Given how the latter 2 ended up playing I’m sure critics would have had a different say if that happened.
The "England have had it easy" narrative
- Thread starter Alex99
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Difference is Liverpool’s opponents were decided using a draw. Like the SF draw was done before the SF. England’s matches were decided well in advance and England actually had a harder group than all big teams except Spain.
All this is ignoring the fact that in the previous World Cups and Euros England failed to beat average sides like Iceland Costa Rica New Zealand etc.
How is there even a debate about this? England haven’t faced one decent team yet.
This.
And this.
Agreed. In previous tournaments we've struggled to beat average teams. Now that we're beating them, there's still big question marks for many people, because we've not played one of the favourites.
Whatever happens, and even if we lose 3-0 to Croatia, this England team has progressed. That's all we wanted at the start of the tournaments - to give a good account of ourselves and show improvement. A Quarter Final win and Semi Final match are just huge bonuses.
Does it matter what type of run it is, as long as you progress?
Germany had an easier group than England according to FIFA rankings, yet they failed to progress.
Germany had an easier group than England according to FIFA rankings, yet they failed to progress.
This right here. I remember all the screaming when Japan played 'negatively' and got through to R16 via fairplay rules. Then right after that, everyone thought England would be 'smart' to just throw their game against Belgium to get easy games (which they now have). They weren't likely to beat Belgium anyway, B team or not, so not sure about what all the fuss was about.
100%. At the time most england fans understandably wanted the easy route, and now that they have it they want everybody to say it isn't straightforward.
Was just an example though. I would rank tunisia and panama as the worst teams from pot 3 and 4. Again its not a criticism, England didn't do the draw, nor did they do their simple qualifying draw, but the way it has gone made a semi final appearance a near certainty.
Easier, not easy.
It was a smart move from Southgate to take it easy against Belgium. Going against Colombia and Sweden as opposed to facing Brazil and France. Worked out well for England. They have a good chance against an exhausted Croatia, too. But I don't see them beating the winner of France/Belgium encounter in the final.
I can’t remember the pots so will take your word for it though one of them did contain Saudi Arabia and Tunisia are a better side than a Salah-less Egypt.
Nah it’s definitely not a certainty for England to get to the semis, certainly not before the start of the tournament when you had Germany and Argentina likely to be in the mix. You give England too much credit in that respect. They’re not much better than Colombia or Sweden.
I’m all for saying England had an easier draw than most teams getting to the semis, but they deserve credit for getting there.
Relatively easy. But yes without the pedantry call it what you like, i think many non england fans do see the way some england fans are acting as pretty typical. Not everybody is bitter or anti england for making an observstion on a very strsightforward path, that would absolutely be made were it spain, Argentina etc making the same route. Way too defensive and often hypocritical attitudes. Will england fans be happy if their route is ignored or if all neutrals pretend it wasnt a fantastic fall of the draw
Lots of Belgians did as well to be fair. It was a weird match to watch.
It was also a gamble to make to lose a game if you are one of those people who believe in momentum. Colombia were a much tougher side than Japan and England hadn’t won a knockout game for 12 odd years.
Of course they do. And yes pre tournament nobody would predict it, i should clarify that i meant if somebody had shown me englands run pre tournament and told me theyd need to lose to belgium and rodriguez would be out for colombia i would have bet my life on them making the semis
Fair enough, you had a lot of esteem for Southgates side.
More a lack of any expectation from tunisia panama and sweden. Anyway if England go on to win it then good luck to them what an amazing time to be an england fan. Id also be delighted for the united contingent. There are other reasons people might not want to see England win it (not necessarily my personal feelings) and often it's nothing at all to do with bitterness or hatred.
England fans can't expect football supporters to behave differently because it now suits them
I completely agree here. I have no issue if non-English fans supporting the opposition. England fans who get their knickers in a twist about really ought to grow up. We’re a relatively big country with an awkward history, let’s just enjoy our own team who are also likeable for once.
Also as an United fan, quite used to neutral fans wanting my side to lose. Never bothered me there either.
Coming into the tournament, nobody thought England had a great squad. Not even us English. A group of youngsters, some talent here and there, but never going to make a huge mark on the competition. The objective was to get out of the group and show some progression, to leave us in a better position for the Euros and the World Cup. Doing well in Russia was a bonus.
Colombia are a decent side - they finished ahead of Chile in the qualifiers and played some good football in the group stages. Sweden are a decent side - they knocked out Germany, Italy and Holland. Beating both of them with our inexperience team in knockout football games is not "relatively easy". It's convenient to say that after they've won.
Also, I've seen you refer to Sweden as a Championship team.
Championship teams don't beat Italy and Holland in the qualifiers, top a group which included Germany, and also beat Mexico, South Korea and Denmark.
You may not think they're brilliant, but calling them a Championship Team is a little disrespectful. Are all of the other teams above League 1 level?
I bet the route to their grandmother was easy too.
Sweden didn't knock out Germany, where is this coming from ? Germany had the last game on their hands.
I think it’s impossible to ignore the route England have had to the semi final as it is the main reason they have been able to get this far. Pre-tournament the expectation was reaching the QF and then getting knocked out on the assumption that England would be playing a top team. I think Sweden are very underrated but let’s be honest you would expect to play a better team at the QF stage. Personally I had expected Colombia to win but once I saw James was ruled out I made England slight favorites.
For those bringing up the routes Germany and Italy had to their finals I don’t think they are comparable. Firstly that German team was expected to go far in the competition regardless of the draw. Of course it made it easier for them to progress but plenty of people were backing them. Therefore it was not purely down to their draw that they reached the final. As for Italy they had a much harder semi-final than England face.
Speaking of Croatia I would make them slight favourites although back to back extra time periods could be an issue. I expect it to be tight but I do think Croatia’s midfield up against England’s (aka Jordan Henderson) could be fatal to England’s chances.
So basically my point is it is impossible to ignore England’s path to the semi final given the quality of teams they have had to face when it is the main reason they have gone this far. I know it is not the teams fault but it’s delusional to suggest it isn’t the main reason for their progression to this point.
For those bringing up the routes Germany and Italy had to their finals I don’t think they are comparable. Firstly that German team was expected to go far in the competition regardless of the draw. Of course it made it easier for them to progress but plenty of people were backing them. Therefore it was not purely down to their draw that they reached the final. As for Italy they had a much harder semi-final than England face.
Speaking of Croatia I would make them slight favourites although back to back extra time periods could be an issue. I expect it to be tight but I do think Croatia’s midfield up against England’s (aka Jordan Henderson) could be fatal to England’s chances.
So basically my point is it is impossible to ignore England’s path to the semi final given the quality of teams they have had to face when it is the main reason they have gone this far. I know it is not the teams fault but it’s delusional to suggest it isn’t the main reason for their progression to this point.
I can't even begin to care or argue about how easy we've had it, this has been the most fun I've had watching football in a very very long time. That's what matters.
I do think it's funny how the narrative has changed on each team we've faced after we've beaten them though, but that's football fans in general isn't it.
I do think it's funny how the narrative has changed on each team we've faced after we've beaten them though, but that's football fans in general isn't it.
How can you say it's the main reason? No one has a bloody clue how this team would have done against much better opposition, we could be still in the semifinal after beating Brazil, Spain or Germany, it's pure speculation. We've simply done what every other team in the semis has done, beat what's in front of us.
We'll find out on Wednesday vs Croatia, but something tells me, if we beat them, they'll suddenly be a pub team too.
I personally disagree and although sweden over achieved would expect England to beat this sweden side 9 times out of ten. They were organised and well drilled and its a credit to them that they made the quarters but the enormous gap between the teams was shown with the ease at which england beat them in second gear.
Regards the championship team comment i would stand by it and not see it as disrespectful. Thats the level most of their team would make it to should they play in England, lets face it seb larsson has been struggling at Sunderland and hull in recent years before moving back to a weak domestic league. Contrary to the narrative and admittedly low international experience englands team is made up of players from the premier leagues top clubs, extremely expensive players and the likes of Kane who top clubs outside of England have been linked with. In my example, it was very much a prenier league side versus a championship side and it showed.
Sweden were in a group with Germany. From the games played in that group, the results and the final standings, Sweden progressed and Germany didn't. Sweden took a qualification spot that Germany were unable to take themselves. Sweden were better during the group stage than Germany. Germany were eliminated from that group because two teams were better than them over the games played - one of these teams were Sweden.
Fair enough. We'll have to agree to disagree. I think Sweden are better than a Championship side. Nice debating with you. I need to drive home now
Yes, therefore Engalnd vs Sweden is a much tougher match than England vs Germany, and England's path to semi finals is extremely difficult.
....
I've not seen anyone say it was difficult? Why didn't Germany reach the knockouts?
To be fair, on the form Germany were in, it would have been our easiest knockout game by far!
Good post.
It's true Sweden topped a group with Germany but I don't think you can say they personally knocked them out. The rest of the post is quality; though England on paper have had a lower key route to the final than they could ever have hoped for that's not to say it hasn't been a challenge. These so-called easier teams didn't get parachuted in on some kind of whim, they were there on merit having overcome big teams or the conquerors of big teams.
We could have had Colombia, Germany, Spain, France/Belgium, which looks absolutely brutal. We didn't because Germany and Spain weren't up to it on this occasion. That isn't our fault.
The name or history of an opponent is not what makes them difficult to beat. It's their performance level on the pitch. Germany did not perform well, hence they were knocked out. If Germany played well enough to reach the last 8, then yes it may be a difficult match, but they're didn't perform well, did they?
Still, let's make up a complete different scenario in which Germany played well enough to face England in a Quarter Final match. Yes, that would be a difficult match in this made up scenario.
Playing Germany in the last 8, at the level they showed in the group stages (which wouldn't happen because they wouldn't make it through), would not be as difficult as games against the teams that showed a higher level during the groups matches. Another make up scenario of course.
We can only play who get through it’s not our fault. If Spain and Germany didn’t bomb out they’d be on our side of the table.
If England win this World Cup, I couldn't give two shits who they played to do it.
S.Korea was the one who properly knocked out Germany and not Sweden. In the end it wasn't even between Sweden and Germany but more Mexico and Germany
It's brilliant we ended up on the easier side of the draw.
After years of Argentina or Germany in the first knockout round or getting a group with Italy and Uruguay it's about time we had a bit of luck with the route.
After years of Argentina or Germany in the first knockout round or getting a group with Italy and Uruguay it's about time we had a bit of luck with the route.
It's a straightforward run to the final - nobody reasonable would deny that. Colombia, Sweden, Croatia, World Cup Final - it can't get much simpler. Colombia were the only real threat, and they just aren't very good. Sweden and Croatia combined barely make up the population of London.
It's sad people are already trying to claim that this hasn't been an easy run. It has been, but you've still got to win it. There will never be a better chance.
It's sad people are already trying to claim that this hasn't been an easy run. It has been, but you've still got to win it. There will never be a better chance.