The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked

[Keefy18]

So we had reached a point of giving excuses for Klopp because they sold players before he even arrived. That's a new level of excuses for me. I'm not sure Liverpool fans with their delusions will even descend to this level of excuses.

We don't need to look at Liverpool supporters, we need just look at our own fan base, we've supporters still crying about Ronaldo being sold and being replaced with Obertan and Valencia and it happened nearly a decade ago? 9 years and 4 managers haven't replaced him, nor Giggs or Scholes!

Losing players of that kind of talent obviously has an impact on a teams performance. They lost 3 of their best attackers in 3 years, replaced all 3 for less than half the price and improved their attacking out put.

Fair enough Klopp has yet to win something, but he's not without massive challenges of rebuilding / replacing talent whilst attempting to win silverware. Something Jose hasn't had to contend with yet with get folks (not so much yourself) giving it the auld anti Glazer rhetoric of failing to give funds, hamstringing him in the transfer market and god knows what other lazy cliched nonsense they can find.

Jose has been lazy in his attempts at rebuilding our team, he's hung on to squad players and rewarded them with new contracts, increasing our wage bill exponentially to the point we pay 60m more than City do on wages, only last week our expenses took a 10% increase in the first quarter of 2018 and its a vital factor that is all too often ignored by our fan base when they then expect the board to sign off on 75m transfers for ageing players with a short term life span.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

At this point, I can only laugh at all the same points repeated again and again which are so far from reality and close to fantasy.

Where is the fantasy?
Has Ed been forced to make any signings?
Did Ed not approve of some signings while passing on others?

 

[roonster09]

Where is the fantasy?
Has Ed been forced to make any signings?
Did Ed not approve of some signings while passing on others?

You are in the fantasy land where you think only ManUtd matters and they control the world football.

So why did Woodward sign Pogba, Lukaku, Matic, Sanchez and many more. Did he do it to play table tennis with them or did he sign because manager asked for the players?

What do you even mean by forced? FFS do you even think before posting or just post whatever random words you can think of?

fecking hell, reading your posts is tedious and giving me headache.

Have a good day.

 

[Ish]

Woodward has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that this United team is out run in every game. The poor work rate is entirely on the manager. And it makes it unlikely that he will be able to turn it around.

No silly, that's obviously because of our fitness coach(es)!

 

[AngliaRed]

11% wanted him to stay when this poll started and its now at 13%

 

[Ish]

Why some pro-Mou posters keep banging the «Pep's on FM cheat mode» drum is beyond me. It's not a reason to keep Jose at United. It's the very opposite.
You might, at a stretch, get people to buy the «we can't compete with City, so he's actually done well» narrative (it seems we struggle to compete with a number of others as well, but there you go).
But you won't get anyone who isn't completely blinkered to even consider buying the «he's the best around, we can't do better» bollocks: if we're doomed not to get near City for the foreseeable, why the feck should we stick with Jose of all managers? His reputation is built, entirely, on his record of winning big, fast. He has zero previous as a long-term team builder (nevermind one working with a financial disadvantage - a significant one too, according to people who peddle this story). And - yes - he's a controversial cnut whom the majority of United fans don't really like, and whose preferred brand of football is so-so at best and fecking dreadful at worst.

Top post.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

You are in the fantasy land where you think only ManUtd matters and they control the world football.

So why did Woodward sign Pogba, Lukaku, Matic, Sanchez and many more. Did he do it to play table tennis with them or did he sign because manager asked for the players?

What do you even mean by forced? FFS do you even think before posting or just post whatever random words you can think of?

fecking hell, reading your posts is tedious and giving me headache.

Have a good day.

Cos if Ed's not being forced then of what relevance is 'He buys the players Jose wants' got to do with how much we paid, when Ed has shown that Mourinho's desires are not enough to secure a signing.

He signed those players cos he felt they were worth their asking price and he didnt sign Perisic cos he felt he wasnt worth it. Its the same reason he didnt sign Toby and Maguire cos he felt they werent worth it.

The choice of what price was paid or not paid for each player we have signed or failed to sign has been made by Ed, even before Mourinho joined the club.

 

[el3mel]

The issue is that you think the summer failure lies solely with Ed, when actually both Ed Jose and other at the club are culpable. If you read my post I already stated that we need to fix things off the pitch.

However this is a thread about Jose and whether he should stay or not, I'm not talking about our league position either. We have signed 11 players yet can't name 2 of them who is performing to the required level, or even their best level. That to me is a serious problem that has nothing to do with Ed and more to do with Jose and the scouting team.

It lies more in Ed than Mourinho, when it comes to summer, and there's nothing that will ensure it won't happen with the next manager.

If Ed didn't like Mourinho targets, he could have simply told him earlier in summer when he got the litpst that we needed upgrades but he thinks the targets aren't worth the value, and told Mourinho to search for younger or attainable quality players with certain criteria. Either Mourinho would have modified his list very early in summer, or refuse and persist on it, leading to us terminating his contract on mutual consent and getting a manager that will suit Ed's plans earlier in the summer, and we would hace continued the progress we already made under new manager.

What he did is he didn't like the signings, spent the summr reluctant to pay as he thought they aren't worth the value, then after market closed briefed that targets weren't good enough and he was only going to pay for someone like Varane ..etc. Shambolic way of managing the situation. He gave a contract earlier to Mouinho, that means he probably trusted him, and Mourinho isn't an unknown quantity when it comes to transfers, then was reluctant to get the targets as he didn't like, didn't try to tell Mourinho to modify the test, and let's assume that he did tried and Mourinho refused, then he either made a mistake keeping him in job, or deciced to keep him but not giving him his targets anyway. All thess situations were disastrous, whatever happened from them. A more intelligent and experienced CEO would have saved us this dilemma very early in summer, but Ed lookd cluless.

Mourinho is responsible for everything on the pitch, and Ed is responsible for everything off the pitch. I can't blame Ed for us playing tumescent football, for terrible tactics, fautly formations and using players the wrong way. All these on the manager. Our position in the table and losses are on the manager, but as much as I can't blame Ed for problems on the pitch, I can't blame the manager for us failing to saction deals, not being able to sell the deadwood, not knowing what to do with the manager's position, not being able to manage market situation properly, not trying tell the manager the certain criteria for targets, giving huge wages and new contracts for average players after a purple patch. These are all 100% CEO job. A new manager is going to improve performance on the pitch, tactics, formation..etc, but he's not going to imrpove our market business or how we deal with transfers dilemma or wages structure. Blaming manager for this too means we're desperate to convince ourselves that 99% of our problems will be solved once that single person is gone, something we convinced ourselves with too when Moyes and LVG left.

Each one has his own job and each one has to be blamed for doing that job poorly. I'm at a point I don't care if Mourinho leaves. We're not going to finish top 4 and that will be on him and he will have to go if this happens. However, this is irrelevant from acknowledging that Ed was responsible for fecking up the summer. Agree that this is Mourinho thread, but when we were talking in Ed's one people were replaying with the same way anyway.

Again sorry for any mistakes while writing, all this from a tablet. I need to stop with these long paragraphs tbh.

 

[roonster09]

Cos if Ed's not being forced then of what relevance is 'He buys the players Jose wants' got to do with how much we paid, when Ed has shown that Mourinho's desires are not enough to secure a signing.

He signed those players cos he felt they were worth their asking price and he didnt sign Perisic cos he felt he wasnt worth it. Its the same reason he didnt sign Toby and Maguire cos he felt they werent worth it.

The choice of what price was paid or not paid for each player we have signed or failed to sign has been made by Ed, even before Mourinho joined the club.

 

[FootyGirl88]

You might as well let it go..

 

[Robbie Boy]

The holy trinity Jose mentalist brigade are still posting long winded nonsense, I see.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

They wanted pep, and to get him them they structured themselves to be attractive to him. Didn’t he just sign a new deal as well? Where as we have Ed who couldnt give a shit as long as we make it to top 4 and he can sell Manchester United toilet paper to east Asia. For all Jose’s faults in style, his attitude to winning is something we have desperately needed here. No matter what’s true about city, they want to win everything. They don’t care about throwing money at the problem and the had a plan for making it happen. A plan that started in 2012. They invested in the club at every level and by the time pep did take over his seat was very warm and comfy. What have we done in that time? Moyes, lvg, jose, over paying for players, over paying those players, letting contracts run down to the wire, making no investment in any other aspect of the club other than the surface shit that looks good to investors and advertisers. Man Utd has become about money and almost nothing else. City has become about football(and washing the abu dhabi public image). So even when they make a mistake, they move on from it quickly. We cant. because we pay stupid wages that no one else will pay. If we want rid of players we have to subsidise wages or let them go free.

Look at the players they got, and look at the players we got. Almost 30 million for felliani ffs. 50 million plus loads of addons for a prospect. A guy who never wanted to be here and sold at a loss a year later. Where is our scouting network actually looking? Where the feck is a world class right winger we've needed for I dont know how long. Darmian is the best right back we could find? So good hes been displaced by not one, but two wingers. Where are the defensive mids that should have been bought in place of Matic? Where are the defensive mids now that Matic either needs a serious rest or is done? You can say jose causes drama and falls out with everyone wherever he goes, but he also always puts together a good team. Usually bringing in some top talent. Until he get here that is. you really think he just stopped being good over night?

We needed to over haul our defence. Have done for years. Thats swapping out Jones, Smalling, Rojo, blind. Weve got rid of one of them. And Ed says "no!" to buying more. So how can we get rid of them if we dont get them cover first? This isnt rocket science. Theres been no movement on these players that Jose himself had a go at for not making the effort to get back to fittness. Instead going on about how Mata was giving everything for the team. That right there says they are not his kind of players. But we cant get rid of them, because they are paid too much. Because Ed doesnt see the value in paying 300 million to move up one place. Do you think no one told him it wasnt about moving up one place, and that it was about not losing a place? Yet he still didnt invest. City bend over back
wards and forwards to get the best team they can, Ed couldnt give a feck beyond making the top 4. If we dont get rid of him soon, that will become the united way. People are worried we'll become the next Liverpool, Im terrified we'll become the next Arsenal.

All of that will count for nothing if Guardiola decides he's done and wants to call it a day. It wasn't all warm and comfy by the time he got there as evidenced by the resorces he had to spend after taking the reigns to get the team to where he wanted it. There's no doubt the situation at City is a unique one amongst clubs and their motivation is difficult to match and the chances of our leadership to get to that mindset is going to be small even if Woodward and the Glazers should somehow be hounded out.
Even so they have generally put their faith in the managers they elected and when LvG made 4th in his first season he was awarded another 150 million to build on that result. I also think that he advised on the academy and was allowed to make changes at the training ground.

Before Pep their transfer record was far from enviable. Even worse than Fellaini they got a forty million pounds Eliaquim Mangala who they still to this day haven't been able to offload. A 30 million Wilfried Bony who they tried to pie off pretty much immediately and eventually sold back to Swansea for a third of the fee they paid. A bunch of players who, to be fair they got at relatively low fees and were able to offload at a minor deficit, surely as you say because of lower wages, but still made absolutely no mark whatsoever.
They also paid over the odds for Sané, Walker and Stones but nobody talks about that because they're successful. They were taken to the cleaners for Sterling at the time and the deal looked like a big flop until Pep took over. The unit is stronger and therefore the individuals within it do better and their values inflate.
The opposite has happened under Mourinho, the system has been flawed and the individuals have suffered for it. How is a 50 million striker/attacker going to live up to his price playing as a LWB?
You can buy a guy the most exotic and expensive ingredients but if he doesn't know what to do with them you'll rather be dining at McDonalds at end of the night anyway. Just look at Lopetegui at Real Madrid this season.

You ask why we've not signed the world class RW, DM? Isn't that questions for the manager?

He clearly wanted Matic and got him. The fact that we're already looking for a successor can hardly be a surprise to anyone. If he'd have his way we'd have got Perisic or Willian and how world class they are is up for debate but clearly we'd have been in a similar situation there with either of them needing a successor in place. Especially considering everything points to Martial having to make way for whoever was coming in.

So we needed a defensive overhaul, has he not signed 3 defenders already? Is that not enough of an overhaul, and if not then why are we spoiling resources if players who don't improve us. His transfer record for us makes you question if he himself knows what kind of player he wants as he's fell out with and benched 90% of the player he himself bought for christ sakes.
You say he's brought in talented players before, so tell me, who apart from Modric at Real (who to my earlier point was voted the worst signing under his management btw, ahead of fecking Alex Song!!) has had any long lasting impact at the clubs he took them to?

There's absolutely no indication there that trusting Mourinho with more money would've had the desired effect, and that's on the manager.

 

[Reddy Rederson]

Jose has bought a total of 11 players since he has taken over. Please dont suggest it is largely the same squad. It is not.

LVG failed because he couldnt get the best out if established players like. Di Maria Falcao RVP Schnederlin Bastian etc
Given more time he probably would have done a good job as he had made a good base.

All this talk of money being more important than success yet the club went after Jose (because he was seen as a winner) and gave him a world record player and practically everything he has asked for. Makes sense.

You have a real problem with accepting that other people have differing opinions to you huh? Third and final time Im going to say it, agree to degree. Time to move on, buddy.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Instead of the funny face why not explain how failing to sign Perisic fits into the 'he buys players that Jose wants' narrative. Jose wanted him, it was possible to get, but?

 

[roonster09]

You might as well let it go..

I will. I will just switch to FM in sometime.

 

[Reddy Rederson]

All of that will count for nothing if Guardiola decides he's done and wants to call it a day.

He sign another contract in may. So Im thinking hes pretty comfortable. But even if he did leave, so what? City did what they set out to do. And they
have a settled infrastructure where any manager that comes in will be little more than a coach. There wont be any great upheaval like with us. Theyll transition just like all the club name drops thats been done to death here. City have structured themselves to be another barca or madrid. They will never have the shit we do right now, because they made a plan that went beyond just getting top 4. Moyes was right all along. How chilling is that thought?

 

[roonster09]

Instead of the funny face why not explain how failing to sign Perisic fits into the 'he buys players that Jose wants' narrative. Jose wanted him, it was possible to get, but?

"

Sabatini told Italian reporters on Friday: “Spalletti has asked not to sell Perisic. He wants Perisic as one of his players because he is fantastic. Inter wouldn’t like to sell him but at the same time the club doesn’t want to have an unhappy player.

One thing is certain – the price of our players will be set by Inter Milan. We hope Perisic will stay but we will know more in the next day. If Perisic will leave, we want money and a player and we expect Perisic over these next days will show good behaviour.

Clear why he wasn't signed? or you will ignore this, post some more nonsense and in hours ask the same question again?

I didn't say Woodward sign all the players Jose wanted, I said he signs the players Jose wants. There is a big difference. It's near impossible to sign all the players managers want.

Like I said, you live in a fantasy land where you think everything revolves around ManUtd.

So Jose says he wants Lukaku, Woodward signs Lukaku and now it's Woodward's mistake for signing Lukaku as Jose didn't force Woodward to sign him? FFS, some of the mental gymnastics on display is just out of the world.

 

[Canagel]

So this is the absolute minimum now ? When was this absolute minimum stuff when we broke the English transfer record for Di Maria and ended up scrapping 4th in LVG first season and we were happy and called this progress ? Will this absolute mimmini stuff come in mind when Klopp finishs second or third this season after splashing loads on VVD, Alisson, Keita and Fabinho or it will be called progress and heavy metal football ?

It looks like for me Mourinho is evaluated with different standards than the rest of the managers. What is considered progress for the rest is considered terrible for him. Zero perspective imo.

What's important is the state of the team Mourinho got, which was a team finished 7th, 4th, 5th, qualified to CL once in 3 years and won 1 trophy. He got this team to win 2 cups, then to finish 2nd in his second season with our highest points tally since Fergie and another cup final, this is called progress. The quality of players have improved massively from LVG last season. This is called progress too.

2nd isn't something to be proud of, never said it was, but acting like a team who finished in top 4 once in 4 years then jumped to second isn't being on right track at this time is very arrogant and weird way of looking at it, especially when the same fans who say that keep drooling over other managers who achieve far less in the same league just becase they're telling their players to go forward!



Which is what happened in the first 2 seasons, as I said several times. Of course we have regressed this season for various reasons, Mourinho himself included, but the last 2 seasons the team was on the right track and the results were on steady progress. It's illogical to think that a team who was used to finish 7th, 5th and 6th for successive years will jump to 1st immediately. It's not like we were having one poor year like Chelsea or City. It was a period of continuous decline. Mourinho came, first season horrible league campaign but 2 cups, second season improved massively in the league and reached another cup final. Whatever way you look at that, it's called steady progress. The logical next step was to keep improving the team further more to close the gap and jump from second to being 1st or close 1st, something that didn't happen. We decided to stop, and the dilemma between Mourinho and Ed fecked the team up. As I said, both are at fault, Mourinho for issues on the pitch, and Ed for the terrible market.

Even title winning teams when they reach a point they think they don't need to spend anymore and should enter the next season with the same team after a great season, it ends in a disaster most of times. Chelsea under Mourinho and Conte, Madrid this season..etc. You simply can't stop spending and improving the squad farther to not let the players drop their guard down and think they achieved enough. They need continuous competition. Our team meanwhile finished second with 19 points gap from first and we are here giving all excuses in the world for the board for deciding to take their hand off from the team and not spend anymore while the team was steady returning on the right track. It's all because the manager is a hateful figure as Mourinho. Put another manager in charge and let Ed do the same, and everyone will be agreeing on slaughtering one person.




Again, you considered Mourinho a failure and didn't progress the team because he achieved the absolute "minimum" by finsihing second after spending loads on Pogba and Lukaku.

Then if Klopp this season, after spending load on VVD, Alisson, Fabinho and Keita finishs second or third while winning nothing, I hope you will keep your same perspective and consider him a failure too.

Otherwise you can use 2 different standards for 2 managers, and Klopp doesn't have the "no money spent" excuse people kept using for him anymore. If he doesn't win anything this year, then I don't see words like being progress, successful or heavy metal football if 2nd is considered absolute minimum and not something to shout about after spending loads of money, or is this applicable to Mourinho only ?

What I'm asking for is some perspective.



Mourinho isn't an unknown quantity. He did nothing here to surprise us from his natural self.

His teams don't have certain identity. Beside being tight and combact at the back with fast transition, his teams don't imply certain style of play. He can play with 6 defenders in one game and 3 strikers in the following one.

He doesn't hold any kind of philosophy that he defends or wants to apply at each team he manages. He simply wants tight defense that can hold their own + quality attackers up front with individual abilities to finish the game.

This is nothing surprising. If you don't want to see this at Unites, why is Ed escaping the blame for hiring him ? You hire Mourinho, you sacrifice being entertaining for achieving results. He will ask for top notch defense, and quality attackers. He will ask for experienced and leader players. All these are known and we all know it would have happened. Once you hire Mourinho you declare that you're ready to go this route and follow it then.

If Ed doesn't know anything about how Mourinho operates, it's his own fault. Even those who don't know football know him quite well.



We were never in for RB but we went on and signed Dalot. Well that point doesn't make sense. You see Valencia is getting dropped completely now.

Sanchez said in his very first interview with the club that he prefers to play central or cutting from left side.

The question is still there, have we improved our weaknesses from last season, the weaknesses that prevented us from competing on the league ? The answer was no. Meanwhile, City had a problem in defense and GK, improved it in 2 summers, Liverpool had a problem in midfield, defense and GK, improved it in 1 year, Chelsea had a problem in midfield, we had a problem in fullbacks and right flank, we went on and signed a youngster there and thanks. Out of these clubs, we looked the least ambitious of them to overhaul the team or solve our problems. We looked content with second and decided to keep the team up. It's absolutely frustrating that a team like Liverpool who finished way below us, looked more interested this summer to close the gap with City than us.

Then back to how Mourinho operated in his previous clubs, that's very uncharacteristic of him. He usually builds his team fast and wins fast before leaving. He signed loads of players in his first year with Chelsea, completely changed his Inter team in second season, with signings that were all the main reason for the treble (Sneijder, Milito, Motta, Eto'o, Lucio, even Pandev lol) and completely revamped Chelsea (second stint) in his second season, letting all his strikers leave while replacing all of them, and signing Fabregas. Mourinho has never been in for long term building process. He builds his team incredibly fast and wins fast so that the team usually gets bored of him in 3rd or 4th as they did everything, and he leaves. This is the first time I have seen Mourinho so reluctant on getting rid of deadwood, not signing more than 4 players per summer and not letting anyone leave. Very uncharacteristic of him. Either he has become weak and not ruthless enough, or that he's working under certain budget per summer and thus doesn't want to sell much.

Even though I agree that we need to tweak the formation to sacrificd wingers, it's not a solution for long term. No team plays without width with good output, be it backs or wingers. It's merely something to cover for this team, but all teams around us have 90% of their dangerous movement starting from the flanks. One way or another we will have to buy wingers or fullbacks. Shaw's output from the left flank is absolutely terrible and is leaking goals from his flank every game, you see that he needs competitoln, he actually needs replacing and to be a good sub, he's currently our only left back and is doing bare minimum in comparisom to shifted wingers as Young, but ultimately he has too many flaws, and Dalot has played merely 5 or 6 games in first team football, then you have Valencia and Young, the less said the better. Otherwise, teams will learn to congest the center and box as much as possible as they know we have zero output from width anyway and we will focus all our plays central.

There's definitely nothing wrong from wanting actual wingers. This is the permanent solution, not playing without them at all. You see the havoc caused by Martial as left winger, imagine a right winger doing the same on the right then. I'm for playing with 2 strikers and no wingers currently, but that's for a stop gap, not a long term solution and not something we should be building on imo.

The last summer was simply a failure, whoever the manager is, it's irrelevant to me. Moyes summer was failure, it doesn't prevent me from wanting Moyes out or slaughtering him then. Just because I hated Moyes, I wasn't going to miraculously convert a failure of a summer to a succesful one by just talking. It was still a failure. This one is a failure too. That doesn't excuse Mourinho for any blame, the team should be far higher up in the team and that's down to him and his management. No one is saying that we had lost to WHU and Brighton and in 8th thanks to Ed. What we're saying is we didn't make a single try in summer to imrpove the team any farther and were content with 2nd and decided that was enough, meanwhile our rivals looked more interested in closing the gap with City. It's frustrating to see.

Either Ed is clueless about who he's hiring for the job or that was his real ambition, to achieve consistent top 4 finish. I don't find a third option.

And just in case, I want to repeat a point I made im earlier in case you're going to mention it. I'm not saying we should have signed Willian, Perisic and Toby particularly. He should have either told Mourinho to modfiy his list very early im summer with targets with certain criteria, or decided with Mourinho to terminate contract with mutual consent if they reached closed alley. There was 10 better solutions for this problem, and he chose the worst of them.

Finally sorry for any mistakes while writing, wrote all this on tablet.

IIts clear we're not going to agree so I'll try to keep this short.

Firstly,
If Liverpool finish 2nd this season of course its progress. As it stands they are in the title well in the race whilst roughly at December time we were already 11 points behind. That's not competing.
The other thing you keep ignoring is that spending of Mourinho and Klopp is virtually the same in the last three years. They spent more than us this summer but likewise we spent more in the summers previous. So will you then say Liverpool shouldn't have been competing against us in 2016/17 and 2017/18? Because they didn't spend more than us. And yet they finished ahead in one season and very close to us on the table in the next. Only became 4th because they focused on CL.
Therefore if Liverpool are miles ahead this season has nothing to do with spending but Klopp is better coach than Mourinho. Two managers who have been well backed in the transfer market by their boards but only one is competing currently.

But because we didn't get a new CB and William there could be no way of improving the team. Willian would've come to replace Martial actually don't forget. His claim we are conceding goals because we are now more 'attacking' has also been disproved by the stats.

Secondly
You said the quality of players have improved from LVG? Which players are they? Because Matic wasn't improved on Herrera statistically. Lukaku scored less PL goals than he did at Everton. He's got only two players he signed starting our biggest match of the season. And you're telling me about quality of players?

What is this great plan that Ed stopped in the summer? You guys claim that the final step needed in the summer to rebuild the team we didn't make well do we look like team that was already complete 2/3 of way and was missing 1/3 or a small part? On the evidence of this season clearly not. Infact it looks like the players that got 2nd barely improved or took a step forward. Surely you must keep what was working as it is even if you didn't get 1/2 extra players? No he ruined the confidence of our defence, some of his players like Matic, Lukaku have been the worst players..
Therefore this means there wasn't anything to build on in the first place. Let alone being a CB or two away from challenging City.

Thirdly, the RB I meant an experienced RB we weren't going to buy experienced RB. Dalot is solid addition
We were never going to buy an attacker unless it's willian and we already know what a disaster that would've been. I already told you mourinho said Sanchez completed our attack. The only move that would've happened is Willian with Martial going the other way because he doesn't like to keep unhappy players. luckily board intervened.
Anyway not dragging on too much, the original point I made was there wasn't any progress made and Ed has nothing to do with Mourinho failings on the pitch.
He gave him all the players he wanted except for new CB after he already bought two of them and ruined their confidence. This season clearly proved that there wasn't any progress last season but rather it was a combination of different factors like other teams massively underperforming, less draws than the previous year.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

You say he's brought in talented players before, so tell me, who apart from Modric at Real (who to my earlier point was voted the worst signing under his management btw, ahead of fecking Alex Song!!) has had any long lasting impact at the clubs he took them to?

There's absolutely no indication there that trusting Mourinho with more money would've had the desired effect, and that's on the manager.

While I dont trust his judgement on transfer targets more than the average manager, he has had his fair share of successful signings. Drogba, Willian, Ashley Cole, and Varane are a few that come to mind

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Clear why he wasn't signed? or you will ignore this, post some more nonsense and in hours ask the same question again?

Inter was not asking for the impossible. We had the money and we had the player, but magically fail to make the deal when Ed makes all possible signings?
Can it be that Ed decided perisic wasnt worth that much despite Jose wanting him?

I didn't say Woodward sign all the players Jose wanted, I said he signs the players Jose wants. There is a big difference. It's near impossible to sign all the players managers want.

Then the accurate phrase is 'Woodward signs some of the players Jose wanted'. You initial phrase without the qualifier implies all.

Like I said, you live in a fantasy land where you think everything revolves around ManUtd.

So Jose says he wants Lukaku, Woodward signs Lukaku and now it's Woodward's mistake for signing Lukaku as Jose didn't force Woodward to sign him? FFS, some of the mental gymnastics on display is just out of the world.

Ed (not Mourinho) is responsible for signing Lukaku for 75-90m. It was Ed who negotiated and decided that it was worth it to spend that amount of money on Lukaku.

Ed is not just rubber stamping Mourinho's requests. He decides which he fulfills and which he doesnt.

 

[simplyared]

Change the question:
Would the City/Liverpool/Chelsea/Spurs/Arsenal fans prefer Mourinho to their current managers? Answer no
Consequently the fact there are 70% of us that want him gone is by no means unreasonable. Not a case of the grass being greener!

 

[izec]

I respect all the guys that go toe to toe with the Jose fans on here, you have my appreciation.

 

[roonster09]

Inter was not asking for the impossible. We had the money and we had the player, but magically fail to make the deal when Ed makes all possible signings?
Can it be that Ed decided perisic wasnt worth that much despite Jose wanting him?
Then the accurate phrase is 'Woodward signs some of the players Jose wanted'. You initial phrase without the qualifier implies all.

Ed (not Mourinho) is responsible for signing Lukaku for 75-90m. It was Ed who negotiated and decided that it was worth it to spend that amount of money on Lukaku.

Ed is not just rubber stamping Mourinho's requests. He decides which he fulfills and which he doesnt.

I'm out this time for sure. Really got headache reading so much nonsense.

Using that shit logic, every deal is possible. Even signing Messi.

Like I said fantasy or lunatic world.

 

[Bilbo]

I respect all the guys that go toe to toe with the Jose fans on here, you have my appreciation.

We shouldn't have to put everyone into a box on this. I only recently voted 'Out' in this poll and up until then was genuinely on the fence. There are probably some recent posts from me on here backing him.

Things change, opinions change - though I have to say I think it would be easier to flip the current 'In' group than it would be the other side. 3 defeats on the bounce will be enough to convert a lot of those, however for me it would need a sustained improvement in many areas for me to want him to stay now.

 

[Kapardin]

He sign another contract in may. So Im thinking hes pretty comfortable. But even if he did leave, so what? City did what they set out to do. And they
have a settled infrastructure where any manager that comes in will be little more than a coach. There wont be any great upheaval like with us. Theyll transition just like all the club name drops thats been done to death here. City have structured themselves to be another Barca or Madrid. They will never have the shit we do right now, because they made a plan that went beyond just getting top 4. Moyes was right all along. How chilling is that thought?

Guardiola won't leave though. He is like a kid in a candy shop, getting whatever he wants at City in terms of transfers. Like the proverbial mad scientist being handed the keys to the laboratory. To his credit, he delivers the goods too if backed to the skies.

Remember he was letting his friends leak out info. that he considered City to be as big a club as Villarreal etc when he was under pressure in his first season. That was a Jose-esque tactic of deflecting pressure, making himself look bigger than the club as though he was doing the club a major favor by managing them. But all that has been swept under the carpet since his methods started working.

 

[roonster09]

I respect all the guys that go toe to toe with the Jose fans on here, you have my appreciation.

I think I have to bow down. You can't read so much shit in a day. Some of the posts and Logic

They can't be that stupid so I'm assuming few of them are trolls.

 

[LeftyBlaster]

I think I have to bow down. You can't read so much shit in a day. Some of the posts and Logic

They can't be that stupid so I'm assuming few of them are trolls.

The amount of stupidity coming from the Jose defenders on this thread. I can't deal. Jose has them brainwashed and conned.

 

[Cassidy]

It lies more in Ed than Mourinho, when it comes to summer, and there's nothing that will ensure it won't happen with the next manager.

If Ed didn't like Mourinho targets, he could have simply told him earlier in summer when he got the litpst that we needed upgrades but he thinks the targets aren't worth the value, and told Mourinho to search for younger or attainable quality players with certain criteria. Either Mourinho would have modified his list very early in summer, or refuse and persist on it, leading to us terminating his contract on mutual consent and getting a manager that will suit Ed's plans earlier in the summer, and we would hace continued the progress we already made under new manager.

What he did is he didn't like the signings, spent the summr reluctant to pay as he thought they aren't worth the value, then after market closed briefed that targets weren't good enough and he was only going to pay for someone like Varane ..etc. Shambolic way of managing the situation. He gave a contract earlier to Mouinho, that means he probably trusted him, and Mourinho isn't an unknown quantity when it comes to transfers, then was reluctant to get the targets as he didn't like, didn't try to tell Mourinho to modify the test, and let's assume that he did tried and Mourinho refused, then he either made a mistake keeping him in job, or deciced to keep him but not giving him his targets anyway. All thess situations were disastrous, whatever happened from them. A more intelligent and experienced CEO would have saved us this dilemma very early in summer, but Ed lookd cluless.

Mourinho is responsible for everything on the pitch, and Ed is responsible for everything off the pitch. I can't blame Ed for us playing tumescent football, for terrible tactics, fautly formations and using players the wrong way. All these on the manager. Our position in the table and losses are on the manager, but as much as I can't blame Ed for problems on the pitch, I can't blame the manager for us failing to saction deals, not being able to sell the deadwood, not knowing what to do with the manager's position, not being able to manage market situation properly, not trying tell the manager the certain criteria for targets, giving huge wages and new contracts for average players after a purple patch. These are all 100% CEO job. A new manager is going to improve performance on the pitch, tactics, formation..etc, but he's not going to imrpove our market business or how we deal with transfers dilemma or wages structure. Blaming manager for this too means we're desperate to convince ourselves that 99% of our problems will be solved once that single person is gone, something we convinced ourselves with too when Moyes and LVG left.

Each one has his own job and each one has to be blamed for doing that job poorly. I'm at a point I don't care if Mourinho leaves. We're not going to finish top 4 and that will be on him and he will have to go if this happens. However, this is irrelevant from acknowledging that Ed was responsible for fecking up the summer. Agree that this is Mourinho thread, but when we were talking in Ed's one people were replaying with the same way anyway.

Again sorry for any mistakes while writing, all this from a tablet. I need to stop with these long paragraphs tbh.

So many assumption being made here. It looked like we went for Skriniar and possibly Koulibaly in the summer and were unsuccessful (as well as Toby) then later in the summer it seemed we went for other targets Boateng, Maguire (he was not mentioned till after the world cup) and Godin.

So maybe the real issue was our top targets were not attainable (Skrinair and Toby for example) and then the revised list later in the summer was not one everyone was comfortable with (e.g Maguire and Mina)

So again the blame isn't on one person its on everyone,

Ed couldn't get a deal done for Skrinair or Toby (you can blame him maybe but its not unreasonable to think that this may happen at times)

The scouts and Jose (for coming up with a revised set of options Maguire and Boateng were not good enough)

Ed for not being able to convince Godin to sign

The PL teams who voted for an early close to the window.

Not being able to sell deadwood falls on Ed you are right.

Ed isn't responsible for picking our transfer targets, for instance he isn't responsible for the fact we bought Fred who isn't even getting a game

 

[cheeky_backheel]

I'm out this time for sure. Really got headache reading so much nonsense.

Using that shit logic, every deal is possible. Even signing Messi.

Like I said fantasy or lunatic world.

As usual, extrapolating to what was not said.

If you have what Barcelona is asking for and Messi is willing to join your club, then yes. After all, Neymar joined PSG and CR7 joined Juve. Madrid had even managed to sign Figo who was then Barcelona captain.

If you have what the selling club is asking for (which we did) and the player is willing to join (which he was) then yes every such deal is possible and it is only dependent on if you decide it is worth it to go through with it or not

 

[FootyGirl88]

I'm out this time for sure. Really got headache reading so much nonsense.

Using that shit logic, every deal is possible. Even signing Messi.

Like I said fantasy or lunatic world.

Serves you right, you should have listened to me

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Ed isn't responsible for picking our transfer targets, for instance he isn't responsible for the fact we bought Fred who isn't even getting a game

Why do you guys misrepresent facts. Someone who has started half (6 of 12) of our league games in not "even getting a game"?

Is it possible the player needs more time to adapt to the new team, system and league?

 

[el3mel]

IIts clear we're not going to agree so I'll try to keep this short.

Firstly,
If Liverpool finish 2nd this season of course its progress. As it stands they are in the title well in the race whilst roughly at December time we were already 11 points behind. That's not competing.
The other thing you keep ignoring is that spending of Mourinho and Klopp is virtually the same in the last three years. They spent more than us this summer but likewise we spent more in the summers previous. So will you then say Liverpool shouldn't have been competing against us in 2016/17 and 2017/18? Because they didn't spend more than us. And yet they finished ahead in one season and very close to us on the table in the next. Only became 4th because they focused on CL.
Therefore if Liverpool are miles ahead this season has nothing to do with spending but Klopp is better coach than Mourinho. Two managers who have been well backed in the transfer market but only one is competing currently.

So if Klopp needed 3 seasons ( while finishing 8th, 4th and 4th while winning nothing) to get to second after spending loads last 2 summers, it will be considered progress but when Mourinho needed 1 season after nearly spending same money on the incomings it's considered bare minimum.

I'm not saying Klopp didn't improve Liverpool, but you have double standards and it's clear to see tbh.

But because we didn't get a new CB and William there could be no way of improving the team. Willian would've come to replace Martial actually don't forget. His claim we are conceding goals because we are now more 'attacking' has also been disproved by the stats.

I didn't say that, so I'm not going to replay on it.

Secondly
You said the quality of players have improved from LVG? Which players are they? Because Matic wasn't improved on Herrera statistically. Lukaku scored less PL goals than he did at Everton. He's got only two players he signed starting our biggest match of the season. And you're telling me about quality of players?

Herrera wasn't even playing for LVG to start with. He was a mere sub in his 2 seasons and kept going in and out of the team, while we kept asking for him to play.

We moved from having Fellaini and Rooney starting for us in midfield with injury prone Bastian (who played 18/38 league matches this season) and useless Morgan to have Pogba, Matic, Herrera, Fellaini and Fred.

Whatever you think about Lukaku, he's still better than having no one at all up front, which was the case with LVG. Our forwards were Rashford, Martial, Mata and Depay. Now we have Sanchez and Lukaku instead of Depay in additions to the rest.

He got 2 players of his signings starting against City because Pogba and Lukaku were injured and Sanchez had a knock. Only Bailly and Fred were out for football reaaons. Not sure why you made this point.

What is this great plan that Ed stopped in the summer? You guys claim that the final step needed in the summer to rebuild the team we didn't make well do we look like team that was already complete 2/3 of way and was missing 1/3 or a small part? On the evidence of this season clearly not. Infact it looks like the players that got 2nd barely improved or took a step forward. Surely you must keep what was working as it is even if you didn't get 1/2 extra players? No he ruined the confidence of our defence, some of his players like Matic, Lukaku have been the worst players..
Therefore this means there wasn't anything to build on in the first place. Let alone being a CB or two away from challenging City.

I didn't say there was a great plan.

I said the team was taking a steady progress the last 2 seasons and the logical step was to keep what you were doing and keep improving the quality to close the gap and move further ahead. We had problems in positiona X, Y and Z that prevented us from competing last season, then you need to enter summer to reinforce them, just like City, Liverpool and Chelsea did. We didn't. We decided it was enought.

Of course we're performing far below our form now and Mourinho is responsible for this, but I'm evaluating the team based on its overall quality and its quality is 2nd to 3rd. With 4-5 additions focused in certain areas we can compete. The team isn't poor, it just has certain group of players that feck up the efforts of their quality teammates. We looked absolutely content with what we did last summer though and decided to stop at this.

In the world of football you need to keep putting pressuee and competition on players otherwisw they will feel relaxed and confident about their position and think they have reached the target. Something we shouldn't allow, especially after a mere 2nd spot, not even a title to decide to stop at this.

Thirdly, the RB I meant an experienced RB we weren't going to buy experienced RB. Dalot is solid addition
We were never going to buy an attacker unless it's willian and we already know what a disaster that would've been. I already told you Mourinho said Sanchez completed our attack. The only move that would've happened is Willian with Martial going the other

If Mourinho wanted Willian then it means he recognizes we needed RW after second half of last season.

Sanchez said in his first interview that his position is central or left, so he made it clear about his position. When we got Sanchez, Mourinho tried to shoehorn him and Martial in same formation by putting Sanchez left and Martial, but it failed miserably against Spurs and Newcastle, since then he spent the whole season trying to find a way to integrate him into the side, fecking up the team in the progress, so there's a possible thinking he changed his mind and deciddd we still needed a winger. By the end of the day, during summer he said he wanted 2 more signings but he think he would get one, that one must have been the defender, that leaves the second to be RW most probably

So if we offered him another quality winger he would have refused ? Doesn't make any sense. You don't need to sign Willian. You need to sign a right winger. Suggest alternative on the manager or let the scouts bring him someone else. We simply vetoed the signing and that's it. Same for CB btw. You don't need to particularly need to sign specific players, sign the players he need in this position. No manager is going to refuse quality players, and let's imagine he refused, terminate his contract on mutual consent and bring another manager that will love this quality players. Many solutions for every situation but again we chose the worsr.

Anyway not dragging on too much, the original point I made was there wasn't any progress made and Ed has nothing to do with Mourinho failings on the pitch.

Perspective.

He gave him all the players he wanted except for new CB after he already bought two of them and ruined their confidence. This season clearly proved that there wasn't any progress last season but rather it was a combination of different factors like other teams massively underperforming, less draws than the previous year.

Or there was a steady progress then we regressed this season for various reasons. You know it's possible. Things aren't white or black all the time.

 

[Canagel]

Ed (not Mourinho) is responsible for signing Lukaku for 75-90m. It was Ed who negotiated and decided that it was worth it to spend that amount of money on Lukaku.

Ed is not just rubber stamping Mourinho's requests. He decides which he fulfills and which he doesnt.

The money spent is only brought up in the case of failure.
If Jose made his signings work the fee isn't mentioned.
You must remember this

 

[el3mel]

So many assumption being made here. It looked like we went for Skriniar and possibly Koulibaly in the summer and were unsuccessful (as well as Toby) then later in the summer it seemed we went for other targets Boateng, Maguire (he was not mentioned till after the World Cup) and Godin.

So maybe the real issue was our top targets were not attainable (Skrinair and Toby for example) and then the revised list later in the summer was not one everyone was comfortable with (e.g Maguire and Mina)

So again the blame isn't on one person its on everyone,

Ed couldn't get a deal done for Skrinair or Toby (you can blame him maybe but its not unreasonable to think that this may happen at times)

The scouts and Jose (for coming up with a revised set of options Maguire and Boateng were not good enough)

Ed for not being able to convince Godin to sign

The PL teams who voted for an early close to the window.

Not being able to sell deadwood falls on Ed you are right.

Ed isn't responsible for picking our transfer targets, for instance he isn't responsible for the fact we bought Fred who isn't even getting a game

As far as I'm concerned we're starting to get interested Skriniar for Jan. There were thoughts about Kouilbaly in summer but we didn't make any move. You don't know if a player is available or not till you make actual offer ( see Ronaldo or Neymar ), and considering us spending only 70m in the summer, I don't find any particular reasons for not coughing a 100m offer for Kouilbaly or something and see what will happen. He would have been worth the money. If we make a 100m offer, gets refused, or they ask for 200m, that's when we say "ok, we tried, we didn't save our money, no one to be blamed here" and we move on with our heads up.

I'm not sure why you're blaming PL teams for closing window early ? I mean pretty much only 2 teams suffered from it, us and Spurs, and that was even World Cup year. Everyone else prepared themselves for that outcome and finished what they wanted early. Surely if only 2 clubs suffered from it, it's their own problem, not the rest ?

 

[Beachryan]

If you were to plot our progress statistically, using really simple metrics like shots taken, chances created, chances conceded, goals for and goals against, our trajectory is the wrong way and has been for a year.

We are not progressing. Our young players are not progressing. Our defense is not progressing, and our attack is somehow getting worse despite adding Sanchez.

Every way you could measure progress under Jose, he is failing.

And he's blinded some people with talk about signings, because it's the only thing he's tested with fans and has stuck.

Listen, the emperor has no clothes. It's not more complicated than that .

 

[Cassidy]

As far as I'm concerned we're starting to get interested Skriniar for Jan. There were thoughts about Kouilbaly in summer but we didn't make any move. You don't know if a player is available or not till you make actual offer ( see Ronaldo or Neymar ), and considering us spending only 70m in the summer, I don't find any particular reasons for not coughing a 100m offer for Kouilbaly or something and see what will happen. He would have been worth the money. If we make a 100m offer, gets refused, or they ask for 200m, that's when we say "ok, we tried, we didn't save our money, no one to be blamed here" and we move on with our heads up.

I'm not sure why you're blaming PL teams for closing window early ? I mean pretty much only 2 teams suffered from it, us and Spurs, and that was even World Cup year. Everyone else prepared themselves for that outcome and finished what they wanted early. Surely if only 2 clubs suffered from it, it's their own problem, not the rest ?

Well thats not correct.
Also I don't blame them I am saying that the window closing early in a world cup year was a contributing factor to our summer.

 

[Reddy Rederson]

Guardiola won't leave though. He is like a kid in a candy shop, getting whatever he wants at City in terms of transfers. Like the proverbial mad scientist being handed the keys to the laboratory. To his credit, he delivers the goods too if backed to the skies.

Remember he was letting his friends leak out info. that he considered City to be as big a club as Villarreal etc when he was under pressure in his first season. That was a Jose-esque tactic of deflecting pressure, making himself look bigger than the club as though he was doing the club a major favor by managing them. But all that has been swept under the carpet since his methods started working.

I don’t know if won’t ever leave, but City have made it pretty comfortable for him. I do see him getting the support and freedom he does at city anywhere else. He’d be mad to leave.

 

[Leftback99]

If you were to plot our progress statistically, using really simple metrics like shots taken, chances created, chances conceded, goals for and goals against, our trajectory is the wrong way and has been for a year.

We are not progressing. Our young players are not progressing. Our defense is not progressing, and our attack is somehow getting worse despite adding Sanchez.

Every way you could measure progress under Jose, he is failing.

And he's blinded some people with talk about signings, because it's the only thing he's tested with fans and has stuck.

Listen, the emperor has no clothes. It's not more complicated than that .

You can also say that during that time we've:
- lost Ibrahimovic (replaced with Lukaku but not an upgrade),
- experienced players have left (Rooney/Carrick)
- or declined (Valencia),
- the defence has been even more injury prone (Jones, Rojo, Bailly).
We've added Matic and replaced Mkhitaryan with Sanchez but overall squad wise it's not a recipe for significant improvement.

 

[Adisa]

Just a hypothetical. To what extent do people think things would have been different if we signed a CB?.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Just a hypothetical. To what extent do people think things would have been different if we signed a CB?.

Think defence would have been better but more importantly would have avoided the mourinho tantrum and poor start. Not enough to be on top but should be comfortably 2 or 3.