The Irish Women's Team Celebration Discussion.

[moses]

The British army had a higher civilian kill percentage during the troubles than the PIRA did. The PIRA had the lowest percentage of the parties involved.

It's deemed unacceptable to sing up the 'ra in a song yet every year the British public are encouraged to wear poppies in commemoration of the soldiers who were in NI. Maybe the British public needs educating as well

Can we please not turn this into a body count? Its about a song, after over 25 years of peace.

 

[arnie_ni]

Come on Tommy it’s a peaceful enough thread and forum we don’t want to be dragging up every atrocity ever to happen time after time, if we want that we can just go onto Twitter an endless barrage of differing opinions on the state of N Ireland it’s really quite tiresome…

For every atrocity he drags up another poster could drag up their own. That's the kind of shit that keeps everyone stuck in the past

 

[moses]

The biggest problem I have is the sheer nerve of the twat from Sky sports news telling the Irish captain she needs to learn her history better

Yeah he's a twat, that unaminmous. It's just sad that people fall for his Fox News style outrage generating machine.

 

[BerryBerryShrew]

No. You're wrong.
You're telling people who had family members murdered that they are being sensitive about people celebrating the people that murdered them.
Of course, they aren't sympathisers but the fact they think it's ok to not only sing that but post it on social media suggests to me that our younger generation need educating.

The highlighted is the bit that shows enormous hypocrisy on the part of the British though. The IRA were a noble organisation on inception who did great things and whose name was subsequently co-opted for the nefarious purposes that you mentioned. If you were to apply the same standards unilaterally then there should be uproar over any Brit wearing the poppy- given that the British armed forces have committed atrocities along with doing some good. Not being funny, but can anyone actually point out a moral difference between someone wearing a poppy and someone singing up the ra?

 

[arnie_ni]

'

I think your argument would be legit if they sang one of the many rebel songs that are out there, this is a silly song that has a line in it, that people who don't know the song, think it's a tribute to the IRA, it isn't.People are looking to be offended these days. As you say they got caught up in the moment. It's not like we have a womens team full of republican sympathisers

A bit of whataboutery here on my part but I am genuinely curious. What was your opinion on the NI fans singing feck the pope and the ira to the simply the best tune a few years ago? Those ones from castlederg. Did you have the Same open mind or would you have been one of those calling for them to be named and shamed and to lose their job?

This is not the Michaela harte incident from this summer btw because that was a whole different level.

 

[balaks]

The British army had a higher civilian kill percentage during the troubles than the PIRA did. The PIRA had the lowest percentage of the parties involved.

It's deemed unacceptable to sing up the 'ra in a song yet every year the British public are encouraged to wear poppies in commemoration of the soldiers who were in NI. Maybe the British public needs educating as well

'kin ell

 

[Zippycup]

They don't think it's OK, it was stupid, they know it's stupid and in the cold light of day even before the event they would have known its stupid. They have unconditionally apologised almost verbatim to your post above. What do you think they need educating on? Their whole gerneration have moved on incredibly well. Thank feck. Almost an unparalleled outbreak of peace without relapse. They're doing fine. Their generation don't need a lecture because of one mistake.

I disagree. Go on social media and look under any post that's associated with that clip or the recent clip of Kyle Lafferty and it may change your mind. The place is awash with Republicism and Loyalism. The fact that Sinn Fein are the biggest party in Northern Ireland and are growing strong in southern Ireland, that the DUP are still, despite their many downfalls the biggest party for Unionists is a worrying trend. We should have moved on by now.

All the warning signs are there but we are choosing not to see it.

 

[Zippycup]

You seem to have decided that they were specifically singing about a certain iteration of something that existed for 100 years?

Bloody hell.

 

[Zippycup]

The British army had a higher civilian kill percentage during the troubles than the PIRA did. The PIRA had the lowest percentage of the parties involved.

It's deemed unacceptable to sing up the 'ra in a song yet every year the British public are encouraged to wear poppies in commemoration of the soldiers who were in NI. Maybe the British public needs educating as well

Sometimes it's best to say nothing.

 

[moses]

I disagree. Go on social media and look under any post that's associated with that clip or the recent clip of Kyle Lafferty and it may change your mind. The place is awash with Republicism and Loyalism. The fact that Sinn Fein are the biggest party in Northern Ireland and are growing strong in southern Ireland, that the DUP are still, despite their many downfalls the biggest party for Unionists is a worrying trend. We should have moved on by now.

All the warning signs are there but we are choosing not to see it.

This is you. Arguing with yourself.

I'd imagine like many others I treat idiots like idiots. Getting offended is a choice, you don't have to be offended by anything. People get angry at chants through tribalism and react in kind.
In fact, I'd argue that targeted personal abuse is far worse than any chant based on a tragic event or the death of people you never knew.

 

[Red the Bear]

You irish and British should really let this go, so dumb of supposedly first world countries to have petty quarrels like this.

 

[poleglass red]

A bit of whataboutery here on my part but I am genuinely curious. What was your opinion on the NI fans singing feck the pope and the ira to the simply the best tune a few years ago? Those ones from castlederg. Did you have the Same open mind or would you have been one of those calling for them to be named and shamed and to lose their job?

This is not the Michaela harte incident from this summer btw because that was a whole different level.

not really a comparison though is it. A bunch of women who sang a song out of naivete and who won't sing it again, compared to supporters who know exactly what they are singing. I give some context to that song in my post above as a lot of people on here don't know the meaning behind it. By the way I posted earlier I hate that song and I agree they shouldn't have sang it

 

[moses]

You irish and British should really let this go, so dumb of supposedly first world countries to have petty quarrels like this.

We don't have time to unpack the racism in that just now. Pop back another time.

 

[balaks]

not really a comparison though is it. A bunch of women who sang a song out of naivete and who won't sing it again, compared to supporters who know exactly what they are singing. I give some context to that song in my post above as a lot of people on here don't know the meaning behind it. By the way I posted earlier I hate that song and I agree they shouldn't have sang it

I agree with this - I think the girls were stupid for singing it and will have learnt their lesson but I don't honestly believe they sang it because they support the IRA. They have apologised and that is probably all there is to it. Lafferty was different because he was being sectarian which is much worse in my opinion - the guy is a total idiot. I say this as a Northern Ireland fan.

 

[arnie_ni]

not really a comparison though is it. A bunch of women who sang a song out of naivete and who won't sing it again, compared to supporters who know exactly what they are singing. I give some context to that song in my post above as a lot of people on here don't know the meaning behind it. By the way I posted earlier I hate that song and I agree they shouldn't have sang it

Fair enough, reasonable enough take.

Imo the reaction to both is over the top. As I say the Michaela harte singing was a different level and couldn't be punished enough.

 

[Red the Bear]

We don't have time to unpack the racism in that just now. Pop back another time.

I'm assuming you're being sarcastic.

 

[golden_blunder]

But sadly while not saying it was OK, there were 3 sides and all were as fecking vile as each other so let's not pretend otherwise here, be the pira, loyalists and the brit army, as 1000s of Catholics from the north can easily say that about the protection given by the protestant community to the shankill butchers for over 10 years, or to the family of the 7 yr old boy shot dead in his bed by the tough guys of the SAS in Antrim, or the family of the 11-year-old schoolgirl shot in the back and killed a week before bloody Sunday by the same scum who carried out bloody Sunday in Derry, also the biggest dealers in the North are the UDA nothing said, LVF, UVF never gave up their guns and still killing people and nothing said about that either.

I also like to say I find it fecking laughable that the DUP are writing to UEFA demanding this and that and to FAI demanding they withhold their money while saying feck all about laffery and had to be forced into a statement last year when the UVF forced a driver to drive a hoax bomb to where Coveney was when in Belfast or the non-stop death threat and painting Leo's home address all over Protestant areas.

(In response to the black bit) Sadly, as seen from both sides of the divide this year alone at the bonfires, that's not looking very likely, as there always seems to be someone on both sides not prepare to do that sadly no matter how much we would all like to see it, but sadly way too much bloodshed spilled on both sides for it to be, as don't forget the 10s of thousands of Northern Catholics who see us in the 26 as sell out scum, due to doing jack over partition in their eyes, or during the burning and killing of Catholics out of their homes which saw the rise of the provos in 67/68 when they walked away from the Dublin IRA leadership and set up the Provos.

Look they sang it stupidly without malice in my eyes, so as author and historian, Tim Pat Coogan once say about the 800 years of murder by the crown forces and loyalists, Ireland should forget the history and move on, because the British can never.

Turning this into something there’s no need for

 

[moses]

I'm assuming you're being sarcastic.

It reads like a line Sir Humphrey would deliver in Yes Minister. List a few non first world countries there just to clarify your point. You are right in that people need to move on but that doesn't need socio economic qualification..

 

[moses]

Turning this into something there’s no need for

So depressing.

 

[golden_blunder]

So depressing.

It’s certainly bringing a few questionable attitudes out. Depressing, I thought we’d moved on from this nonsense

 

[Red the Bear]

It reads like a line Sir Humphrey wouod deliver in Yes Minister. List a few non first world countries there just to clarify your point. You are right in that people need to move on but that doesn't need socio economic qualification..

Not everything is based on race you know...

These 2 countries live in absolute affluence compared to most of the living population and im pretty sure their time and energy will be better spent than arguing about things that may or may not have happened 20+ years ago when the majority of the population isn't even majorly affected by it.

I concede that I'm neither Irish nor British so have no connections to this conflict, no dog in this fight but giving my 2 cents it seems incredibly counter-intuitive to obsess over such things from an outsiders point of view.

But again I have no right to tell anyone involved what to do so do as you please.

 

[moses]

Not everything is based on race you know...

These 2 countries live in absolute affluence compared to most of the living population and im pretty sure their time and energy will be better spent than arguing about things that may or may not have happened 20+ years ago when the majority of the population isn't even majorly affected by it.

I concede that I'm neither Irish nor British so have no connections to this conflict, no dog in this fight but giving my 2 cents it seems incredibly counter-intuitive to obsess over such things from an outsiders point of view.

But again I have no right to tell anyone involved what to do so do as you please.

You totally have a right to chip in, and I fully agree with what you are saying about over obsessing. It was the first world reference I took issue with. Implying that it was OK for non first world countries. But its grand.

 

[Reapersoul20]

Good thread this, very insightful.

Just let it go, guys. C'mon now.

 

[Red the Bear]

You totally have a right to chip in, and I fully agree with what you are saying about over obsessing. It was the first world reference I took issue with. Implying that it was OK for non first world countries. But its grand.

I see how my wording could come of wrong but having been to some of those more conflicted areas I at least can understand why they're unfortunately so consumed by hate but have a really hard time doing the same for Ireland and England especially when most of the root cause seems to have faded away.

I'm not trying to victim shame or pull of the most have had it worse card but it's clear to me that both these countries are in a position to move on, a position not afforded to many others so it's better to use that opportunity.

 

[moses]

I see how my wording could come of wrong but having been to some of those more conflicted areas I at least can understand why they're unfortunately so consumed by hate but have a really hard time doing the same for Ireland and England especially when most of the root cause seems to have faded away.

I'm not trying to victim shame or pull of the most have had it worse card but it's clear to me that both these countries are in a position to move on, a position not afforded to many others so it's better to use that opportunity.

You're totally right, it becomes arbitrarily partisan. It was something i didn't support in any way then and definitely think we need to move on now.



.

 

[RedC]

Bloody hell.

If you're Irish and don't understand that the IRA aren't solely linked with the troubles/the north in general in the minds of Irish people, then I don't know what to say. I'm not condoning anything here either, but you seem to be ascribing stuff to these women that I severely doubt was the intention.

 

[tothetop96]

Sometimes it's best to say nothing.

Yeah you should have said nothing. Not a notion of the nuances of the conflict yet parading around the thread like you're the moral expert on the topic.

You're okay with poppies commemorating the soldiers of the 40 year long British military operation in northern Ireland where they had a 52% civilian murder rate and a penchant for collusion with loyalist paramilitaries, murdering even more, but draw the line at 'up the 'ra'?

When Irish people were getting burned out of their homes in NI who else was going to protect them?

There were streams of refugees fleeing to the RoI ffs.

 

[Tincanalley]

People are looking too much into it. It's a stupid song that gets sang at times of celebration or too much drink it seems these days. There was no intention to cause any harm when they sang it, they've apologized, time to move on. People are getting offended it seems on other people's behalf which is par the course these days. As I pointed out earlier in thread, it's not an IRA song, it never has been, it's a Celtic FC song.Put it this way, if the intention was to show their support for the IRA, this song wouldn't be the one they'd be singing. This song has almost descened into a karoke type rhythm that gets chanted nowadays

Sensible post. I can’t stand the Wolfe Tones, but even those harvesting clicks from bigging up the outrage know deep down its overcooked. The focus should be on the achievement. Not on Sky Sports ignorance, not on stupid song (yes it’s complicated, etc.,). The team need to focus now on improving their game and being competitive in the upcoming tournament. Football has not gone away, you know.

 

[GoonerBear]

Yeah you should have said nothing. Not a notion of the nuances of the conflict yet parading around the thread like you're the moral expert on the topic.

You're okay with poppies commemorating the soldiers of the 40 year long British military operation in northern Ireland where they had a 52% civilian murder rate and a penchant for collusion with loyalist paramilitaries, murdering even more, but draw the line at 'up the 'ra'?

When Irish people were getting burned out of their homes in NI who else was going to protect them?

There were streams of refugees fleeing to the RoI ffs.

You would think with the way you are describing it that Poppies were solely a symbol specific to the troubles, when we know that's far from the case, when it has far more significance with the Great War and World War 2 afterwards, wars that hundreds of thousands of Irish fought and lost their lives in as well. It's also not only a symbol of remembrance but of hope for a peaceful future.

 

[VidaRed]

What's wrong in celebrating fighting against imperialism ?

Sure there were some cnuts in the ira, but then there were some cnuts in the britsh army aswell, so how about god save the king/queen anthem be stopped for offending the irish ?

 

[VidaRed]

You would think with the way you are describing it that Poppies were solely a symbol specific to the troubles, when we know that's far from the case, when it has far more significance with the Great War and World War 2 afterwards, wars that hundreds of thousands of Irish fought and lost their lives in as well. It's also not only a symbol of remembrance but of hope for a peaceful future.

The british govt of the time had the blood of millions on its hands.

Your history may not record it but the rest of the world knows it.

 

[Ole'sgunnarwin]

What's wrong in celebrating fighting against imperialism ?

Sure there were some cnuts in the ira, but then there were some cnuts in the britsh army aswell, so how about god save the king/queen anthem be stopped for offending the irish ?

Spot on

 

[GoonerBear]

The british govt of the time had the blood of millions on its hands.

Your history may not record it but the rest of the world knows it.

I don't doubt that. However, there's lots of countries got lots of blood on their hands over the years. That's wasn't the point on question though.

 

[Champ]

What's wrong in celebrating fighting against imperialism ?

Sure there were some cnuts in the ira, but then there were some cnuts in the britsh army aswell, so how about god save the king/queen anthem be stopped for offending the irish ?

A freaking men.

I cannot fathom still why some (mainly British folk) still have an issue with why some are republican in Ireland.

Maybe have a look at the history and indeed the present of the country for the answers.

 

[cyberman]

You would think with the way you are describing it that Poppies were solely a symbol specific to the troubles, when we know that's far from the case, when it has far more significance with the Great War and World War 2 afterwards, wars that hundreds of thousands of Irish fought and lost their lives in as well. It's also not only a symbol of remembrance but of hope for a peaceful future.

No, you can’t pick and choose what it represents. Imagine asking Those in Crimea to wear Z symbols every year then tell the Ukrainians there that it’s ok because it represents WW2 and many Ukrainians died there too.

 

[GoonerBear]

No, you can’t pick and choose what it represents. Imagine asking Those in Crimea to wear Z symbols every year then tell the Ukrainians there that it’s ok because it represents WW2 and many Ukrainians died there too.

Who is picking and choosing like?

 

[Champ]

You would think with the way you are describing it that Poppies were solely a symbol specific to the troubles, when we know that's far from the case, when it has far more significance with the Great War and World War 2 afterwards, wars that hundreds of thousands of Irish fought and lost their lives in as well. It's also not only a symbol of remembrance but of hope for a peaceful future.

The poppy is a symbol for support for the British army,

Where was the British armies longest serving deployment? (Hint, Operation Banner).

I'd say that's a pretty big deal and a reason why I and so many others don't wear poppies.

 

[arnie_ni]

No, you can’t pick and choose what it represents. Imagine asking Those in Crimea to wear Z symbols every year then tell the Ukrainians there that it’s ok because it represents WW2 and many Ukrainians died there too.

Can't the same be said about the ira... "you can't pick and choose what they represent".

Some people view them as freedom fighters others as murderers, the same as the British army. That's the issue here. It doesn't matter what the girls see them as when the song goes public.

It's totally overshadowed their success now (outside of ireland)

 

[GoonerBear]

The poppy is a symbol for support for the British army,

Where was the British armies longest serving deployment? (Hint, Operation Banner).

I'd say that's a pretty big deal and a reason why I and so many others don't wear poppies.

I suppose that's your interpretation of it. I have a German boss at my work and I commented on him wearing one and he wears it to remember losses of the 2 World Wars on both sides.

 

[phelans shorts]

Honestly gobsmacked this has been made a story. Well done to the Irish girls on beating Scotland, tough game.