The Maga **** & Fascism

Kinky Melinky

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A thread geared more towards the actual make up of Maga, exploring what drives people to enter into the madness, what keeps them involved, and why some have left. Why are so many evangelical Christians openly displaying cognitive dissonance on a daily basis, considering a known malignant narcissist like Donald Trump is at total odds with the alleged Liberal teachings of Christ. As a fascist collective, are people drawn to Maga because they believe in Fascism, or are Fascist tactics tricking them into believing they are part of something different and new. Is this an intelligence issue, or are Fascist tactics simply that effective on some. I'd also like to discuss the link between entitlement and Fascism, and how Maga appears to meet that very need.

I realise there is a thread on US politics as well as the US election, but I felt it would be interesting to explore Maga as a **** somewhat in line with the aforementioned suggestions, rather than the thread to be about the goings-on of US politics. I personally believe the Maga **** is about something entirely different to politics. Would love to hear your thoughts, views, share interesting videos, documentaries, psychological view points etc.
 

VorZakone

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I remember a very revealing quote from a Trump supporter that actually criticized Trump:
"He's (Trump) not hurting the right people"

It seems to me that among other factors, his base hates it when "other groups" receive government support or are perceived to receive government support.
 

VorZakone

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Also, when you look at how much they talk about the World Economic Forum, "global elites" and such, there's likely a deep resentment among that part of the base who feel left out during globalization. They are angry at having lost their industrial/manufacturing jobs and they believe it was outsourced to other countries and the "global elites" are to blame.
 

Kinky Melinky

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I'm currently reading 'How Fascism Works' by Jason Stanley. He talks about one of the central elements to Fascism being about a myth being created. This is usually about a better time that once upon a time existed, but was stolen from those who are entitled to want it back. It creates anger and nostalgia for a time that never happened. Those who allegedly stole this from the people are pinpointed and highlighted as the enemy. Its about Making Something Great Again, akin to what Hungary claimed before turning itself into a country led by Totalitarianism. It's why its not surprising that you see pieces on Newsmax about how great Hungary is. For anybody to believe Maga is not a fascist movement with all the bells and whistles is extreme naivety. Yet as Donald Trump takes to the podium to bald faced lie, he tells an appreciative crowd that they are going to war against fascists. The crowd clearly have no idea what they are part of.
 

atkar83

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I think this era will be studied very closely. I mean a large portion of the evangelical base thinks Trump was sent by god. The fecking guy couldn't even put the effort in to answer soft ball questions like "whats your favorite verse in the bible" to which he answered "all of it". Its so obvious he does not care about religion, he won't even put the effort in to take photos at church because he doesn't go. He won't ever talk face to face to evangelicals because he thinks so little of them (beyond yelling at them at his speeches). But millions and millions of people think he's fighting for god to save them and kids (despite his links to Epstein).

Sometimes I think I'm taking crazy pills because none of this makes sense.
 
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HTG

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The leader **** is very strong with the movement. Which is obviously a core principle of fascism. But that's also a good thing in a way. Because once the leader is gone, the movement usually dissolves. There is no coherent underlying policy or ideology uniting these people. The one uniting force is Trump himself. Take the leader out and the movement becomes a rudderless ship of fools, who are infighting and cheating each other.
 

calodo2003

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The weaponized populist campaign that Trump ran in 2016 helped to unlock those discussed above to be able to speak & act more freely, that there was finally someone who ‘got’ them & the message he was sending enthused them like no other politician could have (probably have to go back to Huey Long to see anything similar). By tapping into & illuminating the nationalistic view which resided in the citizenry (sometimes it was nationalistic fervor re: the Charlottesville debacle), Trump was able to brainwash tens of millions of worthless deplorables under the quaint phrase ‘Make America Great Again.’

Eco would have been shocked in 2017 with how many of his fascism features resembled the MAGA movement.
 

Ian Reus

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They are completely obsessed.
Just a quick look on any of their social media pages shows a constant stream of bs right wing media bs and conspiracies.

And attacks on Biden, Clinton and Obama.

And they do not listen to reason at all.

One for the ages.
 

calodo2003

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The leader **** is very strong with the movement. Which is obviously a core principle of fascism. But that's also a good thing in a way. Because once the leader is gone, the movement usually dissolves. There is no coherent underlying policy or ideology uniting these people. The one uniting force is Trump himself. Take the leader out and the movement becomes a rudderless ship of fools, who are infighting and cheating each other.
Yep. Once the Trump keystone is removed, all hell will break loose within the MAGA arch.
 

Sky1981

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The left never wanted to understand why the MAGA thinks and acts the way they do.

Sure they laugh at them, ridicule them, but do they actually want to understand why Trump is so successful?

The usual punch line would be Trump bad, Maga Idiot, followed by an L O L

Just like war against drugs and war on terror. Nobody wants to know what they're dealing with and why they arose in the first place, instead questioning why we cant seem to knock them down.

MAGAs are simpleton, they're just tired of being called stupid and just went feck it mode and feck you. Trump is only the straw and the figure that for once dares to say what they all think collectively.

You dont fix Trump, you have to fix the MAGAs or some new Trump would always comes up one after another. Trump dont create MAGAs. He just see that untapped demographic long before anyone else.
 

HTG

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Yep. Once the Trump keystone is removed, all hell will break loose within the MAGA arch.
And that in itself will obviously cause new dangers and risks. I'm not going to pretend things will magically fix themselves. But once they resort to infighting and the usually unpolitical part of the movement becomes unpolitical again, they lose much of their power. And their appeal to the media should diminish somewhat.
Movements like these are fueled by people who usually don't care about politics. They are the ones most attracted by charismatic leaders. While some of them will remain politically active in some ways, most will just stay away from the ballots again and go on with their lives.
 

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Probably not much different than most other ****-of-personality populist figures in history. He gives the people an (imaginary) enemy to fear and claims he will fight this enemy and take away their fears on their behalf. The ignorant are a willing flock. It's why religion is such a successful tool to keep people docile.

Most people are stoopid and some people are evil enough to exploit this fact for their own gain.
 

moses

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I have no idea either, yet.
Trump tapped into it and amified it. It's always been there. Reagan tapped in too but the Republicans had a much more conservative bent then so the amplification never occurred.

I'm fascinated by this. When I'm not on the move I have a good reading and listening list I'll post.
 

KirkDuyt

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"He talks about one of the central elements to Fascism being about a myth being created. This is usually about a better time that once upon a time existed, but was stolen from those who are entitled to want it back. It creates anger and nostalgia for a time that never happened. Those who allegedly stole this from the people are pinpointed and highlighted as the enemy."

This is exactly the narrative Thierry Baudet and his Forum for Democracy pushes over here. He even founded the renaissance institute to spear head this transition back to the alleged golden days of 15th century Europe.
 

Kinky Melinky

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Trump tapped into it and amified it. It's always been there. Reagan tapped in too but the Republicans had a much more conservative bent then so the amplification never occurred.

I'm fascinated by this. When I'm not on the move I have a good reading and listening list I'll post.
Same as myself. I imagine in years to come there will be some absolutely superb reading material on the matter. They may even include what happened to Maga in psychology curriculums considering how recent it has been. I do agree, it's no different to what happens in any other ****, but the sheer size of Maga as a **** is like nothing I have ever seen before. There are definite correlations between Trump and somebody like Shoko Asahara. They both challenged election results and claimed a rigged election.
 

Kinky Melinky

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"He talks about one of the central elements to Fascism being about a myth being created. This is usually about a better time that once upon a time existed, but was stolen from those who are entitled to want it back. It creates anger and nostalgia for a time that never happened. Those who allegedly stole this from the people are pinpointed and highlighted as the enemy."

This is exactly the narrative Thierry Baudet and his Forum for Democracy pushes over here. He even founded the renaissance institute to spear head this transition back to the alleged golden days of 15th century Europe.
Jesus wept. Not that you need to be warned, but be feckin careful. Fascism is all about the patriarchy in the following order of authority:

1. God
2. The Father
3. The Mother
4. The Children

That's the patriarchy Family. And the leader becomes the Father of the country, and the citizens his children. The reason why the patriarchy family is so important in fascism is because it normalizes what the leader intends to eventually become. When those institutionalized by a patriarchy based family look to a leader, the leader mirrors their own family resulting in the people approving of such ruling. They're familiar with it. It means something to them. Meanwhile, outside the zombie-land bubble and into reality; freedom and individuality have long since flown the nest and have been sucked into the vacuum of oblivion. Everybody is the same, everybody moves in synch with the leader and god help anybody who refuses. It's a terrifying horizon for anybody living in a country where Fascism is knocking loudly on it's door.

Highly recommend that book I referred to above. Your jaw will drop as the author goes through so many tactics that are happening around us right now in 2023.
 

KirkDuyt

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Jesus wept. Not that you need to be warned, but be feckin careful. Fascism is all about the patriarchy in the following order of authority:

1. God
2. The Father
3. The Mother
4. The Children

That's the patriarchy Family. And the leader becomes the Father of the country, and the citizens his children. The reason why the patriarchy family is so important in fascism is because it normalizes what the leader intends to eventually become. When those institutionalized by a patriarchy based family look to a leader, the leader mirrors their own family resulting in the people approving of such ruling. They're familiar with it. It means something to them. Meanwhile, outside the zombie-land bubble and into reality; freedom and individuality have long since flown the nest and have been sucked into the vacuum of oblivion. Everybody is the same, everybody moves in synch with the leader and god help anybody who refuses. It's a terrifying horizon for anybody living in a country where Fascism is knocking loudly on it's door.

Highly recommend that book I referred to above. Your jaw will drop as the author goes through so many tactics that are happening around us right now in 2023.
They were on the rise a few years ago, but has since become a fringe party as their front man has gone of the deep end into conspiracies. This week he told parlement why he thinks the moonlanding and 9/11 weren't real so they're no longer a threat. Even Geert Wilder is mocking him now and while Geert Wilders is a racist cnut, he's very good at mocking people and him turning on them is pretty much the end for them.

I mostly can't believe I'm sort of rooting for Geert Wilders in this case.
 

T00lsh3d

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Here’s a question then. Is Trump smart? As in, could he give you a detailed answer to this question and the why to what he does and how it works.

Or has he just landed on it by fluke?

Or is there someone bright enough behind him who does get it and spoon feeds him the right narrative?
 

VorZakone

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Here’s a question then. Is Trump smart? As in, could he give you a detailed answer to this question and the why to what he does and how it works.

Or has he just landed on it by fluke?

Or is there someone bright enough behind him who does get it and spoon feeds him the right narrative?
I think it's a mix.

I'd say folks like Steve Bannon and others who worked with Trump had a good understanding of the situation. But at the end of the day, Trump is Trump. He has a style, and many people went with it.
 

Kinky Melinky

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Here’s a question then. Is Trump smart? As in, could he give you a detailed answer to this question and the why to what he does and how it works.

Or has he just landed on it by fluke?

Or is there someone bright enough behind him who does get it and spoon feeds him the right narrative?
I think Trump is a master manipulator. He has an overwhelming number of strengths in certain areas, but falls well short in others. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind he knows precisely what he is doing. The roadmap is already there for him since WW2. In fact Fascism was alive and kicking in the US even before the Americans came in and finished the war, and elements of Fascism existed throughout Republican history. Never so much since 2016 mind you. He's using the blueprints. Everything from discrediting the media and offering replacement news in the form of Newsmax, OAN etc, to the Conspiracy Theories, to the generation of a myth that the US needs to fight to regain glory years that never actually existed. It works and he knows it. Originally a left leaning individual, I imagine Trump looked at Conservative America and realised that they were ripe for fascism. He also knew fine well that there were underground alt-right groups laying on the fringes he could give a voice to. It mattered not that this would lead to division, as fascism feeds off division. The more extreme lunatics involved the better!

Smart? I would say as smart as a certain type of criminal is to be able to spot victims, when normally minded people wouldn't think of doing such a thing. But like all malignant narcissists, Trump comes with the same old major flaws that almost always serve to be the ruin of the narcissist.
 

Kinky Melinky

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They were on the rise a few years ago, but has since become a fringe party as their front man has gone of the deep end into conspiracies. This week he told parlement why he thinks the moonlanding and 9/11 weren't real so they're no longer a threat. Even Geert Wilder is mocking him now and while Geert Wilders is a racist cnut, he's very good at mocking people and him turning on them is pretty much the end for them.

I mostly can't believe I'm sort of rooting for Geert Wilders in this case.
Yeah Conspiracy Theories are part and parcel of fascism. They're designed not so much to be believed, but more so to offer alternatives. They make people reconsider what they once firmly believed in. And while encouraging people to reconsider their beliefs isn't a bad thing, in a certain climate for a certain purpose it's beyond nefarious. Conspiracy Theories weaken people's dedication to truth based in logic. Even if somebody doesn't "buy" the Conspiracy Theory, the Theories may just do enough to bring a person to a place where they are 25% less firm in their convictions. It's a form of gaslighting. It's all about division. Get people confused, questioning themselves, discredit the mainstream media, offer another media group as a solution, create a myth, get people angry and nostalgic about the myth, highlight the enemies and rile up your base regularly via rallies. Grow your base, keep the lies flowing like wine and there you have it :lol:

I remember listening to a podcast 6 months ago, and the gentleman being interviewed made a very interesting point. It was a simple point, but it hit the mark. He commented that once upon a time in America the only time you would see Billboards, or Picket Fence type signs of Politicians was during elections, and perhaps for a few days afterwards. Within no time the posters, billboards and signs would all be gone, and life would continue. Trump is the person who launched the never-ending rally, but why? Well, it's a fascist tactic, that's why.
 

T00lsh3d

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I think Trump is a master manipulator. He has an overwhelming number of strengths in certain areas, but falls well short in others. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind he knows precisely what he is doing. The roadmap is already there for him since WW2. In fact Fascism was alive and kicking in the US even before the Americans came in and finished the war, and elements of Fascism existed throughout Republican history. Never so much since 2016 mind you. He's using the blueprints. Everything from discrediting the media and offering replacement news in the form of Newsmax, OAN etc, to the Conspiracy Theories, to the generation of a myth that the US needs to fight to regain glory years that never actually existed. It works and he knows it. Originally a left leaning individual, I imagine Trump looked at Conservative America and realised that they were ripe for fascism. He also knew fine well that there were underground alt-right groups laying on the fringes he could give a voice to. It mattered not that this would lead to division, as fascism feeds off division. The more extreme lunatics involved the better!

Smart? I would say as smart as a certain type of criminal is to be able to spot victims, when normally minded people wouldn't think of doing such a thing. But like all malignant narcissists, Trump comes with the same old major flaws that almost always serve to be the ruin of the narcissist.
Yes. I think he has a lot of psychopathic qualities about him
 

MrMarcello

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Jesus wept. Not that you need to be warned, but be feckin careful. Fascism is all about the patriarchy in the following order of authority:

1. God
2. The Father
3. The Mother
4. The Children

That's the patriarchy Family. And the leader becomes the Father of the country, and the citizens his children. The reason why the patriarchy family is so important in fascism is because it normalizes what the leader intends to eventually become. When those institutionalized by a patriarchy based family look to a leader, the leader mirrors their own family resulting in the people approving of such ruling. They're familiar with it. It means something to them. Meanwhile, outside the zombie-land bubble and into reality; freedom and individuality have long since flown the nest and have been sucked into the vacuum of oblivion. Everybody is the same, everybody moves in synch with the leader and god help anybody who refuses. It's a terrifying horizon for anybody living in a country where Fascism is knocking loudly on it's door.

Highly recommend that book I referred to above. Your jaw will drop as the author goes through so many tactics that are happening around us right now in 2023.
This seems very similar to Theocracy, though I'm no specialist in these forms. Are they intertwined?
 

Kinky Melinky

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This seems very similar to Theocracy, though I'm no specialist in these forms. Are they intertwined?
They certainly are. There is a massive Christian Nationalist push in the US to essentially place Christian Nationalists into as many power positions as possible. It's vile, and beyond depraved. If it ever happened, good luck to anybody who isnt a Christian, or lives their life in a light these people disapprove of. Yet these same Christian Nationalists are totally against Sharia Law. Bonkers. Just blind to their sheer hypocrisy.
 

Blood Mage

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Most people are stoopid and some people are evil enough to exploit this fact for their own gain.
Nice quick summary of the entire history of the human race. It will always be this way too until we go extinct.
 

nimic

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I assume some of you have already read it (or at least heard of it), but for those who haven't it's worth checking out Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco.

The 14 features are particularly insightful.

1. The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the **** of tradition. Traditionalism is of course much older than fascism. Not only was it typical of counter-revolutionary Catholic thought after the French revolution, but it was born in the late Hellenistic era, as a reaction to classical Greek rationalism. In the Mediterranean basin, people of different religions (most of them indulgently accepted by the Roman Pantheon) started dreaming of a revelation received at the dawn of human history. This revelation, according to the traditionalist mystique, had remained for a long time concealed under the veil of forgotten languages — in Egyptian hieroglyphs, in the Celtic runes, in the scrolls of the little known religions of Asia.
This new culture had to be syncretistic. Syncretism is not only, as the dictionary says, “the combination of different forms of belief or practice”; such a combination must tolerate contradictions. Each of the original messages contains a silver of wisdom, and whenever they seem to say different or incompatible things it is only because all are alluding, allegorically, to the same primeval truth.
As a consequence, there can be no advancement of learning. Truth has been already spelled out once and for all, and we can only keep interpreting its obscure message.
One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements. The most influential theoretical source of the theories of the new Italian right, Julius Evola, merged the Holy Grail with The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, alchemy with the Holy Roman and Germanic Empire. The very fact that the Italian right, in order to show its open-mindedness, recently broadened its syllabus to include works by De Maistre, Guenon, and Gramsci, is a blatant proof of syncretism.
If you browse in the shelves that, in American bookstores, are labeled as New Age, you can find there even Saint Augustine who, as far as I know, was not a fascist. But combining Saint Augustine and Stonehenge — that is a symptom of Ur-Fascism.

2. Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism. Both Fascists and Nazis worshiped technology, while traditionalist thinkers usually reject it as a negation of traditional spiritual values. However, even though Nazism was proud of its industrial achievements, its praise of modernism was only the surface of an ideology based upon Blood and Earth (Blut und Boden). The rejection of the modern world was disguised as a rebuttal of the capitalistic way of life, but it mainly concerned the rejection of the Spirit of 1789 (and of 1776, of course). The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.

3. Irrationalism also depends on the **** of action for action’s sake. Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation. Therefore culture is suspect insofar as it is identified with critical attitudes. Distrust of the intellectual world has always been a symptom of Ur-Fascism, from Goering’s alleged statement (“When I hear talk of culture I reach for my gun”) to the frequent use of such expressions as “degenerate intellectuals,” “eggheads,” “effete snobs,” “universities are a nest of reds.” The official Fascist intellectuals were mainly engaged in attacking modern culture and the liberal intelligentsia for having betrayed traditional values.

4. No syncretistic faith can withstand analytical criticism. The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason.

5. Besides, disagreement is a sign of diversity. Ur-Fascism grows up and seeks for consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference. The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.

6. Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration. That is why one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups. In our time, when the old “proletarians” are becoming petty bourgeois (and the lumpen are largely excluded from the political scene), the fascism of tomorrow will find its audience in this new majority.

7. To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in the same country. This is the origin of nationalism. Besides, the only ones who can provide an identity to the nation are its enemies. Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia. But the plot must also come from the inside: Jews are usually the best target because they have the advantage of being at the same time inside and outside. In the U.S., a prominent instance of the plot obsession is to be found in Pat Robertson’s The New World Order, but, as we have recently seen, there are many others.

8. The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies. When I was a boy I was taught to think of Englishmen as the five-meal people. They ate more frequently than the poor but sober Italians. Jews are rich and help each other through a secret web of mutual assistance. However, the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak. Fascist governments are condemned to lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of objectively evaluating the force of the enemy.

9. For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle. Thus pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. It is bad because life is permanent warfare. This, however, brings about an Armageddon complex. Since enemies have to be defeated, there must be a final battle, after which the movement will have control of the world. But such a “final solution” implies a further era of peace, a Golden Age, which contradicts the principle of permanent war. No fascist leader has ever succeeded in solving this predicament.

10. Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology, insofar as it is fundamentally aristocratic, and aristocratic and militaristic elitism cruelly implies contempt for the weak. Ur-Fascism can only advocate a popular elitism. Every citizen belongs to the best people of the world, the members of the party are the best among the citizens, every citizen can (or ought to) become a member of the party. But there cannot be patricians without plebeians. In fact, the Leader, knowing that his power was not delegated to him democratically but was conquered by force, also knows that his force is based upon the weakness of the masses; they are so weak as to need and deserve a ruler. Since the group is hierarchically organized (according to a military model), every subordinate leader despises his own underlings, and each of them despises his inferiors. This reinforces the sense of mass elitism.

11. In such a perspective everybody is educated to become a hero. In every mythology the hero is an exceptional being, but in Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This **** of heroism is strictly linked with the **** of death. It is not by chance that a motto of the Falangists was Viva la Muerte (in English it should be translated as “Long Live Death!”). In non-fascist societies, the lay public is told that death is unpleasant but must be faced with dignity; believers are told that it is the painful way to reach a supernatural happiness. By contrast, the Ur-Fascist hero craves heroic death, advertised as the best reward for a heroic life. The Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death.

12. Since both permanent war and heroism are difficult games to play, the Ur-Fascist transfers his will to power to sexual matters. This is the origin of machismo (which implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality). Since even sex is a difficult game to play, the Ur-Fascist hero tends to play with weapons — doing so becomes an ersatz phallic exercise.

13. Ur-Fascism is based upon a selective populism, a qualitative populism, one might say. In a democracy, the citizens have individual rights, but the citizens in their entirety have a political impact only from a quantitative point of view — one follows the decisions of the majority. For Ur-Fascism, however, individuals as individuals have no rights, and the People is conceived as a quality, a monolithic entity expressing the Common Will. Since no large quantity of human beings can have a common will, the Leader pretends to be their interpreter. Having lost their power of delegation, citizens do not act; they are only called on to play the role of the People. Thus the People is only a theatrical fiction. To have a good instance of qualitative populism we no longer need the Piazza Venezia in Rome or the Nuremberg Stadium. There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.
Because of its qualitative populism Ur-Fascism must be against “rotten” parliamentary governments. One of the first sentences uttered by Mussolini in the Italian parliament was “I could have transformed this deaf and gloomy place into a bivouac for my maniples” — “maniples” being a subdivision of the traditional Roman legion. As a matter of fact, he immediately found better housing for his maniples, but a little later he liquidated the parliament. Wherever a politician casts doubt on the legitimacy of a parliament because it no longer represents the Voice of the People, we can smell Ur-Fascism.

14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. Newspeak was invented by Orwell, in 1984, as the official language of Ingsoc, English Socialism. But elements of Ur-Fascism are common to different forms of dictatorship. All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning. But we must be ready to identify other kinds of Newspeak, even if they take the apparently innocent form of a popular talk show.

You can make up your own mind about how many of these fit MAGA.
 

calodo2003

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I assume some of you have already read it (or at least heard of it), but for those who haven't it's worth checking out Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco.

The 14 features are particularly insightful.

1. The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the **** of tradition. Traditionalism is of course much older than fascism. Not only was it typical of counter-revolutionary Catholic thought after the French revolution, but it was born in the late Hellenistic era, as a reaction to classical Greek rationalism. In the Mediterranean basin, people of different religions (most of them indulgently accepted by the Roman Pantheon) started dreaming of a revelation received at the dawn of human history. This revelation, according to the traditionalist mystique, had remained for a long time concealed under the veil of forgotten languages — in Egyptian hieroglyphs, in the Celtic runes, in the scrolls of the little known religions of Asia.
This new culture had to be syncretistic. Syncretism is not only, as the dictionary says, “the combination of different forms of belief or practice”; such a combination must tolerate contradictions. Each of the original messages contains a silver of wisdom, and whenever they seem to say different or incompatible things it is only because all are alluding, allegorically, to the same primeval truth.
As a consequence, there can be no advancement of learning. Truth has been already spelled out once and for all, and we can only keep interpreting its obscure message.
One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements. The most influential theoretical source of the theories of the new Italian right, Julius Evola, merged the Holy Grail with The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, alchemy with the Holy Roman and Germanic Empire. The very fact that the Italian right, in order to show its open-mindedness, recently broadened its syllabus to include works by De Maistre, Guenon, and Gramsci, is a blatant proof of syncretism.
If you browse in the shelves that, in American bookstores, are labeled as New Age, you can find there even Saint Augustine who, as far as I know, was not a fascist. But combining Saint Augustine and Stonehenge — that is a symptom of Ur-Fascism.

2. Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism. Both Fascists and Nazis worshiped technology, while traditionalist thinkers usually reject it as a negation of traditional spiritual values. However, even though Nazism was proud of its industrial achievements, its praise of modernism was only the surface of an ideology based upon Blood and Earth (Blut und Boden). The rejection of the modern world was disguised as a rebuttal of the capitalistic way of life, but it mainly concerned the rejection of the Spirit of 1789 (and of 1776, of course). The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.

3. Irrationalism also depends on the **** of action for action’s sake. Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation. Therefore culture is suspect insofar as it is identified with critical attitudes. Distrust of the intellectual world has always been a symptom of Ur-Fascism, from Goering’s alleged statement (“When I hear talk of culture I reach for my gun”) to the frequent use of such expressions as “degenerate intellectuals,” “eggheads,” “effete snobs,” “universities are a nest of reds.” The official Fascist intellectuals were mainly engaged in attacking modern culture and the liberal intelligentsia for having betrayed traditional values.

4. No syncretistic faith can withstand analytical criticism. The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason.

5. Besides, disagreement is a sign of diversity. Ur-Fascism grows up and seeks for consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference. The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.

6. Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration. That is why one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups. In our time, when the old “proletarians” are becoming petty bourgeois (and the lumpen are largely excluded from the political scene), the fascism of tomorrow will find its audience in this new majority.

7. To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in the same country. This is the origin of nationalism. Besides, the only ones who can provide an identity to the nation are its enemies. Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia. But the plot must also come from the inside: Jews are usually the best target because they have the advantage of being at the same time inside and outside. In the U.S., a prominent instance of the plot obsession is to be found in Pat Robertson’s The New World Order, but, as we have recently seen, there are many others.

8. The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies. When I was a boy I was taught to think of Englishmen as the five-meal people. They ate more frequently than the poor but sober Italians. Jews are rich and help each other through a secret web of mutual assistance. However, the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak. Fascist governments are condemned to lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of objectively evaluating the force of the enemy.

9. For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle. Thus pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. It is bad because life is permanent warfare. This, however, brings about an Armageddon complex. Since enemies have to be defeated, there must be a final battle, after which the movement will have control of the world. But such a “final solution” implies a further era of peace, a Golden Age, which contradicts the principle of permanent war. No fascist leader has ever succeeded in solving this predicament.

10. Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology, insofar as it is fundamentally aristocratic, and aristocratic and militaristic elitism cruelly implies contempt for the weak. Ur-Fascism can only advocate a popular elitism. Every citizen belongs to the best people of the world, the members of the party are the best among the citizens, every citizen can (or ought to) become a member of the party. But there cannot be patricians without plebeians. In fact, the Leader, knowing that his power was not delegated to him democratically but was conquered by force, also knows that his force is based upon the weakness of the masses; they are so weak as to need and deserve a ruler. Since the group is hierarchically organized (according to a military model), every subordinate leader despises his own underlings, and each of them despises his inferiors. This reinforces the sense of mass elitism.

11. In such a perspective everybody is educated to become a hero. In every mythology the hero is an exceptional being, but in Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This **** of heroism is strictly linked with the **** of death. It is not by chance that a motto of the Falangists was Viva la Muerte (in English it should be translated as “Long Live Death!”). In non-fascist societies, the lay public is told that death is unpleasant but must be faced with dignity; believers are told that it is the painful way to reach a supernatural happiness. By contrast, the Ur-Fascist hero craves heroic death, advertised as the best reward for a heroic life. The Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death.

12. Since both permanent war and heroism are difficult games to play, the Ur-Fascist transfers his will to power to sexual matters. This is the origin of machismo (which implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality). Since even sex is a difficult game to play, the Ur-Fascist hero tends to play with weapons — doing so becomes an ersatz phallic exercise.

13. Ur-Fascism is based upon a selective populism, a qualitative populism, one might say. In a democracy, the citizens have individual rights, but the citizens in their entirety have a political impact only from a quantitative point of view — one follows the decisions of the majority. For Ur-Fascism, however, individuals as individuals have no rights, and the People is conceived as a quality, a monolithic entity expressing the Common Will. Since no large quantity of human beings can have a common will, the Leader pretends to be their interpreter. Having lost their power of delegation, citizens do not act; they are only called on to play the role of the People. Thus the People is only a theatrical fiction. To have a good instance of qualitative populism we no longer need the Piazza Venezia in Rome or the Nuremberg Stadium. There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.
Because of its qualitative populism Ur-Fascism must be against “rotten” parliamentary governments. One of the first sentences uttered by Mussolini in the Italian parliament was “I could have transformed this deaf and gloomy place into a bivouac for my maniples” — “maniples” being a subdivision of the traditional Roman legion. As a matter of fact, he immediately found better housing for his maniples, but a little later he liquidated the parliament. Wherever a politician casts doubt on the legitimacy of a parliament because it no longer represents the Voice of the People, we can smell Ur-Fascism.

14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. Newspeak was invented by Orwell, in 1984, as the official language of Ingsoc, English Socialism. But elements of Ur-Fascism are common to different forms of dictatorship. All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning. But we must be ready to identify other kinds of Newspeak, even if they take the apparently innocent form of a popular talk show.

You can make up your own mind about how many of these fit MAGA.
I think Eco would have been impressed with how many of his tenets applied to Trump / MAGA in 2017 & they only became more entrenched as the years rolled on.
 

nimic

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I think Eco would have been impressed with how many of his tenets applied to Trump / MAGA in 2017 & they only became more entrenched as the years rolled on.
Yep. It's a great shame he died in early 2016, because I am sure he would have a lot to say about the last few years.

Edit: I should say, being Italian I am sure he would also have a lot to say about Italy in the last few years, which he was doing right up until his death. I wonder what he'd think about the Prime Minister being from a party with a logo that contains the actual, unchanged logo of the neo-fascist Italian Social Movement, a party which was literally populated by WW2-era fascists.

 
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calodo2003

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Yep. It's a great shame he died in early 2016, because I am sure he would have a lot to say about the last few years.

Edit: I should say, being Italian I am sure he would also have a lot to say about Italy in the last few years, which he was doing right up until his death. I wonder what he'd think about the Prime Minister being from a party with a logo that contains the actual, unchanged logo of the neo-fascist Italian Social Movement, a party which was literally populated by WW2-era fascists.

Was unaware that he passed away so close to Trump taking office. Eco would have been a mainstay on CNN & MSNBC during Trump's presidency.
 

Kinky Melinky

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I assume some of you have already read it (or at least heard of it), but for those who haven't it's worth checking out Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco.

The 14 features are particularly insightful.

1. The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the **** of tradition. Traditionalism is of course much older than fascism. Not only was it typical of counter-revolutionary Catholic thought after the French revolution, but it was born in the late Hellenistic era, as a reaction to classical Greek rationalism. In the Mediterranean basin, people of different religions (most of them indulgently accepted by the Roman Pantheon) started dreaming of a revelation received at the dawn of human history. This revelation, according to the traditionalist mystique, had remained for a long time concealed under the veil of forgotten languages — in Egyptian hieroglyphs, in the Celtic runes, in the scrolls of the little known religions of Asia.
This new culture had to be syncretistic. Syncretism is not only, as the dictionary says, “the combination of different forms of belief or practice”; such a combination must tolerate contradictions. Each of the original messages contains a silver of wisdom, and whenever they seem to say different or incompatible things it is only because all are alluding, allegorically, to the same primeval truth.
As a consequence, there can be no advancement of learning. Truth has been already spelled out once and for all, and we can only keep interpreting its obscure message.
One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements. The most influential theoretical source of the theories of the new Italian right, Julius Evola, merged the Holy Grail with The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, alchemy with the Holy Roman and Germanic Empire. The very fact that the Italian right, in order to show its open-mindedness, recently broadened its syllabus to include works by De Maistre, Guenon, and Gramsci, is a blatant proof of syncretism.
If you browse in the shelves that, in American bookstores, are labeled as New Age, you can find there even Saint Augustine who, as far as I know, was not a fascist. But combining Saint Augustine and Stonehenge — that is a symptom of Ur-Fascism.

2. Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism. Both Fascists and Nazis worshiped technology, while traditionalist thinkers usually reject it as a negation of traditional spiritual values. However, even though Nazism was proud of its industrial achievements, its praise of modernism was only the surface of an ideology based upon Blood and Earth (Blut und Boden). The rejection of the modern world was disguised as a rebuttal of the capitalistic way of life, but it mainly concerned the rejection of the Spirit of 1789 (and of 1776, of course). The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.

3. Irrationalism also depends on the **** of action for action’s sake. Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation. Therefore culture is suspect insofar as it is identified with critical attitudes. Distrust of the intellectual world has always been a symptom of Ur-Fascism, from Goering’s alleged statement (“When I hear talk of culture I reach for my gun”) to the frequent use of such expressions as “degenerate intellectuals,” “eggheads,” “effete snobs,” “universities are a nest of reds.” The official Fascist intellectuals were mainly engaged in attacking modern culture and the liberal intelligentsia for having betrayed traditional values.

4. No syncretistic faith can withstand analytical criticism. The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason.

5. Besides, disagreement is a sign of diversity. Ur-Fascism grows up and seeks for consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference. The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.

6. Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration. That is why one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups. In our time, when the old “proletarians” are becoming petty bourgeois (and the lumpen are largely excluded from the political scene), the fascism of tomorrow will find its audience in this new majority.

7. To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in the same country. This is the origin of nationalism. Besides, the only ones who can provide an identity to the nation are its enemies. Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia. But the plot must also come from the inside: Jews are usually the best target because they have the advantage of being at the same time inside and outside. In the U.S., a prominent instance of the plot obsession is to be found in Pat Robertson’s The New World Order, but, as we have recently seen, there are many others.

8. The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies. When I was a boy I was taught to think of Englishmen as the five-meal people. They ate more frequently than the poor but sober Italians. Jews are rich and help each other through a secret web of mutual assistance. However, the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak. Fascist governments are condemned to lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of objectively evaluating the force of the enemy.

9. For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle. Thus pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. It is bad because life is permanent warfare. This, however, brings about an Armageddon complex. Since enemies have to be defeated, there must be a final battle, after which the movement will have control of the world. But such a “final solution” implies a further era of peace, a Golden Age, which contradicts the principle of permanent war. No fascist leader has ever succeeded in solving this predicament.

10. Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology, insofar as it is fundamentally aristocratic, and aristocratic and militaristic elitism cruelly implies contempt for the weak. Ur-Fascism can only advocate a popular elitism. Every citizen belongs to the best people of the world, the members of the party are the best among the citizens, every citizen can (or ought to) become a member of the party. But there cannot be patricians without plebeians. In fact, the Leader, knowing that his power was not delegated to him democratically but was conquered by force, also knows that his force is based upon the weakness of the masses; they are so weak as to need and deserve a ruler. Since the group is hierarchically organized (according to a military model), every subordinate leader despises his own underlings, and each of them despises his inferiors. This reinforces the sense of mass elitism.

11. In such a perspective everybody is educated to become a hero. In every mythology the hero is an exceptional being, but in Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This **** of heroism is strictly linked with the **** of death. It is not by chance that a motto of the Falangists was Viva la Muerte (in English it should be translated as “Long Live Death!”). In non-fascist societies, the lay public is told that death is unpleasant but must be faced with dignity; believers are told that it is the painful way to reach a supernatural happiness. By contrast, the Ur-Fascist hero craves heroic death, advertised as the best reward for a heroic life. The Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death.

12. Since both permanent war and heroism are difficult games to play, the Ur-Fascist transfers his will to power to sexual matters. This is the origin of machismo (which implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality). Since even sex is a difficult game to play, the Ur-Fascist hero tends to play with weapons — doing so becomes an ersatz phallic exercise.

13. Ur-Fascism is based upon a selective populism, a qualitative populism, one might say. In a democracy, the citizens have individual rights, but the citizens in their entirety have a political impact only from a quantitative point of view — one follows the decisions of the majority. For Ur-Fascism, however, individuals as individuals have no rights, and the People is conceived as a quality, a monolithic entity expressing the Common Will. Since no large quantity of human beings can have a common will, the Leader pretends to be their interpreter. Having lost their power of delegation, citizens do not act; they are only called on to play the role of the People. Thus the People is only a theatrical fiction. To have a good instance of qualitative populism we no longer need the Piazza Venezia in Rome or the Nuremberg Stadium. There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.
Because of its qualitative populism Ur-Fascism must be against “rotten” parliamentary governments. One of the first sentences uttered by Mussolini in the Italian parliament was “I could have transformed this deaf and gloomy place into a bivouac for my maniples” — “maniples” being a subdivision of the traditional Roman legion. As a matter of fact, he immediately found better housing for his maniples, but a little later he liquidated the parliament. Wherever a politician casts doubt on the legitimacy of a parliament because it no longer represents the Voice of the People, we can smell Ur-Fascism.

14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. Newspeak was invented by Orwell, in 1984, as the official language of Ingsoc, English Socialism. But elements of Ur-Fascism are common to different forms of dictatorship. All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning. But we must be ready to identify other kinds of Newspeak, even if they take the apparently innocent form of a popular talk show.

You can make up your own mind about how many of these fit MAGA.
Superb stuff Nimic! Bravo. I think Fascism is apolitical, however it has a tendency to find its way into Conservative Politics for obvious reasons such as Traditionalism, Religiosity etc.
 

neverdie

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11. In such a perspective everybody is educated to become a hero. In every mythology the hero is an exceptional being, but in Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This **** of heroism is strictly linked with the **** of death. It is not by chance that a motto of the Falangists was Viva la Muerte (in English it should be translated as “Long Live Death!”). In non-fascist societies, the lay public is told that death is unpleasant but must be faced with dignity; believers are told that it is the painful way to reach a supernatural happiness. By contrast, the Ur-Fascist hero craves heroic death, advertised as the best reward for a heroic life. The Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death.

Hello Marvel. The Banality of Evil is more worthwhile than Eco's 14 point condensed version (interesting as it is). Totalitarianism, too, a more useful descriptor than fascism or communism (each the same in the totalitarian respect). War Economy is that which marks fascism/totalitarianism and the conveyor belt of filmic representations which saturate a body politic, subliminally, into general obeyance of death-**** via heroism. Totalitarianism is a slow-creep. You could argue we live in a corporate state of totalitarianism today without too much effort. You can speak, and protest, but what's changing? Political systems basically without any capacity to act because of corporate usurpation (totally, as it goes).

We have lived in a death-**** called War Economy for thousands of years. I don't really appreciate Eco's delimitation of the scope/scale. It continues today. It is corporatized military industrial complex which works for no one (something the rich will find out if course not altered).

As an exercise, how many of these points fit the Democratic/Non-Trump parties, or the Labour party? Most. Just not with "religion".
 
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VorZakone

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What strikes me is how universal certain trends are. Far-right leaders and organizations always seem to try to appeal to farmers for example.
 

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Went to see Bill Burr the other week and he said something funny regarding this.

Something along the lines of: Do you know why the KKK and terrorist/fascist groups like Proud Boys exist? Because they're picking on the "right" people. The second they try any of this shit against white people the army will be called in to flatten them. Until then it's all "well Democracy says that everyone should be able to express their opinion, we don't have to agree but we have to listen..."
 

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11. In such a perspective everybody is educated to become a hero. In every mythology the hero is an exceptional being, but in Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This **** of heroism is strictly linked with the **** of death. It is not by chance that a motto of the Falangists was Viva la Muerte (in English it should be translated as “Long Live Death!”). In non-fascist societies, the lay public is told that death is unpleasant but must be faced with dignity; believers are told that it is the painful way to reach a supernatural happiness. By contrast, the Ur-Fascist hero craves heroic death, advertised as the best reward for a heroic life. The Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death.

Hello Marvel. The Banality of Evil is more worthwhile than Eco's 14 point condensed version (interesting as it is). Totalitarianism, too, a more useful descriptor than fascism or communism (each the same in the totalitarian respect). War Economy is that which marks fascism/totalitarianism and the conveyor belt of filmic representations which saturate a body politic, subliminally, into general obeyance of death-**** via heroism. Totalitarianism is a slow-creep. You could argue we live in a corporate state of totalitarianism today without too much effort. You can speak, and protest, but what's changing? Political systems basically without any capacity to act because of corporate usurpation (totally, as it goes).

We have lived in a death-**** called War Economy for thousands of years. I don't really appreciate Eco's delimitation of the scope/scale. It continues today. It is corporatized military industrial complex which works for no one (something the rich will find out if course not altered).

As an exercise, how many of these points fit the Democratic/Non-Trump parties, or the Labour party? Most. Just not with "religion".
Given that Eco deliberately made this list to describe fascism, it feels the ultimate exercise in both sides-ism to claim that they apply to "everyone". IMO that's not a deep or pragmatic observation, just pseudo-intellectual. Stretching that back thousands of years, meaning essentially all of human history, makes it patently meaningless.
 

neverdie

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Given that Eco deliberately made this list to describe fascism, it feels the ultimate exercise in both sides-ism to claim that they apply to "everyone". IMO that's not a deep or pragmatic observation, just pseudo-intellectual. Stretching that back thousands of years, meaning essentially all of human history, makes it patently meaningless.
Have to disagree entirely (knowing Eco's work inside out, beyond just the political, that isn't the critique I made). It's that totalitarianism is a better descriptor regardless of the self-declarative of any given death-**** (communist/fascist) and you do have to go back quite some time to understand (as Eco does, if you follow his writings, being a Marxist critic in the teleological model of historical movements).
 
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Sweet Square

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Tbh liberals/progressives tend to use the term fascism in the same way conservatives use communism. It gets used as a stand in for bad vibes rather than as a particular form of political ideology/economy.

Which is nothing new and I’m sure done the same in the past but it does make the term almost meaningless. There’s really no similarities between fascism of the 1930’s and politics in 2023.
 

calodo2003

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Tbh liberals/progressives tend to use the term fascism in the same way conservatives use communism. It gets used as a stand in for bad vibes rather than as a particular form of political ideology/economy.

Which is nothing new and I’m sure done the same in the past but it does make the term almost meaningless. There’s really no similarities between fascism of the 1930’s and politics in 2023.
They aren't completely dissimilar. What we are seeing today is a new flavor of fascism that does have some roots in the fascism of the 30s...

https://theconversation.com/no-this-isnt-the-1930s-but-yes-this-is-fascism-68867