There is no hand break, we are structurally shit in the last third.
The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked
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I think it's an atmosphere issue plus Lukaku has been absolutely frighteningly terrible this season. We had 3-4 games where the movement was great and quick, which shows it's possible. It limits us when our only actual striker misses a ton of sitters.
So what you're saying is Mourinho is intentionally allowing a single player to feck up his job because he's afraid of the reaction from the media/fans/whatever?
If Mou is afraid to drop Pogba because of media reaction, he should be fired for that alone.
Anyone thinking sacking Jose will magically make everything ok are kidding themselves and I certainly agree another ill-judged appointment leaves us even further from recovery but the board can't shirk their responsibly to do what needs to be done this season out of fear. If they're still at all capable of making good footballing decisions, which I admit I've had my doubts about for some time, they should back themselves to act now to start putting this mess right. Whether it's putting in place the right manager, a caretaker with limited responsibilities this season while they search for their man, a DoF or other structural changes they are best done without Jose at the club, not while he's kept around because the board are scared of radical change or parting with a few quid (probably six months or so of Alexis's wedge) to pay him off.
I have no idea what his decision making is with Pogba. But that's how I see it. And it's presumably in the hope that he gives a damn and may prove the difference. But it's not exactly an obscure thing, that there is beef there and it's one of the biggest problems..
Bayern Munich are a well run club were the players sacked two managers in the last 7 years. Barcelona and Madrid aren't special cases because of Messi/Cristiano, it was the same with Ronaldinho and Zidane, and all throughout their history. Barcelona players got a member of the board sacked, nevermind managers. When teams do well, the players have all the power, always
And i wasn't talking about Pogba. Was more alluding to the many "player power will destroy the club" posts that have popped up recently.
And no manager can survive having the key figures of his team turning on him. Not unless the club is willing to throw a season away
Why back him?
Why? Even if he manages to turn it around and in all honesty, there is more chance of Utd being relegated than him turning it around.
The football will still be shite, the drama and toxicity isn't going to go away when Pogba, Martial, Valencia and every other 'rebel' player leaves.
Mourinho will just find new players to shite on.
Just remember his comments in preseason, completely shat on the youth team.
These fallouts and meltdowns are part and parcel of Mourinho. We could buy 11 brickwalls and he'd still fall out with the poor feckers.
Under Van Gaal I could understand to an extent why fans stuck by him, with another summer his philosophy could come to life. We hoped that run of games was of what was it come.
There was that chance of the philosophy working for the longterm , as unlikely as it was.
There is nothing to look forward to in 3rd season Mourinho.
Why? Even if he manages to turn it around and in all honesty, there is more chance of Utd being relegated than him turning it around.
The football will still be shite, the drama and toxicity isn't going to go away when Pogba, Martial, Valencia and every other 'rebel' player leaves.
Mourinho will just find new players to shite on.
Just remember his comments in preseason, completely shat on the youth team.
These fallouts and meltdowns are part and parcel of Mourinho. We could buy 11 brickwalls and he'd still fall out with the poor feckers.
Under Van Gaal I could understand to an extent why fans stuck by him, with another summer his philosophy could come to life. We hoped that run of games was of what was it come.
There was that chance of the philosophy working for the longterm , as unlikely as it was.
There is nothing to look forward to in 3rd season Mourinho.
Maybe I've been too programmed by following United since being a kid where SAF was always boss and if a player had a moan he could then promptly f off.
You are not seriously suggesting that we are a Toby Alderweireld away from attacking fluidity? I mean, you may be Jonathan wilson seeing football matches like Matrix Keanu Reeves but I seriously doubt it. We are cumbersome, play as if we have zero synergy, out of form players played in positions because meh etc. Not all those can be fixed with defensive backline and you spend way too much on this thread projecting Pogba as some kind of Sauron with an all seeing eye affecting every player around him.
Yeah but Mou is hardly Sir Alex, with constant point scoring, whinging and throwing others under the bus rarely seen under Sir Alex.
It was the case in the last two seasons too, it has nothing to do with Lukaku's current form, particularly when Lukaku only scored 16 goals in the league. We are just not good at creating chances, not good in the last third, we had a high conversion rate that papered the cracks.
Well put. I am suggesting that with 3 Jose additions he's got a team he's got confidence in. Weed out the 1-2 players that cause the most stir in the dressing room and I'd feel fairly confident. The chances Lukaku has missed this season in almost every game he's played is like watching Stephane Guivarc'h play the World Cup final a thousand times without scoring.
When did SAF fall out with his team's best player? Or players?
(That's not even getting into how SAF was from a different era, one where a bad season was more acceptable as it didn't have the same financial/image consequences of today. SAF had 3 bad seasons since 1992, and those 3 seasons he spent moving on from the class of 92 and rebuilding around Cristiano and Rooney)
It's also the only opportunities created. We rely on very high conversion rate which funnily enough Mourinho mentioned yesterday.
Very few things take me by surprise with United mainly because I spotted the rot long before SAF left. You see, if you cut United's the financial aspect and the PR bullshit we're nowhere near to the top club we portray ourselves to be. We're essentially a two manager's club, a financial juggernaut who constantly struggled to make things work even though we often overpaid more then the rest.
The reason being that we never really invested in building the football side of our club. Look at us, no DOF, no technical director, nothing. It didn't help the fact our best two managers were control freaks
Don't take me wrong, I appreciate those two great men. However their success helped papering up cracks within the club, making United too dependent on having a genius as manager. I also can't help thinking they loved it that way. I mean I can't see Busby overstaying at United or SAF appointing some nobody who got sacked by a random Scottish side as chief scout if we had a top DOF. SAF would certainly had trouble keeping his old boys past their expiry date and would most probably wouldn't be able to have a real say on who should succeed him when he's gone. Clear evidence to that is how SAF used to say that the manager is the most important person at the club. Well, it shouldn't be so especially at a time when managers just pack and leave every couple of years. The result to that is a naive club who tend to overpay players in terms of fees and salaries while getting underpaid whenever it wants to get rid of them. A sucker which horde had beens searching for a final paycheck and deadwood.
Having said that, while I agree with you that things should get sorted, I disagree with you that things won't change with a decent manager around. Actually I think that's the right way to go. You see unlike Busby and SAF, modern managers don't see United as the beginning and the end of their career. Managers tend to have other ambitions in life then living the rest of their lives in sunny Manchester. Hence, I hope that by getting the right type of manager, we'll finally get somebody who can actually persuade the board to grow up and make the necessary changes. Lets face it, such changes benefit everybody. It benefits the club as they bring consistence and efficiency to the football side of things. Such efficiency will also translate in improving our ability to get the manager's transfer targets. That will of course benefit the manager as well. It will also benefit the players in a certain way as deadwood will be shifted quicker, the right players will be signed and the club might step in whenever the manager ask for the ridiculous. Case in point was when Conte asked Juventus to compete with prime Chelsea for Cuadrado.
Worse case scenario would be to get a manager who can motivate our players to give this season a real go. Crazier things had happened. I mean there's no way SAF's last team let alone Leicester would have the necessary talent to be able to win the title. So if they managed then surely we can get to top 4.
Keane, Stam, Beckham, Ruud, Ince. That's a lot of players. Not that the comparison holds. He was one of a kind in an era preceding social media dominancy.
Yes, we're not creating enough, but the quality of chances he's missed is criminal. A clinical finisher and we'd be having a different conversation. I look at him now as a failure in the market. Which is on Jose, of course.
This is the one and only negative aspect of the legacy that the great man has left and it's not even his fault, it's just the way some fans choose to interpret his tenure. This expectation that the way he ran our club could be carbon copied with anybody else is quite honestly absurd. Fergie is incomparable, everything he did, positive and negative, should be read strictly in the context of how he built and reined over the richest and one of the most successful clubs ever in a way that could only be compared to maybe Busby and Shankly and to a lesser extent Wenger. No one else could get away with the mistakes Fergie made or expects the trust and total belief he was afforded.
I've seen wishful thinking and I've seen delusion.
Do you honestly feel that Pogba is the only reason we're in such a mess?
Maybe assumptions there. Basically saying that if Jose cannot do it, then no one can.
Like you yourself lay out, there are a couple of scenarios in which this can turn positive. I believe so myself.
@hn4manunited
The more the merrier, glad you're on board!
It's not about his qualities or LVG's qualities even, it's more about the level of expectation compared to the structure of the club and the quality of the team. People said whoever replaces SAF is taking on a poisoned chalice, well, it's still poisoned. Would Zidane fancy staining his legacy with a 2-3 year stint of winning nothing significant at United (assuming there will be no fundamental changes)?
Congratulations. The lowest IQ comment I've seen in a few weeks. You're welcome to not post here again.
It is completely not a top red thing. I don't think your being totally against Mourinho makes you any less of a supporter, we're not claiming any moral superiority here so let's not go down that road. We just have differing opinions.
Only Stam was in the peak and the rest had to be moved on. I would have gladly suffered any number of players at their peak under Fergie because Fergie is fergie.
He is going absolutely nowhere until we are mathematically done for top 4, in doing so Woodward saves face by not letting him go just months after extending his contract and the Glazers will be satisfied that they can compensate him lower once the no CL clause is activated,we just have to suck it up that we have parasitic owners!!
This is exactly the point I don't understand. Why cling on to something that has a lower ceiling in the best case scenario for we, as a club, should expect? Mourinho is like a restaurant that is expensive, the seats are horrible and the taste is nothing to shout home about, but traditionally, the portions are big and you get really full. The portions are smaller and smaller now. Why would anyone want to invest more time and money when turning it around amounts to nothing more than a passable, albeit filling experience.
What's the point in having several different Mourinho discussion threads? Whether you're Mourinho In or Mourinho Out, the discussion is going to revolve around... Mourinho, in or out?
You see what you are doing? The only reason you focus on these chances is because they are the only ones and Lukaku is the only attacker at the end of chances, that's not normal and it has nothing to do with the back four. I don't even remember hearing this type of strange arguments before, normally people are not bamboozled into thinking that bad attacking play is due to the back four, particularly when we are talking about a team that isn't focused on possession football.
Well it wouldn't be too controversial to describe the rift with Beckham that way.
In general I don't think there's any similarity between Ferguson's man management and Mourinho's though.
I don't see it as a negative at all. He delegated. It's not as if he did everything. But he demanded total loyalty and commitment. Maybe we won't ever see that again at top clubs.
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that if we still act as though we have a team that should be challenging for the Prem title and the CL and if we do not seriously change our decision making structure and expertise we cannot expect any better.
Same. But Fergie was also a pragmatist. Getting that one more year of Ronaldo was invaluable (42 goals).
This is precisely what happened to my local Nandos.
Keane was old and past his best, Beckham and Stam were cogs in the machine, and Ruud was sold because he had Rooney and Cristiano ready to take over. He never lost the dressing room, it always individual players, and eminently replaceable ones within context.
If Pogba is the problem, then it stands to reason that all Mourinho needs to do is either kicking him out of the team, or reach a compromise with him. Yet he's doing neither. He's failing at his job
I'm just saying that an overall team balance is needed to be consistently threatening up front and solid at the back. But we can leave this back-and-forth as you please buddy.
what happened to it?
It is a negative because people failed to understand that his model could only work because he was part of that model. The way he worked needed a very specific of circumstances to yield success. One of those circumstances was the uniqueness of the man himself. Remove him and the other factors such as the footballing environment in the late '80s and early '90s, the way society in general changed and the ever growing size and wealth of footballing clubs and Fergie's model makes no sense at all.
That's not what you said, you said that our main problem was the back four and then used it to justify our poor attacking play. I agree that balance is very important but I simply pointed to the fact that we are bad offensively and that it was a bigger problem, in the end we also need to improve defensively but it's not our biggest issue and it's not the solution to our attacking issues.
You're right about van Nistelrooy, Ince and Keane, but it'd be very harsh to say Beckham was in decline. Agree with your last line though
One of the problems. And yes he needs to figure it out sharpish.
I was disagreeing with you when you say Fergie fell out with players. While Fergie was pragmatic, he was also a very good people manager that even bit part players would die for him. That was because Fergie almost never dumped anyone under the bus. Actually, Fergie is light years from Mou in that aspect. Your reasoning just doesn't make any sense to me.
It started off great, large portions of quality chicken and all the trimmings, but it quickly began to deteriorate. The portions were smaller and the food often overcooked, turned to shite basically.
Just like Jose Mourinho.
Maybe Mourinho could manage there then
On hindsight, I agree with Beckham. He still had a lot to give.
If we are bad defensively we lack balance. If we compensate for it by playing Fellaini as a shield for the back 4 or revert to a back 5 it's because of it. If that limits us going forward then it ties in, does it not. Feel free to disagree. I know what I said.
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