The McFred midfield duo

DRJosh

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There doesn't seem to be a patterned way of closing down opposition players in this team when we loose the ball in the opposition half or penalty box.

A big part of that problem is the positioning of Fred and MCT and obviously what Ole is instructing them to do.

I think we often get too bogged down with specific player traits but the fundamental patterns of play must be established first.
 

reelworld

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So basically you want to plug the small, diminutive attacking midfielder who has struggled to impose himself on any of our games, who hasn’t impressed or established himself so far in the PL, who doesn’t possess any defensive attributes, into a crucial defensive role. You criticise Ole and yet the thought process here is pretty incredible.
VdB was 6 foot tall.
And height isn't important for the position. Kante for example is 5"5'
 

romufc

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There doesn't seem to be a patterned way of closing down opposition players in this team when we loose the ball in the opposition half or penalty box.

A big part of that problem is the positioning of Fred and MCT and obviously what Ole is instructing them to do.

I think we often get too bogged down with specific player traits but the fundamental patterns of play must be established first.
Exactly this.

We cannot press at all, I have seen Fred get drawn in and a little shimmy and he gets sent every time. Its actually a joke how easily players get past Fred.

Then when he needs to jockey and keep it tight, he conceded a foul outside the area.

We need to do better collectively as a team, if we are going to press then the full backs need to press higher
 

justsomebloke

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We won matches effectively with McFred when playing against the top opposition teams not the mid table or low table teams. Our stats team need to tell that to Ole.
We won only one game against the top opposition teams last year. So not sure what you want the stats team to tell Ole?
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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We won only one game against the top opposition teams last year. So not sure what you want the stats team to tell Ole?
I want the stats team to tell Ole that all those wins with McFred he keeps blabbering about were against top oppositions like Chelsea, Spurs, PSG, City, AC Milan, and etc not against the mid table and lesser teams. Thus, he needs to start using different midfield against the mid and lesser teams.
 

justsomebloke

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I want the stats team to tell Ole that all those wins with McFred he keeps blabbering about were against top oppositions like Chelsea, Spurs, PSG, City, AC Milan, and etc not against the mid table and lesser teams. Thus, he needs to start using different midfield against the mid and lesser teams.
We didn't beat Chelsea last season. Spurs and AC Milan are hardly "top opposition". But maybe you could begin by showing us the stats you base that argument on?
 

SonyaCross493

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I don't know why Matic isn't playing. He's our best CDM. Surely he can play atleast once a week? He's two years younger than Ronaldo.
 

Ayoba

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I don't know why Matic isn't playing. He's our best CDM. Surely he can play atleast once a week? He's two years younger than Ronaldo.
I agree and I keep saying, we need to try this midfield:


Bruno----Matic----VDB
 

NewGlory

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As I've had it enough with them because they offer no control nor any protection, I'm asking the caftards for suggestions to replace them.
Start Pogba and accept the risks ? (They cannot be worse than the current ones we see with them). Play DVB more regularly ?
What can be done ?
In the short-term, play Matic-DvB as much as Matic can. When he cannot, play McT-DvB.

In the long term - buy #6 and play DvB as #8.

Pogba is a bench replacement for Bruno who should not be playing this much. Also, Pogba is gone end of season.

But in reality none of this will happen because Ole hates DvB, has a crush on Fred and wouldnt dare benching Pogba permanently
 

kouroux

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In the short-term, play Matic-DvB as much as Matic can. When he cannot, play McT-DvB.

In the long term - buy #6 and play DvB as #8.

Pogba is a bench replacement for Bruno who should not be playing this much. Also, Pogba is gone end of season.

But in reality none of this will happen because Ole hates DvB, has a crush on Fred and wouldnt dare benching Pogba permanently
I love how you are so sure about that
 

Chairman Steve

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McFred is only truly effective in like half a dozen games a season? In comparison to the 50-60 games we get a season.

Them being used against the likes of Villa, Everton and Soton is counter-productive to us.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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We didn't beat Chelsea last season. Spurs and AC Milan are hardly "top opposition". But maybe you could begin by showing us the stats you base that argument on?
We beat Chelsea in 2019 though.

McFred record:

Vs Tottenham (2W, 1D)
Vs City (2W, 1D, 1L)
Vs Chelsea (1W, 2D)
Vs Liverpool (2D, 1L)
Vs Arsenal (1D, 1L)

Vs PSG (2W, 1L)
Vs AC Milan (1W)

8W, 7D, 4L. Clearly these are the argument of good results that Ole made when he was talking about McFred last week, so I don’t know why do you want to exclude Spurs and Milan? Should I strengthened my argument even more that we conceded to arsenal when Fred got subbed off and we drew 0-0 to arsenal when McTominay got subbed off in first half, which makes it to 8W 6D 3L. Thus, he needs to start using different midfield against the mid and lesser teams.
 

NewGlory

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We beat Chelsea in 2019 though.

McFred record:

Vs Tottenham (2W, 1D)
Vs City (2W, 1D, 1L)
Vs Chelsea (1W, 2D)
Vs Liverpool (2D, 1L)
Vs Arsenal (1D, 1L)

Vs PSG (2W, 1L)
Vs AC Milan (1W)

8W, 7D, 4L. Clearly these are the argument of good results that Ole made when he was talking about McFred last week, so I don’t know why do you want to exclude Spurs and Milan?
If we may extract top title contenders from that list and look at our record against them:

Vs City (2W, 1D, 1L)
Vs Chelsea (1W, 2D)
Vs Liverpool (2D, 1L)

This is not a good result for a title contender. You cannot win EPL title with such results, this day and age. If Ole thinks this is good, no wonder we are not winning. Especially considering that we would need to win virtually every game against other teams, which we clearly also never can
 

Ali Dia

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McFred is only truly effective in like half a dozen games a season? In comparison to the 50-60 games we get a season.

Them being used against the likes of Villa, Everton and Soton is counter-productive to us.
we scored 1 goal against Villa and Everton at home with Pogba Cavani Ronaldo Greenwood Sancho Bruno and Martial all on the pitch for enough minutes to change a game and they got one goal between them. I’m sure our XG for both games was around 2. McFred isn’t to blame for everything that’s been going wrong. They are an easy target though. Our attacking unit has been awful easy to keep out since the main man came in. People don’t want to admit that yet though. It can also still improve.
 

justsomebloke

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We beat Chelsea in 2019 though.

McFred record:

Vs Tottenham (2W, 1D)
Vs City (2W, 1D, 1L)
Vs Chelsea (1W, 2D)
Vs Liverpool (2D, 1L)
Vs Arsenal (1D, 1L)

Vs PSG (2W, 1L)
Vs AC Milan (1W)

8W, 7D, 4L. Clearly these are the argument of good results that Ole made when he was talking about McFred last week, so I don’t know why do you want to exclude Spurs and Milan? Should I strengthened my argument even more that we conceded to arsenal when Fred got subbed off and we drew 0-0 to arsenal when McTominay got subbed off in first half, which makes it to 8W 6D 3L. Thus, he needs to start using different midfield against the mid and lesser teams.
okay, so what is their record playing against inferior teams? And how does our record without them look by comparison, against top teams and against inferior teams? You have to know that to make the point you do.

Not sure it's really a good idea to go all the way back to 2019 for samples. Very different team. Would look back to either start of last season, or February 2020.
 

justsomebloke

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If we may extract top title contenders from that list and look at our record against them:

Vs City (2W, 1D, 1L)
Vs Chelsea (1W, 2D)
Vs Liverpool (2D, 1L)

This is not a good result for a title contender. You cannot win EPL title with such results, this day and age. If Ole thinks this is good, no wonder we are not winning. Especially considering that we would need to win virtually every game against other teams, which we clearly also never can
not the point though. The point is do we do better with them than we do without them?
 

NewGlory

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we scored 1 goal against Villa and Everton at home with Pogba Cavani Ronaldo Greenwood Sancho Bruno and Martial all on the pitch for enough minutes to change a game and they got one goal between them. I’m sure our XG for both games was around 2. McFred isn’t to blame for everything that’s been going wrong. They are an easy target though. Our attacking unit has been awful easy to keep out since the main man came in. People don’t want to admit that yet though. It can also still improve.
Midfield connects defense and attack. They can be blamed for a lot. And it would be legit. Sure - not everything, but a lot, more than you are allowing.

When you have two midfielders who are simply not adequate level, and when every opponent of yours knows it and exposes it, you are in trouble. Obviously, it doesn't help that Bruno and Pogba have horrible pass accuracy and tendency to give balls away all the time.

Also important is that Luke Shaw has been poor. Our attack relies on his crosses a lot and when he is poor we are usually poor. There is strong correlation there
 

0le

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If we may extract top title contenders from that list and look at our record against them:

Vs City (2W, 1D, 1L)
Vs Chelsea (1W, 2D)
Vs Liverpool (2D, 1L)

This is not a good result for a title contender. You cannot win EPL title with such results, this day and age. If Ole thinks this is good, no wonder we are not winning. Especially considering that we would need to win virtually every game against other teams, which we clearly also never can
In my opinion 2 loses against your rivals in 10 games is a great return of results. Ideally you want to win more, but the main objective is not to lose thoe games.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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okay, so what is their record playing against inferior teams? And how does our record without them look by comparison, against top teams and against inferior teams? You have to know that to make the point you do.

Not sure it's really a good idea to go all the way back to 2019 for samples. Very different team. Would look back to either start of last season, or February 2020.
Sorry mate, but that’s not how it works. You don’t get into argument with someone who have stats without sharing your stats.

I showed what I needed to prove my point about all those good results with McFred Ole keeps blabbering about were against top oppositions. If you disagree with it then prove it wrong by counter it.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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If we may extract top title contenders from that list and look at our record against them:

Vs City (2W, 1D, 1L)
Vs Chelsea (1W, 2D)
Vs Liverpool (2D, 1L)

This is not a good result for a title contender. You cannot win EPL title with such results, this day and age. If Ole thinks this is good, no wonder we are not winning. Especially considering that we would need to win virtually every game against other teams, which we clearly also never can
Basically, 80% unbeaten record. Well, it is good record in the manager’s view.
 

Kostov

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So basically you want to plug the small, diminutive attacking midfielder who has struggled to impose himself on any of our games, who hasn’t impressed or established himself so far in the PL, who doesn’t possess any defensive attributes, into a crucial defensive role. You criticise Ole and yet the thought process here is pretty incredible.
For a minute I though you were describing Fred there, small, doesn't possess any defensive attributes yet give a role .
 

Zen86

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For a minute I though you were describing Fred there, small, doesn't possess any defensive attributes yet give a role .
I don’t remember seeing Fred start as a single DM very often recently, nor have I seen anyone clamouring for him to do so.
 

El Jefe

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Mctominay as a sole holding midfielder is a recipe for disaster, he doesn't have a good first touch and can't pass, he's an awful option for the role. The fact that they think Scott can even perform this role should tell you why we look hopeless in midfield.
 

NewGlory

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In my opinion 2 loses against your rivals in 10 games is a great return of results. Ideally you want to win more, but the main objective is not to lose thoe games.
This is confusing because that chart also reflects cup games but notice how few wins. Too many draws. If you cannot beat your rivals at home, and at least some of them away... I mean it is a good result for top4 position, but for winning the league? You would need to win everything else then, which we never can
 

NewGlory

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Basically, 80% unbeaten record. Well, it is good record in the manager’s view.
Yeah well that is the problem, though, is not it? This whole "unbeaten" thing is such bullshit. If you are fighting for a title a draw is a horrible result where you drop two points. You can't win a league with too many draws even if you never lose a single game (perfect unbeaten record). In reality losing more and winning more gets you better balance than a lot of draws
 

Zoo

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Mctominay as a sole holding midfielder is a recipe for disaster, he doesn't have a good first touch and can't pass, he's an awful option for the role. The fact that they think Scott can even perform this role should tell you why we look hopeless in midfield.
Indeed. Maybe Robbo should have a word.

 

justsomebloke

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Sorry mate, but that’s not how it works. You don’t get into argument with someone who have stats without sharing your stats.

I showed what I needed to prove my point about all those good results with McFred Ole keeps blabbering about were against top oppositions. If you disagree with it then prove it wrong by counter it.
Wrong. How it works is you don't make an argument based on stats unless you can present them.

You argue that we do well against Top teams with McFred, but badly against inferior teams.
You have obviously not presented stats that supports and underpins that . The only thing you've done is list some games we've won with McFred in the lineup. Unless there's something more within these 12 pages, but I am assuming you would have alluded to that in our exchange if there was.

No one can either agree or disagree with you until you have made a more serious argument than that. There's literally nothing to have an opinion about, because you haven't established the facts.

Here's a start: Comparing Man Utd's record with and without McFred since 2020-21 - Planet Football
 
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Danillaco

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Matic should start most matches and give us 60-70 minutes. Until we learn how to press, we should sacrifice one forward and play with Matic, Pogba, and vdB/Fred/McT in the middle. Essentially our best Jose formation with one of those three replacing Herrera and then 3 of our 7 forwards running around up top.
Play a 442 diamond then, with Bruno up top. Ronaldo plus one on the attack.
 

lex talionis

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Our eyes confirm that McFred, as we loving describe the dynamic duo of McTominay and Fred, hasn't been working well at all for us this season. However well they did or did not perform in the past, they're just not getting it done in the present. And apart from Ole, no one is surprised at their lack of effectiveness.

Even if McFred were to hit their very top gear in the next few games, playing both means one less attacking player. That's not an optimal situation when the strength in the squad are our attacking players (with all due respect to our defenders).

With Rashford coming back we really can't be having two of Ronaldo, Sancho, Greenwood, Bruno, Pogba and Rashford sitting down when the first whistle is blown. (Cavani understands the situation he's in, as does Lingard, and by now it's clear as crystal blue day in fall that Ole has no use for Donny Van de Beek.)

Go with Matic for as long as he can go, commit mayhem against the opposing keeper, then sub off Matic and one of the five attacking players named above with McFred and salt away glorious victory, onward and upward.

Starting XI, when all are fit:

De Gea
AWB Varane Maguire Shaw
Matic Pogba
Greenwood (or Sancho) Bruno Rashford
Ronaldo

If this crew can't score 2-3 goals by the 60th minute against all but the top 3 of the other 19 sides in the league we are truly fekked anyway and Ole will be sacked in May. And if we're fekked anyway then why not at least give the fans the best possible chance of actually winning games (instead of settling for ugly draws), rather than wheeling out McFred in the starting XI and praying that we nick a goal in the 87th minute for the one nil win?
 
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If we may extract top title contenders from that list and look at our record against them:

Vs City (2W, 1D, 1L)
Vs Chelsea (1W, 2D)
Vs Liverpool (2D, 1L)

This is not a good result for a title contender. You cannot win EPL title with such results, this day and age. ......
Actually. You win league title by barely losing to direct rivals home or away and beating up on everyone else on home soil. United has not been able to challenge for a title because we struggle against weaker opposition who park the bus. Poor home record against such sides last season cost us any chance of a title challenge
 
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Basically, 80% unbeaten record. Well, it is good record in the manager’s view.
Its should be a good one in any serious view. Titles are won by blowing away the rest of the league at home. Plus being unbeaten against them away, winning most of them. Our Achilles heel has been hemorrhaging points to clubs below the top 7 or 8
 

git_united

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Play a 442 diamond then, with Bruno up top. Ronaldo plus one on the attack.
I'd be fine with this. We have lots of combinations that (in theory) could work in the 2 up top. We'd still be unbalanced going forward because we'd get no width on the right but Shaw has shown that he can supply the width on the left. On the other hand I think we'd be able to manage defensive transitions better.
 

Lee565

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Ole's insistence on playing 4231 is doing none of our midfielders any favours, we have basically 4 box to box midfielders in vdb, pogba, mctominay and in his own words fred but they all getting pigeonholed in to either a defensive or attacking midfielder role or in pogba's case even a winger.
 

Red00012

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Instead of playing Fred he is doing the next best thing playing Matic today...
I’m at a stage where I don’t mind seeing Matic over Fred. Albeit Matic had 2 nightmares v Leicester last season
 

Flytan

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I’m at a stage where I don’t mind seeing Matic over Fred. Albeit Matic had 2 nightmares v Leicester last season
I feel the same way. Fred's been completely awful recently. Matic hasn't played in 2 weeks (right?), so he should be completely rested and able to go for at least one game at a high level.