Klopp will have finished inside Champions league places for the third time in a row this year having got Liverpool to three finals aswell against City, Sevilla and Real Madrid. How many titles do you think Mourinho'd had with us if those teams had been in our way?
The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked
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My point was that both sides were in bad shape before we both started spending big. We've been more successful under Mourinho than Liverpool has been under Klopp, but we fell behind once they targeted their problematic areas during last summer, spending 100m more than us. We spent less than Everton. Clubs need to spend bigger just to retain their position, if they want to improve the sums get bigger. Not saying Mourinho hasn't signed a few absolute flops, but the argument of other clubs being in worse condition than us doesn't seem like the best one. Will probably change my mind if we're behind the sides you mentioned in April though.
In my opinion, the next manager that comes in has to grab the football by the scruff of the net and map back to the philosophy of Manchester United.
I'm willing to go through a few years of pain if we find the right managerial fit who builds the club into something we can be proud of, like the great Sir Alex did. I want a community of players aligned to our crest.
How beautiful would it be if McKenna and Carrick took us forward to an era of attacking and successful football reliant on a mixture energy, youth, academy, superstardom and experience?
One can dream...
I'm willing to go through a few years of pain if we find the right managerial fit who builds the club into something we can be proud of, like the great Sir Alex did. I want a community of players aligned to our crest.
How beautiful would it be if McKenna and Carrick took us forward to an era of attacking and successful football reliant on a mixture energy, youth, academy, superstardom and experience?
One can dream...
Klopp has consistently got top 4. An achievement Poch did with far less money, again I'm not sure what your point is in all of this (sorry, probably my fault for entering the discussion midway!)
How many titles do I think Mourinho would have got if he had a free reign on spending as much as Pep? God knows. Maybe still none? Maybe one? But I can say for sure the gap wouldn't be so big between 1st and 2nd whatever it may be.
I sometimes feel that, with the Glazers in charge, this is the only way we'll ever challenge again. I know they've invested a lot but the second we seem to be reasonably stable the transfer funds are tightened (e.g the last summer and the post ronaldo years). The only way we can challenge is to make sure we get the transfers bang on, bring in young players from the academy and play aggressive, attacking football.
Classic example of cherry picking to fit a narrative. United fans would kill to have the squad and manager Liverpool does. Yeah they are the main rivals and won feck all but they had a chance had Salah not gotten injured, and they thoroughly outplayed City twice last year (even this season City gave them more respect than I've ever seen them give a team). Aside from that they are a well-drilled, feared attacking side. We are talking about probably the best counter-attacking team in Europe who were forced to sell a genuine world class talent (Coutinho) less than a year ago.
But don't mind me. I wouldn't want the facts get in the way of your agenda and "selective" narrative.
What's selective about what I said? It was all facts. They finished behind us no matter how you want to twist it. No I would not kill to have Liverpool's squad and manager
. They've won nothing .Yes he did. You can talk about us but Klopps squad had no outstanding players whatsover apart from Coutinho and Liverpool as a club did not have the resources or renown to sign players from the same tier that United could. i.e Falcao, Di Maria, Pogba and Ibrahimovic. So there was no way he could kick start his project in the same way Mourinho could.
Yes, we progressed but never convincingly so apart from a 6 month spell and the state of us this season has undone any hope left over from what wasn't a great season for us despite finishing 2nd in the league. Yes there were problems in the summer but there's no way that our current situation could be excused by that. Tottenham had a much worse summer but they've managed to stay floating despite it.
To include Klopps first season in comparison seems a bit unfair aswell considering he took over a dodgy looking side, sitting in 10th position by the time he took charge. Sinc then though he's finished in the top 4 twice while currently being in the race for the title sitting only 2 points behind City. By the end the end of the season we'll be looking at our second finish outside of the top 4 under Mourinhos management, that's not acceptable at all considering the money spent and how little progression we've made.
Yes, Mourinhos got us to three finals but we were the strongest team going in to all of them and won two, how many titles do you think Mourinho would have got us if instead of Ajax and Southampton we'd have come up against City and Sevilla?
You really think people would've been out in force calling for the head of the manager who just got us to a champions league final smashing the likes of City on the way whilst finishing top 4? I' not saying people would be creaming themselves but it's at least as legitimate as what Jose achieved with us last season to earn himself his third season. There'd have been little doubt about the progression made and it's showing this season for them aswell.
I don't mind spending when you spend well. We've spent poorly and without vision.
Yeah, you would rather be languishing in 8th and getting outplayed by the likes of Brighton. DeludedWhat's selective about what I said? It was all facts. No I would not kill to have Liverpool's squad and manager
Didn't know this season had ended? Last season did end though, they couldn't beat us, and finished behind us.Yeah, you would rather be languishing in 8th and getting outplayed by the likes of Brighton. Deluded
Also progressed further in UCL, but of course that doesn't fit your narrative so you leave that out. Predictable.
Wait, you honestly think United will catch Liverpool this season? You honestly think they aren't a better team?
Like I said before, deluded.Still didn't win anything
.Still clearly a better a team by all objective opinions yet you still defend Mourinho's stone age football tactics.Still didn't win anything
"But but but but, dey didn't win nuffin'!"
DeludedI don't think it means anything if a manager progresses further in the Champions League if they don't go all the way. Tremendous cup run and credit should be given, but a manager needs to prove his worth on all fronts. Klopp has generally struggled with consistency throughout the course of a season in my opinion (due to his style of play mostly).Also progressed further in UCL, but of course that doesn't fit your narrative so you leave that out. Predictable.
Wait, you honestly think United will catch Liverpool this season? You honestly think they aren't a better team?
I know you weren't specifically asking me, but yeah I don't think United will catch Liverpool this season. I don't think that makes Klopp a better manager than Jose though.
That’s true. So the question is, is it because he choose poorly, the players have bottled the PL or are the scouts just not finding good quality players to choose from?
Bailey looked good to start with, IMO. After his injury or maybe a little before he started to look rubbish.
Lindelof has been rubbish, there’s no hiding from that. But he has been pretty good of late. Maybe he’s about to show us all what the scouts saw?
Pogba, hit and miss imo.
Matic, started strong but has been run into the ground by Jose. He was supposed to have surgery after the World Cup and then by out until round about now I remember reading before the season started. He had the surgery and was back way before he should have been. Couple that with playing every 90 minutes we’ve had since he got here, and you can have some sympathy for why the guy has turned to shit.
Dalot, I’ve not seen enough to form an opinion.
Miki, was a terrible choice. Long before he ever got here his nickname was miss-hit-ataryan.
Sanchez. What’s can say about Sanchez, why wouldn’t you want him? He was one in two player. Why he’s shit here? Don’t know. The style of play might not suit him.
Fred not seen enough to be sure, but he seems ok. But could easily become another miki.
So what is it that’s wrong? It’s everything. It’s Jose, it’s woodward, it’s the scouts, it’s the coaching staff, it’s everything else in between. Moving Woodward on, won’t sort us out. Moving Jose on, won’t sort us out. Moving everything else on, won’t sort us out. But IMO if we are to get rid of Jose, it needs to be someone else to pick his replacement. Woody has had three chances and not got it right. If we are to say Jose need to go because he’s bought the wrong players, surely that same logic has to apply to woody? And if nothing else he’s bought three defensive minded managers in a row. 40plus thousand fans chanting “attack attack attack” under lvg, and ed sacks him for Jose. If the majority opinion here is that we want attacking football, there’s no way Ed is going to give us that any more than Jose will, IMO.
We have been but we've had alot of luck on getting the titles we have, luck that Liverpool didn't have. Luck in games, we had to go to ET against Anderlecht and an absolute howler away from getting knocked out vs Celta Vigo. Besides that if you count our league finishes under the respective managers the result will not land in Mourinhos favor.
At least with Liverpool you could identify clear problem areas for them to adress, we've been problematic all over the field no matter what Mourinho claims. If anything I think the board saved us from another expensive flop in the summer considering Mourinho wanted one of Mina, Maguire, Alderweireld and Boateng.
No worries mate!
I'd have Poch too if I could to be fair.
Forget about what Pep has spent, we don't have the resources that City have so it's a fight we can never win. With time and the right manager the advantage of their financial backing will reduce exponentially as they'll eventually hit a ceiling for how good their squad can become, if they haven't already. and we'll catch up. There are no indications to me though that we're going to get to the level we aspire to under Mourinho, he just not the man for the job.
Yeah they're so much better that they finished behind us and cant beat usStill clearly a better a team by all objective opinions yet you still defend Mourinho's stone age football tactics.
"But but but but, dey didn't win nuffin'!"
Maybe to you it was, but it was the start of the plan to get pep. They tried to get him in 2012, he refused. They went and got his friend and former dof at Barca with the plan to bring him in at a later date. Pep to city was a plan 4 years in the making. Obviously not ever transfer during that time was for pep, but the long game was absolutely about getting him.
Their best player went off early and even still they outplayed Madrid for large parts of the match. I enjoy watching football, not looking at final results. It was clear last season that Liverpool were building one of the better sides in Europe. Blatantly clear, so I'm not going to beat Klopp over the head for losing a final to a team they were underdogs against while losing their best player in the process. That's just silly and shows a lack of critical thinking.
And they stuggled, in my opinion, b/c Liverpool had a razor thin squad last season. They've addressed that and it shows.
Never said that's the only reason he's a better manager than Mourinho. What makes him a better manager is mainly down to what I see on the pitch. I see a well-drilled, pressing, counter-attacking team that makes players like Milner, Henderson, and Ox look like world beaters. I see a manager who's team carries out a gameplan effectively regardless of who is playing or not (didn't miss a beat after selling Coutinho). That's why he is a better manager.
And what players did we have in the squad LVG left to aspire confidence to the start of project ? At this moment we had only 3, De Gea, Martial and Rashford, a GK and 2 inconsistent youngsters in their first year in premier league. Both squads were nearly similar when it comes to personel, 1 or 2 good players surrounded by dross. Also saying Liverpool don't have resources is pretty naive I'll say. There's no club in England that doesn't have resources. They are a very, very rich club, but they were trying to achieve good results while spending as less as possible. When they actually decided it's time to start competing they splashedthe cash. Each club in England has enough money to spend, it's up to them to decide of they want to spend.
I find it quite ironic that people are saying the trophies we won under Mourinho were against midtable clubs while Klopp faced this and this in final. I mean we all watched each team routes to the final don't we? Klopp had it only tough in his Europe League whn he faced strong opponents, but his draw in League Cup and CL were piss easy. In LC, they faced Bournemouth, Southmapton and Stoke. The final was literally their only strong game in the tournament and he lost it. In CL, he faced only City and Madrid in the whole run, his group was pretty easy and he drew Porto and Roma in KO. Why are these not mentioned but the finals are only ? His Europe League campaign was the only tough one. He's having a tough group this year and they are struggling to get out of it now. Some perspective please. We ont need some perspective when it comes to this. Maybe if we had stonger draws than this he wouldn't have even reached these 2 finals to start with.
I'm not now talking about us spending or not in last summer to bring Spurs in. I said that the conflict and dilemma between Mourinho and Ed fecked up the squad and led to us going backward this season. We're performing far below our level this season and Mourinho needs to take blame for this, no one is saying otherwise and it's not the point.
The point is it's weird to keep mentioning Liverpool as a stick to beat us with while I don't have anything extraordinary Klopp did last 3 years to claim he progressed the team in terms of results far more than Mourinho in his last 2 seasons. Both did very decent job and Mourinho had done very good progress on the team he got LVG got this season. I felt that this season we should have went on with more improvement in the team regarding both personels and coaching, and it should have been expected thanks to the steady progress we were doing last 2 years but it's all fecked up now between Mourinho and board in their directions for the team, which is frustrating to see that we're going backward after finally stabilizing the ship.
They are starting to compete on league this season after they decided to splash the cash on their weakness, and Klopp himself admitted he was fool when he was talking about Pogba money after what they spent on VVD and Alisson, and admitted that money was needed to be spent to improve the squad, so I'm not sure why he's made as a case of merely improving what he had and that's it when he himself contradicted himself and considered himself a fool for mocking Pogba's money.
People would have called for Klopp's head, I ensure you they would. Grass is always greener on the other side for some, remember. They were always be moaners. There were moaners during Fergie era as well, moaning about zombie fooball while we were dominating the fecking league. It's the nature of football fans that's all.
Finally, I agree that again, Klopp plays better and more entertaining football than Mourinho, but that's Mourinho for you. That has always been his style and will be after he leaves. You don't hire him to play good on the eye football. He's basically applying his brand of football here, playing ugly and securing results by grinding. It's not a surprise for anyone and as much as Klopp is applying his brand at Liverpool, Mourinho did here too, they are just 2 polar opposite to each other. If we wanted to play exciting football, we shouldn't have hired Mourinho to start with. He wasn't going to change at this point of his career imo. Should have searched for a different profile of a manager then.
"But we won 2 mickey mouse cups 2 years ago, lost to mighty Sevilla, and finished 16 points off top while hoofing it Fellani. Also look at Mourinho's CV."Yeah they're so much better that they finished behind us and cant beat us
Deluded
Thought last few pages was a good discussion between differing opinions, nobody calling each other names and nobody being a cnut. Thanks for providing some variety in that department."But we won 2 mickey mouse cups 2 years ago, lost to mighty Sevilla, and finished 16 points off top while hoofing it Fellani. Also look at Mourinho's CV."
Deluded
You cant handle the fact that the apparently much better Liverpool team finished behind us and cannot beat us when we meet? Awww."But we won 2 mickey mouse cups 2 years ago, lost to mighty Sevilla, and finished 16 points off top while hoofing it Fellani. Also look at Mourinho's CV."
Deluded
He's lost something like 5 finals in a row? Or at least all together. For a top level manager meant to be better than Mourinho, it doesn't quite add up. I'm not sure you can make a circumstantial case for all of them.
Yeah I agree he has the depth this season, and he has 10 points on us. But a lot of people actually see Liverpool a bit worse this year than last (bizzare given the points). We will just have to see how the season pans out.
I do agree that they tend to look more drilled than we do right now. But if he wins feck all then it doesn't mean anything.
Following your logic, then the GK is always at fault for not preventing the goal. The initiator of the problem was Sanchez poor choice and you have not denied that the other passing options were better choices. Its like Pogba losing the ball and Smalling putting in a rash tackle that gave away a penalty. The genesis of the problem was Pogba losing the ball.Can't you see the irony?
My argument was based on the fact that Toby made a mistake, which was the main reason Tottenham conceded and you're discarding my based in fact argument for your hypothetical "what could have been" explanation. To make things even more ridiculous even then Toby himself could have made a better choice, pass it instantly, hoof it etc.
No it is not. His best suit is that he is a very good defender (and the recovery on that PSV play shows it) and a much better defender than all the CBs we have. But you dont care about how well he can defend but only how well he can play out from the back.
According to you, he is an average defender, whose strong suit is playing from the back. That is why he was considered one of the best CBs in the PL and so much fits the profile of the type of defender Mourinho would want. It is clear who is delusional
By your argument, Messi is alternates between being an average player and a great one?
Or you can't handle the fact that Mourinho is doing a worse job than nearly all the other top 6 managers with a larger transfer budget than all but one, so you resort to the overused "He's never won anything, therefore he can't be good" grade-school argument to deflect from his obvious shortcomings.
I'm merely amused by your commitment to a single individual rather than the club you allege to support. Like I said in my first post, don't mind me. I'm just here to point and laugh.
That admits that we are no worse than if we had kept Mkhi, with the potential to be clearly better. The question then becomes why Sanchez is not performing at his maximal potential.
I didn't call anyone names and I'm curious why you didn't call out the post who started off with "he didn't win anything
" as a responseI support Manchester United. Manchester United finished ahead of your dear Liverpool. Sorry.
Finals are single elimination matches with different circumstances. To ignore the fact they got there is just faulty logic. So is he better off losing in the semi-finals so he doesn't have a poor record in the finals? It's faulty logic at best. How many of those finals was he favored in? Is Pottechino a bad coach b/c he hasn't won despite having a fraction of the resources? Shouldn't every top club been after Raneri? I could go on but you get my point.
Also it depends how much you care about at CV as opposed to current results. I don't care about a CV, b/c past success doesn't guarantee future success. That's the type of mindset that doomed Arsenal. For me, I look at progression and current results and with that in mind there are at least 4 PL managers above Mourinho.
Based on your history, you support Mourinho. I support good football and objective reasoning.
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In hindsight, we would have been better off keeping Miki. We made Sanchez one of the highest paid footballers on the planet yet he is performing no better than a Championship player. Not to mention his inclusion in the starting lineup was at the expense of our most in-form player at the time, Martial.
There could be any number of reasons behind Sanchez' poor form, most likely reason being he simply hasn't adjusted to Jose's dated/negative system.
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I don't think it's faulty logic to say a manager tipped to be better than Mourinho shouldn't be excused for losing 5 finals in a row and 6 out of his last 7. Jose Mourinho might be boring as feck to watch compared to Jurgen Klopp, but he's also been a big game manager and generally gets big results even when he's the underdog.
I do agree that you can't only go by silverware, or else Juande Ramos would be a better manager than Poch for Spurs (ha, yeah right). But if you spend big you have to win something. Even if it's a tin cup. Klopp shouldn't be excused going forward for this, because of late he has certainly spent whereas Poch has not as much. League consistency is also important. Will Jurgen finish above Jose this year? Most likely as he has a 10 point jump as we have the debate. He has a good chance of getting dumped out of the group stages of the Champions League too so it may well allow him to focus even more on the league. But we are only 1/3rd of the way through the season so I'd rather not conclude one manager is better than another just yet. I also don't base it off a single season. Often managers can have a shit season with a club, Ancelotti at Bayern or Klopp at Dortmund or whatever. You sort of need to look at the whole tenure at their club rather than isolating single seasons which can be skewed from from a slow start like ours.
Klopp: Joined October 2015:
15/16 - 60 points 8th
16/17 - 76pts 4th
17/18 - 75 pts 4th
18/19 - ?
Cup Finals: 3. Cup wins: 0.
Jose Mourinho: Joined May 2016.
16/17:69 points. 6th
17/18: 81 points. 2nd.
18/19: ?
Cup Finals: 3. Cup wins: 2
Overwall win %: Klopp - 53%. Mourinho - 59%.
I care about progression too. And I'm not going to go out there and say Jose Mourinho is the better manager and its clear as day. I don't think it is. I think one manager has beautiful football but no plan B, no consistency in the domestic league and is better suited to cups. I find another often dull to watch but extremely pragmatic and results driven with a better CV.
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Based on your posts in this thread, I dont care what you think.
Losing 6 out 7 major finals is a fairly strong indicator that Klopp lacks the mental fortitude required to cross the finish line, by extension so do his players. Liverpool's complete and utter capitulation to Real Madrid in the CL final serves to bolster that fact. Klopp has picked up the tag 'serial loser" for good reason.
When you say progression, are suggesting that Liverpool could win something next year?
/shrug
Again this argument largely ignores circumstance. Perhaps I care too much about context and performance rather than merely result, but to ignore it completely isn't a debate worth having. Liverpool sold Coutinho and still advanced to a UCL final, qualified for UCL, while playing attractive football and going toe to toe with City. I'd take that over dull football, 2nd place and laying an egg vs Sevilla in the knockout rounds.
Two years ago is two years ago. Based on current results and the progression from last season can you honestly say Mourinho is the superior manager? I can't even fathom how that's the case.
You're speaking in generalities and cliches. Is it better to lose in the semi finals (or in Mourinho's case knockout rounds) so your cup final record is respectable? Doesn't pass the laugh test.
Liverpool should be challenging this season and it looks like they are. United should comfortably be top 4 and they aren't. Simple stuff.
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