The Higher Education Thread | First University with £18k pa fees to open

[Team Brian GB]

As opposed, say, to cordoning off some large area around her, including anyone there for completely unrelated reasons, forcing them to remain there for hours, and beating to death anyone who tries to leave?

The police have such rights, petition the British Embassy in Washington if you have concerns. I don't like restrictions on Westminster protest or the fact that every offence can see you arrested on top of free expression being watered down but the law is the law. With regard to kettling as I have said a gazillion times, the police maintain that right, when people are breaking the law, and they are doing it in large crowds, they have not many options open to them.

Or would you prefer water cannons or tear gas as many of our European cousins do.

 

[Excal]

As I said that is regrettable, but you should have common sense to be nowhere near the police with batons out when they're containing crowds.

With regards to guns, tell me, what would happen if the police had their guns out on you wherever it is that you live, and you walked right up to them?

I would probably be the victim of a violent crime committed by the people who are supposed to be protecting me from that sort of thing, and when any inquiry is made into why an unarmed, nonviolent man was murdered where he stood, the right-wing-asshole chorus will chime in with their usual "It's regrettable, but he should have had the common sense" bullshit, (though our right-wing assholes do tend to be somewhat less refined than yours, so they'd probably just assume I'd done something to deserve it.)

 

[Excal]

The police have such rights

Apparently somewhat less than they think they do, according to your courts.

 

[Team Brian GB]

I would probably be the victim of a violent crime committed by the people who are supposed to be protecting me from that sort of thing, and when any inquiry is made into why an unarmed, nonviolent man was murdered where he stood, the right-wing-asshole chorus will chime in with their usual "It's regrettable, but he should have had the common sense" bullshit, (though our right-wing assholes do tend to be somewhat less refined than yours, so they'd probably just assume I'd done something to deserve it.)

What can I say, it was regrettable, it shouldn't have happened, but it did.

 

[Team Brian GB]

Apparently somewhat less than they think they do, according to your courts.

Parliament will likely legislate to overrule them, they've been meaning to give the police additional powers following recent protests.

 

[Excal]

Parliament will likely legislate to overrule them, they've been meaning to give the police additional powers following recent protests.

Which was, I think, the crux of my preference for the American federal system rather than the British; the fact that one body of government, the one most likely to be subject to the political whims of the moment, can overrule the laws of the land.

 

[Team Brian GB]

Which was, I think, the crux of my preference for the American federal system rather than the British; the fact that one body of government, the one most likely to be subject to the political whims of the moment, can overrule the laws of the land.

Who also happen to be the same people who allowed slavery and segregation to be maintained for 180 years of your 225 year history - it goes both ways.

 

[TheReligion]

For what its worth this high court ruling on that kettling case won't change anything.

Further to that, Brian makes alot of good points, even if his views appear a bit extreme.

The country is becoming a soft touch. The people that oppose kettling so whole heartedly should be the first to suggest more suitable tactics to the Police when dealing with sporadic violence in large crowd situations.

It is also okay going on about protesters getting hurt, but how about all the cops and horses that were badly injured/retired due to the thuggish behaviour that has gripped the capital. Both deserve as much press as the other.

 

[Team Brian GB]

I agree with much of that, the fact of the matter is, kettling is the least divisive, most low-key, least resentful and safest way to deal with such situations. There are no alternatives but to get physical whether it be with horses, tear gas or water cannons. That essentially is the rationale of my support for such measures.

 

[TheReligion]

I agree with much of that, the fact of the matter is, kettling is the least divisive, most low-key, least resentful and safest way to deal with such situations. There are no alternatives but to get physical whether it be with horses, tear gas or water cannons. That essentially is the rationale of my support for such measures.

I think that is the key part of all this really, there is really no other option. When you place kettling on a scale with what the rest of the world do in such situations, you really can see how less aggressive British policing tactics are.

 

[Silva]

You referenced the civil rights movement when we're discussing policing with regard to recent protests, just as Miliband referenced the civil rights movement in relation to protesting austerity measures.

With regards to your second statement, where you pulled that one from or how you surmised it I don't know.

I referenced the civil rights movements because you are opposed to civil disobedience. Which part of that do you find so hard to understand?

As I said that is regrettable, but you should have common sense to be nowhere near the police with batons out when they're containing crowds.

You're a heartless pig, you know that right? The man in question was going home from work. Him and many others who weren't with the PEACEFUL protesters were stuck in the Kettle. What about their civil rights?

 

[Silva]

For what its worth this high court ruling on that kettling case won't change anything.

Further to that, Brian makes alot of good points, even if his views appear a bit extreme.

The country is becoming a soft touch. The people that oppose kettling so whole heartedly should be the first to suggest more suitable tactics to the Police when dealing with sporadic violence in large crowd situations.

It is also okay going on about protesters getting hurt, but how about all the cops and horses that were badly injured/retired due to the thuggish behaviour that has gripped the capital. Both deserve as much press as the other.

If the protesters had done what the police had in this case everyone would be quite rightly condemning them for it. Let's not have double standards here.

How would you like it if you were going around doing your job and you were surrounded by people in body armour who beat the shit out you of at any attempt to leave?

I agree with much of that, the fact of the matter is, kettling is the least divisive, most low-key, least resentful and safest way to deal with such situations. There are no alternatives but to get physical whether it be with horses, tear gas or water cannons. That essentially is the rationale of my support for such measures.

When you say "such situations" do you mean any type of protest ever known to man? Or just the ones you don't agree with?

I think that is the key part of all this really, there is really no other option. When you place kettling on a scale with what the rest of the world do in such situations, you really can see how less aggressive British policing tactics are.

Just because we're not as bad as some other countries doesn't mean we're good. In this particular case, someone who wasn't even a protester, a man going to work, was murdered by the police. I think we all remember that video, he was asking if he could leave, trying to explain his situation and we all know the rest. I know you like to defend all things police TR but somehow I doubt you can condone that.

 

[TheReligion]

Silva, if I like to defend all things Police, then you like to defend things in the eye of protesters. Works both ways.

The problem with kettling is that people who are peaceful or not even part of a violent protest can become caught in the middle of it. The issue is it is near impossible to distinguish this as those who decided to cause trouble frequently do it off the proposed and set route, which may I also add is an offence in itself once one has been pre-arranged.

No one is condoning the instance you are speaking of but it was inevitable something was going to give when you see the sheer amount of violence that has taken place in the capital and surrounding areas recently. My point is there have been some rather severe casualties on both sides of the fence.

 

[Silva]

Silva, if I like to defend all things Police, then you like to defend things in the eye of protesters. Works both ways.

Peaceful protests, I defend all peaceful protests. Weather or not they disobey certain laws.

The problem with kettling is that people who are peaceful or not even part of a violent protest can become caught in the middle of it. The issue is it is near impossible to distinguish this as those who decided to cause trouble frequently do it off the proposed and set route, which may I also add is an offence in itself once one has been pre-arranged.

The problem we have with kettling is that more often than not, it is used when only a minority are violent. For the vast majority of people often caught up in them, they did nothing to deserve it.

No one is condoning the instance you are speaking of but it was inevitable something was going to give when you see the sheer amount of violence that has taken place in the capital and surrounding areas recently. My point is there have been some rather severe casualties on both sides of the fence.

Brian does condone it and by the sounds of it so do you if you think it was so inevitable. Even though the courts disagree with you.

 

[Team Brian GB]

I referenced the civil rights movements because you are opposed to civil disobedience. Which part of that do you find so hard to understand?

I find it hard hard to understand that I oppose civil disobedience, something I have never said that I do.

 

[TheReligion]

Brian does condone it and by the sounds of it so do you if you think it was so inevitable. Even though the courts disagree with you.

No one condones it, but it certainly was not murder, whichever way you dress it up

 

[Silva]

I find it hard hard to understand that I oppose civil disobedience, something I have never said that I do.

Why do you disagree with the courts ruling then? Why do you also oppose to UK Uncut using civil disobedience? Unless Mike was right, any protest that disagrees with your ideals is automatically wrong and should be nipped in the bud...

No one condones it, but it certainly was not murder, whichever way you dress it up

"but it was inevitable" <-- that's what you said. The protesters, in this case, weren't being violent, there was no imminent threat of violence. The Police did not use Kettling as a last resort in this case, and it rarely does keep it as a last resort.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Mike and you are idiots, any groups who have a history of violence who gather in the heart of London who declare they want to destroy capitalism need to be kept on an extremely tight leash.

Do the climate change protesters involved in the climate camp movement have a history of violence?

I'm an idiot for agreeing with the British High Court ruling? Fair enough Brian.

I find it hard hard to understand that I oppose civil disobedience, something I have never said that I do.

Here:

As I said before, your civil liberties only extend as far as not violating somebody elses.

Civil disobedience inevitably involves sit-in, occupations and other forms of peaceful protest.

 

[Frosty]

For what its worth this high court ruling on that kettling case won't change anything.

Brian appears to disagree with you on this.

 

[TheReligion]

"but it was inevitable" <-- that's what you said. The protesters, in this case, weren't being violent, there was no imminent threat of violence. The Police did not use Kettling as a last resort in this case, and it rarely does keep it as a last resort.

You can be as dramatic as you want but it certainly wasn't murder.

 

[sammsky1]

Mike and you are idiots, any groups who have a history of violence who gather in the heart of London who declare they want to destroy capitalism need to be kept on an extremely tight leash. Personally I think the police should have cleared the street much sooner, nobody should be able to close an integral thoroughfare ad hoc for their own beliefs.

As I said before, your civil liberties only extend as far as not violating somebody elses.

One of the developments I do like is that face coverings will not be allowed at demonstrations.

Firstly, not that he needs this comment but though Mike is many things, an idiot he is clearly not.

You want to listen to yourself .... you sound like one of those old skool yanks during Reagans time in the middle of the Cold War. Communism: Bad, bad bad. Its abit like Islam and terrorism, say the two words side by side for long enough and people without brains will begin to think the two are mutually inclusive.

In the UK, I have every right to state that capitalism is bad and to seek to destroy it. Its called freedom of speech. I don't happen to believe that and work in the heart of a capitalist economy as a marketing man but I will respect any person who believes so and will defend his right to state so. The police's job is not to defend capitalism. Its to defend the general public from criminality. In this instance, the police killed, YES KILLED, a completely innocent man.

Brian, you bang on all day about how great you think this country is, how democracy, freedom and rights should be defended at all costs. You dont mean that at all. Im not at all a 'letfty' but its because of views like yours that I will forever be suspicious of the right wing tories that we have in the UK. They are driven purely through self greed and keeping up with the Jones. This country just decided to invade another sovereign country (Libya) because its leader and police were killing its own people. Should Libya invade Britain and stop our Government and police from killing our own citizens.

I've been out of the country a while and so kept out of this thread as I don't know enough of the facts but when i read your comments, well its clear they are driven by rudimentary right wing self interested ideology. There is no empathy, logic or humanity in anything you say. You sound like a robot, freshly ejected from tory HQ wound up to trumpet the party line. Just think before you type and process that information through your heart, yes your heart before you come to a view. It will do you the world of good.

I'll end where I started, Mike is many things and he and I have had great debates with differing views on many an occasion. An idiot he is certainly not. I'd suggest you look more close to home if you want to find idiotic views.

 

[Silva]

You can be as dramatic as you want but it certainly wasn't murder.

Man slaughter then. And I wasn't being dramatic, the police is just far to eager to implement Kettling tactics whenever there is a protest. The only time I see the police managing protests they way I would like them too is when they don't have the numbers to Kettle, which is a shame.

 

[Red-Indian]

I'm coming very late to the thread but Brian is really extreme isn't he?

He would've been standing beside the tanks in Tahrir square encouraging them to roll in because 'idiots' were gathering were gathering and disrupting traffic in a public place without the appropriate permissions and licenses.

 

[Team Brian GB]

I'm coming very late to the thread but Brian is really extreme isn't he?

He would've been standing beside the tanks in Tahrir square encouraging them to roll in because 'idiots' were gathering were gathering and disrupting traffic in a public place without the appropriate permissions and licenses.

The Egyptians are sovereign, what they do is up to them.

 

[Excal]

The Egyptians are sovereign, what they do is up to them.

 

[Team Brian GB]

I am, it is up to the authorities and people of Egypt as to what goes on in their country.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

What Red-Indian was saying was a hypothetical, if you were Egyptian Brian then you'd have been against the protests on the same grounds as you've been arguing in this thread.

 

[Team Brian GB]

What Red-Indian was saying was a hypothetical, if you were Egyptian Brian then you'd have been against the protests on the same grounds as you've been arguing in this thread.

The United Kingdom is a representative democracy, adheres to the rule of law and has an independent judiciary - you cannot compare protesting between the two countries.

 

[noodlehair]

Firstly, not that he needs this comment but though Mike is many things, an idiot he is clearly not.

You want to listen to yourself .... you sound like one of those old skool yanks during Reagans time in the middle of the Cold War. Communism: Bad, bad bad. Its abit like Islam and terrorism, say the two words side by side for long enough and people without brains will begin to think the two are mutually inclusive.

In the UK, I have every right to state that capitalism is bad and to seek to destroy it. Its called freedom of speech. I don't happen to believe that and work in the heart of a capitalist economy as a marketing man but I will respect any person who believes so and will defend his right to state so. The police's job is not to defend capitalism. Its to defend the general public from criminality. In this instance, the police killed, YES KILLED, a completely innocent man.

Brian, you bang on all day about how great you think this country is, how democracy, freedom and rights should be defended at all costs. You dont mean that at all. Im not at all a 'letfty' but its because of views like yours that I will forever be suspicious of the right wing tories that we have in the UK. They are driven purely through self greed and keeping up with the Jones. This country just decided to invade another sovereign country (Libya) because its leader and police were killing its own people. Should Libya invade Britain and stop our Government and police from killing our own citizens.

I've been out of the country a while and so kept out of this thread as I don't know enough of the facts but when i read your comments, well its clear they are driven by rudimentary right wing self interested ideology. There is no empathy, logic or humanity in anything you say. You sound like a robot, freshly ejected from tory HQ wound up to trumpet the party line. Just think before you type and process that information through your heart, yes your heart before you come to a view. It will do you the world of good.

I'll end where I started, Mike is many things and he and I have had great debates with differing views on many an occasion. An idiot he is certainly not. I'd suggest you look more close to home if you want to find idiotic views.

Hehe

This post is great. Brian's views on this forum have actually pushed me firmly to the left from the previous position of "don't really give a feck", because they come across as so self servingly ignorant and frankly at times dangerous.

He's made me highly suspicious and sceptical of the right wing way of thinking. Paz as well with his borderline insane right wing twitter rants.

 

[TheReligion]

Man slaughter then. And I wasn't being dramatic, the police is just far to eager to implement Kettling tactics whenever there is a protest. The only time I see the police managing protests they way I would like them too is when they don't have the numbers to Kettle, which is a shame.

Yes, Manslaughter at the very most and I can see why that never got anywhere when you look at the incident properly.

A lot of rubbish is written about Tomlinson, branding the Police murderers and such, when in reality, one cop got a bit fiesty and pushed the bloke who subsequently fell over. There was no intention to kill the fella, nor could anyone foresee that he would later suffer a heart attack.

If he had fell and due to the force of the push smashed his head in on the floor and died it would be a different matter.

Again though, the country likes to be over dramatic, labeling the whole Met Police Service, or Police in general, as murderers, without even knowing the definition of such.

 

[Mockney]

sammerang.

 

[TheReligion]

sammerang.

Whats that?

 

[Mockney]

A Bangerang inflicted by a sammsky. You see, Bangerang is such a wonderfully malleable and transgressive word (and I've no idea if transgressive is even a word, let alone an appropriate one, unlike Bangerang, which is always appropriate) that it can be retro-fitted and suffixed to almost any word in any situation, to give the desired affect with significantly more gusto....and guile (I just like the word guile)

For example, my phone just rang. Phonerang!

 

[Silva]

Yes, Manslaughter at the very most and I can see why that never got anywhere when you look at the incident properly.

A lot of rubbish is written about Tomlinson, branding the Police murderers and such, when in reality, one cop got a bit fiesty and pushed the bloke who subsequently fell over. There was no intention to kill the fella, nor could anyone foresee that he would later suffer a heart attack.

If he had fell and due to the force of the push smashed his head in on the floor and died it would be a different matter.

Again though, the country likes to be over dramatic, labeling the whole Met Police Service, or Police in general, as murderers, without even knowing the definition of such.

Tomlinson died within minutes of that push. If you remember the coverage at the time, nothing would have been done against the police if the media hadn't pointed this out.

Protesters already get a lot of stick, there were hundred of thousands of people peacefully protesting in London last month, the media concentrated on a few hundred.

And FYI, I don't have anything against the police in general. I think the work you do patrolling out streets is fantastic. But the way protests are treated is nothing short of appalling. Riot police, for one, probably don't know the meaning of the word peaceful. The people who give orders to the police only seem to be capable of Kettling. It's an appalling tactic that only escalates things.

 

[Silva]

The United Kingdom is a representative democracy, adheres to the rule of law and has an independent judiciary - you cannot compare protesting between the two countries.

I wouldn't go as far as to say representative.

 

[TheReligion]

Tomlinson died within minutes of that push. If you remember the coverage at the time, nothing would have been done against the police if the media hadn't pointed this out.

Protesters already get a lot of stick, there were hundred of thousands of people peacefully protesting in London last month, the media concentrated on a few hundred.

And FYI, I don't have anything against the police in general. I think the work you do patrolling out streets is fantastic. But the way protests are treated is nothing short of appalling. Riot police, for one, probably don't know the meaning of the word peaceful. The people who give orders to the police only seem to be capable of Kettling. It's an appalling tactic that only escalates things.

It is nice that the work we do is appreciated, so thanks for the kind words.

Contrary to popular opinion though, and I don't mean this in a patronising way, "riot police" are not a special breed, they are just normal cops, like me, who have undergone intensive training in public order techniques and fitness.

There are specialist units within each force, such as the Met's Territorial Support Group, and Greater Manchester Police's Tactical Aid Unit, who specialist in dealing with public order amongst other things, but alot of the cops you are slating are the ones who will be working their arses off every single day on the streets and have been called in on their days off to try and maintain order during the protests.

 

[Excal]

A Bangerang inflicted by a sammsky. You see, Bangerang is such a wonderfully malleable and transgressive word (and I've no idea if transgressive is even a word, let alone an appropriate one, unlike Bangerang, which is always appropriate) that it can be retro-fitted and suffixed to almost any word in any situation, to give the desired affect with significantly more gusto....and guile (I just like the word guile)

An effect somewhat lessened by the constant need to explain what the feck you're talking about to non-crazy people.

 

[Mockney]

I'm not crazy, I'm crazerang.

 

[Silva]

It is nice that the work we do is appreciated, so thanks for the kind words.

Contrary to popular opinion though, and I don't mean this in a patronising way, "riot police" are not a special breed, they are just normal cops, like me, who have undergone intensive training in public order techniques and fitness.

There are specialist units within each force, such as the Met's Territorial Support Group, and Greater Manchester Police's Tactical Aid Unit, who specialist in dealing with public order amongst other things, but alot of the cops you are slating are the ones who will be working their arses off every single day on the streets and have been called in on their days off to try and maintain order during the protests.

That explains why they're angry always then. But I stand by my point, Kettling has and will always make things worse. The police using such tactics, especially when the protesters are being peaceful is only asking for trouble. The only time Kettling is justified is when protesters are harming civilians.

 

[Team Brian GB]

Firstly, not that he needs this comment but though Mike is many things, an idiot he is clearly not.

You want to listen to yourself .... you sound like one of those old skool yanks during Reagans time in the middle of the Cold War. Communism: Bad, bad bad. Its abit like Islam and terrorism, say the two words side by side for long enough and people without brains will begin to think the two are mutually inclusive.

In the UK, I have every right to state that capitalism is bad and to seek to destroy it. Its called freedom of speech. I don't happen to believe that and work in the heart of a capitalist economy as a marketing man but I will respect any person who believes so and will defend his right to state so. The police's job is not to defend capitalism. Its to defend the general public from criminality. In this instance, the police killed, YES KILLED, a completely innocent man.

You have the right to say it is bad, you have the right to seek its destruction through the ballot box, but environmentalists with a history of violence do not have a right to cause disruption in the Square Mile, as you say it is the duty of the police to protect people from criminality, with all of the vairables taken into account, containing them was a wise decision on their part.

With regard to Ian Tomlinson, as I said last night, you do not brush beside riot police on an active operation when they have their batons out. On top of which the courts ruled long ago that people not involved with protests caught up in containment have no legal recourse. It wasn't an example of a police officer using deadly force, it just so happened that this man had some horrid diseases that killed him due to the blow of a baton. The question is, what do you use if not batons?

Brian, you bang on all day about how great you think this country is, how democracy, freedom and rights should be defended at all costs. You dont mean that at all. Im not at all a 'letfty' but its because of views like yours that I will forever be suspicious of the right wing tories that we have in the UK. They are driven purely through self greed and keeping up with the Jones. This country just decided to invade another sovereign country (Libya) because its leader and police were killing its own people. Should Libya invade Britain and stop our Government and police from killing our own citizens.

This is the most pathetic part of your post, very few people believe that civil liberties should be limitless and I am not one of them. Civil liberty as I have said countless times over the last day do not extend beyond another persons civil liberties and they do not allow for the breaking of the law. The law was broken in this case and therefore they lose their legitimacy to protest in such a manner.

To equate us to Libya is beneath you, obviously you cannot tell the difference between an accidental death due to underlying factors and potential genocide. Tell me, how exactly was the Government involved in the death of Ian Tomlinson as it seems to be a bit of a stretch to me to suggest so. We go out of our way not to be physical, twenty miles across the Channel they're not so easy, it is not like we talking about a despotic state here, as much as the French can annoy you.

I've been out of the country a while and so kept out of this thread as I don't know enough of the facts but when i read your comments, well its clear they are driven by rudimentary right wing self interested ideology. There is no empathy, logic or humanity in anything you say. You sound like a robot, freshly ejected from tory HQ wound up to trumpet the party line. Just think before you type and process that information through your heart, yes your heart before you come to a view. It will do you the world of good.

People don't get to break the law because they have feelings, nobody gets to break the law at all, society does not function of the law is not adhered to. We are developed enough democratically not to require illegal violence or civil disobedience to bring about political change. That is beneath us as a country but all the people in the last couple of years who have got violent, smashed shop windows across the country, staged sit-ins in shops and MPs offices obviously do not think so and neither do the people who support them.

I am sicked and tired of having to watch pictures of cities up and down the land being attacked by thugs because their choice of political party that would enact their policies didn't get elected, while the police are forced to stand by because so many people in this country wouldn't tolerate them doing their jobs. In November of last year I watched some idiots smash their way into the Treasury, for over ten minutes they were trying to break through the windows and no police stopped them. If that was any other G8 capital the police would have shot them.

To people who say these instances are unrelated that isn't true, so severe was the criticism of the police in 2009 that they couldn't act appropriately in 2010 and a few weeks ago. There was a very large school of thought, many posters here involved, who thought the police even then were too heavy handed.

I'll end where I started, Mike is many things and he and I have had great debates with differing views on many an occasion. An idiot he is certainly not. I'd suggest you look more close to home if you want to find idiotic views.

I have had many a debate with him on many an issue, he certainly knows how to push my buttons on occasion though calling him an idiot was somewhat strong - I normally reserve such commentary for Mr Storey.