The "England have had it easy" narrative

[Redo91]

How can you say it's the main reason? No one has a bloody clue how this team would have done against much better opposition, we could be still in the semifinal after beating Brazil, Spain or Germany, it's pure speculation. We've simply done what every other team in the semis has done, beat what's in front of us.

We'll find out on Wednesday vs Croatia, but something tells me, if we beat them, they'll suddenly be a pub team too.

Ah come on of course it bloody is. I actually don’t think this England team have played much better than I expected them to. They are well coached and very organised but from open play they have not been much of a threat. Fair play to Southgate for identifying set pieces and it now being a strength of England’s.

So ya while nobody knows how they would have done had they faced Brazil in a quarter final what we can say for a fact is their chances of reaching the semi final would have been a hell of a lot slimmer. Therefore of course the draw is the main point.

I never suggested the teams England have beaten have been pub teams. Simply that you would expect them to be playing teams of a better quality at this stage of the competition.

 

[Judas]

It's just amazing how much worse Sweden and Colombia became once we beat them. It's quite the rewriting of history.

 

[the_irish123]

It's just amazing how much worse Sweden and Colombia became once we beat them. It's quite the rewriting of history.

In a vacuum, Colombia at Ro16 is a decently tough game. But if you combine that with Sweden and Croatia to get to the finals, of course it's a very accessible path. Germany had to play France and Brazil in 2014. Spain had to beat Germany etc.

 

[Ish]

Thanks
Almost healed, there is a headache lingering still but I think I was just in huge deficit of vitamins/minerals which made me super vulnerable.

Glad you’re alright and on the mend. I’ve been recovering from a vicious bout of pharyngitis myself. Should have heeded the age old saying of spit, don’t swallow, it seems

 

[Pat_Mustard]

It's a BS excuse used to discredit England's achievement by the bitter "anyone but England" club.

Germany got to the final in 02 beating Paraguay, USA & South Korea & nobody made a big deal out of it. Italy's route to the semi's in 06 was Australia & Ukraine, again nobody said anything. You can only beat who is in front of you.

They really did. That Germany team was seen as being fairly shite both at the time:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/jun/26/germany.worldcupfootball2002

and retrospectively:

https://thesefootballtimes.co/2016/04/10/germany-2002-the-worst-world-cup-finalists-ever/

Agreed that an easy-ish on paper route to the semis is hardly unprecedented however, and England deserve a lot of credit for not slipping up like so many of the favourites in this tournament already have. It's still not unreasonable to state that they have yet to beat a top opponent though.

 

[kouroux]

Glad you’re alright and on the mend. I’ve been recovering from a vicious bout of pharyngitis myself. Should have heeded the age old saying of spit, don’t swallow, it seems

At the worst, it was scary. Felt like a zombie, was afraid to pass out while driving

 

[RedRover]

No idea why anyone would care about this. Without stating the obvious, in tournament football you can only beat what's put in front of you. If we win it, nobody in England will care whether we beat the best sides on route. If we can get past Croatia then since its either France or Belgium in the final, either of which could be considered the best side in the tournament in terms of form.

 

[mancan92]

Of course it’s been easy in comparison to what it should be. We have also benefited from some very lucky situations e.g Columbia losing their best player.

Then we play Croatia in the semifinals which is the best anyone could have ever hoped for.

But i don’t care really it’s coming home

 

[Kostov]

While I also think England had an easy route to the semi final, I don't see why would England fans bother with that. You can only beat what is in front of you, and they've done that. Fair play and no credit should be taken away from their achievement.

If football is a sport where the better team always wins, England would not win the World Cup, but we all know football is never like that.

 

[Random Task]

While I also think England had an easy route to the semi final, I don't see why would England fans bother with that. You can only beat what is in front of you, and they've done that. Fair play and no credit should be taken away from their achievement.

If football is a sport where the better team always wins, England would not win the World Cup, but we all know football is never like that.

And you were doing so well up to the bolded part.

It's coming home.

 

[Ish]

At the worst, it was scary. Felt like a zombie, was afraid to pass out while driving

Yeah best take care and look after yourself man. No taking chances.

 

[Trizy]

How can you possibly defend England's route? . I've seen it all.

It's almost as bad as that Spurs fan trying to defend Kane's golden boot. It will go down as the luckiest award even, if he wins it.

The two above points don't make England or Kane bad. It's just pure favoritism to not see what is clear to the rest of the world.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

And you were doing so well up to the bolded part.

It's coming home.

Feck me the sensitivity of England fans on here is amazing. I doubt there was a single person on redcafe who had England down as the best team in the tournament. Why on earth does pointing that out seem to trigger you?

The best team doesn’t always win cup competitions but all that matters is who gets their name on the trophy. When a team that isn’t the favourite wins (and England were never favourites - fairly sure they still aren’t?) that doesn’t cheapen the achievement. The opposite, if anything. So why does it bother you when people point this out?

 

[Alex99]

Was just an example though. I would rank tunisia and panama as the worst teams from pot 3 and 4. Again its not a criticism, England didn't do the draw, nor did they do their simple qualifying draw, but the way it has gone made a semi final appearance a near certainty.

You ranking Tunisia and Panama as the worst teams from their pots doesn't necessarily make it true though.

Tunisia were the highest ranked African side going into the tournament, ahead of Senegal and Egypt that were also in Pot 3. I'm also not sure what Egypt, who lost every game, including their game against Saudi Arabia, showed to prove that they were better than Tunisia, or what winless Iceland and Costa Rica proved either. Heading into the World Cup Tunisia beat both Iran and Costa Rica, also in Pot 3, drew with Portugal, and only lost 1-0 to Spain.

Panama also qualified by finishing two places ahead of the US, and while I'll give you that they weren't great, it's not as if the pairing of Tunisia and Panama is any weaker than Morocco and Iran, or Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

This is the exact issue I have. People are rating teams based on a gut-feeling of how good they are "on paper" and not based on their performances and results in the build up to, and in the tournament.

Youre ignoring that they drew the easiest of 3rd and 4th seeds and made a tricky job of beating one of them. Not only could they have had a way harder group but it also means some tougher teams may have made it through other groups due to having an easier draw. Because a team went out does not make them a bad team.

England could have had a group of belgium serbia and egypt, just as an example.

Again, you can't just decide that England had the easiest of the Pot 3 and Pot 4 teams and present it as fact, when one was ranked higher than two of the teams from the same confederation, and beat two others in the build to the tournament. Panama there's an argument for, but as I said, that pairing is no worse than some of the Pot 3 and 4 pairings we saw.

England couldn't have had a group containing Belgium, Serbia and Egypt because only two UEFA nations can be drawn in the same group. Egypt didn't prove themselves better than Tunisia at all, so that's a weird substitution to make, and the other alternatives from that Pot were Costa Rica, Senegal, and Iran, two of which Tunisia beat in the build up and the other they were ranked ahead of. There were obviously better teams than Panama in Pot 4, but England would be heavy favourites against any of them.

England were 2nd seed and the 11th highest club on the ranking in the competition and haven't faced any club higher than them in the 1st round or the quarter or semis so given that, yea the draw has been very kind to them. Group was also the easiest to qualify from in the competition. It's a bit like Liverpool in the CL the way things have been laid out for them.

I'm not sure what point you're making here.

England were a Pot 2 team, ranked 12th by Fifa. They've played 13th ranked Colombia and 25th ranked Sweden so far, and are guaranteed to face either 5th ranked Belgium or 7th ranked France should they reach the final.

Croatia were also a Pot 2 team, ranked 18th by Fifa. They've played 19th ranked Denmark and 65th ranked Russia so far, and are guaranteed to face either 5th ranked Belgium or 7th ranked France should they reach the final.

Belgium were a Pot 1 team, ranked 5th by Fifa. They've played 44th ranked Japan and 2nd ranked Brazil, and are guaranteed to face 12th ranked England or 18th ranked Croatia should they reach the final.

France were a Pot 1 team, ranked 7th by Fifa. They've played 4th ranked Argentina and 17th ranked Uruguay, and are guaranteed to face 12th ranked England or 18th ranked Croatia.

With every possible final draw from these semi-final teams, Croatia and France would play two teams ranked ahead of them should they get there (England/France and Argentina/Belgium respectively), and England and Belgium one team (Belgium and Brazil respectively).

There were 10 teams in the competition ranked higher than England. The one they could have met in the first knockout round ended up bottom of their group, and one of the two they could have met in the quarter final also finished bottom of their group, with the other being in the other half of the draw. Two of the three that England could have met in the semi-final were eliminated in the first knockout round, one by the lowest ranked team in the entire competition, the other by England's actual quarter-final opponents, and the other ended up in the other half of the draw after finishing second in their group, and were also eliminated in the first knockout round.

England could have theoretically played Poland in the first knockout round and Switzerland in the quarter final, two teams ranked ahead of them. I'm not convinced that would have prevented your criticism of England's apparent "easy" route.

 

[pacifictheme]

The best thing about the supposed easy run is the other home nations getting all up in arms about it. If we'd beaten good opposition they'd have to be grudgingly impressed.

This way they get much more wound up which makes it much funnier.

For me, even if we go out to croatia this world cup has been a hugr success for england for me.

We played really well in a game (it was only panama but we've struggled v shit teams in the past), we got to the quarter finals (and now semi finals!), which was what i hoped we'd do and so far we've not been embarrassed or well beaten.

 

[breakout67]

It's just amazing how much worse Sweden and Colombia became once we beat them. It's quite the rewriting of history.

Colombia were in fact utter shite when we beat them because they didn't have their best player. They tried to turn it into a UFC game and were lucky to not have atleast 1 player sent off if not more.

 

[Kostov]

And you were doing so well up to the bolded part.

It's coming home.

OK mate, whatever you say!

The funny thing at this World Cup is, growing up besides my own country I was always rooting for England thanks to the many United players in the national team, in this selection of players I can hardly maintain that bond. Going from Rio, Beckham and Rooney to Lingard and Young is a bit too much for me.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

OK mate, whatever you say!

The funny thing at this World Cup is, growing up besides my own country I was always rooting for England thanks to the many United players in the national team, in this selection of players I can hardly maintain that bond. Going from Rio, Beckham and Rooney to Lingard and Young is a bit too much for me.

Really? I find Young and Lingard both immensely likeable. Ditto Rashford and Jones. They’re the reason I’ll probably end up still rooting for England to win the whole thing, even though that’s becoming a bit of a struggle.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The best thing about the supposed easy run is the other home nations getting all up in arms about it. If we'd beaten good opposition they'd have to be grudgingly impressed.

This way they get much more wound up which makes it much funnier.

For me, even if we go out to croatia this world cup has been a hugr success for england for me.

We played really well in a game (it was only panama but we've struggled v shit teams in the past), we got to the quarter finals (and now semi finals!), which was what i hoped we'd do and so far we've not been embarrassed or well beaten.

What does this even mean?!?

 

[2mufc0]

It has been an easier route than it could have been. Don't see why England fans are getting upset about it, what really matters is how far they can go.

 

[Random Task]

Feck me the sensitivity of England fans on here is amazing. I doubt there was a single person on redcafe who had England down as the best team in the tournament. Why on earth does pointing that out seem to trigger you?

The best team doesn’t always win cup competitions but all that matters is who gets their name on the trophy. When a team that isn’t the favourite wins (and England were never favourites - fairly sure they still aren’t?) that doesn’t cheapen the achievement. The opposite, if anything. So why does it bother you when people point this out?

Clearly, I was jesting. Simply following the theme of the thread.

What I do find interesting is how my response triggered a highly sensitive response of your own - one of many in this thread alone, might I add.

 

[Random Task]

Colombia were in fact utter shite when we beat them because they didn't have their best player. They tried to turn it into a UFC game and were lucky to not have atleast 1 player sent off if not more.

They could have had 2 sendings off in the first-half alone

 

[Dundrummer]

England haven't beaten an elite nation in a world cup knockout match since Germany in 1966. If they can get past their group then their world cup invariably ends the moment they come up against one of the big boys*. When they have gone out in a group stage game it's always been against a big nation too (Spain in 82, Uruguay last time).

The weird thing this time is that they won't have to play a big side until (I suspect) they play France in the final, which just goes to show how much difference a good draw can make.

*
1970 Germany in the quarter final
1986 Argentina in quarter final
1990 Germany in the semi final
1998 Argentina in the last 16
2002 Brazil in the quarter final
2006 Portugal in the quarter final
2010 Germany in the last 16

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Clearly, I was jesting. Simply following the theme of the thread.

What I do find interesting is how my response triggered a highly sensitive response of your own - one of many in this thread alone might I add.

For sure. I’ve been genuinely taken aback by the sensitivity of you lot. As though you’re morally obliged to support England if you support an English team, or holding an opinion that England have had a decent run of fixtures makes you bitter. It’s such bizarre behaviour I’m honestly struggling to work out which posts are serious and which posts are a parody. So yours wasn’t serious? Ok.

 

[Zlatan 7]

@Alex99 without writing an essay to say it, it’s simple really, England havnt played any of Germany, Spain, Argentina, Brazil etc to get to a WC semi final, forget their performances, even the stature of the countries could have got in England’s head, who knows

 

[littlepeasoup]

Club football will always be my one true love, but the fact that this England setup are about a millions times less dreary than some of the squads that preceded them is something to celebrate.

Regardless of the route, and regardless of the outcome on Wednesday, this group of players has gotten me excited about watching England in a way I've not felt since I was a kid; I swear I've got my old grey 96 kit knocking about somewhere, not that it'll fit mind, I was like 9.

 

[Kostov]

Really? I find Young and Lingard both immensely likeable. Ditto Rashford and Jones. They’re the reason I’ll probably end up still rooting for England to win the whole thing, even though that’s becoming a bit of a struggle.

They are likeable, but it was more about United players being the face of the national team. Captains and best players, Beckham is my all time favorite player and the reason I grew up a United fan, then Rooney took that title. Now Rashford is barely getting any minutes and I though he would feature regularly.

I wouldn't mind them going into the final in all honesty, but if they face France/Belgium, I'd rather Pogba or Lukaku get the medal.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

They are likeable, but it was more about United players being the face of the national team. Captains and best players, Beckham is my all time favorite player and the reason I grew up a United fan, then Rooney took that title. Now Rashford is barely getting any minutes and I though he would feature regularly.

I wouldn't mind them going into the final in all honesty, but if they face France/Belgium, I'd rather Pogba or Lukaku get the medal.

I’d prefer Lingard and Rashford to get the medal because they came up through the academy. I’ve a particular soft spot for Jesse, who’s had so many doubters over the years.

Pogba or Lukaku/Fellaini winning a medal would soften the blow if they didn’t. Basically anyone bar Croatia winning is all good.

 

[simmee]

The best thing about the supposed easy run is the other home nations getting all up in arms about it. If we'd beaten good opposition they'd have to be grudgingly impressed.

This way they get much more wound up which makes it much funnier.

For me, even if we go out to croatia this world cup has been a hugr success for england for me.

We played really well in a game (it was only panama but we've struggled v shit teams in the past), we got to the quarter finals (and now semi finals!), which was what i hoped we'd do and so far we've not been embarrassed or well beaten.

No one is wound up except a few english posters. Never thought I would see english fans being so precious about having a fairly easy run so far in the competition. Has to be little man syndrome I guess.

 

[Alex99]

@Alex99 without writing an essay to say it, it’s simple really, England havnt played any of Germany, Spain, Argentina, Brazil etc to get to a WC semi final, forget their performances, even the stature of the countries could have got in England’s head, who knows

England had never won a World Cup penalty shootout but they did that against Colombia after falling behind during it. I'd bank on this England side over the Spain, Argentina and Germany sides in this tournament every time, and I'd fancy them against Brazil too.

You can't just speculate that because "it's Germany" England would bottle it when Germany were shite.

 

[Kostov]

I’d prefer Lingard and Rashford to get the medal because they came up through the academy. I’ve a particular soft spot for Jesse, who’s had so many doubters in recent years.

Pogba or Lukaku winning a medal would soften the blow if they didn’t. Basically anyone bar Croatia winning is all good.

Yes, anyone but Croatia is a win-win situation for United fans, even though part of me want the Croats to win it as well. It would be nice if an Ex-Yugoslavian republic win such a huge honor.

I really don't have a favorite in all this, but as you said, our own local lads winning the prize would be huge.

 

[Zachari]

This English run does feel the same way Liverpool’s cl this year. I wonder whether France is going to be England’s RM?

Coming from “anybody but England” club member, member of “anybody but Liverpool” club as well

P.S. However the last days I am really starting warming towards the idea of England winning it, but only if you really promise to create some hood show while celebrating it.

 

[Revan]

youre writing hundreds of words to dispell the england had it easy narrative when they played sweden and colombia without james. there are two certainties in life. one is that england had an easy route and the other is that muse is a shit one trick band

Go feck a gay donkey!

 

[Honest John]

No idea why anyone would care about this. Without stating the obvious, in tournament football you can only beat what's put in front of you. If we win it, nobody in England will care whether we beat the best sides on route. If we can get past Croatia then since its either France or Belgium in the final, either of which could be considered the best side in the tournament in terms of form.

This. All cup competitions have the capacity to throw up what people believe to be the 'easier' route.

But taking the broader view, all 32 teams are there because they qualified after a two year campaign.

There are big differences in quality across the various confederations.

As usual it pretty much came down to Europe v Latin America.

There were some big sides left in the last 16.

Colombia certainly were not being dismissed as easy as far as I could see.

And they weren't. It was a tough and ugly match.

Sweden too were being heralded as solid and organised and difficult to beat.

Now Croatia. Many peoples dark horses.

In the groups they looked very good indeed.

But in the knockout stages they haven't impressed as much.

We thought Belgium would beat Japan easily. That didn't happen did it.

All four teams that are left can go on and win it and all four are beatable.

 

[Judas]

England haven't beaten an elite nation in a world cup knockout match since Germany in 1966. If they can get past their group then their world cup invariably ends the moment they come up against one of the big boys*. When they have gone out in a group stage game it's always been against a big nation too (Spain in 82, Uruguay last time).

The weird thing this time is that they won't have to play a big side until (I suspect) they play France in the final, which just goes to show how much difference a good draw can make.

*
1970 Germany in the quarter final
1986 Argentina in quarter final
1990 Germany in the semi final
1998 Argentina in the last 16
2002 Brazil in the quarter final
2006 Portugal in the quarter final
2010 Germany in the last 16

Not very good team in losing to better teams shock.

 

[2mufc0]

For sure. I’ve been genuinely taken aback by the sensitivity of you lot. As though you’re morally obliged to support England if you support an English team, or holding an opinion that England have had a decent run of fixtures makes you bitter. It’s such bizarre behaviour I’m honestly struggling to work out which posts are serious and which posts are a parody. So yours wasn’t serious? Ok.

Yeah been seeing this a lot on here. This place is full of people from different countries who will want different countries to do well fro different reasons. Not everyone who doesn't support England is 'salty' 'bitter' 'jealous' 'hater' etc..

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

It's just amazing how much worse Sweden and Colombia became once we beat them. It's quite the rewriting of history.

Colombia are decent - around the level of a team you'd expect to meet in R16, and it came down to penalties
But Sweden - if they were an English club side they'd be a good Championship side, I can't recall anyone talking them up pre-tournament
Croatia are also a decent team and that will be a big test for England but, at semi-final stage you'd usually be expecting to meet one of the elite sides

After the Group stage, its been like watching two different tournaments - one with lots of top teams and high quality games, and the other a bunch of indifferent teams in rather scrappy matches. Weird

Its like the PDC and the BDO darts championships being played at the same time - and when we get to the final the winners of both will play each other, Michael Van Gerwyn vs Martin Wolfie Adams

 

[witchtrials]

Perhaps someone claiming England haven't had an easy route could explain what exactly an easy route would look like. Or are we supposed to think that there is no such thing as an easy route and all draws are exactly as lucky as each other?

 

[Judas]

We were constantly being called arrogant for thinking about the semis and constantly mocked for looking past Sweden, when in truth plenty of us weren't. The we played them and it was a total breeze, they were shite.

 

[Honest John]

Belgium narrowly beat Brazil. Before that their path was just as 'easy'