement similar to Shaw this year.

Absolutely. Grealish or Sancho seem like no brainers. Not sure what Sancho's mentality is like though, Grealish is definitely the attitude you'd want.

 

[AjaxCunian]

I'm just tired of posters refusing to admit Ole's mistakes in the name of being "mature, calm and not knee jerk" even though they are generally the same mistakes. It's ok to be honest about it.

They then dare to name this a one-off match. They are far more agenda-driven than the "unhappy fans".

 

[ForeverRed1]

It’s the first time I have honestly felt that ole isn’t the man to win us trophies. Rebuild maybe, build a better culture, steady the ship but not win major honours. He’s too nice and too sentimental. Top managers are ruthless, they do whatever it takes to win. I’m not sure ole has that in him.

and I love ole.

 

[sparx99]

I tend to agree with the OP. Last night wasn't a disaster in the way it will inevitably be spun. We are all going to have a huge emotional letdown which leads to overreaction.

That being said what really came into sharp focus was just how little choice we had on the bench. I think most would agree that we had our best XI (who were fit) on the pitch. I don't think Rashford had a good game but I can also totally understand the hesitation to bring on Dan James, Mata or Van De Beek. Regardless of the strength of the opposition sometimes players will have poor games and you need options on the bench. Had City played that game and Sterling was struggling City would have Foden, Mahrez, or Bernardo Silva as an option.

Our first-choice team is largely pretty good. What we need is more of that quality in order to take the final step forward. Imagine Greenwood or Rashford being replaced by Sancho last night for example. We've all seen how Shaw has elevated his performances because of competition this season.

 

[Siorac]

Why didn't Moyes, Mourinho or LvG receive this defence?

They had their share of fans who defended their every move. Mourinho in particular had quite the cult.

 

[OleBoiii]

Why didn't Moyes, Mourinho or LvG receive this defence?

Moyes:
Took over the Champions of England and added two players worth 77 million euros(which was a lot in 2013). Crashed out of the top 4 nonetheless.

Van Gaal:
His second season was worse than his first and he failed to get CL football on top of this.

Mourinho:
Had one of the worst collapses I've seen. He was also an extremely toxic presence.

___________________

If any of the above happens to Ole he will be sacked. And rightfully so.

 

[Vidyoyo]

It’s the first time I have honestly felt that ole isn’t the man to win us trophies. Rebuild maybe, build a better culture, steady the ship but not win major honours. He’s too nice and too sentimental. Top managers are ruthless, they do whatever it takes to win. I’m not sure ole has that in him.

and I love ole.

Some truth to this as the 'business end' of the season under SAF was often when we played some terrible football but ground out the necessary wins. Ole seems to be good at everything but that part.

 

[hobbers]

Why didn't Moyes, Mourinho or LvG receive this defence?

Moyes had a fair amount of deluded fans in his corner right until the very end.

"But SAF told us to stand by our new manager he couldnt have been wrong"....

 

[Siorac]

but I can also totally understand the hesitation to bring on Dan James, Mata or Van De Beek

What about Gómez Bardonado, Rabaseda Antolin, or Pérez Martínez?

 

[bosnian_red]

To be honest, for some reason, i was not bothered by the loss of the EL Final as much as I was bothered by say the loss to Liverpool a

Weird. This was the most gutted I've felt after a result (for United) since either the loss to Real Madrid in 12/13 or losing the title against City in 11/12. People put down the EL all the time here, but feck me was it a needed trophy for us and absolutely gutting to lose it on pens.

 

[Idxomer]

What about Gómez Bardonado, Rabaseda Antolin, or Pérez Martínez?

Who?

 

[hobbers]

Our subs are generally all players who would start for Villarreal.

Villarreal's subs bench were players who would be roughly starters at relegation-battling clubs in La Liga.

Yet their manager made 5 changes in normal time.

 

[VP89]

I can also totally understand the hesitation to bring on Dan James, Mata or Van De Beek.

Ole bought 2 of these players for squad depth if nothing else. If you can't rely on them to come off for an impact, you have to question the decision making.

 

[Siorac]

Who?

They were all subbed on for Villarreal. I'm going to go out on a limb and say our bench had better players.

 

[jackal&hyde]

It's not early to tell he has been at United for nearly 2.5 seasons, we have had the opportunity to see what he is. You may be in the next season is our season camp but I'm not, I appreciate the good job that he has been doing but I won't pretend that I can't judge a manager after 2.5 years. No one is given that much time before being judged.

No. I am in the support the manager until you see regression or even stagnation. This season we've improved over last so we are on the ascent. That is the judgement I make. If after finishing 3ed we would have struggled to get top 4, then out. A cup comp that was decided after 21 penalties does not change that. The league is my and I think the clubs target and things are looking on the up.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Moyes:
Took over the Champions of England and added two players worth 77 million euros(which was a lot in 2013). Crashed out of the top 4 nonetheless.

Van Gaal:
His second season was worse than his first and he failed to get CL football on top of this.

Mourinho:
Had one of the worst collapses I've seen. He was also an extremely toxic presence.

___________________

If any of the above happens to Ole he will be sacked. And rightfully so.

Wait, whats Ole done? He hasnt achieved anything thats expected of a manager, has he?