The Green Shoots of Recovery: Lessons Learned - Patience Imperative!

noodlehair

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Not really....under all three managers we chased unattainable targets who pissed us around for the most part, meaning we ended up going for our 3rd/4th choice players at the last minute or playing it safe and signing players recommended, or known by, the manager

Think back....Thomas Muller, Toni Kroos, Gareth Bale, Neymar, Raphael Varane....sure there where more but that’s off the top of my head

This Summer....we wanted Wan Bissaka, Maguire and James and we got all three. Plus they are totally different types of targets...right age, hungry, attainable, proven PL, certain to have no issues with culture/language and want to join for the right reasons
I think you are inventing differences for the sake of suiting a line of thought.

We have wanted Maguire for two years. James and Bissaka are potentially good signings. We still pissed around trying to sign Dybala, Mandzukic and then Eriksen, then signed no one.

We waited all summer to sign Maguire then paid the price we could have gotten him for 2 months or even 14 months earlier. We are horrendousky short of players in areas it is clear the manager wanted to strengthen, yet found time to persue novelty signings. The whole thing was still a bit of a mess.

I'm optimistic about those we have signed, but it's the manager that the change in strategy is coming from, which is fairly standard when you change manager. A lot of people were equally optimistic about Mourinho's strategy and our signings...and much more so about Van Gaal's strategy and signings. It didn't stop either falling on their face and it didn't cause Woodward ultimately to not feck them around with his incompetence.

I want Ole to do well and am a long way from writing him off, but I've not seen anything from the club or Woodward to suggest they have changed. If Woodward was going to learn he would have by now.
 

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I think you are inventing differences for the sake of suiting a line of thought.

We have wanted Maguire for two years. James and Bissaka are potentially good signings. We still pissed around trying to sign Dybala, Mandzukic and then Eriksen, then signed no one.

We waited all summer to sign Maguire then paid the price we could have gotten him for 2 months or even 14 months earlier. We are horrendousky short of players in areas it is clear the manager wanted to strengthen, yet found time to persue novelty signings. The whole thing was still a bit of a mess.

I'm optimistic about those we have signed, but it's the manager that the change in strategy is coming from, which is fairly standard when you change manager. A lot of people were equally optimistic about Mourinho's strategy and our signings...and much more so about Van Gaal's strategy and signings. It didn't stop either falling on their face and it didn't cause Woodward ultimately to not feck them around with his incompetence.

I want Ole to do well and am a long way from writing him off, but I've not seen anything from the club or Woodward to suggest they have changed. If Woodward was going to learn he would have by now.
We haven't been chasing Maguire for two years, it was only last Summer that Mourinho wanted to sign him, then saw his arse when Ed Woodward said no(and rightly so) because a year earlier Mourinho had said he wasn't interested in him when he was available/offered for £17m.

And we hardly pissed around with Dybala and Mandzukic, Juve desperate to beat Inter to Lukaku reluctantly offered one, or both players in part-exchange, United thought about it as they should, but decided to walk away from any deal, it was all done and dusted within a week.

And Eriksen to United was being pushed by the Press so they could drive the Pogba to Madrid rumours again. Eriksen, SMS or Bruno Fernandes were only ever going to come to Old Trafford this Summer if Paul Pogba had left.
 

dabeast

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Great OP. Unfortunately, we fans are human, and humans are very prone to overvaluing the short term and undervaluing the long.

Here is a possible addendum - We want to win the right way in the future, but we also want to win the wrong way now.

The reason we expect that is because we were certain to win the PL most years under SAF but didn’t see how much work it took to keep us there.

SAF jettisoned players like Beckham and RvN in their prime and kept on winning. He got rid of players with huge potential like Veron. He made mistakes - selling Stam probably contributed to our not winning the title for many years till 2006. He was active and, on a successful base, he rolled the dice and, mostly (until the Glazers sucked us dry), came up trumps.

Ole does not have the same track record, base of success and relative lack of competition with money. So, he will likely not win as much when making his bets. It is the nature of football for a team to lose and there will be much more joy when the Glazers go.

The Glazers will inevitably go, they must since Utd’s popularity and, therefore, valuation are headed down. No investor, especially a debt-fueled one, wants to be around for the downswing.

Remember how it felt to dominate again when Ronaldo and Rooney got going. When the Glazers go and we start to win again, the joy will be extra sweet for having lived through these days.
 
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manunited1919

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I can be patient, very patient.
I can put up with the club not buying any midfielders.
I can put up with no # 10.
I can put up with Ashley Jones at LB for half a season.
I can put up with Pogba wanting to leave because he thinks he is waisting his best football years with a team not going anywhere.
I can put up with our best defender from the last 3 years going out on loan.
I can put up with Phil Jones getting a new contract, while Ander Herrera is allowed to leave on a free.
I can put up with 6 more years of transition.

But please. Just one thing I ask Ole to do to give me hope we are going to get out of the mess we are in: no more Lingard please.
 

manunited1919

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I can be patient, very patient.
I can put up with the club not buying any midfielders.
I can put up with no # 10.
I can put up with Ashley Jones at LB for half a season.
I can put up with Pogba wanting to leave because he thinks he is waisting his best football years with a team not going anywhere.
I can put up with our best defender from the last 3 years going out on loan.
I can put up with Phil Jones getting a new contract, while Ander Herrera is allowed to leave on a free.
I can put up with 6 more years of transition.

But please. Just one thing I ask Ole to do to give me hope we are going to get out of the mess we are in: no more Lingard please.
 

ship50

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Good post and I agree with most of the points. That said, Ole should now extract good performnaces from the players he's got and trusts. He should be ready to come up with a second plan when things go wrong. I do believe that he can do great for us. I am ready to give him more time and wait till he gets some more players. Let us see where we finish this season.
 

noodlehair

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We haven't been chasing Maguire for two years, it was only last Summer that Mourinho wanted to sign him, then saw his arse when Ed Woodward said no(and rightly so) because a year earlier Mourinho had said he wasn't interested in him when he was available/offered for £17m.

And we hardly pissed around with Dybala and Mandzukic, Juve desperate to beat Inter to Lukaku reluctantly offered one, or both players in part-exchange, United thought about it as they should, but decided to walk away from any deal, it was all done and dusted within a week.

And Eriksen to United was being pushed by the Press so they could drive the Pogba to Madrid rumours again. Eriksen, SMS or Bruno Fernandes were only ever going to come to Old Trafford this Summer if Paul Pogba had left.
Again you are just theorizing to suit an argument. You have no idea about any of that. It is very clear we should have signed Maguire a year ago at this point. Any argument which involves claiming Woodward knows more about our team and what it needs than the manager is immediately self defeating.

The idea we were only signing a midfielder or attacking player if Pogba left is very silly. This means you must be happy with the idea of lingard being our no10 for the season and think our midfield options aren't an issue. This was clearly not part of Ole's strategy abd if it was doesn't prove much other than that it's a bad strategy.
 

Kostur

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We haven't been chasing Maguire for two years, it was only last Summer that Mourinho wanted to sign him, then saw his arse when Ed Woodward said no(and rightly so) because a year earlier Mourinho had said he wasn't interested in him when he was available/offered for £17m.

And we hardly pissed around with Dybala and Mandzukic, Juve desperate to beat Inter to Lukaku reluctantly offered one, or both players in part-exchange, United thought about it as they should, but decided to walk away from any deal, it was all done and dusted within a week.

And Eriksen to United was being pushed by the Press so they could drive the Pogba to Madrid rumours again. Eriksen, SMS or Bruno Fernandes were only ever going to come to Old Trafford this Summer if Paul Pogba had left.
?

Pretty much agree with what @noodlehair said before. I for one cannot see an indication that either Woodward or Glazers have decided to change their tactic in our favour with all the restructuring and all that bullshit. How's our DOF of some sorts hunt going by the way? Surely any moment now?
 

Lentwood

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@noodlehair @Kostur

I think we all agree Maguire and AWB are definitely the right kind of signings though, don’t we? Whether they work out or not?

Looking back at Moyes, LvG and Jose, I would say only arguably Shaw and Pogba fit the profile of a player we really should have been desperate to sign - arguably Memphis Depay also

Looking at this summer, apart from the players we did sign, I would have liked to have though that we would be in for De Ligt, Joao Felix and Frenkie De Jong....but it’s understandable that these players would choose Atletico, Juventus and Barcelona over us right now. But next year, three or four more top talents will emerge, and the year after that, and the year after that....

My point is, build a platform with your “bankers” from the PL to get you into a comfortable 3rd/4th sort of standard. Then hopefully we can start attracting the best talent from Europe again.

What I do not want is more Herrera’s, Fellaini’s, Falcao’s, Rojo’s, Darmian’s, Fred’s, Bailly’s, Dalot’s, Lindelof’s etc....etc...hordes of mediocre or washed up players who SOUND exciting because they come from clubs like Bilbao, Sporting, Torino, Shakhtar, Porto, Villarreal etc...but in reality would be mid-table fodder here. If they had the same ability but where called “Paul Watson” and we signed them from Huddersfield, people would lose their s**t, but there is always that bit of fantasy that comes with signing an exciting recruit from another league that comes with the unknown and the stereotype of the technically superior Continental/South American footballer

I also do not want any more Schweinsteigers, Falcao’s, Sanchez’s, Matic’s or ADMs....no connection with the club and joining after they have given someone else their best years for a last payday

I fear had we rushed into signing players like Lo Celso, Ndombele, Mandzukic, Dybala, Bruno Fernandes etc....we would simply have been repeating the mistakes of the past

Nothing against recruits from other leagues at all, but they have to be significantly better than what is available domestically for it to be worth it for me because there is the whole question of them having to adapt and then constantly flirting with the big boys in mainland Europe if they ever become any good

Having said all that, I will of course be EXTREMELY pissed off if we don’t make another three big signings over the next two windows. Clearing the squad is great, now we have to spend what it takes on the right players to steadily climb the table
 

7even

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Yeah, I mean I have more confidence in Ole than I did in Jose by this time last year, or LVG at pretty much any point after he started waffling out self contradictory shite every other sentence...but for all the seemingly right things he says, there has to be a plan in terms of coaching and managing to back it up, and it needs to be effective.

There's only do long anyone's patience will last if we produce performances like at the weekend. Where teams can beat us by doing pretty much nothing due to how clueless we look.
Exactly this! Once again you hit it right in solar plexus.

This weekend against Southampton will be a test of how much patience we all have. Anything less then 3 points then this place will explode. If we lose together with more injuries on one of our key players then we’re in full crisis.

I refuse to believe that recent transfers was part of our initial plan. I’m all in on clearing the deck but at some point we must replace quality with another quality. Replacing Martial with Greenwood is pure gambling and has nothing to do with long term planning or brilliant coaching.

I think we’re done explaining the genius of all movements. Results, and results only is the only thing that talks louder then words at this moment.
 

Slevs

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I'd disagree about the tactical nous.

We dominated Wolves for an entire half (making them play hopeless long balls to Raul) and limited Crystal Palace to very few chances.
 

STYLOISRED

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I can be patient, very patient.
I can put up with the club not buying any midfielders.
I can put up with no # 10.
I can put up with Ashley Jones at LB for half a season.
I can put up with Pogba wanting to leave because he thinks he is waisting his best football years with a team not going anywhere.
I can put up with our best defender from the last 3 years going out on loan.
I can put up with Phil Jones getting a new contract, while Ander Herrera is allowed to leave on a free.
I can put up with 6 more years of transition.

But please. Just one thing I ask Ole to do to give me hope we are going to get out of the mess we are in: no more Lingard please.
Made me laugh and i feel exactly the same.
 

Lynty

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Sums up my opinion, perfectly.

I think there has been a shift in how the club is being run, and it's all good signs.

Even the Lingard as a starter situation. He's been given a 3 game run, which I think is fair (I wish that opportunity was allowed Martial under Jose). If he is still a starter come the end of September and producing nothing good, I think it's fair to criticise Ole's persistence with him at that point.
 

noodlehair

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@noodlehair @Kostur

I think we all agree Maguire and AWB are definitely the right kind of signings though, don’t we? Whether they work out or not?

Looking back at Moyes, LvG and Jose, I would say only arguably Shaw and Pogba fit the profile of a player we really should have been desperate to sign - arguably Memphis Depay also

Looking at this summer, apart from the players we did sign, I would have liked to have though that we would be in for De Ligt, Joao Felix and Frenkie De Jong....but it’s understandable that these players would choose Atletico, Juventus and Barcelona over us right now. But next year, three or four more top talents will emerge, and the year after that, and the year after that....

My point is, build a platform with your “bankers” from the PL to get you into a comfortable 3rd/4th sort of standard. Then hopefully we can start attracting the best talent from Europe again.

What I do not want is more Herrera’s, Fellaini’s, Falcao’s, Rojo’s, Darmian’s, Fred’s, Bailly’s, Dalot’s, Lindelof’s etc....etc...hordes of mediocre or washed up players who SOUND exciting because they come from clubs like Bilbao, Sporting, Torino, Shakhtar, Porto, Villarreal etc...but in reality would be mid-table fodder here. If they had the same ability but where called “Paul Watson” and we signed them from Huddersfield, people would lose their s**t, but there is always that bit of fantasy that comes with signing an exciting recruit from another league that comes with the unknown and the stereotype of the technically superior Continental/South American footballer

I also do not want any more Schweinsteigers, Falcao’s, Sanchez’s, Matic’s or ADMs....no connection with the club and joining after they have given someone else their best years for a last payday

I fear had we rushed into signing players like Lo Celso, Ndombele, Mandzukic, Dybala, Bruno Fernandes etc....we would simply have been repeating the mistakes of the past

Nothing against recruits from other leagues at all, but they have to be significantly better than what is available domestically for it to be worth it for me because there is the whole question of them having to adapt and then constantly flirting with the big boys in mainland Europe if they ever become any good

Having said all that, I will of course be EXTREMELY pissed off if we don’t make another three big signings over the next two windows. Clearing the squad is great, now we have to spend what it takes on the right players to steadily climb the table
Hindsight is easy though. When Jose took over and we signed Pogba, Mhikitaryan, Bailly and Zlatan, these were all the "right type of players"...a couple of years later two had left the club, one barely played and the other had fallen out with the manager. I think Zlatan was the only one that attracted scepticism at the time and arguably he was the only success story of the lot. Pogba obviously is still here and could be a very important player this season, but you can't say he worked out for Mourinho when he was one of the main factors in Mourinho being sacked.

I'm very pleased with all three of our signings, but they don't in themselves indicate a change in strategy from Woodward. We did try to rush into a deal for Dybala. We tried to shoe horn him into a deal to get rid of Lukaku...there was very little strategy behind that. Ole is the one who has said he doesn't want players who don't want to be here, not Woodward. I'd like to think it was Ole who got to have a say and said the deal wasn't worth it, but it could just as easily have been down to nothing more than Woodward not being able to justify the numbers and hassle involved.

Ole has been fairly clear that we did not strengthen in all the areas we wanted to, and also mentioned the unhelpful timing of the Maguire signing. These are the same sort of things you would hear from Jose and LVG. We have loaned a player to another club and are still paying his wages. The same thing we did with Rooney...which at the time was dressed up as being a goodwill gesture to him for his service to us. I'm not sure how that works with Sanchez. We lost Herrera in the summer and have a difficult situation with De Gea due to our bizarre strategy with player contracts. It will take more to convince me the club as a whole has learned any lessons. At the moment we're still bogged down by mistakes and bad strategy, and still seemto be making new mistakes and continuing with bad strategies.

I'm encouraged by a lot of what Ole says. Basically everything he says is what I want to see. An identity, a team who works hard and is hungry. A standard of performance that players need to meet. Exciting football and positivity. It's all just words though and needs to be backed up, which even though I'm 100% sure Ole intends to do, is much easier said than done, and will require patience and backing from the club...and that part I'm not convinced he will get any more of than the managers before him. If we start seeing evidence on the pitch of us having a plan, improving in areas where we currently seem to have no clue (e.g. set pieces), then I would give Ole as much time as he needs until that evidence disappears. I'm not sure everyone will see it that way and I'm sceptical as to whether the club will see it that way or allow a platform for it to be possible. We'll wait and see. The signings in theory all fit in well with what Ole says he wants to do, so it's impossible to use them as a negative imo. There's a lot more to it than signing players though.

THe problem is it comes back to what I said before. If we turn out on the pitch as we did against Palace. Standing there gormlessly waiting for the game to win itself, then falling into a dissorganised panic when we do try to take some initiative, it gives little incentive for patience from either fans or the club itself. At the moment it's a one off game early in the season. It really needs to not be a pattern this season. For everything else to have a chance of falling into place, the performances on the pitch need to start showing a purpose and direction...even if the results and quality don't immediately follow, that at least gives people something to put a level of trust into.
 

Beaucoup

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On the one hand the club are suggesting patience in rebuilding the squad but on the other hand they can’t wait to ship as many players out in one window, doesn’t seem like a well balanced coherent strategy to me.
 

Class of 63

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Again you are just theorizing to suit an argument. You have no idea about any of that. It is very clear we should have signed Maguire a year ago at this point. Any argument which involves claiming Woodward knows more about our team and what it needs than the manager is immediately self defeating.

The idea we were only signing a midfielder or attacking player if Pogba left is very silly. This means you must be happy with the idea of lingard being our no10 for the season and think our midfield options aren't an issue. This was clearly not part of Ole's strategy abd if it was doesn't prove much other than that it's a bad strategy.
I could be 100% wrong on the Maguire situation, there's always that possibility, but i'd be staggered having read numerous articles/books over the years(as i'm sure you have) about how Agents go about their work that once Hull City/Maguire/Leicester City had come to an agreement that Maguire's Agent would have immediately send a circular to every other club in the Premier League, and those known to have money in the Championship to ask if they could match the agreed fee(£12m + £5m in add-ons), and match or better the agreed wages, he wouldn't be doing his job properly if he didn't.

The probability(theorizing again))is that Mourinho preferred Lindelof over Maguire in 2017 and the club backed him on that and rightly so, but if he wanted both the club was right to say it's either/or having signed Bailly the previous season until he sold one or more of the centre-backs on the books at the time, as they were right last Summer to refuse to pay the asking price which had now quadrupled after one decent Premier League season(he didn't pull up any trees!)when the same Manager didn't want him, or chose to sign somebody else(Lindelof)only 12 months previous.

And on midfield, the club basically admitted early in the window that Sergej Milinković-Savić was not a viable target unless Paul Pogba were to leave. Personally i'd take SMS over Pogba every single day of the week, but that's for another day, another thread.

Whether I feel Lingard is good enough to play no.10 is unimportant, the club aren't going to listen to me, though the World would be a better place if they did. ;)
 

rotherham_red

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Hindsight is easy though. When Jose took over and we signed Pogba, Mhikitaryan, Bailly and Zlatan, these were all the "right type of players"...a couple of years later two had left the club, one barely played and the other had fallen out with the manager. I think Zlatan was the only one that attracted scepticism at the time and arguably he was the only success story of the lot. Pogba obviously is still here and could be a very important player this season, but you can't say he worked out for Mourinho when he was one of the main factors in Mourinho being sacked.

I'm very pleased with all three of our signings, but they don't in themselves indicate a change in strategy from Woodward. We did try to rush into a deal for Dybala. We tried to shoe horn him into a deal to get rid of Lukaku...there was very little strategy behind that. Ole is the one who has said he doesn't want players who don't want to be here, not Woodward. I'd like to think it was Ole who got to have a say and said the deal wasn't worth it, but it could just as easily have been down to nothing more than Woodward not being able to justify the numbers and hassle involved.

Ole has been fairly clear that we did not strengthen in all the areas we wanted to, and also mentioned the unhelpful timing of the Maguire signing. These are the same sort of things you would hear from Jose and LVG. We have loaned a player to another club and are still paying his wages. The same thing we did with Rooney...which at the time was dressed up as being a goodwill gesture to him for his service to us. I'm not sure how that works with Sanchez. We lost Herrera in the summer and have a difficult situation with De Gea due to our bizarre strategy with player contracts. It will take more to convince me the club as a whole has learned any lessons. At the moment we're still bogged down by mistakes and bad strategy, and still seemto be making new mistakes and continuing with bad strategies.

I'm encouraged by a lot of what Ole says. Basically everything he says is what I want to see. An identity, a team who works hard and is hungry. A standard of performance that players need to meet. Exciting football and positivity. It's all just words though and needs to be backed up, which even though I'm 100% sure Ole intends to do, is much easier said than done, and will require patience and backing from the club...and that part I'm not convinced he will get any more of than the managers before him. If we start seeing evidence on the pitch of us having a plan, improving in areas where we currently seem to have no clue (e.g. set pieces), then I would give Ole as much time as he needs until that evidence disappears. I'm not sure everyone will see it that way and I'm sceptical as to whether the club will see it that way or allow a platform for it to be possible. We'll wait and see. The signings in theory all fit in well with what Ole says he wants to do, so it's impossible to use them as a negative imo. There's a lot more to it than signing players though.

THe problem is it comes back to what I said before. If we turn out on the pitch as we did against Palace. Standing there gormlessly waiting for the game to win itself, then falling into a dissorganised panic when we do try to take some initiative, it gives little incentive for patience from either fans or the club itself. At the moment it's a one off game early in the season. It really needs to not be a pattern this season. For everything else to have a chance of falling into place, the performances on the pitch need to start showing a purpose and direction...even if the results and quality don't immediately follow, that at least gives people something to put a level of trust into.
Juve offered Dybala, we weren't chasing that deal at all. It's probably one of the reasons why the move broke down cos Juve included him in the deal without bothering to see if he was up for it.

The issue is that the squad we have isn't really fit for much purpose. It could do something in the EL if we have the luck of the draw; and because of the inconsistencies of the teams around us, we may be there or thereabouts in the Top 4 race, but it would require an awful lot to go our way.

Ole is doing the best he can with one hand tied behind his back and for that, I'm willing to give him all the time in the world. Ideally he would have got the replacement for Lukaku and the extra midfielder we needed, but it didn't pan out this way. Irrespective, Ole has been positive in his dealings in front of the press and has presented a united front, which is in stark contrast to Jose. It may all still go horribly wrong, but no one should doubt the sincerity of Ole and his desire to get things absolutely right.

Whether it's enough, only time will tell, but after the scarring experiences of the last 3 managers, I'm willing to see where it takes us.
 

Lentwood

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Exactly this! Once again you hit it right in solar plexus.

This weekend against Southampton will be a test of how much patience we all have. Anything less then 3 points then this place will explode. If we lose together with more injuries on one of our key players then we’re in full crisis.

I refuse to believe that recent transfers was part of our initial plan. I’m all in on clearing the deck but at some point we must replace quality with another quality. Replacing Martial with Greenwood is pure gambling and has nothing to do with long term planning or brilliant coaching.

I think we’re done explaining the genius of all movements. Results, and results only is the only thing that talks louder then words at this moment.
But you see this is where we massively disagree - because right now the results are not the most important thing to me

I couldn’t really give a monkeys whether we beat Southampton. Whether we win or lose 4-0 will have no bearing on my opinion of the current squad

I repeat, we have a poor squad and a slightly out of his depth manager. We know this. This is not news.

However, the point I am making (which keeps being missed as I am sure people just read the title and not the whole OP) is that unfortunately we got ourselves in such a mess between 2010 and 2018 that it was always going to have to get worse before it got better.

I see this season as the purge. Who cares where we finish...let us get relegated for all I care....primary goal is get rid of the players who don’t want to be here or who do not fit here. Once we do that, it’s a case of can we bring in the right players second time around with a new focus on young, hungry, proven PL players...I’m saying THIS is where I am optimistic. I am not optimistic about anything I have seen on the pitch or from Ole lately, as it’s mainly been a load of sh**e since last March
 

Lentwood

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I can be patient, very patient.
I can put up with the club not buying any midfielders.
I can put up with no # 10.
I can put up with Ashley Jones at LB for half a season.
I can put up with Pogba wanting to leave because he thinks he is waisting his best football years with a team not going anywhere.
I can put up with our best defender from the last 3 years going out on loan.
I can put up with Phil Jones getting a new contract, while Ander Herrera is allowed to leave on a free.
I can put up with 6 more years of transition.

But please. Just one thing I ask Ole to do to give me hope we are going to get out of the mess we are in: no more Lingard please.
Yeah I agree, in a thread where I preach patience even I have no more patience when it comes to Lingard!
 

wolvored

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But you see this is where we massively disagree - because right now the results are not the most important thing to me

I couldn’t really give a monkeys whether we beat Southampton. Whether we win or lose 4-0 will have no bearing on my opinion of the current squad

I repeat, we have a poor squad and a slightly out of his depth manager. We know this. This is not news.

However, the point I am making (which keeps being missed as I am sure people just read the title and not the whole OP) is that unfortunately we got ourselves in such a mess between 2010 and 2018 that it was always going to have to get worse before it got better.

I see this season as the purge. Who cares where we finish...let us get relegated for all I care....primary goal is get rid of the players who don’t want to be here or who do not fit here. Once we do that, it’s a case of can we bring in the right players second time around with a new focus on young, hungry, proven PL players...I’m saying THIS is where I am optimistic. I am not optimistic about anything I have seen on the pitch or from Ole lately, as it’s mainly been a load of sh**e since last March
Its all well and good having a purge, but are the Glazers going to put their hand in their pockets to replace these players? 3 a year wont cut it. We cant expect Ole to find gems in the reserves. Pogba will be off next season as will De Gea. Do we give young another 12 months next season as well. Too many variables. I would have preferred 3 in 4 out, something like that.
 

Lentwood

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Its all well and good having a purge, but are the Glazers going to put their hand in their pockets to replace these players? 3 a year wont cut it. We cant expect Ole to find gems in the reserves. Pogba will be off next season as will De Gea. Do we give young another 12 months next season as well. Too many variables. I would have preferred 3 in 4 out, something like that.
I’ve been mega critical of the Glazers spending. I spent hours putting together a thread called “The truth about our spending under the Glazers” during the Jose era where I highlighted the fact that it was under-investment from the Glazers that had gotten us into this mess, not managers.

The thing is, post-2014, the Glazers have undeniably spent money. Not as much money as we would like, but fans will always want more. There are maybe only 3/4 clubs in world football who have spent more than us during this period, granted from a much stronger, more settled base.

The problem is, we’re not even close. It can’t possibly be just about money anymore. We’ve finished 7th, 4th, 6th, 6th, 2nd, 6th post-SAF for around a £650m net outlay. Far more than Liverpool who where 8th when Klopp took over and teamed up with Michael Edwards.

What the club needed was a change in strategy of how we spend that money. I am hopeful that this has finally dawned on Ed
 

wolvored

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I’ve been mega critical of the Glazers spending. I spent hours putting together a thread called “The truth about our spending under the Glazers” during the Jose era where I highlighted the fact that it was under-investment from the Glazers that had gotten us into this mess, not managers.

The thing is, post-2014, the Glazers have undeniably spent money. Not as much money as we would like, but fans will always want more. There are maybe only 3/4 clubs in world football who have spent more than us during this period, granted from a much stronger, more settled base.

The problem is, we’re not even close. It can’t possibly be just about money anymore. We’ve finished 7th, 4th, 6th, 6th, 2nd, 6th post-SAF for around a £650m net outlay. Far more than Liverpool who where 8th when Klopp took over and teamed up with Michael Edwards.

What the club needed was a change in strategy of how we spend that money. I am hopeful that this has finally dawned on Ed
Lets hope so, but I wont hold my breath.
 

matt10000

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Totally agree with initial post. Ole may only be able to take is so far but he is the man to take us there. You never know Ole is a very intelligent man, will learn and over a couple of seasons may fine tune his managerial skills and become a top top manager for us. If he doesnt any top manager coming in will be in a good situation
 

Lentwood

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If you read the papers (stop immediately!) you would believe that United are a shambles, the worst we've ever been, leaderless, without hope, without direction.

Now, I don't believe that to be the case. I believe that finally, after 15yrs of bad decisions, we're starting to make some good decisions and that there are some reasons to be positive.

1) We shouldn't focus too much on individual results. Yes we were poor against West Ham but our already thin and inexperienced squad was decimated by injuries. Even allowing for that, it was only two great finishes and a couple of missed chances on our part (Mata and Maguire) that separated the two teams. I'll warn fans now, there will be plenty more of these bad results to come as the season unfolds. However, when all of our players are fit, I still believe that we are comfortably a top six side.

2) Now, I appreciate talking about being 'comfortably a top six side' won't get too many of you excited about the idea of being positive! However, clearly the club are in the process of undoing the mistakes they have made post-SAF. We had assembled a very expensive side of mercenary footballers, nearly men and players with contrasting styles. The objective, since Ole came in, has clearly been to get rid of these players. We've seen Fellaini, Herrera, Darmian, Smalling, Lukaku, Sanchez and Valencia leave since last January and I for one am not sorry to see any of them go.

3) However, obviously letting these senior players go is going to hurt us in the short-term. Sanchez is a much better player than Chong. Lukaku is a much better CF than Marcus Rashford. Herrera is a much better midfielder than Pereira. Nevertheless, none of those players were up to the standard required - remember, we haven't just been bad this season, we've been bad for nearly six years! Now the challenge is to replace them, but again I am not sorry that we didn't attempt to do that in one window. I can say with certainty that had we tried to bring in six or seven players last summer, we would have been right back to square one in two seasons time complaining about more flops and more deadwood

4) So what of the signings we did make? Well, I think fairly unanimously across the board, we all agree that James, Maguire and AWB are all the right type of signing. They all improve the team, they are all the right age and they all have the right attitude. James was a gamble that appears to be paying off - the type of signing RedCafe regulars have championed for years. Maguire and AWB were safe bets. No longer are we pissing around in the £10m-£30m market for defenders, we went straight in with the big bucks for two top talents and paid the necessary.

5) So, imagine if we continue with this approach into next Summer. It is very clear to all that we need an attack-minded CM/AMC and wingers/a CF. Let's say that by the end of next Summer, we have added three more quality players to the squad, one CM, one AMC, one CF. Suddenly, throw Paul Pogba, Martial, James and Rashford into the equation and we've not only got a solid back four, we've a solid midfield and an exciting attack

6) In previous seasons, it's been hard to know where the re-build should begin. At times, it's looked as though all XI outfield players needed to be replaced. I think we're starting to get to the point were we have six/seven very good players in the starting XI, admittedly supported by three or four who probably are not the standard required. This can be easily fixed though, we're still a big club with big cash reserves.

7) Many will notice I have not commented on Ole. I personally do not believe Ole is the man to win trophies at Man Utd. HOWEVER, I do believe he is the right man for the job right now. What's required now is a man who, to a certain extent, is just happy to be there. A man who is positive and will have most of the fans and ex-players on side. Many have accused Ole of being a puppet, but I really fail to see how moaning and whingeing about signings helps anybody, especially not in September when the window is shut! Let's allow Ole to oversee the clearout and keep things ticking over, then when we have the squad in-shape and ready to challenge top four/top two, we thank Ole for his efforts and move for a manager like Pochettino.

So in summary, it's not all doom and gloom. Yes, it's going to be tough at times this season, however, change can be hard and pursuing quick fixes is what's gotten us into this mess. Let's get behind Ole and the team this season and try to rise above the toxic fans and toxic media. Of course fans want the Board to spend more money, make more signings etc.... but it has to be done the right way.
 

Sky1981

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I dont buy this unbalanced squad thing.

We dont have the players for total football. But we should have enough to play basic 4231 or 4321 or even 442 or 451. Which should be enough to buy us time till the next window.

And even if we do have the players, they'll ended up being played at any other position than their natural position.

We have mata at rw. Rashford at rw. Rashford as striker. Pogba as dm. Young as rb.

Just go back to basic formation. If we dont have a player for one or two position throw the kids there and persevere. All this tinkering is actually making things more complicated than it is.

Sure our basic formations cant win the league. But there will be stability and consistency we can built and improve.

Ole needs to grow a balls and decide. If he wants rashford as a striker. Play him there or dont play him. Same goes with mata and pogba.
 

Sky1981

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If you read the papers (stop immediately!) you would believe that United are a shambles, the worst we've ever been, leaderless, without hope, without direction.

Now, I don't believe that to be the case. I believe that finally, after 15yrs of bad decisions, we're starting to make some good decisions and that there are some reasons to be positive.

1) We shouldn't focus too much on individual results. Yes we were poor against West Ham but our already thin and inexperienced squad was decimated by injuries. Even allowing for that, it was only two great finishes and a couple of missed chances on our part (Mata and Maguire) that separated the two teams. I'll warn fans now, there will be plenty more of these bad results to come as the season unfolds. However, when all of our players are fit, I still believe that we are comfortably a top six side.

2) Now, I appreciate talking about being 'comfortably a top six side' won't get too many of you excited about the idea of being positive! However, clearly the club are in the process of undoing the mistakes they have made post-SAF. We had assembled a very expensive side of mercenary footballers, nearly men and players with contrasting styles. The objective, since Ole came in, has clearly been to get rid of these players. We've seen Fellaini, Herrera, Darmian, Smalling, Lukaku, Sanchez and Valencia leave since last January and I for one am not sorry to see any of them go.

3) However, obviously letting these senior players go is going to hurt us in the short-term. Sanchez is a much better player than Chong. Lukaku is a much better CF than Marcus Rashford. Herrera is a much better midfielder than Pereira. Nevertheless, none of those players were up to the standard required - remember, we haven't just been bad this season, we've been bad for nearly six years! Now the challenge is to replace them, but again I am not sorry that we didn't attempt to do that in one window. I can say with certainty that had we tried to bring in six or seven players last summer, we would have been right back to square one in two seasons time complaining about more flops and more deadwood

4) So what of the signings we did make? Well, I think fairly unanimously across the board, we all agree that James, Maguire and AWB are all the right type of signing. They all improve the team, they are all the right age and they all have the right attitude. James was a gamble that appears to be paying off - the type of signing RedCafe regulars have championed for years. Maguire and AWB were safe bets. No longer are we pissing around in the £10m-£30m market for defenders, we went straight in with the big bucks for two top talents and paid the necessary.

5) So, imagine if we continue with this approach into next Summer. It is very clear to all that we need an attack-minded CM/AMC and wingers/a CF. Let's say that by the end of next Summer, we have added three more quality players to the squad, one CM, one AMC, one CF. Suddenly, throw Paul Pogba, Martial, James and Rashford into the equation and we've not only got a solid back four, we've a solid midfield and an exciting attack

6) In previous seasons, it's been hard to know where the re-build should begin. At times, it's looked as though all XI outfield players needed to be replaced. I think we're starting to get to the point were we have six/seven very good players in the starting XI, admittedly supported by three or four who probably are not the standard required. This can be easily fixed though, we're still a big club with big cash reserves.

7) Many will notice I have not commented on Ole. I personally do not believe Ole is the man to win trophies at Man Utd. HOWEVER, I do believe he is the right man for the job right now. What's required now is a man who, to a certain extent, is just happy to be there. A man who is positive and will have most of the fans and ex-players on side. Many have accused Ole of being a puppet, but I really fail to see how moaning and whingeing about signings helps anybody, especially not in September when the window is shut! Let's allow Ole to oversee the clearout and keep things ticking over, then when we have the squad in-shape and ready to challenge top four/top two, we thank Ole for his efforts and move for a manager like Pochettino.

So in summary, it's not all doom and gloom. Yes, it's going to be tough at times this season, however, change can be hard and pursuing quick fixes is what's gotten us into this mess. Let's get behind Ole and the team this season and try to rise above the toxic fans and toxic media. Of course fans want the Board to spend more money, make more signings etc.... but it has to be done the right way.
You seems to think that ole is fail proof. Has it ever occured to you that there are big probability of ole actually not good enough at this level?

What if he leaves us in a bigger mess in 3 years? Giving him 3 years comes with no warranty
 

red thru&thru

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Messages
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If you read the papers (stop immediately!) you would believe that United are a shambles, the worst we've ever been, leaderless, without hope, without direction.

Now, I don't believe that to be the case. I believe that finally, after 15yrs of bad decisions, we're starting to make some good decisions and that there are some reasons to be positive.

1) We shouldn't focus too much on individual results. Yes we were poor against West Ham but our already thin and inexperienced squad was decimated by injuries. Even allowing for that, it was only two great finishes and a couple of missed chances on our part (Mata and Maguire) that separated the two teams. I'll warn fans now, there will be plenty more of these bad results to come as the season unfolds. However, when all of our players are fit, I still believe that we are comfortably a top six side.

2) Now, I appreciate talking about being 'comfortably a top six side' won't get too many of you excited about the idea of being positive! However, clearly the club are in the process of undoing the mistakes they have made post-SAF. We had assembled a very expensive side of mercenary footballers, nearly men and players with contrasting styles. The objective, since Ole came in, has clearly been to get rid of these players. We've seen Fellaini, Herrera, Darmian, Smalling, Lukaku, Sanchez and Valencia leave since last January and I for one am not sorry to see any of them go.

3) However, obviously letting these senior players go is going to hurt us in the short-term. Sanchez is a much better player than Chong. Lukaku is a much better CF than Marcus Rashford. Herrera is a much better midfielder than Pereira. Nevertheless, none of those players were up to the standard required - remember, we haven't just been bad this season, we've been bad for nearly six years! Now the challenge is to replace them, but again I am not sorry that we didn't attempt to do that in one window. I can say with certainty that had we tried to bring in six or seven players last summer, we would have been right back to square one in two seasons time complaining about more flops and more deadwood

4) So what of the signings we did make? Well, I think fairly unanimously across the board, we all agree that James, Maguire and AWB are all the right type of signing. They all improve the team, they are all the right age and they all have the right attitude. James was a gamble that appears to be paying off - the type of signing RedCafe regulars have championed for years. Maguire and AWB were safe bets. No longer are we pissing around in the £10m-£30m market for defenders, we went straight in with the big bucks for two top talents and paid the necessary.

5) So, imagine if we continue with this approach into next Summer. It is very clear to all that we need an attack-minded CM/AMC and wingers/a CF. Let's say that by the end of next Summer, we have added three more quality players to the squad, one CM, one AMC, one CF. Suddenly, throw Paul Pogba, Martial, James and Rashford into the equation and we've not only got a solid back four, we've a solid midfield and an exciting attack

6) In previous seasons, it's been hard to know where the re-build should begin. At times, it's looked as though all XI outfield players needed to be replaced. I think we're starting to get to the point were we have six/seven very good players in the starting XI, admittedly supported by three or four who probably are not the standard required. This can be easily fixed though, we're still a big club with big cash reserves.

7) Many will notice I have not commented on Ole. I personally do not believe Ole is the man to win trophies at Man Utd. HOWEVER, I do believe he is the right man for the job right now. What's required now is a man who, to a certain extent, is just happy to be there. A man who is positive and will have most of the fans and ex-players on side. Many have accused Ole of being a puppet, but I really fail to see how moaning and whingeing about signings helps anybody, especially not in September when the window is shut! Let's allow Ole to oversee the clearout and keep things ticking over, then when we have the squad in-shape and ready to challenge top four/top two, we thank Ole for his efforts and move for a manager like Pochettino.

So in summary, it's not all doom and gloom. Yes, it's going to be tough at times this season, however, change can be hard and pursuing quick fixes is what's gotten us into this mess. Let's get behind Ole and the team this season and try to rise above the toxic fans and toxic media. Of course fans want the Board to spend more money, make more signings etc.... but it has to be done the right way.
Some great points.

However, for me, I'm just getting tired of Ed and his lies and direction.

Firstly, the DoF/TD...still no sign of this. Especially as it had been briefed that we would get one before the summer and the instalment of a permanent manager, after Jose got sacked.

Secondly, giving Ole the job. After Jose got the sack, it was clearly said that a permanent wouldn't installed until the summer. Low and behold, after about 14 games, he gives Ole the job. What happens after that? We all know what happened to our performances after that. Again, Ed jumped the gun.

Thirdly, the summer acquisitions. The three signings are great. But don't tell me it is going to take lots of windows to sort out this mess. If the Glazer's wanted to spend the money, we could have. Look at Atletico. They went out and revamped their squad with 9 new signings. As we are one of the three biggest clubs in the world, a similar approach from us would have been easy to do.

There are many other reasons why I'm not optimistic but mainly it is due to the past 7 years and not knowing what direction Ed is going to turn, in any given moment.
 

redshaw

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I really hate these blanket assertions.

You need to give a list of names where people are saying one thing and going back on it. It's not some hive mind, different people are giving their opinions. It is not caf saying one thing then another.

Just because poster A doesn't want Dybala and then comes poster B saying we should sign Dybala doesn't mean caf or any forum or group is changing their mind.

Also one can easily say lets sign Dybala for 60-80m but have serious reservations spending 200 million on Neymar. Doesn't mean they've gone back on big names.
 

Lentwood

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One further point on the spending front

I have been as critical of the Glazers on spending as anybody - check out my thread "The truth about our spending under the Glazers", it took my hours to research/write and at the time was a defence of our managers CRUCIALLY against the idea that they should be winning the league given the money we had spent.

However, when we're talking about a side that's currently mid-table and has no senior wingers, CF or #10, it's difficult to argue that money alone has caused this problem when £900m+ has been spent since 2014. Clearly, there are other issues at play here.

It's worth pointing out that we are a business, yes, ultimately ran for the benefit of shareholders. We're not Man City or PSG, who let's face it are financially doping. We made a £44m loss in 2018. Now, I get we all want to spend more money on transfers, but remember, if we had spent another £100m in 2018, all that would do is add to our debts. Would it make us any better? Debatable - depends how that money was spent!
 

red thru&thru

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One further point on the spending front

I have been as critical of the Glazers on spending as anybody - check out my thread "The truth about our spending under the Glazers", it took my hours to research/write and at the time was a defence of our managers CRUCIALLY against the idea that they should be winning the league given the money we had spent.

However, when we're talking about a side that's currently mid-table and has no senior wingers, CF or #10, it's difficult to argue that money alone has caused this problem when £900m+ has been spent since 2014. Clearly, there are other issues at play here.

It's worth pointing out that we are a business, yes, ultimately ran for the benefit of shareholders. We're not Man City or PSG, who let's face it are financially doping. We made a £44m loss in 2018. Now, I get we all want to spend more money on transfers, but remember, if we had spent another £100m in 2018, all that would do is add to our debts. Would it make us any better? Debatable - depends how that money was spent!

These excuses have not much weight, especially as we seen what the like of Lfc and Spurs have done.
 

VanGaalyTime

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Messages
2,126
One further point on the spending front

I have been as critical of the Glazers on spending as anybody - check out my thread "The truth about our spending under the Glazers", it took my hours to research/write and at the time was a defence of our managers CRUCIALLY against the idea that they should be winning the league given the money we had spent.

However, when we're talking about a side that's currently mid-table and has no senior wingers, CF or #10, it's difficult to argue that money alone has caused this problem when £900m+ has been spent since 2014. Clearly, there are other issues at play here.

It's worth pointing out that we are a business, yes, ultimately ran for the benefit of shareholders. We're not Man City or PSG, who let's face it are financially doping. We made a £44m loss in 2018. Now, I get we all want to spend more money on transfers, but remember, if we had spent another £100m in 2018, all that would do is add to our debts. Would it make us any better? Debatable - depends how that money was spent!
900m since 2014? There has only been one year we spent over 150m in the summer market, which itself is a disgrace for a club with our spending power. Five years during which we spent 80m on average does not equal 900m. Only City get close to that.
 

Lentwood

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900m since 2014? There has only been one year we spent over 150m in the summer market, which itself is a disgrace for a club with our spending power. Five years during which we spent 80m on average does not equal 900m. Only City get close to that.
Manchester United rank 5th in the list of biggest spending teams this decade - behind only Chelsea (sugar daddy), Man City (sugar daddy), PSG (sugar daddy) and Barcelona

So it's not really a 'disgrace' is it? You're being taken in by toxic Twitter trolls like that Mike bloke and Michael Tunstall. Unless you advocate spending beyond our means and growing the debt?
 

Bestietom

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It strikes me that many members of this forum don't know what they want.

- They want a clear-out but they don't want players to leave.
- They want experienced, 'complete' footballers who are young, hungry and can be developed the 'Manchester United way'.
- They want an experienced manager who is a proven winner but also someone very trendy and 'modern', unlike those dinosaurs LvG and Jose.
- They want the club to throw money at players but they don't want to waste any more money on overpaid mercenaries.
- They don't want 'Galatico' signings but they do want Bale, Neymar and Dybala.
- They want our Scouts to identify young, talented players before they become household names but they complain when we sign young, talented players who are not already household names
- They want to implement a 'long-term' strategy but they want to tear up the plan every time we lose a football match

I believe all of the above comes from short-termism and the desire to 'have their cake and eat it', symptomatic of the 'NuFootball' fan. The NuFootball fan is a strange creature who likes to share football-related "hilarious" banter memes on Facebook, refers to our rivals as 'Loserpool' and 'Shitteh' and has never actually kicked a football, nor been to a football game, bar the odd occasion they get a free ticket through work or a mate. The problem with this 'fan' is they become so entrenched in the tribalism and petty squabbling they fail to see the big picture.

Let's just make a couple of my opinions clear before I make my points;

- The Glazer takeover has done immeasurable damage to Manchester United, they are blood-thirsty, cretinous, uber-Capitalist parasites who have contributed NOTHING to this club

- Ed Woodward may be, in some sense of the word, a 'smart' man, however, when referring solely to his skills at running the operations of a modern day football club, he is an incompetent buffoon

HOWEVER

As I stated earlier in my post, we cannot, as fans, have our cake and eat it. Over the last six years, the Glazers and Ed have been RIGHTFULLY criticised for;

- Failing to understand the 'United DNA'
- Failing to invest between 2005 and 2014
- Looking for 'quick fixes' as opposed to long-term strategic planning
- Throwing money at mercenary footballers who perform better on Instagram and Twitter than they do on the field
- Sacking managers who are basically hung out to dry, effectively fighting a war against an armoured tank division with what has amounted to water pistols
- Employing managers who's very footballing ethos goes against 'the United way'

NOW

If you look at what the Glazers and Ed have done over the last 12-18 months, it would appear to me that somewhere, somehow, they have had an epiphany. It would appear to me at least that there has been a total shift in mindset and that the foundations are now (hopefully) being laid for a better future....what makes me say this?

- The club have done what they should have been doing for the last six years and signed the best two AVAILABLE 'young' players in their position from the PL (Maguire and Wan-Bissaka)

- The club have let go of several players who, whilst admittedly may have contributed to varying degrees over the last few seasons, were NEVER really Manchester United players. Either in terms of personality or ability. I am talking here about your Fellaini's, Sanchez's, Lukaku's, Herrera's and HOPEFULLY Rojo's, Darmian's etc...

- The club refused to bow to Dybala's wage demands NOT because we couldn't afford them but because we felt he was joining for the WRONG reasons

- The club immediately distanced themselves from the usual press speculation about signing players like Bale and Neymar

- The club moved to sign a young player with potential from the Championship. Something we never had to do in the past because we were by far the most resource-rich team in the league. Roman, Sheikh Mansour and TV money has changed that.

- They have appointed Ole, a man who understands Manchester United and its History

Now, I can feel the NuFootball lot gnashing their teeth.....'but what about squad depth' they cry....'how will we cope with only three senior forwards', furthermore 'Ole is a novice, a Glazer yes-man with no more tactical nous than a cabbage'. They also bang on about 'net spend' and 'not replacing Player X'.....well I have an answer to all of the above and that is that this situation we are in now is going to have to get A LOT worse before it gets better and I believe the club finally appreciate this. Here's what I think the club have realised;

- A senior football manager like a Jose Mourinho is the antithesis of what we need right now. We cannot afford to spend the £800m+ I believe it would take to transform us into title contenders in one window and therefore we would end up in another situation whereby we have a frustrated manager sat in the dugout, constantly firing shots at the Board and at the players. We do not need this right now. What we need is a positive man, a man who understands the club and his role within it, a man who admittedly, to a certain extent, is happy just to be here. That man is Ole. Is he the best manager out there? Hell no. Does Ed believe he is the best manager out there? I highly doubt it. I believe the Board see Ole as a man who can oversee this painful transitional period with a smile, whilst just about managing to keep just enough players and fans on-side to make it bearable. At the point were we ARE ready to start challenging for titles again, I believe Ole will make way for a more senior, tactical aware manager who will then go to war with a proper squad of footballers.

- Signing mercenaries and expecting players who performed well for other teams in other positions/formations/styles to slot straight in and produce a 'quick fix' is NOT the way forward. This never, ever works. All of the very best teams are constructed, not bought in one window. What we need now is to identify the right players at the right age and steadily, over the course of four or five windows, build a team. We will lose players like De Gea and Pogba along the way, but this is a hangover of poor choices made in the past. In De Gea's case, we wasted his best years and his powers are now waning. In Pogba's, we failed to find the right players to get the best out of him and keep him happy in a side challenging for trophies. He won't want to, nor should he, waste two/three more seasons pissing about in 6th. This will make it more difficult to build a strong squad but IF we keep identifying the RIGHT players, at the RIGHT age and adding two/three at a time, it ought only be three seasons max before we can at least compete for second

- We need to get rid of the players who don't WANT to be here or who are not good enough to be here as quickly as possible, even if we don't have replacements lined up. A common mistake the NuFootball lot make is that they have gained their experience of buying and selling football players from Football Manager 2018. They think you can simply transfer list 12 players, sell them for asking price before July and spend the money on 5 replacements. Sorry but this is so far from the reality it's laughable. Selling players is almost as complicated as buying players for a club like Manchester United. Our players by default are on big wages and by virtue of the fact we want to sell them, it's unlikely other clubs who could afford their wages would touch them with a barge pole. That means that IF the club identify that Lukaku is NOT the striker to take us forward as a club and there is an offer of £75m on the table, then we HAVE to take it whether a replacement is lined up or not. Does this weaken us short-term? Of course it does, because right now Lukaku and Sanchez are better players than Greenwood, however, next window and the window after we SHOULD have cash, wages and squad positions free to target the players I outlined earlier - the best young players from the PL (and the odd one from elsewhere) in their positions.

So in summary, I believe;

- The Glazers and Ed have learned something from the Jose debacle and the last 6yrs
- Ole is basically a 'long-term caretaker' overseeing the transition phase
- Money IS available but we won't just throw it around anymore. NOT a bad thing at all.
- The club want to get back to signing two/three top young, hungry players at a time, as opposed to hordes of mediocre 'established' footballers (and I include your Lo Celso's and Ndombele's and Icardi's and Fernandes' in that 'hordes of mediocre' category)

However, that all being said, in terms of league position and points gained, this season IS going to be very, very painful. We've left ourselves very thin, our squad is lacking in quality and we have a manager who doesn't appear to have much tactical nous. What we need to appreciate as fans is that this is a result of poor choices made between 2005 and 2018 and just repeating these poor choices MIGHT scrape us 4th on the odd occasion but will never get us back to where we want to be. For that, we need open heart surgery and unfortunately, where going to be very weak for a while before HOPEFULLY making a full recovery

Patience is a virtue. Don't come on here wailing every time we lose one football match. Understand the big picture. Still appreciate the damage that the Glazers and Ed have done to our club. Let's just hope that the green shoots on display are not a mirage!
Very well written.
 

VanGaalyTime

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Manchester United rank 5th in the list of biggest spending teams this decade - behind only Chelsea (sugar daddy), Man City (sugar daddy), PSG (sugar daddy) and Barcelona

So it's not really a 'disgrace' is it? You're being taken in by toxic Twitter trolls like that Mike bloke and Michael Tunstall. Unless you advocate spending beyond our means and growing the debt?
Except our owners have taken a billion out. Literally no player should be beyond the means of Manchester United. Our wealth is unprecedented and we barely go above 50% wages to turnover even with Sanchez and overpaying Rashford. If we simply spent 200m per year until the team was fixed we could easily take a few windows out of the market. Unless you believe this team is fine and doesn't need any new additions? We're probably 6 players away from competing for the title, 3 from getting into the top 4 and maybe 1 from getting in the top 6. Why is United in this position? It's certainly not from overspending.
 

red thru&thru

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So.....you're agreeing with me?
I'm saying we have spent a lot of money but have spent it unwisely. We haven't got the correct people in place to spend the money properly. I'd like to see someone like Rangnick and Mitchell together at United, looking after our football and recruitment.
 

redIndianDevil

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Our football is not going to improve just by making signings, if making good buys is all it takes to play good football, there wouldn't be so many managers. We may have lucked out with the signings this summer but it won't be the same next window, buying a attacking midfielder, winger is quite different to signing a CB and a defensive RB.

Attacking midfielders ,wingers, creative midfielders shine in different systems and different styles of play, Klopp's system makes use of workhorses like Henderson, Milner very effectively in the midfield whereas they wouldn't work as well for a midfield in Guardiola's system. My point it, it doesn't take just a collection of players to play well, we need a coach who can actually coach our team, so far OGS has done nothing, the longer he stays in the job the worse we seem to get.
 

Lentwood

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Except our owners have taken a billion out. Literally no player should be beyond the means of Manchester United. Our wealth is unprecedented and we barely go above 50% wages to turnover even with Sanchez and overpaying Rashford. If we simply spent 200m per year until the team was fixed we could easily take a few windows out of the market. Unless you believe this team is fine and doesn't need any new additions? We're probably 6 players away from competing for the title, 3 from getting into the top 4 and maybe 1 from getting in the top 6. Why is United in this position? It's certainly not from overspending.
Our wealth is not 'unprecedented', our wealth is more or less in-line with Real and Barcelona and we have spent, more or less, in-line with Real Madrid and Barcelona

When talking about wealth, it's also worth pointing out that you cannot compare a club ran 'for profit' (like 99.9% of clubs in world football) with PSG, Chelsea and Man City. All three of these clubs have owners who have swallowed huge losses to get them where they are today.

You ask 'why are we in this position' - we are in this position because between 2005 and 2014 we didn't spend enough money and then post-2014, we have spent money without a plan. My point is that 'the Glazers have taken out £1BN' and 'we're suffering from under-investment' are daft arguments to make when we've barely scraped a top four finish in six years after spending £900m

Do you think it's impossible that there are any other reasons for our decline than just 'lack of investment'?
 

JonDahl

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We may have lucked out with the signings this summer but it won't be the same next window, buying a attacking midfielder, winger is quite different to signing a CB and a defensive RB.
This is the sort of attitude I don’t get. You have NO idea what our summer window will be like, yet you choose to believe already that it’ll be crap - when we have, for the first time in over half a decade, actually signed players that have come in, done well and have been our best players.

We’ve had one window of this new transfer policy, under a new manager and so far it’s worked. We’ve got rid of players that most deemed “not good enough” (despite the crying that we need them all of sudden because we aren’t winning every week, even though we were in this mess with the same players). We’ve signed two, youngsters who add something to the team (AWB is by far and away the best rb we’ve had since Rafael) and an experienced centre back to finally start sorting out our shoddy backline.

And here you are complaining that our next window won’t be good. A pointlessly negative opinion based on absolutely nothing. I bet you were the type to be jumping for joy when we signed Falcao, then complain about Woodward when he turned out to be a flop. The exact type of “fan” described in the first post.