The murder of Sarah Everard | Couzens sentenced to a whole-life order

[Denis79]

Its what he deserves, its a pity the death penalty isn't an option as the ground is the best place for him.

No he needs to suffer. Death would be too merciful.

 

[RedSky]

No he needs to suffer. Death would be too merciful.

Agreed, a long, dull life in Prison, hopefully in a group full of people who hate coppers would be ideal.

 

[diarm]

Just reading back through this- can you quantify these? This case more seems a ghastly outlier, rather than of several instances of murder by police, let alone the rapes?

Sorry, I'm up the walls today and only seeing this now. I'll have a look for a few more articles when I can but this one stands out from recent reports.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-sex-abuse-claims-against-metropolitan-police

 

[sullydnl]

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Some timing.

 

[Ludens the Red]

I have no ideas regarding apps but from my perspective you have been coming across as a bit sensitive on this topic, maybe with your experience that's understandable but people with little knowledge are trying to come up with some ideas which will help not be a pain the bum about, maybe we could all take a step back and get some perspective.

However I'm not understanding your second paragraph at all I'm afraid. I don't understand the part about thinking it would be said about females etc.

I think we can talk about our feelings surrounding the case regarding what was known by his colleagues and what should be reported in future all we like, this is a forum and thread for that purpose and standards even amongst some top officers are clearly lacking. We should all want better from our police force than for someone with a record on exposing himself and openly discussing what we wouldn't think is acceptable being a police officer with some very obvious powers over citizens.

I think my posting has been fine to be honest. There’s no sensitivity. It’s all based on actual practicalities. It’s only one poster I was critical of because he said something quite silly. Whatever sort of tone you think I have is probably more down to the simple process of answering and retorting to the things people are saying.

The accusations are that police kept it quiet in regards to him harassing females right? and the implication is that he was allowed to get away with it?
By process of logic and elimination any reports of sexual harassment would have had to come from female officers. He probably wasn’t harassing men and probably wasn’t harassing women in front of other men.

Nobody has actually come forward alleging anything against him. This may be due to what we know in that women do not always feel comfortable reporting these issues for a number of reasons.

Now if your viewpoint is that this was allowed to happen because nobody reported Couzens behaviour because they were protecting him etc. Then unless I’m going bonkers here and the group he targeted wasn’t female officers, then those are the ones by process of elimination you would be suggesting were ‘protecting him’ Does that make sense ?

Maybe people have their stories mixed up but there aren’t a load of official complaints against Couzens that the higher ups in the Met decided to bury.

 

[Scarlett Dracarys]

1. Call someone immediately so they're aware of the situation.
2. Flag down literally anyone, a car, a house, anyone to be there with you.

Running away seems utterly mental. Why would you turn your back on someone pretending to be Police? Get as many people around you as soon as possible is surely better?

You have to draw attention to yourself and the situation at hand. You just need a few witnesses. The issue with this is if you're alone or in an isolated area, where do you go and who do you turn to?
The fact that it's a police officer makes this even more fecked up.

 

[Scarlett Dracarys]

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Some timing.

Not surprising though. He knew the system and worked around it. He knew what CSIs look for and how to cover his tracks. Thank God for DNA.

 

[oates]

By process of logic and elimination any reports of sexual harassment would have had to come from female officers. He probably wasn’t harassing men and probably wasn’t harassing women in front of other men.

I see what you are saying but why would it need to be a woman reporting his comments, discussions, or for that matter his record on Exposure? Any man hearing these conversations, his likes, fetishes of violent sex etc could put 2 and 2 together and think to themselves 'Is this guy all here? This sort of bloke is going to do something dangerous/unpleasant/abuse his authority or 'I just have concerns here' and report that to his line manager. This is what I would expect any member of my staff team to do if relevant things were known, peoples well-being would be at risk.

Don't we all want, at least expect a high standard from police officers who have some specialised powers and represent all of our other police officers?

 

[Frosty]

This all feels like peeling an onion. Plenty more revelations to go I think.

 

[Steven Seagull]

Have to say I think @Leroy The Red has spoken most informatively and eloquently against the tide here. An impossible situation to be in handled very well. I assume and hope he is a police officer. Sounds like a good man

 

[Ferguson’s Hairdryer]

I just hope that in the mist of this appalling situation we don’t lose sight of the fact that women, children and men for the most part have very little to fear from the police and the vast majority of crimes are committed by people who we do not want the police to feel afraid to stop be they men or women.

 

[GueRed]

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All cops are bastards

and racist pigs

shocker

 

[Withnail]

Genuinely concerning that colleagues spoke supportively of him after he pleaded guilty.

https://inews.co.uk/news/sarah-ever...s-support-wayne-couzens-judge-reveals-1226708

 

[Buster15]

All cops are bastards

and racist pigs

shocker

And as I have mentioned on a number of occasions here, never trust the police.
Not just me saying that. Even the police force themselves are saying that exact same thing.
Don't get into a police car with a single police man on your own.

And the police still trying to maintain that they police 'by consent'

 

[Buster15]

I just hope that in the mist of this appalling situation we don’t lose sight of the fact that women, children and men for the most part have very little to fear from the police and the vast majority of crimes are committed by people who we do not want the police to feel afraid to stop be they men or women.

And the majority of crimes are never investigated.

 

[diarm]

I’m afraid you’re just well off the mark here and clearly haven’t considered the practical side of this or the potential problems. To start with if officers are stopping people in plain clothes they should be identifying themselves with their badge. Bringing out your phone and opening up an app is not practical. A police officer can leave behind a radio or vehicle behind but they can’t leave their phone? Their phone can’t run out of battery? Lose signal? And Couzens was off duty as has been stated numerous times. How would this app have prevented this or had any effect whatsoever if he was off duty. You also seemed to have missed the fact without the app he was still caught.

“Any officer on shift caught not carrying his phone would be breaking the law”.
I think there should be some reflection on this sentence.

Please explain how witnesses would have been able to realise this was not a legitimate action by an officer ….. by the use of this app??

I don’t know what planet you’re living on where you think body worn cameras would cost more to implement than phones with top of the range actual positional gps trackers for 150, 000 officers in the U.K.

As for the last bit, again I don’t know what planet you’re on or where you live but thankfully in the U.K. we do not regularly have officers in uniform murdering and raping people. And please explain where this magic money is going to be found.

How is taking your phone out of your pocket that much more impractical than taking a wallet and identity card out? If a police officer can't keep a modern smartphone charged for his shift, he doesn't really have much business being a police officer. That's like saying why should armed officers have guns when guns can run out of bullets.

A badge is fine, but as seen in this case, a badge looks the same whether the officer is on duty or off. My whole point about the piece of software is that it wouldn't look the same when the officer was off duty. He wouldn't be able to simply approach a girl within sight of other people, and trick her into thinking he was on duty and "arrest" her. She'd have been able to see that he wasn't on shift and could've alerted the people nearby that something was wrong.

You suggest I have missed the fact that he was caught - I'd say you seem to be missing the fact that an officer in uniform, with a police identification badge, "arrested", raped, killed and burnt a young girl. He was able to do that because of the complete power and lack of restrictions placed on off duty police officers.

A £50 phone will have GPS tracking thesedays. Anyone with Google maps on their phone is already being tracked to within a few metres at all times. The idea that this is some state of the art, outrageously expensive and futuristic flight of fancy is silly. It will be the norm eventually - I just don't see any reason not to fasttrack it after this case.

 

[diarm]

Out of curiosity when an officer puts someone in handcuffs or attempts arrest for say example, carrying an offensive weapon, carrying drugs or worse having committed a serious assault on another. At what point during this interaction should that suspect be taken out of his/her handcuffs and allowed to scan the QR code on the officers phone

In such situations, when does the officer show the suspect his identification badge? I'm less worried about the armed criminal, drug dealers and murderers, and more concerned with the lone woman being targeted by an off duty officer in this case.

Secondly I feel like investing in such top of the range software and distributing it to police officers would be a bit of a waste. I’d quite like to see such incredible gps tracking software used on say, registered sex offenders for example..there are 100,000 of them in the U.K. I think this would be a much better use of public money because ultimately that’s who would foot the bill.

I don't see that it needs to be either or. There are huge sums of public money spent on the police force each year - I don't see the harm in allocating some of that money to holding police more accountable. I also don't support your insistence that it would demand NASA levels of technology and expense. It would take some admin and a change of mindset within an old boys club, but it wouldn't necessarily cost that much relatively speaking.

 

[Agent Red]

Genuinely concerning that colleagues spoke supportively of him after he pleaded guilty.

https://inews.co.uk/news/sarah-ever...s-support-wayne-couzens-judge-reveals-1226708

I agree. That in itself is one of the biggest signs there is a wider cultural issue in the force. Why on earth would anyone speak up for him knowing he’d committed this crime?

Marina Hyde has written a good piece on things this morning, as ever. Made the point that despite having known this sentencing was coming up for months, it’s alarming they didn’t feel the need to come up with anything better in their response than all this useless “flag down a bus” advice.

 

[Oldyella]

How is taking your phone out of your pocket that much more impractical than taking a wallet and identity card out? If a police officer can't keep a modern smartphone charged for his shift, he doesn't really have much business being a police officer. That's like saying why should armed officers have guns when guns can run out of bullets.

A badge is fine, but as seen in this case, a badge looks the same whether the officer is on duty or off. My whole point about the piece of software is that it wouldn't look the same when the officer was off duty. He wouldn't be able to simply approach a girl within sight of other people, and trick her into thinking he was on duty and "arrest" her. She'd have been able to see that he wasn't on shift and could've alerted the people nearby that something was wrong.

You suggest I have missed the fact that he was caught - I'd say you seem to be missing the fact that an officer in uniform, with a police identification badge, "arrested", raped, killed and burnt a young girl. He was able to do that because of the complete power and lack of restrictions placed on off duty police officers.

A £50 phone will have GPS tracking thesedays. Anyone with Google maps on their phone is already being tracked to within a few metres at all times. The idea that this is some state of the art, outrageously expensive and futuristic flight of fancy is silly. It will be the norm eventually - I just don't see any reason not to fasttrack it after this case.

An app that can show police badge no, and on a green or red screen to mark on or off duty really shouldn't be that hard and like you say, no different to showing a badge, post arrest if need be but still gives lone women the opportunity to shout out if they are concerned and its not shown or is red.

 

[Ibi Dreams]

I agree. That in itself is one of the biggest signs there is a wider cultural issue in the force. Why on earth would anyone speak up for him knowing he’d committed this crime?

As well as that, he was in a WhatsApp group trading racist, misogynistic and homophobic messages with some other fellow officers. They are being investigated, but some of them are still on duty at this time

Anyone sending and receiving those kinds of messages with Couzens should not be a cop.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

How is taking your phone out of your pocket that much more impractical than taking a wallet and identity card out? If a police officer can't keep a modern smartphone charged for his shift, he doesn't really have much business being a police officer. That's like saying why should armed officers have guns when guns can run out of bullets.

A badge is fine, but as seen in this case, a badge looks the same whether the officer is on duty or off. My whole point about the piece of software is that it wouldn't look the same when the officer was off duty. He wouldn't be able to simply approach a girl within sight of other people, and trick her into thinking he was on duty and "arrest" her. She'd have been able to see that he wasn't on shift and could've alerted the people nearby that something was wrong.

You suggest I have missed the fact that he was caught - I'd say you seem to be missing the fact that an officer in uniform, with a police identification badge, "arrested", raped, killed and burnt a young girl. He was able to do that because of the complete power and lack of restrictions placed on off duty police officers.

A £50 phone will have GPS tracking thesedays. Anyone with Google maps on their phone is already being tracked to within a few metres at all times. The idea that this is some state of the art, outrageously expensive and futuristic flight of fancy is silly. It will be the norm eventually - I just don't see any reason not to fasttrack it after this case.

But didn't the police say that it is expected for an off duty cop to intervene, even if they're holidaying or in plain clothes? So having the ID green or red would make no difference on whether they could or should arrest someone they see committing a crime. So an app wouldn't make a difference.

 

[diarm]

But didn't the police say that it is expected for an off duty cop to intervene, even if they're holidaying or in plain clothes? So having the ID green or red would make no difference on whether they could or should arrest someone they see committing a crime. So an app wouldn't make a difference.

Intervene for what? To stop a violent criminal committing a serious crime? Fine.

Stopping a girl walking home on her own at night? No thanks.

 

[Pexbo]

Intervene for what? To stop a violent criminal committing a serious crime? Fine.

Stopping a girl walking home on her own at night? No thanks.

Bingo

 

[Ludens the Red]

How is taking your phone out of your pocket that much more impractical than taking a wallet and identity card out? If a police officer can't keep a modern smartphone charged for his shift, he doesn't really have much business being a police officer. That's like saying why should armed officers have guns when guns can run out of bullets.

A badge is fine, but as seen in this case, a badge looks the same whether the officer is on duty or off. My whole point about the piece of software is that it wouldn't look the same when the officer was off duty. He wouldn't be able to simply approach a girl within sight of other people, and trick her into thinking he was on duty and "arrest" her. She'd have been able to see that he wasn't on shift and could've alerted the people nearby that something was wrong.

You suggest I have missed the fact that he was caught - I'd say you seem to be missing the fact that an officer in uniform, with a police identification badge, "arrested", raped, killed and burnt a young girl. He was able to do that because of the complete power and lack of restrictions placed on off duty police officers.

A £50 phone will have GPS tracking thesedays. Anyone with Google maps on their phone is already being tracked to within a few metres at all times. The idea that this is some state of the art, outrageously expensive and futuristic flight of fancy is silly. It will be the norm eventually - I just don't see any reason not to fasttrack it after this case.

In such situations, when does the officer show the suspect his identification badge? I'm less worried about the armed criminal, drug dealers and murderers, and more concerned with the lone woman being targeted by an off duty officer in this case.



I don't see that it needs to be either or. There are huge sums of public money spent on the police force each year - I don't see the harm in allocating some of that money to holding police more accountable. I also don't support your insistence that it would demand NASA levels of technology and expense. It would take some admin and a change of mindset within an old boys club, but it wouldn't necessarily cost that much relatively speaking.

Okay. You’re right. You should present this idea to parliament. Now that I think about it Wayne Couzens probably would have thought twice about his actions if he had an app that showed he was off duty.

 

[diarm]

Okay. You’re right. You should present this idea to parliament. Now that I think about it Wayne Couzens probably would have thought twice about his actions if he had an app that showed he was off duty.

You're whole attitude in this discussion is a bit baffling to be honest. You seem to be taking personal offence at the suggestion of anything that might hold police officers more accountable.

I can't explain myself any clearer than I have. If you still want to take the wrong end of the stick and try to hit me with it, that's up to you.

I haven't ever suggested having an app might have caused Couzens to do anything. I'm suggesting that had there been an identification app on his phone that the murdered girl could've asked to see, which would be a simple improvement on the identification card which already exists, she might have been able to alert the people nearby as to the fact that something was wrong.

That you seem to think this is the most offensive thing that could ever be imposed on a poor and embattered police force is on you.

 

[TheReligion]

How is taking your phone out of your pocket that much more impractical than taking a wallet and identity card out? If a police officer can't keep a modern smartphone charged for his shift, he doesn't really have much business being a police officer. That's like saying why should armed officers have guns when guns can run out of bullets.

A badge is fine, but as seen in this case, a badge looks the same whether the officer is on duty or off. My whole point about the piece of software is that it wouldn't look the same when the officer was off duty. He wouldn't be able to simply approach a girl within sight of other people, and trick her into thinking he was on duty and "arrest" her. She'd have been able to see that he wasn't on shift and could've alerted the people nearby that something was wrong.

You suggest I have missed the fact that he was caught - I'd say you seem to be missing the fact that an officer in uniform, with a police identification badge, "arrested", raped, killed and burnt a young girl. He was able to do that because of the complete power and lack of restrictions placed on off duty police officers.

A £50 phone will have GPS tracking thesedays. Anyone with Google maps on their phone is already being tracked to within a few metres at all times. The idea that this is some state of the art, outrageously expensive and futuristic flight of fancy is silly. It will be the norm eventually - I just don't see any reason not to fasttrack it after this case.

You can arrest people on or off duty though so not sure how this would be of benefit to be honest. The powers are absolute.

 

[diarm]

You can arrest people on or off duty though so not sure how this would be of benefit to be honest. The powers are absolute.

You don't think the authority for a lone police officer to stop and arrest a lone girl, walking home on her own, for a menial offence, is something that needs looking at after this?

Absolute power is not something I consider appropriate for any police officer.

 

[TheReligion]

You don't think the authority for a lone police officer to stop and arrest a lone girl, walking home on her own, for a menial offence, is something that needs looking at after this?

Absolute power is not something I consider appropriate for any police officer.

I'm just telling you that you can make arrests on or off duty so having an app as you described would be pretty pointless.

 

[sullydnl]

I'm just telling you that you can make arrests on or off duty so having an app as you described would be pretty pointless.

Are there any practical changes you think could have an impact on a situation like this? Or is it just inherent in the job that there always has to be that element of unverifiable trust?

 

[diarm]

I'm just telling you that you can make arrests on or off duty so having an app as you described would be pretty pointless.

And I'm saying it wouldn't be if you brought in legislation to protect members of the public from being harassed, intimidated, raped or murdered by off duty police officers.

You seem to be labouring under the impression that I'm advocating an app as the only addition to the unfit for purpose status quo.

Feels like a pretty facetious argument to be honest. Par for the course with you.

 

[TheReligion]

Are there any practical changes you think could have an impact on a situation like this? Or is it just inherent in the job that there always has to be that element of unverifiable trust?

Nah. I don't think it's wise to say officers lose all their powers off duty nor is it practical.

Obviously this case will raise the debate but there's much more good done by off duty cops than bad.

 

[TheReligion]

And I'm saying it wouldn't be if you brought in legislation to protect members of the public from being harassed, intimidated, raped or murdered by off duty police officers.

You seem to be labouring under the impression that I'm advocating an app as the only addition to the unfit for purpose status quo.

Feels like a pretty facetious argument to be honest. Par for the course with you.

I'm not sure why you're so worked up and abusive? I haven't been rude to you. I simply pointed out that the idea of having an app is flawed and explained why.

If you wanted to say that officers lost all their powers when off duty then that's another matter. I don't think that's very practical though given the nature of the job.

 

[diarm]

I'm not sure why you're so worked up and abusive? I haven't been rude to you. I simply pointed out that the idea of having an app is flawed and explained why.

Let's chalk it down to experience. I blame myself for taking you off ignore.

If you wanted to say that officers lost all their powers when off duty then that's another matter. I don't think that's very practical though given the nature of the job.

There should be a very clear and defined difference between an off duty officer being able to step in when coming across a serious crime, and a lone officer having the power to accost a lone female walking home at night time.

I can't quite believe that needs to be explained out loud in 2021.

 

[TheReligion]

Let's chalk it down to experience. I blame myself for taking you off ignore.



There should be a very clear and defined difference between an off duty officer being able to step in when coming across a serious crime, and a lone officer having the power to accost a lone female walking home at night time.

I can't quite believe that needs to be explained out loud in 2021.

Unnecessarily rude and patronising. Not a good look.

Anyway yes there's a difference but as I say there's no practical solution in my opinion and I certainly don't think the app idea would work.

The obvious thing is to work out how someone like him managed to get through recruitment firstly and then look at the Mets seemingly poor handling of him and the complaints made internally. I'm sure these will both be done though and hopefully quickly so the findings can be revealed.

 

[jojojo]

The only advantage I can see to a phone ID would be if every time it opens it gets logged back as an action along with time and location. In practical terms though, I don't think it would have stopped Couzens. By the time he cornered her he was in position to overwhelm her. The only thing that would have helped at that stage would be intervention by a third party. Even if someone did query it, would they really get close enough to know the difference between a screen capture of a badge and an actual active app.

That said, the trouble with everything I've heard so far from senior police etc has been utterly useless, or as this chap suggested:

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[Peter van der Gea]

@diarm , I don't think anyone here thinks we should keep the status quo, and yes, we all agree that his identification showing he's off duty might deter him, maybe, but in practice, he still would be allowed to arrest her when off duty.

Now, maybe there are specific situations where they "shouldn't" be able to arrest off duty, but where do you draw the lines?

Ok, you say she's a woman walking home by herself, but what if she's just stabbed someone? What if it's not a young lady, but an adult male with learning difficulties? And how would the general public know which crimes mean you can be stopped by a plain clothed, off duty cop?

I don't know whether your app idea would have any affect on someone I'll enough to do what he did. At most it'd delay them a while.

 

[diarm]

Unnecessarily rude and patronising. Not a good look.

Anyway yes there's a difference but as I say there's no practical solution in my opinion and I certainly don't think the app idea would work.

The obvious thing is to work out how someone like him managed to get through recruitment firstly and then look at the Mets seemingly poor handling of him and the complaints made internally. I'm sure these will both be done though and hopefully quickly so the findings can be revealed.

Police officer in not thinking an idea that might hold them a little more accountable would be a good idea shocker.

Anyway, I've to head to work and can't argue about this all day. Like I said, the use of technology to police the police will happen eventually - unfortunately, it will probably take a lot more police crimes, rapes or murders before it does.

 

[TheReligion]

The only advantage I can see to a phone ID would be if every time it opens it gets logged back as an action along with time and location. In practical terms though, I don't think it would have stopped Couzens. By the time he cornered her he was in position to overwhelm her. The only thing that would have helped at that stage would be intervention by a third party. Even if someone did query it, would they really get close enough to know the difference between a screen capture of a badge and an actual active app.

That said, the trouble with everything I've heard so far from senior police etc has been utterly useless, or as this chap suggested:

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I think that's a good idea. Not necessarily an app but being able to track that use of warrant card/putting yourself on duty.

Again agree though it wouldn't have prevented what happened.

 

[TheReligion]

Police officer in not thinking an idea that might hold them a little more accountable would be a good idea shocker.

Anyway, I've to head to work and can't argue about this all day. Like I said, the use of technology to police the police will happen eventually - unfortunately, it will probably take a lot more police crimes, rapes or murders before it does.

You're just arguing with yourself to be honest. Enjoy work.

 

[diarm]

@diarm , I don't think anyone here thinks we should keep the status quo, and yes, we all agree that his identification showing he's off duty might deter him, maybe, but in practice, he still would be allowed to arrest her when off duty.

Now, maybe there are specific situations where they "shouldn't" be able to arrest off duty, but where do you draw the lines?

Ok, you say she's a woman walking home by herself, but what if she's just stabbed someone? What if it's not a young lady, but an adult male with learning difficulties? And how would the general public know which crimes mean you can be stopped by a plain clothed, off duty cop?

I don't know whether your app idea would have any affect on someone I'll enough to do what he did. At most it'd delay them a while.

If someone has just stabbed someone, they can expect to be stopped by a police officer.

If someone is walking home from their friends house, they should be able to ask the police officer for proof of identity, purpose and the fact that they are on duty.

I honestly don't think it's as complicated as is being made out here.

There were people who saw this arrest happening. Had Sarah been able to ask to see proof of what he was doing here, she might have been able to alert those people and save her life. Just the possibility of that would quite possibly have deterred him from doing what he did in this way.