The McFred midfield duo

[Bobcat]

I'm really amazed you guys didn't sign a quality CM in the window. You did well in other areas but seems a bit like Fergie's last season when you had average quality in there compared to defence and final third. He was good enough still to win the league, OGS isn't.

I said it before today aswell but no way would I swop Luiz or John McGinn for the two sitters you had today even if they have good games on occasions. We had better today in that area and we'll probably finish 8th.

Short term solution to drop Pogba back into middle two for added creativity but you've seen pros and cons of that over last 5 seasons.

This. I honestly think Fred gets too much shit from some fans as hes very decent at breaking up play, but the McFred partnership is one of the worst in the league

Also agree with the bolded part and think thats what we need to do. Drop Pogba back and let Sancho play LW. Pogba has one too many dangerous losses of posession, but at least he does not treat the ball like a hot potato

 

[amolbhatia50k]

We desperately need to upgrade on both of them. Incredible that we haven't for this long. The manager should have prioritised this and made it happen but then again he doesn't care for or understand possesion footy

 

[Kopral Jono]

I like McT, but he's so inconsistent. Some games he is on it and looks solid, and other days his touch is heavy and everything is overhit. There's never any middleground with him. If he could consistently be at his top level, he'd be a valuable player for us. There's still time for him.

Fred is just awful all of the time. He was a significant downgrade on Herrera, who was just about above average at best himself. Fred's touch is woeful, and sometimes he doesn't even have a first touch as the ball just goes through his feet. Happens just about every game. Happened twice today. Comedy player. What are his ball-winning/tackling stats even like? It feels like all his charging around rarely even results in winning the ball back. He occasionally gets in a tussle where it looks like he's going to win the ball, and then somehow still doesn't. He is infuriating to watch, and I don't think there are many teams in the league where he starts.

I echo your sentiments exactly but today I thought Fred was the better of the two. McTominay, just as I said after West Ham last week, doesn't look match fit and looked absolutely terrible today. But as to why we lost today is completely on the manager: playing a double pivot against Villa at home when you have Varane and Maguire at centre half is mind-boggling.

 

[Litch]

I echo your sentiments exactly but today I thought Fred was the better of the two. McTominay, just as I said after West Ham last week, doesn't look match fit and looked absolutely terrible today. But as to why we lost today is completely on the manager: playing a double pivot against Villa at home when you have Varane and Maguire at centre half is mind-boggling.

what would the alternative be than the double pivot with this personel ?

 

[JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo]

The loyalty towards Fred will kill us long term. He breaks up opposing attacks but he also breaks up our attacks with his awful passing and puts us into difficulties that he then has to try and recover from.

Hes not an awful player but hes not good enough. Mourinho was right.

 

[noodlehair]

Yes. They were poor today because a team pressed us. When not pressed too much like vs WH in the 1st half they can look good.

I don't think Ole has anything to lose at this point in trying McT and VDB. Yes, I left Fred off as I'm really tired of his poor first touches and lack of vision. I just watched Chelsea v MC and both have such good center DMs in Jorghino and Rodrigo. If only we had someone of that quality.

Yeah. I mean they're decent when pressed sometimes. They've both had really good games against the likes of City and Liverpool when they've pressed us, but it only happens when they're fully on song and then we don't have anyone else to take some of the weight when they aren't.

I'd probably try VDB and Mctominay as well but I don't think he's in any better form than Fred. He'd just be a better match because he's got a bit of physicality.

I think Pogba is still a problem as well. We don't have a position for him because his position really is where fernandes plays. We're trying to force him in on the wing but it makes our attack completely disjointed as there's no balance. Everyone is just doing what they want and the opposition right back has reign to just be an extra man in and off the ball.

It's all a bit of a massive mess to be honest.

I agree about City/Chelsea. They both have players in midfield who are just good enough to do the job with a bit of class even when they're not in 10/10 mode, at which point you get consistency. That's what we should have been searching for as a priority for a few years now

 

[Kopral Jono]

what would the alternative be than the double pivot with this personel ?

I'd have Van de Beek playing in a more advanced role and either of McTominay or Fred dropping a bit deeper. Playing a double pivot against the likes Aston Villa, with all due respect to them and other middling Premier League sides, is overkill. Varane and Maguire are more than good enough to cope with what these sides have to offer attacking-wise.

 

[Judas]

Neither are good enough starters, I personally wouldn't even have Fred as a squad player.

 

[RedRonaldo]

I think the biggest problem of our midfield, of course coaching has to be one of the problem, but our biggest problem, is our lack of build up play from our midfielders:

- McFred can't pass, lack of progressive play
- Pogba is an indivdualist, who has doesn't work hard enough for the team build up, and who cares more about doing fanzy things, such as carrying the ball forward, dribbling, and delivering the final ball.
- Bruno is impact type of player, who focus more on delivering the final ball or scoring goals. He is a good no.10, but he doesn't involves much in midfield build up play.
- Matic is too slow, he tends to carry the ball more, and making more long pass rather than short pass. We need midifelders who are also committed in making lot of progressive short pass too

I acuallly think, the only suitable options we have here, is VDB. It just seems to me he is the type of players who would shine under a system with lots of build up play around. From what I've seen, he is a good team player, and he is good at progressive passing. He is just not necessary good at carrying the ball, or create something out of nothing. But I don't need that type of midfielders, as we already have Bruno and Pogba, we need to have someone who is good in build up play instead.

 

[Nevilles.Wear.Prada]

There's no top manager in the world that would stick with them week in week out for close to 3 seasons now.

They offer nothing on the ball.

The only way to win anything with them is to go direct and just bypass them in attack and let them sit and shield the back 4.

Problem with that is, that leaves us with just 4 players to attack. Ole seem to think defending in numbers in midfield will provide cover. Top sides have one dmc and that extra midfielder links everywhere and now opposition worry about it. That alters entire game structure. These two offers nothing in attack, nearly headless in defence, shoot poorly and misplaced simple passes. We end up busy nullfying their midfielders instead of playing our own game. It's very low level mistake. We have the resources to bring the game to them. Yet here we are. Every game. 3 seasons now. Come on

 

[Litch]

Im saying just in terms of Central midfield in the league where would McFred be.

I am standing by around 15th place. I listed the teams I felt they were better than.



Its not even really the elite CMs in the league anymore.

Wolves with Neves and Moutino is better
Southampton with Romelu and JWP
Everton with Alan and Doucore

Better, based on what? It's too subjective and too many viables. They don't have the pressure of the shirt or the same level of exception. There is good reason why those players play for those clubs otherwise they would. Romeu couldn't hack it at Chelsea.

I'd have Van de Beek playing in a more advanced role and either of McTominay or Fred dropping a bit deeper. Playing a double pivot against the likes Aston Villa, with all due respect to them and other middling Premier League sides, is overkill. Varane and Maguire are more than good enough to cope with what these sides have to offer attacking-wise.

Not many clubs can play that system without a genuinely CDM 6. In world football, only 3 or 4 players can proven at the highest level.

 

[RUCK4444]

It’s our most solid midfield pairing but I believe we should be playing Pogba there and take the risks.

Id risk Pogba - Fred as a pair in the next game and see how we get on.

We need that natural winger off the left in Rashford. Let’s push up from the back and have Fred’s energy to help sweep up aside Pogba.

I guarantee it will be an improvement on what we saw today from McFred.

 

[koop]

Matic > Fred.
McTominay seems like a shell of his former self coming back from injury. Before he was solid for us.
At this point I'd just stick VDB instead of Fred and see how it goes.
I'd prefer Pogba in the CM role orchestrating the attack with long balls, cause at the moment hes useless in that CAM/LW role Ole got him in.
Either way we need to offload Fred + Matic and get in a worldclass CDM.

 

[laughtersassassin]

It's an awful duo surviving on the basis it helped a poor team do well against the top 6 two years ago .

It wasn't good last year despite us coming second.

It sets us out it be bad with the ball because well they aren't very good on the ball

 

[Ekeke]

It’s our most solid midfield pairing but I believe we should be playing Pogba there and take the risks.

Id risk Pogba - Fred as a pair in the next game and see how we get on.

We need that natural winger off the left in Rashford. Let’s push up from the back and have Fred’s energy to help sweep up aside Pogba.

I guarantee it will be an improvement on what we saw today from McFred.

Its also our lowest potential yield though. When they do well, they arent as good as if Pogba and Van De Beek did well together for example even though its happened far more often than the latter.

One of the reasons for that is familiarity. We constantly play McTominay and Fred and the other partnership we've seen a lot is Pogba and Matic. We know what we can get from them. And its not of the standard we need to get to the next level and be a true contender for the title

Fred and Pogba we've played a bit less, but still plenty of games and enough to see what they do together. And combinations with Van De Beek we havent seen enough to know what to expect from it on a good day because he rarely gets a chance next to anyone and doesnt get the chance to build any familiarity and improve consistency based on it.

For me the clear solution is give VDB the chances to get familiar and if he doesn't do the job any better than Fred and McTominay are, sell him on in the summer and clear the way for someone else to do it. And Fred with him

 

[gajender]

I'm told they offer protection but they don't do it anymore and when it comes to building attacks... The less said, the better.
Something has got to give, no other top teams regularly plays 2 CMs as average as them

They actually never did not to the extent some here want you to believe our points tally and performances wouldn't have been any worse if Ole had shown bravery and played Pogba regularly there or for that matter any other combination .

They are just mediocre and have no business starting regularly for a Top Club .

 

[kouroux]

They actually never did not to the extent some here want you to believe our points tally and performances wouldn't have been any worse if Ole had shown bravery and played Pogba regularly there or for that matter any other combination .

They are just mediocre and have no business starting regularly for a Top Club .

I can only agree. They don't offer a lot of protection and it's supposed to be their forte

 

[Fredo]

Nowhere near the quality required in midfield to make the team complete.

We have amazing talent in the front and at the back, but the anchor is just too weak, I don't see Fred/McTominay starting for City/Chelsea/Liverpool/Tottenham, we should have solved this issue once and for all this summer.

 

[RUCK4444]

Its also our lowest potential yield though. When they do well, they arent as good as if Pogba and Van De Beek did well together for example even though its happened far more often than the latter.

One of the reasons for that is familiarity. We constantly play McTominay and Fred and the other partnership we've seen a lot is Pogba and Matic. We know what we can get from them. And its not of the standard we need to get to the next level and be a true contender for the title

Fred and Pogba we've played a bit less, but still plenty of games and enough to see what they do together. And combinations with Van De Beek we havent seen enough to know what to expect from it on a good day because he rarely gets a chance next to anyone and doesnt get the chance to build any familiarity and improve consistency based on it.

For me the clear solution is give VDB the chances to get familiar and if he doesn't do the job any better than Fred and McTominay are, sell him on in the summer and clear the way for someone else to do it. And Fred with him

Yeah I agree McFred is the lowest potential yield, they get game time though becuase they’ve proven to be the best screen defensively, when they aren’t both 100% though you get games like today where they are neither good enough defensively or attacking wise (the latter is a permanent issue.)

It comes back to lacking a true DM other than Matic who doesn’t seemingly have the legs left to play there every game.

The risk with VDB and Pogba is whether VDB is defensively capable enough to cover for Pogba, which is very much needed in a Pogba midfield partner. VDB in my opinion is more of a natural 10 than a 6. I’d like to see more of him but when you have sections calling for the managers head every time we drop points I can understand sticking with his trusted players in what is a problem area of the team.

I said previously, an elite level DM would have transformed this team even more than the three signings we did make collectively.

 

[eire-red]

Manager has no excuse. Spent £70m on a right winger, then decides he doesn’t want to use him. Why not buy a CM who would automatically start? So dumb we have about 8 players for 3 positions upfront. Plus a manager insistent on playing one of our CM on the wing, and not using another one at all. Ole is 100% to blame for this situation.

Agreed. The selection is just all over the shop. All that money spent and we have such an average midfield.. It's hard to take. And the talk will be about what we still need.

 

[Lukinho]

This is again on Ole. He keeps playing them. We have Matic, Donny, Pogba for midfield. But he still plays McFred. He spent 74 Million on Sancho to not use him and because of McFred. He loves them. This is just one of the reasons he has to go. I always was behind Ole but enough is enough

 

[Isotope]

The failure to get away from McFred is squarely on Ole. Presidents have been impeached for less than this.

 

[Kostov]

Fred and McT with how average to awful on the ball they are, would have been much easier to swallow if they were at least good enough and consistent in their defensive game. They don't even do that properly.

 

[Green_Red]

VDB has to get a run in the team. You can't have players putting in the types of displays Fred put in and be undroppable.

 

[Green_Red]

Play mediocre players expect mediocre results. Douglas Luiz showed today that hes better than Fred

Competition for international spot. Another lost opportunity for Fred to show why he should be considered for the 6, this time at international level, last week he lost that battle against Rice who is considered his potential replacement for us. Not doing himself any favours at the minute.

 

[Tomuś]

Maybe McTominay improves with time but as of now I think I can't stand him even more than Fred who's at least showing for the ball.

Wouldn't however put all the blame on them. Our defence and attack have both been as rubbish this season but get some sort of leniency because 'McFred'.

 

[Andersonson]

We had almost 30 shots....the results are not on them alone.

 

[Ralph1386]

VDB has to get a run in the team. You can't have players putting in the types of displays Fred put in and be undroppable.

The problem is that even if you throw VDB or anyone else in there at the moment , the team is not well-drilled and the players don’t seem to know what to do. Not sure how VDB can improve us without a proper structure and having to rely on individual improvisation.

 

[Ekeke]

Yeah I agree McFred is the lowest potential yield, they get game time though becuase they’ve proven to be the best screen defensively, when they aren’t both 100% though you get games like today where they are neither good enough defensively or attacking wise (the latter is a permanent issue.)

It comes back to lacking a true DM other than Matic who doesn’t seemingly have the legs left to play there every game.

The risk with VDB and Pogba is whether VDB is defensively capable enough to cover for Pogba, which is very much needed in a Pogba midfield partner. VDB in my opinion is more of a natural 10 than a 6. I’d like to see more of him but when you have sections calling for the managers head every time we drop points I can understand sticking with his trusted players in what is a problem area of the team.

I said previously, an elite level DM would have transformed this team even more than the three signings we did make collectively.

At this point I'm willing to say "Well f it, none of our options screen the defence very well so if we put Pogba and VDB next to each other at least they'll help going forward and we can outscore the goals we concede" which is obviously not what I believe in long term, but with the players we have right now I don't think its worse than what we saw today

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

I’d like to see a Donny and McTominay midfield pairing given a go, I think it would offer more going forward with Donny being a better passer than Fred and is also better technically which helps with our ball retention which was shocking today. Not to mention it would give us a goal threat from both our CM’s as the less said about Fred’s shooting the better.

 

[Ekeke]

We had almost 30 shots....the results are not on them alone.

13 were blocked and 11 off target, which suggests they werent exactly the best chances to shoot and it was more a case of desperate pot shots because we couldnt break down the defence properly, which is what you'd want plenty of help from the midfield

 

[Andersonson]

13 were blocked and 11 off target, which suggests they werent exactly the best chances to shoot and it was more a case of desperate pot shots because we couldnt break down the defence properly, which is what you'd want plenty of help from the midfield

You watched the game I presume. If crosses or if Greenwood took better choices we would've had big big chances.

And you can't deny that and that's not on McFred

 

[Devil may care]

Neither are good enough for a club with aspirations of winning the PL and CL, and given there's nothing we can do right now to truly fix the issue I'd try Van de Beek with McTominay, but as crap as McFred are they aren't as big of an issue as the lack of tactical nous or the lack of cohesion as a result of mediocre coaching.

 

[luke511]

It's a disgrace this combination is still being used vs teams outside the top 6 at home. If the double pivot was the plan all along for this season then the budget should've been used to replace Fred. It doesn't help that the player Solskjaer spunked it all on didn't get a minute today. Just bizarre.

 

[Adnan]

The problem is that even if you throw VDB or anyone else in there at the moment , the team is not well-drilled and the players don’t seem to know what to do. Not sure how VDB can improve us without a proper structure and having to rely on individual improvisation.

This.

I'm not sure Ole knows how to structure a midfield which is conducive to possession play. We know from his own words that he isn't someone who under takes the coaching because he doesn't consider the coaching side to be a aspect he's good at. Which for me is a issue because a manager/head coach should be the teacher on the training ground. I'm sure people will point to Fergie delegating duties but that was way after he'd already been a teacher on the training ground.

 

[Ralph1386]

It doesn't help that the player Solskjaer spunked it all on didn't get a minute today. Just bizarre.

I really hope that Sancho doesn’t turn into another VDB, meaning: a player who strived well under a proper system/structure and whose qualities are lost here because we have no proper system or structure.

 

[HailtotheKing]

I echo your sentiments exactly but today I thought Fred was the better of the two. McTominay, just as I said after West Ham last week, doesn't look match fit and looked absolutely terrible today. But as to why we lost today is completely on the manager: playing a double pivot against Villa at home when you have Varane and Maguire at centre half is mind-boggling.

Totally agree. Fred was way better than McTominay today. Fred continuously got his foot in and broke up play and he even played a good through ball. It we didn’t need the two em today and we don’t most days tbh. We need to try Donny + 1

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I wasn't this worried, even when we had likes of Gibson playing for us, ffs!

 

[LawCharltonBest]

They aren’t good enough but they’re all we have

We should be urgently signing a DM in January but we won’t

 

[gza the genius]

They've had very good games against top opposition and I think Ole is holding on to that. I think they also are not good enough individually so he thinks he has to play both. When they're in this sort of form it seems insane to keep trying it though, especially when it involves leaving Sancho, Cavani and potentially one of Rashford/Greenwood when Rashford is back.