The Modern Draft - Semi Finals 2 - Theon vs MJJ

[antohan]

Speaking from a "real world" prospective, I highly doubt Baines will have a better time against Robben. Pique is also completely out of depth here(not as much as Albiol of course) and I don't think Pique is the right partner for Terry.
I actually don't think Ronaldinho should be Theon's next pick, although he'll probably go for it, with both Albiol & Khedira much more urgent to be upgraded than Ronaldinho. If there's one reinforcement than I'd suggest getting Lahm who might be perfect for @Theon really, replace Khedira than you've got Lahm on the RCM role - better defending than Khedira, more cover for Albiol who will really drop to RCB role, in which he won't be bad with two other CBs and Lahm coming to cover as RB, plus it will allow A.Cole much more freedom going forward, and demand less from Robben.
I don't see Alexis as an issue to the final, and one of the main reasons I voted against MJJ(& Isotope for that matter) was the lack of attention they've put in their defense.


something like this @Theon @Annahnomoss

When did Lahm become a GOAT JOS? Lahm is no better than Khedira there. In fact, there's absolutely nothing wrong with Khedira or that midfield unit.

Albiol is wrong, and that's about it.

Inclined to agree on Goofy though. He is the best in the draft and Theon has Ibra performing as the draft Golden Ball. Put the two together and you may lose your cake, let alone eat it.

Also, Pique is definitely not out of his depth. How can he be out of his depth when in this pool he has won more for club and country than any of the players he faces here (and regularly IRL).

Too many extreme "shiny player collecting" statements there Viva.

 

[antohan]

BTW, when I say I don't like Sanchez left it's mostly that I prefer him right. The overall balance is right though with Ibra and Robben starring. The third man there needs to be a teamplayer that understands and accepts this, while also being able to pull his weight. Sanchez fits the bill to a T in that sense.

 

[Theon]

Hey guys, I'm back now so I apologise for any delay! Sorry I couldn't be around for this MJJ and thank you for helping Annah

Torres' record vs Vidic wasn't really the emphatic blowout that is often suggested. There's some good stuff on it in this thread:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-torres-vs-united-myth.328474/

with the key point being that as of May 2011 he'd scored 3 times against Utd in 10 appearances.

No doubt he had the skill set to give Vidic problems and he did so spectcularly on occasion, but it was hardly the case every time they played.

Nice post man.

I think Vidic is the best central defender in the draft and I would have him over Thiago Silva personally. The issue Vidic has in terms of his legacy is his perceived lack of pace against quick forwards, it's a weakness that gets focused on whereas players like Rio or Silva are seen as more complete without having a comparable issue. In reality Vidic was only exposed on a few occasions against real pace but it has unfortunately led to a distorted perception of his ability and vulnerabilities. At their peak there wasn't much between Ferdinand and Vidic but it's never that way in these drafts.

This video is absolutely insane by the way - a much watch.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Great video @Theon . That tackle at 1.10 .

and I would have him over Thiago Silva personally

I'm pretty sure the vast majority would as well.


Tough luck @MJJ @Skills . Great game @Annahnomoss & Theon.

 

[Theon]

Great video @Theon . That tackle at 1.10 .

I love the bit at 3.30 - 3.44

 

[harms]

Finally convinced myself to vote for @Theon, but the poll was closed already. Well, he won anyway.

Vidic - Silva are just too good

 

[Annahnomoss]

Now as I am relieved from draft duty I can speak with no bias, not that I on purposely would have done differently whether or not it was my team.

Vidic and Silva are way too good. The best CB pairing in the draft with Cole being the best LB as well the only one you could add to it. As good as Pique/Terry would be together they seem like a modern top pairing. Silva and Vidic seem like a pairing you would talk about for ever pretty much like Rio and Vidic.

There aren't a lot of players who are as similar as Rio and Silva, so there is basically no question at all whether or not they'd work together.

Really good job Theon with this team. It isn't common that pretty much every player looks as if the team is based on him alone. Zlatan has the perfect team, Robben/Sanchez has the perfect team, Sneijder as well and the defense I would claim has it too.

Thiago has the passing range to rack up some great second assists over a season, definite world beater in possession. The type of cross ball pass that Smalling just started making is the typical Silva pass. Vidic for me is the best defender in the draft.

I rank him as high or possibly higher than Rio, of course in terms of Rio as a ballplaying one and Vidic as a stopper.

 

[Annahnomoss]

It was very easy to talk positive about Theon. I've not spoken positively about my own teams when I have thought I'd be losing but Theon has such a magnificent team. The best team I've seen him with for the draft that is being played.

I love that video of Vidic, for me the only thing that ever had a negative mark on his record was the Torres games and those like Patty showed wasn't that prominent.

Top defender, period.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Now as I am relieved from draft duty

Good to know .

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Cheers for the brilliant post.

I've always stated the same, and when Vidic had a poor game it was often due to us wanting to dominate games by playing a higher line and taking the initiative. Torres off the ball runs were largely dependent on his excellent pace and having big bunks of space to run in to behind the defense. Not the intelligent movement that you need to find space in a match like this with a packed area against great defenders.

His peak isn't really three years at the same level, his 2008-09 wasn't very impressive as a goalscorer and his record for the national team wasn't world class either.


Spain 2007-08 - 6 games - 1 goal
Liverpool 2007-08 - 46 games - 33 goals
Spain 2008-09 - 13 games - 3 goals
Liverpool 2008-09 - 38 games - 17 goals
Spain 2009 - 13 games - 5 goals
2009-10 - 32 games - 22 goals
Spain 2010 - 11 games - 3 goals

Goals per match ratio in his 3 year peak; 159 games - 84 goals = 0.52 goals per game

That is basically what Alexis Sanchez averages as well, Robben tops it and Ibrahimovic of course thwarts the others completely in that regard. 0.85 goals per game at club level since 2012 and 1.0 goals per game for the national team in the same time period. Making him the top scorer internationally since 2012 in terms of goals per game ratios, ahead of Messi/Ronaldo/Neymar etc.

Torres scored just 12 goals in Liverpool peak in 30 CL games(0.4 goals per game), compared to Ibras 15 goals in 22 matches(0.68 goals per game) for PSG. This of course while winning the assist league in the CL 2012-13.

I am not sure whether or not Ibrahimovic will score in this match up - but he still has the playmaking ability to equal Messi's assists last year and win the CL assist league the year before that. If Torres isn't scoring it is a much bigger issues.

Hey guys, I'm back now so I apologise for any delay! Sorry I couldn't be around for this MJJ and thank you for helping Annah



Nice post man.

I think Vidic is the best central defender in the draft and I would have him over Thiago Silva personally. The issue Vidic has in terms of his legacy is his perceived lack of pace against quick forwards, it's a weakness that gets focused on whereas players like Rio or Silva are seen as more complete without having a comparable issue. In reality Vidic was only exposed on a few occasions against real pace but it has unfortunately led to a distorted perception of his ability and vulnerabilities. At their peak there wasn't much between Ferdinand and Vidic but it's never that way in these drafts.

This video is absolutely insane by the way - a much watch.

Cheers lads. Brilliant Vidic video Theon. He was a colossal defender, and the manner in which he's been underrated suggests that we sometimes get too fixated on box-ticking attributes rather than just recognising the sheer quality of a player.

Interesting Torres stats Annah - I said in the drafting stage that I rated Villa higher than him (and not just because I picked Villa!), and those stats also seem to lend some credence to that opinion, particuarly the CL ones.

 

[Joga Bonito]

When did Lahm become a GOAT JOS?

JOS?

Interesting Torres stats Annah - I said in the drafting stage that I rated Villa higher than him (and not just because I picked Villa!), and those stats also seem to lend some credence to that opinion, particuarly the CL ones.

Torres was the more explosive and exciting striker but Villa is comfortably better than him imo. He was more well-rounded with better technique, creativity and link-up play (even had the most assists in the la liga 06/07 season). Villa also possessed more incisive and intelligent movement in combination with better predatory instincts, if you will. Torres on the other hand was more direct and a pacier threat (not that Villa was a slouch by any means) but Villa is the better striker when you take everything into account.

 

[harms]

JOS?

John O'Shea

 

[Joga Bonito]

John O'Shea

Oh ok .

 

[Annahnomoss]

JOS?



Torres was the more explosive and exciting striker but Villa is comfortably better than him imo. He was more well-rounded with better technique, creativity and link-up play (even had the most assists in the la liga 06/07 season). Villa also possessed more incisive and intelligent movement in combination with better predatory instincts, if you will. Torres on the other hand was more direct and a pacier threat (not that Villa was a slouch by any means) but Villa is the better striker when you take everything into account.

Torres, like Owen, were immense strikers that would win you matches with their individual abilities - but just if the opponents let them.

As soon as Owen or Torres played against a team that weren't trying to dominate them, that weren't letting them attack in space then you got the results they got as goalscorers. The type of strikers to excel when the team was a goal up as well, and their impressive displays on the counters had you rate them very highly.

That is why I really wanted to see a team based around Kaka-Torres, it can be really world class if you can force the opponent to take initiate. I said it in the first round, but I think a draft like this would have been excellent for that.

Great performances in the draft though, could have gone either way really here.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Torres, like Owen, were immense strikers that would win you matches with their individual abilities - but just if the opponents let them.

As soon as Owen or Torres played against a team that weren't trying to dominate them, that weren't letting them attack in space then you got the results they got as goalscorers. The type of strikers to excel when the team was a goal up as well, and their impressive displays on the counters had you rate them very highly.

That is why I really wanted to see a team based around Kaka-Torres, it can be really world class if you can force the opponent to take initiate. I said it in the first round, but I think a draft like this would have been excellent for that.

Great performances in the draft though, could have gone either way really here.

Yeah agreed. They are the type of strikers who, with the right set-up and circumstances, could singlehandedly decided the tightest of matches. However, they are easier to contain than more well-rounded and less explosive strikers such as Villa, Ibra and Rooney etc. I wasn't trying to downplay that prototype of strikers or Torres here though, just felt that Villa is a league or two ahead of Torres as an individual and is probably the best striker in the draft alongside Eto'o imo.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Yeah agreed. They are the type of strikers who, with the right set-up and circumstances, could singlehandedly decided the tightest of matches. However, they are easier to contain than more well-rounded and less explosive strikers such as Villa, Ibra and Rooney etc. I wasn't trying to downplay that prototype of strikers or Torres here though, just felt that Villa is a league or two ahead of Torres as an individual and is probably the best striker in the draft alongside Eto'o imo.

The following is summary of these players best three consecutive years, a three year peak. All these includes performances for the national team as well.

Eto'o
2008-09 - 39 goals and 6 assists in 49 games
2007-08 - 20 goals and 3 assists in 37 games
2006-07 - 17 goals and 11 assists in 28 games

Goals per game ratio: 0.73
Assists per game ratio: 0.19
Points per game ratio: 0.92

David Villa
Including his NT apps -
2009-10 - 39 goals and 6 assists in 52 games
2008-09 - 49 goals and 8 assists in 57 games
2007-08 - 25 goals and 6 assists in 44 games

Goals per game ratio: 0.73
Assists per game ratio: 0.1~
Points per game: 0.83

Suarez:
2014-15 - 20 goals, 15 assists - 35 games
2013-14 - 47 goals, 15 assists - 57 games
2012-13 - 40 goals, 6 assists - 56 games
2011-12 - 27 goals, 7 assists - 50 games

Goals per game ratio: 0.67
Assists per game ratio: 0.22
Points per game ratio: 0.89

Ibrahimovic:
2013-14 - 50 goals, 14 assists - 54 games
2012-13 - 47 goals, 18 assists - 59 games
2011-12 - 39 goals, 13 assists - 50 games

Goals per game ratio: 0.83
Assists per game ratio: 0.28
Points per game: 1.11

So Ibrahimovic, has the best goals per game ratio, the best assists per game ratio and of course the best points per game ratio.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I do think his stats might have been slightly inflated by him playing in Ligue 1 albeit him still being good in CL which he deserves credit for. Still, his exploits at Inter, Barca and Milan generally had 20+ club goals overall per season which is pretty good. He is an excellent striker ofc and one of the best in the draft but I do think Eto'o and Villa are the best with the rest a fair distance behind. It is certainly a debatable point though.

 

[antohan]

Now as I am relieved from draft duty I can speak with no bias, not that I on purposely would have done differently whether or not it was my team.

Vidic and Silva are way too good. The best CB pairing in the draft with Cole being the best LB as well the only one you could add to it. As good as Pique/Terry would be together they seem like a modern top pairing. Silva and Vidic seem like a pairing you would talk about for ever pretty much like Rio and Vidic.

There aren't a lot of players who are as similar as Rio and Silva, so there is basically no question at all whether or not they'd work together.

Really good job Theon with this team. It isn't common that pretty much every player looks as if the team is based on him alone. Zlatan has the perfect team, Robben/Sanchez has the perfect team, Sneijder as well and the defense I would claim has it too.

Thiago has the passing range to rack up some great second assists over a season, definite world beater in possession. The type of cross ball pass that Smalling just started making is the typical Silva pass. Vidic for me is the best defender in the draft.

I rank him as high or possibly higher than Rio, of course in terms of Rio as a ballplaying one and Vidic as a stopper.

Agreed. Silva-Vidic would be one for the ages, with Silva possibly better than Rio as the partner.

For all the bias for complete/flawless ballplaying CBs, Vidic stands out more among stoppers than anyone does as the ball-playing partner. There are those who are complete and good at a lot of things, but with Vidic you get truly formidable strengths.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I do think his stats might have been slightly inflated by him playing in Ligue 1 albeit him still being good in CL which he deserves credit for. Still, his exploits at Inter, Barca and Milan generally had 20+ club goals overall per season which is pretty good. He is an excellent striker ofc and one of the best in the draft but I do think Eto'o and Villa are the best with the rest a fair distance behind. It is certainly a debatable point though.

While that is true - he has a 1:1 goal ratio for his national team as well which is comparable to playing for say Leicester and still being the top scorer in the world. Sweden are ranked 45th in the world and generally only play teams either at or around their level or above their level.

Someone like Villa had the same goal output but playing with the worlds best national team, one of the best ever even. Villa's Valencia statistics deserves all the love they can get though. Eto'o has produced his statistics playing with Ronaldinho/Giuly/Messi/Xavi/Iniesta in a team that scored and dominated every match of the season from day 1 until the end.

Statistics are just statistics
1. If you play for a top team they are clearly polluted as you are bound to score more goals.
2 . If you play in a league where your team scores and dominates more in comparison then you're bound to score more goals.
3. if the quality of the teams you play are in general worse, you will be able to be more dominant.

Unless someone has seriously polluted statistics from fitting in to all criteria it isn't something to consider really. You can go back and forth between players all day with these things in mind. If you play for a team like Barcelona who score 150 goals in one season because their players are so superior in every position and as a team then it isn't too impressive to bang in a high amount of goals.

PSG scored 69 goals in the league 2012-13, 84 in 2013-14. They won the league with 12 points in 2012-13 with 83 points - compared to United who had 89 points and won the league with 11 points. United scored 86 goals in the league that year, more than PSG has ever done with Zlatan here.

PSG scored 84 goals last year, 20 less than City pretty much. PSG won the league at 89 points vs Monaco at 80, City had 86 points.

I'd say scoring a goal for Barcelona in their peak when they averaged 80% possession against the smallest teams and you had Iniesta-Xavi and Messi with you would be a lot easier than scoring with PSG.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Agreed. Silva-Vidic would be one for the ages, with Silva possibly better than Rio as the partner.

For all the bias for complete/flawless ballplaying CBs, Vidic stands out more among stoppers than anyone does as the ball-playing partner. There are those who are complete and good at a lot of things, but with Vidic you get truly formidable strengths.

I agree. I've said it before but for me there is nothing separating Rio and Vidic in terms of the level they reached. Obviously Vidic was a stopper and Rio was a ball playing defender and people who aren't too familiar with the terms often say that Rio was better because he was more complete - which is backwards.

If Vidic was more complete he wouldn't be playing as a stopper next to Rio, like you say it isn't about how complete players are but rather how strong their biggest strengths are and a complementary partnership.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Fair enough @Annahnomoss , some excellent points there

I'd say scoring a goal for Barcelona in their peak when they averaged 80% possession against the smallest teams and you had Iniesta-Xavi and Messi with you would be a lot easier than scoring with PSG

I'd disagree with this bit though as I believe the poorer general quality of the Ligue 1 more than compensates for the dominance of Barca in la liga when determining the 'difficulty' of a goal but like you said, the significance of stats can be bent to fit one's agenda and others could agree with your viewpoint. Btw do you rate him higher than Eto'o and Villa or on par with them?

 

[Annahnomoss]

Fair enough @Annahnomoss , some excellent points there


I'd disagree with this bit though as I believe the poorer general quality of the Ligue 1 more than compensates for the dominance of Barca in la liga when determining the 'difficulty' of a goal but like you said stats can be bent to fit one's agenda. Btw do you rate him higher than Eto'o and Villa or on par with them?

I think it is difficult to rate players who are so even when their styles are so different, for each different team with its setups it would be a different choice. For every opponent as well and with that in mind I think Eto'o is the best option for a draft, as he would be able to face a lot more opponents and fit more teams without losing his level. That said I think in a game that perfectly suits Villa, he'll be better than Eto'o and so forth.

I wouldn't want to compare the playmaking strikers especially with a pure goalscorer like Villa or a complete striker like Eto'o. It is equally right/wrong to compare the playmaking strikers to the number 10's in that case.

Cavani is a world class "complete striker", hard-worker and excellent at making runs out wide can't at all play well in PSG's setup. Eto'o and Villa would be terrible options in such a setup as well but they don't even have a fair chance as it isn't their role at all.

Even rating the players in one of these categories is really damn difficult. As sure as people tend to be that X is number 1 and Y is number 34 and Z is the 86th best striker I don't buy too much into it. I think it is quite easy to establish some different tiers/groups though like the fact that Messi or Luiz Ronaldo are simply better than Ibrahimovic, Eto'o or Villa.

Ibrahimovic covered 96 metres per minute in average in this and the last CL, 7 metres more per minute than Messi last year and more than him again this year. 10 metres more per minute than Ibrahimovic you find Aguero, Diego Costa, Ronaldo.