The Impossible Draft

Enigma_87

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@idmanager

as @Šjor Bepo pointed out it's not a case of 2vs1 in that game, as Zanetti more often than not will provide cover to the CM. Van Hanegem is excellent in the defensive phase to cover for Facchetti going up the pitch, I think I've described the mechanics in that game and that he'd cover the side when Facchetti crosses the halfway line.

Otherwise I agree that he's a tad "overrated" in grand scheme of things but still one of the best flank players not only of his generation but all time. He had it all in terms of athleticism - being tall and also very fast so normally you would back him to man the whole flank. Of course against a great wing pair he still might struggle in some situations as even the best didn't have the greatest of games here and there.

@Physiocrat it was a mighty fine side mate and I agree that the scoreline flattered. From experience Rui Costa and Rivaldo doesn't usually get the appreciation they deserve around here and from memory I think my major selling point that game was Carlos Alberto and Jairzinho against Candela, otherwise it's advantage here and there for one side and the other depending on the mechanics and where the ball is. Zanetti was a major asset in that role.
 

Physiocrat

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@Physiocrat it was a mighty fine side mate and I agree that the scoreline flattered. From experience Rui Costa and Rivaldo doesn't usually get the appreciation they deserve around here and from memory I think my major selling point that game was Carlos Alberto and Jairzinho against Candela, otherwise it's advantage here and there for one side and the other depending on the mechanics and where the ball is. Zanetti was a major asset in that role.
Yeah, the Carlos Alberto and Jairzinho was your major selling point. It was a good match thread despite the result. Hopefully I will have time for drafting some time soon to create another unorthodox team.
 

Gio

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I love that Mozer pick @Gio . I picked him in the Americas Draft and he looked the definition of a hidden gem. Great technique, a brilliant athlete, and seems to have been very highly regarded wherever he played.
Aye. Feels like his reputation isn't quite as established as it should be due to reaching two European Cup finals (but winning neither), starting his international career just after 1982 (imagine him shutting the back door to that team) and missing Mexico '86 through injury. Certainly well respected at Benfica and Marseille and any footage I've watched has shown as nothing less than top drawer. Needless to say I'll be using your GIFs and write-ups to their fullest extent for the next game.
 
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R1 - Final Teams

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Final Teams - R1

Enigma: (1) Zico (2) Batistuta (3) Nedvěd (4) D. Santos (5) A. Shesternyov (6) J. Santamaria (7) Rummenigge (8) D. Mackay (9) Benarrivo (10) Pluskal (11) P. Jennings (12) A. Sanchez

P-Nut0712: (1) F. Puskas (2) Yashin (3) J. Tigana (4) J. Charles (5) B. Bremner (6) J. Barnes (7) M. Ramos (8) D. Beckham (9) L. Blanc (10) C. Azpiliceuta (11) R. Pavoni (12) T. Cerezo

Gio: (1) P. R. Falcão (2) Z. Zidane (3) Z. Czibor (4) L. Kubala (5) A. Brehme (6) N. Gonçalves (7) D. Law (8) H. P. Briegel (9) A. Erico (10) A. Roma (11) M. Khurtsilava (12) R. Falcao (13) C. Mozer

Charly: (1) D. Džajić (2) S. Kocsis (3) Nesta (4) W. van Hanegem (5) A. Demyanenko (6). R. Dasayev (7) T. Silva (8). Jorginho (9) O. Sivori (10) N. Rossi (11) Michel (12) E. Streltsov

Pat Mustard: (1) Romario (2) J. Bozsik (3) Facchetti (4) D. Edwards (5) D. Godin (6) Bezsonov (7) Leonidas (8) Chilavert (9) W. Schulz (10) R. Bonhof (11) G. Rivera (12) Benbarek (13) Naybet

Brwned: (1) B. Moore (2) G. Meazza (3) M. Coluna (4) I. Netto (5) M. Amoros (6) Julinho (7) V. Mazzola (8) L. Pereira (9) E. Hapgood (10) G. Weah (11) A. Carbajal (12) N. Kanté (13) C. Cueto (14). C. B. Kun

2mufc0: (1) G. Scirea (2) R. Gullit (3) O. Varela (4) L. Junior (5) G. Nordahl (6) Zizinho (7) R. Rensenbrink (8) R. Ferri (9) O. Bergmark (10) H. Gatti (11) J. S. Veron (12) A. Sandro

MJJ: (1) R. Baggio (2) G. Lato (3) N. Hidegkuti (4) S. Marzolini (5) E. Ocwirk (6) L. Monti (7) C. Valderrama (8) V. Vasovic (9) J. Stam (10) J. L. Andrade (11). L. Ferreira (12) J. Valdivieso

Tuppet: (1) D. Passarella (2) J. Masopust (3) O. Blokhin (4) L. Riva (5) Schnellinger (6) T. Finney (7) Ronaldinho (8) S. Campbell (9) L. Mazurkiewicz (10) G. Hanappi (11) M. Salah (12) R. Sensini (13) J. Pizarro

Prath92: (1) B. Robson (2) V. Voronin (3) D. Bergkamp (4) J. Zanetti (5) O. Ruggeri (6) M. Bossis (7) J. Johnstone (8) J. Nasazzi (9) D. De Gea (10) E. Hazard (11) K. Toure

Ecstatic: (1) U. Seeler (2) N. Santos (3) L. Figo (4) Neymar (5) G. Bergomi (6) D. McGrain (7) R. Perfumo (8) Y. Rudakov (9) G. Hagi (10) U. Stielike (11) J. Joya (12) E. Lazzatti

Indnyc: (1) L. Thuram (2) R. Krol (3) D. Da Guia 4) A. Pedernera (5) J. Fontaine (6) E. Cantona (7) F. Loustau (8) Zito (9) G. Souness (10) F. Bene (11) R. Higuíta (12) J. Ceulemans (13) A. Valencia (14) Son Heung Min

Sjor / Jim Beam: (1) B. Charlton (2) H. Chumpitaz (3) H. Stoichkov (4) P. Elkjaer (5) B. Schuster (6) B. Vogts (7) A. Carrizo (8) F. Luis (9) M. Senna (10) T. Adams (11) O. Corbatta (12) S. Mané (13) Peyroteo (14) O.A. Rahman

Idmanager: (1) F. Gento (2) S. Matthews (3) M. Tresor (4) K.H. Forster (5) E. Davids (6) T. Cubillas (7) B. Zebec (8) V. R. Andrade (9) A. Spencer (10) Gerson (11) L. Conejo (12) J. Smistik

Skizzo: (1) Sócrates (2) P. McGrath (3) M. Sammer (4) C. A. Torres (5) R. van Nistelrooy (6) J. M. Moreno (7) A. Morton (8) A. Vidal (9) V. Beara (10) A. Rattin (11) V. Rats (12) K. De Bruyne

Moby: (1) R. Keane (2) J. Neeskens (3) Rivellino (4) Jairzinho (5) J. Bican (6) E. Francescoli (7) J. A. Camacho (8) G. Popescu (9) B. Wright (10) L. Eyzaguirre (11) S. Livingstone (12) A. Sastre
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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List Randomizer
There were 16 items in your list. Here they are in random order:

  1. Enigma
  2. P-Nut0712
  3. Skizzo
  4. Sjor / Jim Beam
  5. Idmanager
  6. Tuppet
  7. Indnyc
  8. MJJ
  9. Moby
  10. Gio
  11. Brwned
  12. Pat Mustard
  13. Ecstatic
  14. Prath92
  15. 2mufc0
  16. Charly
Timestamp: 2018-06-27 13:55:34 UTC
 
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Edgar Allan Pillow

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In Write-up, please confirm which players falls under these critiera:

- 2 World Cup winners
- 2 Champions League/ European Cup winners
- 2 Copa America winners
- 2 players per decade (date of birth), with only one in 70s and 80s
- 2 per country (place of birth) (Modern only. Serbia instead of Yugoslavia)
- 6 per continent (place of birth) (All USSR breakaway countries will be considered Asia)
 

Jim Beam

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List Randomizer
There were 16 items in your list. Here they are in random order:

  1. Enigma
  2. P-Nut0712
  3. Skizzo
  4. Sjor / Jim Beam
  5. Idmanager
  6. Tuppet
  7. Indnyc
  8. MJJ
  9. Moby
  10. Gio
  11. onenil
  12. Pat Mustard
  13. Ecstatic
  14. Prath92
  15. 2mufc0
  16. Charly
Timestamp: 2018-06-27 13:55:34 UTC
Shouldn't there be Brwned instead of onenil?
 

Indnyc

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28/6 - Thu:
29/6 - Fri: MJJ vs. Indnyc
30/6 - Sat:
01/7 - Sun:
02/7 - Mon:
03/7 - Tue:
04/7 - Wed:
 

Brwned

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Nice posts @idmanager

I think you make some pursuasive points.
Agreed. I think it's probably true that fullbacks are particularly misrepresented here due to the changing nature of their role and how they're viewed. An attacking fullback nowadays is much more attacking than an attacking fullback from yesteryear, in almost all cases, but that's glossed over when it suits.

There are some exceptions and I think it's fair to say Facchetti was one of them - he could do it all. But as with any other fullback in history, he couldn't do it all at once - there's only a handful of really exceptional games where a player's been able to dominate a winger and a flank. And that almost never happened against one of the best wingers of their era, never mind their generation.

When we think of elite players we rarely think about e.g. Charlton and Beckenbauer cancelling each other out, or Maradona and Matthaus cancelling each other out. The idea that an elite player can be taken out of the game entirely is almost entirely dismissed, despite it being a reasonably common thing at the highest level.
 

idmanager

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Nice posts @idmanager

I think you make some pursuasive points.
Cheers mate.

But as with any other fullback in history, he couldn't do it all at once - there's only a handful of really exceptional games where a player's been able to dominate a winger and a flank. And that almost never happened against one of the best wingers of their era, never mind their generation.
Aye, sums it up well.
 

Enigma_87

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The ultimate number 9



Gabriel Batistuta A common sight for any Serie A viewers in the 1990s: Gabriel Batistuta celebrating

Few strikers had such an impact on one club as Gabriel Batistuta. This is the story of the Fiorentina legend, once described by Maradona as the greatest centre forward of all time


Wembley Stadium. 27th October, 1999. It’s the 75th minute of the Champions League group stage match between Arsenal and Fiorentina. The indelible purple shirts sweep forward. Gabriel Batistuta peels right to receive a pass from Jorg Heinrich. “Batigol” takes a touch with the right, and before Nigel Winterburn can finish deciding what he’s going to do next, the striker is gone. He sweeps the ball across his body with his left foot. The ball runs towards the by-line and just as it appears the angle is too narrow… CRASH! BANG! WALLOP! If it was a cartoon those are the words which would appear in bubbles around Seaman’s goal.

Gabriel Omar Batistuta was the ultimate number 9. Strong as an ox. Clever as a fox. Nimble as a ninja.

Goals were his currency, and his rate rarely fluctuated.

Born and raised in the Santa Fe region of Argentina, he came through at Newell’s Old Boys. He even did menial jobs around the club to earn enough money to make a living, before a move to Buenos Aires.
First up was River Plate in the salubrious Nunez district, but his time there did not last long, after his first encounter with Daniel Passarella, captain of the Argentina team which won the 1978 World Cup. Manager didn’t fancy player, which led to a move which would see Batigol, like one of his thunderbolts, not so much emerge but explode into the football stratosphere.

He travelled south to La Bombonera. To River’s hated rivals Boca Juniors. The 1991 Argentina ‘Clausura’ (the round-robin tournament that closed the season) would see Batigol transition from Bruce Banner to the Hulk. The powerful, athletic figure developed, the thighs grew more defined. More importantly the hair lengthened. Until retirement he would never return to his alter-ego. His goals propelled Boca to the league title and Batistuta into Argentina’s squad for that year’s Copa America. Decisive goals against Chile, Brazil and Colombia led Argentina to their first Copa success since 1959, and he finished top scorer in the process.



Batistuta netted 10 goals in 12 World Cup games.

The following year he was part of the team which won the Confederations Cup before adding a second Copa America in 1993, netting a brace in the 2-1 final defeat of Mexico.

By then, Batistuta’s life had changed significantly. Fiorentina were mesmerised by his performances at the 1991 Copa America.

“He is a warrior who will not surrender, who is hard in the fight but is fair in the soul.”


He would soon mesmerise Florence natives with blistering displays. The colour purple was made for him. Batigol hit double figures in his first season. A laudable return. However, it wasn’t his on-field actions which endeared him to the support at the Stadio Artemio Franchi. His second season saw another double figure goal haul, but the club were relegated to Serie B. He did not agitate for a move. He stayed put. He scored goals. And under the management of Claudio Ranieri he got them promoted as champions. This was no one-night stand. This was no fling. This was a love affair.

Two years after promotion La Viola tifosi made their devotion tangible, erecting a life-size bronze statue. It read: “He is a warrior who will not surrender, who is hard in the fight but is fair in the soul.” The oversized purple shirt acted as armour as he took his return to Serie A by storm, leaving a path of destruction in his path. Flummoxed goalkeepers, overawed defenders, broken minds, ruined careers were mere debris. He scored in his first eleven matches of the season, breaking a record that had stood for three decades. He finished the season on 26.

26, 19, 12, 21 and 21 again.

His goals took Fiorentina into Europe. They also won their first piece of silverware since 1975, the Coppa Italia. The final figure should have been higher. By matchday 20 his goal return stood at 18. The 1998/1999 Scudetto (Serie A title) should have been Fiorentina’s first since 1969. On the 14th of February 1999 they sat level at the top of the league. Then Batistuta’s hamstring was torn. He missed six games, scored only three goals in the eight games he did play as Fiorentina finished third, 14 points behind AC Milan.

There was some consolation in qualifying for the Champions League. That goal – Seaman’s nightmare – sealed La Viola’s qualification to the second group stage of the Champions League, as it was formatted back then. It brought about another visit to England. To Old Trafford. Donning a purple headband to accompany the evocative Toyota-sponsored Fila top, Batigol found space behind the Manchester United midfield. “I’ve always considered Florence as my girlfriend. I don’t have to explain my love for this city.” Similar to his assault of Winterburn, he controlled with his right foot before spinning away from the not inconsiderable frame of Jaap Stam with a touch of his left boot. Batigol pulled back the lever. And released. Mark Bosnich looked like a drunk trying to catch a frisbee in the dark. (:lol:)The ball took on a life of its own. Behind the goals hands went onto heads. Others cowered. It would be one of Batistuta’s last defining moments in purple. His journey with Fiorentina was nearing an end.

Gincarlo Rinaldo, Italian football author and Fiorentina fan, writes:


In the Fiorentina all-time hall of fame there are only a handful of players who stand comparison with Gabriel Omar Batistuta. He stayed at the club when they fell into Serie B and resisted many overtures to move to bigger sides until the Viola’s financial collapse made his departure inevitable. Over a glorious decade or so he delivered goals galore, but his significance in Florence is about more than simply those strikes. His commitment, endeavour, dedication and ferocious competitive streak made him a darling of fans even on days when he did not find the net. He is still much beloved to this day and, if you close your eyes, I swear you can still hear the echoes of the chant of “Bati-Bati-Bati-Batigol!” around the Stadio Artemio Franchi.”
The striker always said he was going to retire at 30. But aged 31 Roma signed the forward for £27.5 million. He became the most expensive over-30-year-old. A record he still holds. It was the move that would finally deliver the trophy he sought. The Scudetto. With 20 goals Batigol became a legend in Rome as he fired I Giallorossi to their third, and last, Serie A title. But even while he was with the Romans, his love for Fiorentina remained. A goal against Fiorentina brought emotion. But not raw energy. Tears instead. The Serie A title was the high point. An ineffectual loan spell at Inter Milan followed, before he wound his career down in Qatar.



His swansong in the Gulf did see the return of his goal currency, the rate peaking one more time before retirement. For a generation of British football fans Batigol is a symbol of Serie A. In Florence he is the symbol. He is Fiorentina. Inducted into the club’s hall of fame in 2014, drying his tears with a club shirt, he said: “I’ve always considered Florence as my girlfriend. I don’t have to explain my love for this city.” In retirement, the effects of 17 years of football took their toll, and at one point he even pleaded with doctors to amputate his legs. He would wake up in the early hours of the morning and wet the bed because the thought of crawling to the bathroom in pain was too much for him.


Batistuta had kept his distance from the sport until recently, pursuing his passion for horses and polo instead. He admitted disappointment at seeing Lionel Messi break his record of 56 goals (in 78 games) for the Argentine national side. The Barca maestro, however, will unlikely top Batigol’s ten goals in 12 World Cup games. His legacy will live on.


As Greg Balkowski wrote in an article about Alan Shearer, there was a breed of striker who hit the ball as if they wanted to kill it. Batigol was that. And more. He was an agile, evasive and inventive forward. He’d drop deep, link play, run in behind. Bully, harass, out-smart. There is a reason Diego Maradona once said he was the best centre forward of all time. He passed it into the net, powered headers, dinked, chipped and clipped it past hapless custodians. And of course, from time to time, he simply smashed it.


A great piece on Batigol. Well worth the read. Tagging @Pat_Mustard as I know he's a fan :drool:
 

Ecstatic

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We should have more Korean players in these drafts.

I can play whenever @Ecstatic
Good luck!

I can't be very active as usual in the next days but next week could be more busy so can we start tomorrow evening (Manchester time)?

More contemporary players than usual so interesting game whatever the outcome
 

Ecstatic

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Interesting views regarding the full backs.

In short, I think the 3-5-2 is sometimes overrated in these drafts, generally presented as the perfect tactical system: 5 defenders, 3 central midfielders, 2 wingers* and 2 scorers.

After all, not a coincidence that the 3-5-2 isn't the most popular tactical system these days.

* = FB
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Facchetti is seen like superman on here, how often we hear how he will 'run the flank' on his own when in real life football it doesn't work that away, esp against a wing combo like Overmars-Zanetti.
He is a player capable of running the flank...however that is subject to the tactical situation ofc.

Back to the original idea, as i said we overrated some and underrate the others. You can see it in the previous draft with Nilton Santos as well. Nobody doubts the overall quality of the guy and he deserved his GOAT status but he has a reputation of a wingback and was tried to be sold as a wingback yet in a footage we were provided he barely moved up and was playing in a balanced fullback role which tbf was probably pretty offensive back in the day but still, IMO we should treat him like a balanced fullback and give the credit to a more modern ones for actually dominating the whole flank.
Of most old school FB's, I'd say Nilton and Facchetti are the closest to modern fullbacks. As a balanced fullback, I'd put them on same "top" caliber as Zanetti or Brehme. Again, I doubt even Zanetti will donimate the flank facing Garrincha!
 

Šjor Bepo

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Of most old school FB's, I'd say Nilton and Facchetti are the closest to modern fullbacks. As a balanced fullback, I'd put them on same "top" caliber as Zanetti or Brehme. Again, I doubt even Zanetti will donimate the flank facing Garrincha!
Watched more Facchetti and tbh i have zero issues with him as a player dominating the whole flank as i saw him did it. Maybe not to extent of Marcelo or Cafu but certainly a lot more then Nilton from little i saw of him and him id classify as a balanced fullback, similar type as Lahm for example.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Watched more Facchetti and tbh i have zero issues with him as a player dominating the whole flank as i saw him did it. Maybe not to extent of Marcelo or Cafu but certainly a lot more then Nilton from little i saw of him and him id classify as a balanced fullback, similar type as Lahm for example.
Marcelo should be nowhere near this conversation :nono:

I'd rate Cafu as the Top balanced GOAT fullback of all time across either flank.
 

Šjor Bepo

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Marcelo should be nowhere near this conversation :nono:

I'd rate Cafu as the Top balanced GOAT fullback of all time across either flank.
im talking about playing styles and contributions in specific segments not about quality.
 

Enigma_87

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Let's go Tuesday then mate
Sound.


29/6 - Fri: MJJ vs. Indnyc
30/6 - Sat:
01/7 - Sun:
02/7 - Mon:
03/7 - Tue: Enigma vs P-Nut
04/7 - Wed:


Interesting views regarding the full backs.

In short, I think the 3-5-2 is sometimes overrated in these drafts, generally presented as the perfect tactical system: 5 defenders, 3 central midfielders, 2 wingers* and 2 scorers.

After all, not a coincidence that the 3-5-2 isn't the most popular tactical system these days.

* = FB
It's very flexible system mate. The modern implementation - 3-4-3 is really close to 5-3-2(or 3-5-2) and many managers adopted it. The full backs/wing backs are really important even today, especially considering the era is dominated by wide forwards, rather than out and out wingers. Usually the full backs act as a wingers and are important for the attacking phase, whilst two holders in the middle help protect the flanks when the full backs move vertically.

3-5-2/5-3-2 is great in terms of all time drafts as it frees players like Cafu, Carlos, Facchetti, Zanetti, etc of big part of their defensive duties and allow the GOAT's to be fielded in the inside right/left channels as they are usually more centrally focused.
 

prath92

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We should have more Korean players in these drafts.



Good luck!

I can't be very active as usual in the next days but next week could be more busy so can we start tomorrow evening (Manchester time)?

More contemporary players than usual so interesting game whatever the outcome
Sure
 

Jim Beam

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29/6 - Fri: MJJ vs. Indnyc
30/6 - Sat:
01/7 - Sun:
02/7 - Mon:
03/7 - Tue: Enigma vs P-Nut; Skizzo vs Sjor Bepo/Jim Beam
04/7 - Wed:
 

Šjor Bepo

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Dont even know how i ended up watching this but what a fecking performance by Becks! Talk about dominating the game and taking things into your own hand. Amazing really, specially considering the importance of the game. God i love him, absolute legend of the game, immense footballer.
 

P-Nut

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Dont even know how i ended up watching this but what a fecking performance by Becks! Talk about dominating the game and taking things into your own hand. Amazing really, specially considering the importance of the game. God i love him, absolute legend of the game, immense footballer.
Love you to mate