Ah yes, this is why PSG, Chelsea, Tottenham have no problem transitioning between owners and football directors but here at United, we do it differently even though Murtough has been with the club for 10 years.
The John Murtough Era
- Thread starter Trex
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For me, Murtiugh should be the first head to roll as soon as the transfer window closes .
For how much ludicrous we have been made to look, I am surprised he still is here.
For how much ludicrous we have been made to look, I am surprised he still is here.
I'm more and more convinced that the strategy is reading Redcafe
sad reality is the way this bozo is going, we are just 15 days away from this being said unironically.#bringwoodwardback
Yep. Isnt it the DOF's job to point out that Arnautovic is probably not the right move? Why are all our midfield/forward targets extremely different in profile? Why are we going for Rabiot when we could have gone for Kamara, Bissouma, Doucouré etc? Why havent we prioritised positions like midfield, CF, forward and RB which were much more important than a backup LB and AM? Why have we not solved the Ronaldo problem yet? Why is Pereira our only outgoing, when we have so much deadwood?
There are so so many questionable decisions made in such a vital window. Cannot blame it all on Woodward or because we fired couple of lead scouts.
Of course its a generalisation since I am not an insider. But ironically neither are anyone of us here at Caf. So we are all making either generalisations or basing our opinions on little inside knowledge of the workings of United with te exception of possible @Adnan.
As to what you claim to be obvious, unless we know the org chart, the the various responsibilities its not always as easy as lego. Clearly the organisation was a bloated, and full or overlapping responsibilities (based of the number of people in there with fantastic job titles that really could have been handled by one person or two only. This situation really started with Fergie and if you want to talk about nepotism, how about Fergie hiring his own brother inside the organisation.
All that made the organisation bloated and very political. And therefore highly inefficient.
You can see that they are restructuring the organisation, adding more functions (data analyst) and leaning out or streamlining certain departments (regional recruitment).
As in football fan-speak; they need to get rid of a bunch of overlapping roles and deadwood.
No organisation that is undergoing restructuring -- and I have been in a number of global MNCs that have done these exercises every few years -- can be measured by the quarters.
No idea who's responsible for what tbh, but this window is demonstrating those behind the scenes are so far out of their depth its funny. The targets since its become clear FdJ isn't coming have been absolutely hilarious.
Recency effect.
It took the mentioned clubs many years to get to the stage where they could do that without missing a beat. You just have to look back to the pre-Leonardo era at PSG or even Spurs recently.
We were a victim of our own success -- we didn't need much infrastructure under Fergie. He didn't depend on a data analytic department -- it was based on gut instinct and eye test. So we are paying the price of his genius by never having had to build the infrastructure.
The failure on our part has been Woodward's lack of lessons learnt. He had probably expect to hit a home-run with every manager he hired -- and wanting them to be like Fergie. Maybe that's he's reason for not building a modern football club infrastructure.
It really doesn't. The argument is flawed from the very beginning. Let's start from the narrative that Murtough had no power before Woodward left. Its flawed on at least two terms. First of all no CEO can manage everything especially at a juggernaut like United. He delegate things which is precisely what he did by appointing the likes of Murtough and Judge. Murtough was trusted by Woodward. Under the previous CEO he was placed at the top of the football pyramid with Judge reporting to him. So we can assume that Murtough had a huge say in United's strategy and the fact that we're committing the same mistakes (I'd explain later) we did for the past 10 years is further testament to that. But let's entertain for a minute that Murtough had no say whatsoever. Can we trust a man who isn't even trusted by the very person who promoted him as DOF? What does it say of someone who had taken a job knowingly that he has no say whatsoever and is there simply to be made a scapegoat for?
Murtough was presented as our DOF on March 1 2021. Now let's make a list of Murtough mistakes throughout the past year or so. Let's be clear here. We're talking about a person whose been here for 10 years and who knows the club inside out
A- His first appointment was Darren Fletcher as Technical director. I am claiming that he was his first appointment because it would be incredibly naïve for someone to accept the sporting director role only to be forced new staff upon you from day 1. Darren Fletcher started as U16 coach and was given 2 promotions in 6 months. He was fast tracked into a new role United had never had before, whom he had no idea what it entails having never covered the role and quite frankly is so ambiguous that even Ralf Rangnick struggled to understand what it entails
B- During his first summer window we signed Varane, Ronaldo and Sancho. Any football fan knew that Sancho was more comfortable on the left then on the right, that Varane was incredibly injury prone and that Ronaldo was no team player. United made no effort in signing a DM despite the team was screaming for one and it refused to sell Lingard and Pogba despite the duo were heading towards the end of their contract. That's an 60-70m worth of talent lost for free. Does this crazy strategy reminds you of someone? Yep Woodward's era
C- Ole was retained despite the disastrous start of season which included defeats against Young Boys and a proper pelting by Liverpool and City. While Rome was burning the modern version of Nero was allowed to go on holiday to Norway only to return to be at the receiving end of another pelting, this time round by Watford. We ended up hiring Rangnick ie a sporting director in all but name having managed for only 2-3 years in the past DECADE. Rangnick style required hardworking players with top quality passing ability and whose defenders are pacey and technically gifted enough to play a high line. Yet somehow our DOF thought that Ralf, whose philosophy was completely opposite to what our team is was the right guy to save our season. Not only that he had to implement his style in one of the most gruesome time of the season (ie we were playing 2 games per weak), while relying on a skeleton coaching team and without being able to add any new players whatsoever
D- The guy had been with us since we appointed Moyes and yet he needed up to April 20 2020 to acknowledge that the scouts weren't good enough and get rid of them. The media reported that Judge had handled his resignation in April as well (he probably knew beforehand) yet, similarly to the chief scouts, there was no plan to have them replaced (we're in mid August and no one had been hired yet). Meanwhile a consultancy job given to Rangnick in November was cancelled in May. Which means that our DOF, the man who is supposed to lay out the long term vision, made a 180 in just 6 months. Does this knee jerk strategy reminds you of someone? Yep Woodward's era
E- Eventually we got ETH. The way football works (including United), the DOF has a major say on who the next manager is. That means that the DOF and the manager tend to share the same vision including transfer targets etc. However in ETH's case it seems that the first thing he did was to throw every scouting report done under Murtough's supervision in the bin. What's fascinating is that Murtough seem to be quite cool about it as well. Which suggest that he believes that the work that he and his team had done was kind of crap. Meanwhile the likes of Fletcher is still there despite the previous manager having zero clue what he did while Phelan is still with the club as well despite ETH making it obvious that he doesn't want him anywhere to his players. Which makes you wonder. What does a coach do if he can't be anywhere near to the training pitch?
But hey let's pretend that United would have had a fantastic transfer window and that Murtough wouldn't have made a proper fool of himself in Barcelona and Turin if only he could rely on data analysts.
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YOu just have to look at any org chart of a company and you can see how it works.
Generalisation -- the closer you are to the customer, the shorter the time frame on how your performance is gauged. Sales guys can get sacked within a quarter. But CEOs rarely are sacked within a quarter.
Also depends on the phase the product's life cycle is in.
Technical guys' performance for example isn't gauged on a quarterly basis if the product they are helping build takes 3 years to build.
Why is anyone surprised that Murtough has failed? I said from the start its really not that hard to build a decent structure. Look at what City did. They went out and hired the best in football management and gave them the money to do the job. The Glazers I think not only dont care but are not that bright, their ownership is one of total neglect of the club. You only hire from within when you have a track record of success. When you have a track record of gross failure and corrupt culture, as United had, the answer is a new broom and clear out. But Utd hire a new CEO and DOF from within. Whatever his successes Fergie is history and noone at the club should be listening to him. How we have Fletcher in his job with no coaching badges or experience underlines my point. We have become an absolute laughing stock.
There were posters on here defending Murtough etc toward the end of last season. Then Ralf was pilloried for his failures. The problem is the Glazers, they dont care and never will. We need to get them out. Whatever it takes. No other owner who spends the billions needed will want the club to fail.
That's why re-structuring is so bloody difficult. You have institution habits that are tough to break. People hate change. Plus people like protecting their own turf. Trying changing them?
May not be so easy as to sack them.
They basically all got there. And if adnan is right, the data analyst department is brand new. So they barely got up & running. That's why and explains why we are so dependent on ETH's Ajax's connection.
I blame Woodward for not having modernised United. He had 10 years to do it after the great man retired. But he didnt.
How long did City take and prepare before Pep's arrival? Several years.
When you look at restructuring in general of any organisation then you will understand why these things take time and then you judge them.
you mean you blame the guy who trusted Murtough with the DOF role? Also how would data analysts made us look less stupid then we are now? (with our DOF flying to Turin and Barcelona only to come back with souvenirs) Do we need data analysts to figure out that De Jong doesn't want to come to United, that Rabiot isn't really a good player and that his agent/mum is a jerk?
go read @Adnan's posts. It gives you some inside info. It's symptomatic of the malaise that runs with United.
Then I am offering my opinions on adnan's data on how big a job Murtough has to do -- based on my own experiences with organisational restructuring.
Its a hockey curve. We will get bad before we get better.
At least we know, that the United management reads and posts here.
Sorry but this is pathetic. What was Murtough doing before then? He hasnt been brought in from outside. Why have we had no data dept until now? Gross stupidity and ignorance, this is hardly a new concept. We have not brough in an experienced DoF, who might actuallydeserve some time. Also the current window is such a shambles. ETH obsession with buying Ajax player is a big concern and reminiscent of Moyes. I would have hoped he would have come with a broader list of targets. This is a concern. But bottom line, again, its the Glazers who dont care at all who allow this shambles. Nothing is changing and I really fear ETH could be gone in a month or two.
I find them hilarious TBH, yet another excuse to justify this train wreck which goes in line with the 3 year rebuild every time a new manager comes in.
I repeat how would data analysts made us look less stupid then we are now? (with our DOF flying to Turin and Barcelona only to come back with souvenirs) Do we need data analysts to figure out that De Jong doesn't want to come to United, that Rabiot isn't really a good player and that his agent/mum is a jerk? Did we need data analysts to figure out that Varane was incredibly injury prone, that Sancho is far more comfortable on the left then on the right and Ronaldo wasn't a team player? Would data analysts helped us figure out that Rangnick was a sporting director in all but name (he has managed in just 2-3 years out of 10) and that his style was completely built against our strengths which made him a horrible temp manager for us? FFS that information was quite accessible and known by most of fans watching football.
Why not call things for what they are. Murtough is yet another stupid appointment made by Woodward, a man who clearly had no idea of how football works. He is clearly out of depth and the mistakes made this summer is synonymous to that. The earlier he leaves the better.
Well, clearly you have not done any organisation restructuring before. I blame Woodward. We are a dinosaur of a football club. It was within Woodward's timeframe to want to modernise it. But for some reason he failed to see it as it was, an antiquated organisation or he refused to change. I can have a discussion on why Woodward did what he did. But that's another subject.
And if you work within any organisation, if the CEO refuses to change, you below him, have limitations on what you can do especially something as big a project as a restructuring.
Yet somehow we have to trust a DOF who was appointed by this dinosaur of a CEO.
What an odd generalisation. A better one would be: You get judged by the job at hand. If that is something that takes time and has to deliver, then yes you will be judged at the end of that cycle. If it's urgent, like our transfer business this window, you will be judged immediately. He had a job to do this window and that was to strengthen our squad and make it competitive for this season. He failed.
Chelsea have had an even bigger restructuring this summer than us but that hasn't stopped them from adding quality.
I dont agree with it taking a couple of windows for a new DOF to set the ball rolling. That is a failure.
The DOF had nothing to do since January till the Summer Window. That's more than 6 months.
He could have come up with a plan A,B,C,D to sort out the key areas of the squad.
The learning curve is an excuse that a big football club cant be run based upon.
I dont agree with it taking a couple of windows for a new DOF to set the ball rolling. That is a failure.
The DOF had nothing to do since January till the Summer Window. That's more than 6 months.
He could have come up with a plan A,B,C,D to sort out the key areas of the squad.
The learning curve is an excuse that a big football club cant be run based upon.
Murtough and Arnold should be put in stocks in Piccadilly gardens for all the world to see.
Clearly incompetent and should be sacked.
Did Woody put this bloke in charge in some twisted attempt to make himself look better in retrospect?
If adnan is correct, we just didn't have the infrastructure to recruit a wider net.
You are looking at an existing infrastructure that is there to support your activities. We never had one one based on empirical data but maybe more agent based.
Thus the highly skewed approach we had using ETHs rolodex.
Until we develop a more data driven approach and platform we have to be agent dependent.
Woodward was better...
It's astonishing how we keep putting people in vital positions who have no clue what they are doing. Absolutely breathtaking how bad this is at our club. At this time it feels like you could simply bring some random fan in from the street and they couldn't do worse than Murtough and his crew of cretins. Absolute disaster of a transfer window so far. Everyone was expecting us to get things done and really have a go into a new era with new staff and a new exciting manager and it took Murtough not even two months to make all the excitement turn into horror.
For all of you asking for his sacking, what about after that? You think someone better will succeed him? Absolutely zero chance.
He needs to go today, if we wait till the end of the window god knows what more damage he could do.
Reminds me of Spurs Rivaldo now. At least back in 2013-15 we had won the league recently and were looking to bounce back. We're 9 years lost at sea and still trying the same thing over and over to get back to shore.
You've got to hope, I mean if this is the most competent person the club will ever employ in this position then we are pretty ******!!
You can roll your eyes all you want, Woodward was shit, he was better than this though.
Murtough and Arnold need sacking
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I believe he is going to be the fall guy
Well after a "revamp" and restructuring they found him to be most competent, so you can easily say that we are pretty ****** mate.
I dont think he was. If anything he was worse given the amount of money in fees and salaries he wasted. The football structure declined even more under him as he thought he could do it all. Plus he could ride of the legacy appeal of MUFC. He has well and truly sh@t all over that though.
I didn't argue that the problem with this is that it's a generalisation. I argued that even if you accept the general point, that doesn't constitute a viable argument that it's too early to have an opinion on the job John Murtough is doing.
"Org chart"? Whatever the Org chart is, the DoF has fundamental responsibility for a transfer window.
I didn't question the need for restructuring, nor that this involves many measures that take time to bear fruition. But that doesn't mean you can simply suspend any expectations for how the shorter term decisions any football club have to make is handled, until broad structural measures have taken effect. Particularly when those decisions have inescapable longer-term implications.
Also, if a company that needs to undertake serious restructuring that they know will hurt them in the short term and not yield results for quite some time embarks on that course without any acknowledgement that the company is in a state that necessitates this and that there will be short term pain, while continuing to field the same product that has already failed and trying to make adjustments to that product that are widely ridiculed and/or which they also prove unable to make, how would the market react to that? That's what's happening. If the club had come out and said we're in a mess, it's going to take a while to fix it and then embarked on a course of systemic change, then that would I think have been met with a lot of approval, and slack would have been widely cut. But they haven't. And even then, they'd have had to present something that would merit confidence and trust, and sustain their credibility by visible steps that plausibly pointed towards improvement. Because everyone understands that it is foolish indeed to assume that any effort at restructuring can be confidently expected to succeed.
In short - you are not making a credible argument for why Murtough's process merits patience.
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