The Modern Draft - Semi Finals 2 - Theon vs MJJ

[Annahnomoss]

That's a fair point.

On a different note, I have a problem with both Kaka and Sneijder. Dunno what it is, precisely. I feel they're both rated...wrongly in one way or the other. And neither of them are personal favourites of mine, to be brutally honest.

Balances out, though - in terms of voting for A or B. I don't really like either of 'em - but your point is valid: I do agree that Sneijder is more capable of putting in a shift of sorts. At least when he's arsed. Which, I suppose, we have to assume that he is.

I think he would be to be honest. If this was a supposed league match then it would be a damn good question, especially the worse the opponents are. But in his peak he was part of team of the tournament in Euro '08 - in 09-10 he was part in team of the year in Europe after bringing Inter to the CL final and being the fans MOTM there as well - and then in the 2010 WC he was the MOTM in 4 matches and was part of the team of the tournament and got the Bronze Boot and Silver ball.

I don't like Sneijder either to be honest(This is Theon's team) but he's much more of a central midfielder and Kaka is almost a second striker. He's a lot more gritty and considering Ronaldinho/Hazard are already "lazy wingers" - Kaka being a second striker is a weakness and not a good thing.

It is quite easy to see me winning the ball back regularly, while I believe he will have a tough time putting down the defensive effort to get back in position after he loses it. Hazard/Kaka/Ronaldinho/Torres doesn't scream positional discipline and work rate.

 

[PedroMendez]

MJJ has a classic counterattacking side. His back4 is well protected by two midfielders who are great for this job, while Kaka, Ronaldinho and Torres are perfect on the counter. It’s a bit oldschool in the sense, that he doesn’t have 11 players running both ways, but his setup is still very solid. Hazard in this role on the right is controversial but overall there is no obvious weakness.

Theon is more flexible in his tactics. His team can play on the counter, but could also dominate possession. Robben, Ibra and Sanchez with Sneijder behind them would be a terrific attack, which can score against anyone. Vidic and Silva would be a great partnership and Cole is a fantastic fullback. Albiol might be the weakest link, but I don’t think that he is the game deciding factor.

What makes me wonder is a midfield three of Khedira, Schweinsteiger and Sneijder. I don’t think that it’s as good as it looks. Germany (in a 4231) was always very prone to counterattacks, because Khedira played a lot more offensive than you´d expect. They allowed the opposition to get behind the midfield and to run at an unprotected back4 on a regular basis. That was a constant disaster and MJJ has almost the perfect team to expose this weakness. Kaka could be the game winner.

The shift to a more pragmatic and conventional 433 was the crucial change, that allowed Germany to win the WC. I am not sure if sneijder could do that job. I am still undecided if Theon has the necessary stability or if he would be exposed over and over again. There is only a fine line between both scenarios.

 

[Solius]

Nah, only takes a minute and I'm usually online anyway, or if not someone else is.

Just don't rely on Solius.

I can't make polls in the mains tbf.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

@Edgar Allan Pillow I don't like the whole withdraw vote option, seems like many people opt to pick it as some sort of a "draw"

 

[Annahnomoss]

You need an outlet up front, someone with pace which you won't have here if robben is defending. Unless he is running from deep which really isn't the best strategy.

The robben-baines bit is hyperbole though. Let me do the same. I will back Ronaldinho to have the advantage no matter if he is being triple marked by Silva vidic and albiol.

He only has to be as deep as Baines is and not even that - Khedira and Albiol will be helping out and if Baines has the ball at the corner flag then my entire team would of course has moved towards your right side.

The same equation means that if Baines cross is unsuccessful or he loses the ball Robben is completely free in space to attack on the counter.

The difference between Ronaldinho there, is that Albiol doesn't thrive when having a key role offensively. Albiol is at his best when defending and having a more passive role offensively which means he will be in a strong position against Ronaldinho at least.

You can have Baines in a defensive role as well - but that is his weakness as a full back and he's worse in purely defensive terms than Albiol. Robben/Ronaldinho would be very equal in this scenario - considering the rest of the defense I would consider Robben more likely to create something there.

Ronaldinho-Kaka-Hazard will be very offensive when you have the ball and it is hard to see all of them thrive together. Three players who all are at their best as ball carriers so the benefit of all three of them won't be too great.

Torres is a good fit - but at the same time his hold up play will probably mean some lost balls here and there like it did for Spain. He had a very hard time for Spain who almost always faced teams who defended deep against them.

When he lost his pace his hold up was very exposed for Chelsea too.

 

[Balu]

What makes me wonder is a midfield three of Khedira, Schweinsteiger and Sneijder. I don’t think that it’s as good as it looks. Germany (in a 4231) was always very prone to counterattacks, because Khedira played a lot more offensive than you´d expect. They allowed the opposition to get behind the midfield and to run at an unprotected back4 on a regular basis. That was a constant disaster and MJJ has almost the perfect team to expose this weakness. Kaka could be the game winner.

The shift to a more pragmatic and conventional 433 was the crucial change, that allowed Germany to win the WC. I am not sure if sneijder could do that job. I am still undecided if Theon has the necessary stability or if he would be exposed over and over again. There is only a fine line between both scenarios.

I don't really agree with that. In our more deep sitting counterattacking set-up in 2010, the Schweinsteiger - Khedira partnership worked without problems and gave us great defensive stability. Only once we shifted to more of possession style with a crazy high line, we needed that 3rd midfielder, but 1. that's not really how Theon/Annah want to play and 2. I actually believe that Sneijder could play Kroos' role from 2014.

 

[The Stain]

@Edgar Allan Pillow I don't like the whole withdraw vote option, seems like many people opt to pick it as some sort of a "draw"

I do. Should just call it draw instead of withdraw vote, though.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I can't make polls in the mains tbf.

I find this - easily - more shocking than anything in this thread. The obvious question being what that massive ginger bush is good for, if not for creating threads?

 

[Solius]

I find this - easily - more shocking than anything in this thread. The obvious question being what that massive ginger bush is good for, if not for creating threads?

I'm not ginger, just to clarify. Nobody wants to be slandered like that.

 

[MJJ]

He only has to be as deep as Baines is and not even that - Khedira and Albiol will be helping out and if Baines has the ball at the corner flag then my entire team would of course has moved towards your right side.

The same equation means that if Baines cross is unsuccessful or he loses the ball Robben is completely free in space to attack on the counter.

The difference between Ronaldinho there, is that Albiol doesn't thrive when having a key role offensively. Albiol is at his best when defending and having a more passive role offensively which means he will be in a strong position against Ronaldinho at least.

You can have Baines in a defensive role as well - but that is his weakness as a full back and he's worse in purely defensive terms than Albiol. Robben/Ronaldinho would be very equal in this scenario - considering the rest of the defense I would consider Robben more likely to create something there.

Ronaldinho-Kaka-Hazard will be very offensive when you have the ball and it is hard to see all of them thrive together. Three players who all are at their best as ball carriers so the benefit of all three of them won't be too great.

Torres is a good fit - but at the same time his hold up play will probably mean some lost balls here and there like it did for Spain. He had a very hard time for Spain who almost always faced teams who defended deep against them.

When he lost his pace his hold up was very exposed for Chelsea too.

How is that in any way relevant?

Let me stop with some hyperbole and point out some facts.

• Ibra has never scored or assisted against terry, playing the same role he is here with near much the same quality.
• Torres destroyed vidic when they faced each other.
• Ronaldinho is one of the greatest of all time facing an out of position defender and one who is comfortably the worse player on the pitch.
• Khedira, who is on the right flank, is positionally suspect so will leave space to be exploited.
• Kaka is a much better AM than sneijder, and one of him, hazard, torres and ronaldinho will be running with the ball and beating defenders almost always.
• Terry and Neuer thrive in a deep setup which nullifies robben to a much larger extent than ronaldinho.
• What baines gives up in defense, he more than makes up for in attack.
• Forget torres, kaka running at vidic is going to cause all sorts of issues.
• My midfield is more capable than yours of shutting up shop and giving a platform for my front four.
• Ibra has never really performed in clutch situations and I would prefer torres in a game like this.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I actually believe that Sneijder could play Kroos' role from 2014.

That's what a whole legion of Caf members thought too, during the dizzy days of the Sneijder saga.

I was never convinced myself. But, yeah, he is clearly capable of playing some sort of more CM-ish role (rather than being a pure AM, if you will).

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I'm not ginger, just to clarify. Nobody wants to be slandered like that.

The bush is the truth, you know. You can fake the head - but fakin' the bush is a madman's game.

That said, I believe you. Completely. But your inability to create polls still has to count against you.

 

[Rado_N]

I can't make polls in the mains tbf.

I was only joking but really?

 

[Annahnomoss]

MJJ has a classic counterattacking side. His back4 is well protected by two midfielders who are great for this job, while Kaka, Ronaldinho and Torres are perfect on the counter. It’s a bit oldschool in the sense, that he doesn’t have 11 players running both ways, but his setup is still very solid. Hazard in this role on the right is controversial but overall there is no obvious weakness.

Theon is more flexible in his tactics. His team can play on the counter, but could also dominate possession. Robben, Ibra and Sanchez with Sneijder behind them would be a terrific attack, which can score against anyone. Vidic and Silva would be a great partnership and Cole is a fantastic fullback. Albiol might be the weakest link, but I don’t think that he is the game deciding factor.

What makes me wonder is a midfield three of Khedira, Schweinsteiger and Sneijder. I don’t think that it’s as good as it looks. Germany (in a 4231) was always very prone to counterattacks, because Khedira played a lot more offensive than you´d expect. They allowed the opposition to get behind the midfield and to run at an unprotected back4 on a regular basis. That was a constant disaster and MJJ has almost the perfect team to expose this weakness. Kaka could be the game winner.

The shift to a more pragmatic and conventional 433 was the crucial change, that allowed Germany to win the WC. I am not sure if sneijder could do that job. I am still undecided if Theon has the necessary stability or if he would be exposed over and over again. There is only a fine line between both scenarios.

I agree about Khedira and Schweinsteiger as a combination - with Kroos/Özil - being prone for counter-attacks. But Sneijder is a different story all together - Kroos is nothing in terms of mobility and work rate that Sneijder is and Özil is not worth mentioning as he's a bit of a clown defensively.

Sneijder thrived in that role for Inter - Bayern had 70% of the possession in the final and that is without going in to the semi finals against Barcelona which were similar. Same for the Netherlands against Spain where they had very little possession.

He fitted Mourinho's boring team - he was the Uefa Club midfielder of the year in 2010 - over Iniesta, Xavi, Busqets and so forth. That is obviously typically stupid of Uefa to always give it to the winner - but it shows that he was very important to Mourinho's negative set up.

I still think that MJJ will get opportunities, it is still not ideal by any means but the defensive set up helps further more by the defensive greatness of Cole, keeping Albiol rather passive defensively and Thiago Silva/Vidic with Khedira/Schweinsteiger tracking back.

As much as Khedira could get lost positionally, when he does you know he will has the physicality to track back in an excellent manner.

 

[Solius]

I was only joking but really?

Don't think so.

 

[Annahnomoss]

That's what a whole legion of Caf members thought too, during the dizzy days of the Sneijder saga.

I was never convinced myself. But, yeah, he is clearly capable of playing some sort of more CM-ish role (rather than being a pure AM, if you will).

I didn't want Sneijder at United either, looking back at it I think it was the right decision. That said he did have a very strong three year peak - and especially so an excellent peak in the most important cups of the time.

I think the primary question against him was whether or not he could keep that peak - a bunch of people thought he could keep it up for a few years and another bunch thought he couldn't.

 

[Skills]

Seems like there's some kind of mutiny in team theon with Annahnomoss trying to seize control and the manager being frozen out. Can't be good for moral, don't think the players would respond too well to that.

 

[Skills]

And just to make everyone aware, we'll be playing 'Crank that' by soldier boy at half time in the dressing room.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Seems like there's some kind of mutiny in team theon with Annahnomoss trying to seize control and the manager being frozen out. Can't be good for moral, don't think the players would respond too well to that.

It is that damn Ibrahimovic isn't it?

EDIT: Confirmed, that is me in the blue t-shirt.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I agree about Khedira and Schweinsteiger as a combination - with Kroos/Özil - being prone for counter-attacks. But Sneijder is a different story all together - Kroos is nothing in terms of mobility and work rate that Sneijder is

Will have to seriously disagree with that but I'll save that for later discussions and not derail this thread.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Bah, feck it - I'm making a call, arguably based on personal prejudice more than rational thought (that's what scan voters are supposed to do - right? And I have even bothered to read the write-ups before voting):

1. Theon's (or is it Annah's?) defence is a notch tighter, even given Torres' edge over Vidic, which I do acknowledge, albeit grudgingly.

2. Zlatan will kill this match. I have decided so. He'll link up very well with Robben, who will drift a bit, making that front trio fluid (which is perfectly plausible), and he will grab the winner here. A spectacular finish - with his nose - which will later be scrutinized and suspected of being an instance of sheer luck.

 

[antohan]

Theon has found near perfect settings for his key players, and they will make the difference. I still don't like Sánchez oout left or Albiol on the right, but the latter increasingly looks like a masterstroke. I remember someone suggesting Theon got Maicon, and I would be really worried to see Maicon vs. Ronaldinho tbh.

Conversely, MJJ tends to have players a notch lower in quality throughout the pitch and his true stars aren't as ideally set up (and countered) as Theon's.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Bah, feck it - I'm making a call, arguably based on personal prejudice more than rational thought (that's what scan voters are supposed to do - right? And I have even bothered to read the write-ups before voting):

1. Theon's (or is it Annah's?) defence is a notch tighter, even given Torres' edge over Vidic, which I do acknowledge, albeit grudgingly.

2. Zlatan will kill this match. I have decided so. He'll link up very well with Robben, who will drift a bit, making that front trio fluid (which is perfectly plausible), and he will grab the winner here. A spectacular finish - with his nose - which will later be scrutinized and suspected of being an instance of sheer luck.

Definitely Theon's team but he asked me to set this match up for him. I won't vote but it is all his team when he's back and if he says something that contradicts what I've said it is his team.

I agree with both points.

 

[MTR]

Piszczek and Hazard vs Sanchez is literally no one vs Sanchez when Theon attacks.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Theon has found near perfect settings for his key players, and they will make the difference. I still don't like Sánchez oout left or Albiol on the right, but the latter increasingly looks like a masterstroke. I remember someone suggesting Theon got Maicon, and I would be really worried to see Maicon vs. Ronaldinho tbh.

Conversely, MJJ tends to have players a notch lower in quality throughout the pitch and his true stars aren't as ideally set up (and countered) as Theon's.

Agree. Sanchez on the right is ideal but he has played the slight majority of his matches for Arsenal out left. His statistics per game are more or less the same as well.

On the counter or in direct attacks I would say having Sanchez cutting in on his stronger foot like he does from the left side would be a positive. In attacks longer build up I would also prefer him on the right giving him a slightly easier time to get a cross in especially.


I think Theon got a bit lucky with this match up. Suddenly Albiol looked at home in comparison to how he'd fare against the other two teams IMO.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Ibrahimovic assists. It is worth noting just how many of those assists comes from either him pulling the central defenders out of position - or him finding space between the midfield and defense because they didn't close him down well enough.

Very often to a forward run from the outside too, even if he has a lot more than that to offer.

 

[crappycraperson]

Albiol at right back is ok against Goofy...? Really?

 

[MJJ]

Agree. Sanchez on the right is ideal but he has played the slight majority of his matches for Arsenal out left. His statistics per game are more or less the same as well.

On the counter or in direct attacks I would say having Sanchez cutting in on his stronger foot like he does from the left side would be a positive. In attacks longer build up I would also prefer him on the right giving him a slightly easier time to get a cross in especially.


I think Theon got a bit lucky with this match up. Suddenly Albiol looked at home in comparison to how he'd fare against the other two teams IMO.

No more comments from me.

 

[Joga Bonito]

@Edgar Allan Pillow I don't like the whole withdraw vote option, seems like many people opt to pick it as some sort of a "draw"

No mate, it's just the 4 of us (with the exception of Isotope & OnlySolskjaer) there were/are involved in the semis and can't vote.

 

[Annahnomoss]

No mate, it's just the 4 of us (with the exception of Isotope & OnlySolskjaer) there were/are involved in the semis and can't vote.

I didn't vote in your match up as Theon hit me up with the question to help him out here. It is draft standard so not a big deal with just Iso and OS using the option.

 

[MJJ]

@Theon congratulations! Its a brilliant team, knew you would be unbeatable in this round if you survived the last one

Should have listened to @Skills and @Mani and not go for ronaldinho. But the temptation was too much, sorry guys.

 

[Annahnomoss]

@Theon congratulations! Its a brilliant team, knew you would be unbeatable in this round if you survived the last one

Should have listened to @Skills and @Mani and not go for ronaldinho. But the temptation was too much, sorry guys.

Really wanted to see that team. A team built around Kaka and Torres would have been idyllic to say the least.

 

[Annahnomoss]

 

[The Stain]

A spectacular finish - with his nose

Something like the goal above? Surely it hit his nose

 

[Annahnomoss]

Chester with a spooky prediction.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I think MJJ has the edge here.

As much as I like Vidic, I really have to vote for Torres based on reality. Coupled with Ronaldinho and Kaka I predict Vidic to have a far worse time than what we regretfully saw.

On the other side a defensively solid DM duo is perfect against a false 9. Sneijder as creating CM is ok, but as a unit I have my doubts on Theon attack.

Voted MJJ.

 

[MJJ]

I think MJJ has the edge here.

As much as I like Vidic, I really have to vote for Torres based on reality. Coupled with Ronaldinho and Kaka I predict Vidic to have a far worse time than what we regretfully saw.

On the other side a defensively solid DM duo is perfect against a false 9. Sneijder as creating CM is ok, but as a unit I have my doubts on Theon attack.

Voted MJJ.

. Glad someone atleast takes real world into account.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Speaking from a "real world" prospective, I highly doubt Baines will have a better time against Robben. Pique is also completely out of depth here(not as much as Albiol of course) and I don't think Pique is the right partner for Terry.
I actually don't think Ronaldinho should be Theon's next pick, although he'll probably go for it, with both Albiol & Khedira much more urgent to be upgraded than Ronaldinho. If there's one reinforcement than I'd suggest getting Lahm who might be perfect for @Theon really, replace Khedira than you've got Lahm on the RCM role - better defending than Khedira, more cover for Albiol who will really drop to RCB role, in which he won't be bad with two other CBs and Lahm coming to cover as RB, plus it will allow A.Cole much more freedom going forward, and demand less from Robben.
I don't see Alexis as an issue to the final, and one of the main reasons I voted against MJJ(& Isotope for that matter) was the lack of attention they've put in their defense.


something like this @Theon @Annahnomoss

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Torres' record vs Vidic wasn't really the emphatic blowout that is often suggested. There's some good stuff on it in this thread:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-torres-vs-united-myth.328474/

with the key point being that as of May 2011 he'd scored 3 times against Utd in 10 appearances.

2007-08

Liverpool 0-1 Man Utd (No goals)
Man Utd 3-0 Liverpool (No goals)

2008-09

Man Utd 1-4 Liverpool (1 Goal)

2009-10

Liverpool 2-0 Man Utd (1 Goal)
Man Utd 2-1 Liverpool (1 Goal)

2010-11

Man Utd 3-2 Liverpool (No goals)
Man Utd 1-0 Liverpool (No goals)
Chelsea 2-1 Man Utd (No goals)
Chelsea 0-1 Man Utd (No goals)
Man Utd 2-1 Chelsea (No goals)

3 in 10 is correct, and he's got the better of Vidic for just one of them, somehow he's considered Vidic's nemesis though.

No doubt he had the skill set to give Vidic problems and he did so spectcularly on occasion, but it was hardly the case every time they played.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Torres' record vs Vidic wasn't really the emphatic blowout that is often suggested. There's some good stuff on it in this thread:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-torres-vs-united-myth.328474/

with the key point being that as of May 2011 he'd scored 3 times against Utd in 10 appearances.



No doubt he had the skill set to give Vidic problems and he did so spectcularly on occasion, but it was hardly the case every time they played.

Cheers for the brilliant post.

I've always stated the same, and when Vidic had a poor game it was often due to us wanting to dominate games by playing a higher line and taking the initiative. Torres off the ball runs were largely dependent on his excellent pace and having big bunks of space to run in to behind the defense. Not the intelligent movement that you need to find space in a match like this with a packed area against great defenders.

His peak isn't really three years at the same level, his 2008-09 wasn't very impressive as a goalscorer and his record for the national team wasn't world class either.


Spain 2007-08 - 6 games - 1 goal
Liverpool 2007-08 - 46 games - 33 goals
Spain 2008-09 - 13 games - 3 goals
Liverpool 2008-09 - 38 games - 17 goals
Spain 2009 - 13 games - 5 goals
2009-10 - 32 games - 22 goals
Spain 2010 - 11 games - 3 goals

Goals per match ratio in his 3 year peak; 159 games - 84 goals = 0.52 goals per game

That is basically what Alexis Sanchez averages as well, Robben tops it and Ibrahimovic of course thwarts the others completely in that regard. 0.85 goals per game at club level since 2012 and 1.0 goals per game for the national team in the same time period. Making him the top scorer internationally since 2012 in terms of goals per game ratios, ahead of Messi/Ronaldo/Neymar etc.

Torres scored just 12 goals in Liverpool peak in 30 CL games(0.4 goals per game), compared to Ibras 15 goals in 22 matches(0.68 goals per game) for PSG. This of course while winning the assist league in the CL 2012-13.

I am not sure whether or not Ibrahimovic will score in this match up - but he still has the playmaking ability to equal Messi's assists last year and win the CL assist league the year before that. If Torres isn't scoring it is a much bigger issues.