The Positive of Being Rubbish Now

[SER19]

Can a loss be a win That's not what this is.

There's plenty of fallout from last night's performance, one that was so bad it could have been from any time under Moyes, Van Gaal, Mourinho or Solskjaer at their worst. Among the noise is a somewhat bizarre early turning on the new manager, who has had 5 games, with players who have consistently failed, and who many have argued for months are a terrible squad built by Solskjaer.

The only positive I can take from how stark the last 5 games have been is that we will have no false 'new manager bounce', which we had under Ole. I saw one thread suggesting we should have stayed with Carrick, which would have been exactly the same and left a summer appointment with the same psychological and personnel mess Rangnick inherited.


Being as poor as we are, is laying very bare just how unsuited some of these players are to a more aggressive approach. In his first two summers at Liverpool, not including free transfers or youth team moves, Klopp let 13 players leave. Can anyone imagine Skrtel, Ibe, Lucas, Sakho, Allen or Benteke among Liverpool's recent success? This is the extent of clearout needed it seems, and I say that as someone who argued that Solskjaer had in fact built a good squad. Maybe he had, but what he hadn't built was one remotely suited for the type of football it seems most of us want. (Incidentally, in those two summers, Klopp brought in Mane, Salah, Robertson, Wijnaldum and others. It was a clear and obvious shift in type of player, and that's what is needed)

So my opinion is to write off these 6 months, see them as a blessing that means hopefully a new progressive manager is inheriting a much clearer, calmer set up with all the weak willed and lazy rooted out.

As painful as it is, I'd sooner this than see us fluke a 10 game winning run that continues to mask all our problems. Blaming Rangnick this early would be a very very foolish stance, when given just how different he is from solskjaer, it's so clear that some problems wont change no matter who is in charge.

There is simply no hiding place for some of these players who can't make simple passes or bother to pressure opponents. Don't give them one.

 

[LoneStar]

I just hope Ralf has some say and actual power when he moves to the new role. He doesn't fit the long term manager requirement anyway. So that's not a big concern.

But if he has no real say, and the new manager is once again forced with these players, then we will effectively need two more seasons to just get rid of the underperformers.

 

[bringbackbebe]

I just hope Ralf has some say and actual power when he moves to the new role. He doesn't fit the long term manager requirement anyway. So that's not a big concern.

But if he has no real say, and the new manager is once again forced with these players, then we will effectively need two more seasons to just get rid of the underperformers.

I completely agree. The good part is Glazers should be able to learn from their mistakes and come out to make us better club at the end of all this, just like they did after Moyes, LVG, Jose. Oh wait...

 

[Maniron]

We are not in limbo or transition, this is it for the foreseeable future.

 

[Someone]

We can't have a clear out every 3 years. It's not even clear to me what direction the club is taking, and we don't know who the next manager is.

 

[youngrell]

The problem at the moment is that absolutely nobody seems to be suited to what we are trying to do. Literally nobody is excelling at the moment, so does that mean they all need to go?

 

[TheLord]

The only positive is that the club will at least sincerely try to get the hottest non-Pep, non-Tuchel, non-Klopp manager in Europe at the moment - Eric ten Hag.

 

[Green_Red]

Deja vu

 

[SuperiorXI]

For me the club have started to go down a path with Rangnick so they have to stick with it now and see where it leads. Can't be chopping and changing all the time. One thing Rangnick has undoubtedly proven is he can build clubs so he deserves the chance.

It would take a series of humiliations to change course.

 

[sillwuka]

I'm not totally convinced by Rangnick but I'm glad that we now have an outsider who can pass judgement on this set of players without any bias.

 

[ForeverRed1]

8/9 years since sir Alex left and we’re still no better off. There’s no positives anymore the faith and belief in this team is nowhere to be seen.


we have dropped points to teams right at the bottom of the table. (Watford, Newcastle, Everton) and barely scrapped past Norwich, thankfully a penalty saved us.

we lost 5-0 at liverpool, 4-1 to Watford, conceded 4 against Leicester. Lost without a fight to city. Lost against young boys.

I guess the positive is it isn’t a shock anymore when we play shite, which makes things a little more calm

 

[sullydnl]

The positive I see is that any top level permanent manager we get (Ten Hag, Poch, whoever) will almost certainly want to introduce a high-level, organised press. And if we're going to struggle this badly in moving in that direction (either due to physical or mental limitations within the squad) then I'm glad some of those teething problems are being dumped on the interim manager. Let him deal with as much of the shit as he can.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

We're such a strange. Signed Ronaldo is at the fag end of his career and despite his goals doesn't really play well with others, and coupled him with an interim manager who liked to implement a high octane style of football.

We need to get the permanent managerial appointment spot on and then commit fully to a vision. feck this half hearted nonsense.

 

[Houdini]

We need the top four desperately. Otherwise we need to pay silly money to second grade players to convince them to play for United. Again.

 

[oates]

We need the top four desperately. Otherwise we need to pay silly money to second grade players to convince them to play for United. Again.

How many more big egos do you need in the club under the present circumstances? I know you are suggesting that this would be after Rangnick is replaced but unless you keep the next manager and keep your confidence in them the next team are going to maintain all of the power.

 

[Fortitude]

A massive problem we have is the majority of the players we have are on wages they are far from worth, which means they'll have little to no takers. Additionally, transfer fees on top makes them impossible to move on.

Even personnel are identified to be a problem, outside of contracts expiring, they will be nigh on impossible to move on.

In turn, we need those players off the books to free up wages for new ones... we're in bigger trouble than it seems and the rot will have to be fixed from the inside out as mass culling is not going to happen with our financial restrictions.

 

[UpWithRivers]

I agree but what I dont understand is that if this is true why is he playing the same players that Ole did. He doesnt have to wait for 4/5 transfer windows. DVB, Martial, Lingard etc or the youth players are right there. If the first team is sht and no good then why play them? Or is it that every single player in the whole squad is sht?

 

[RUCK4444]

The positive I see is that any top level permanent manager we get (Ten Hag, Poch, whoever) will almost certainly want to introduce a high-level, organised press. And if we're going to struggle this badly in moving in that direction (either due to physical or mental limitations within the squad) then I'm glad some of those teething problems are being dumped on the interim manager. Let him deal with as much of the shit as he can.

The fear here though is that if Ralf continues to fail in implementing any sort of press with this set of players then the board might not consider managers like Ten Hag.

Even though the best outcome has to be that we finally make the right appointment with the next full time manager.

My fear is Ralf continues to make us look crap all season, the management decide on somebody like Poch because they think he will be a safer bet who will come in and win nothing and we will lose out on potential next big-level managers like Ten Hag.

There is no light at the end of this tunnel unless we are willing to dig in and take some pain to transition to a modern coach. Trouble is the fans are so tired of putting up with 'transitions' or 'giving time to new managers' that are not providing any results. I can't see a quick fix to this as Ole's style wasn't a pressing style so the players don't necessarily suit that style but I'd agree that the sooner we get the new manager in the better, I don't believe this set of players will buy into a temp manager - they are proving that right now.

 

[Infra-red]

The only positive is that the club will at least sincerely try to get the hottest non-Pep, non-Tuchel, non-Klopp manager in Europe at the moment - Eric ten Hag.

Would Ten Hag be interested in overseeing a rebuild at a club that's high on expectations but low on both competency and patience? He'll likely inherit a team in the Europa Conference League, with a World Cup in the middle of his first season - not exactly an ideal platform for a new manager who will need lots of time on the training pitch to get his ideas across. Nearly a decade on from SAF's retirement and the United manager role still looks like an impossible job.

 

[Zed 101]

The problem with writing these 6 months off means unlikely to get CL next season which make the slim chance of signing players like Haaland and Rice even slimmer

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Ole may have done more damage this club than any of his predecessors did when we look back on his reign.

But I agree with the OP.

We need serious changes in the summer.

 

[AndySmith1990]

The problem with writing these 6 months off means unlikely to get CL next season which make the slim chance of signing players like Haaland and Rice even slimmer

Who cares? We've been picking out one or two big name players every summer for the past 8 years with the hope that they'll be the missing pieces of the puzzle that'll transform us. Every time it descends into failure, with many of them being labelled flops within a year.

This approach needs to change. Feck Rice and Haaland and anyone who only wants to join us for the CL. We need to get the basics right when it comes to being a well run football club and having a functional team.

 

[Ibi Dreams]

The problem with writing these 6 months off means unlikely to get CL next season which make the slim chance of signing players like Haaland and Rice even slimmer

It doesn't mean we can't sign good players, lots of clubs have signed great players without CL football. We need to get better at identifying talent and also mentality and suitability for what we're trying to do

Haaland was never going to come to us anyway, and why would he? He can go anywhere he wants, the only reason he'd come here now is for money and that's not a good sign

We should be looking for Rice alternatives at a much lower price. He's good but he just isn't worth what they'd ask, especially because we need to buy quite a lot of players

 

[Heinzesight]

Deja vu

What’s he like at right back?

 

[shaky]

Would Ten Hag be interested in overseeing a rebuild at a club that's high on expectations but low on both competency and patience? He'll likely inherit a team in the Europa Conference League, with a World Cup in the middle of his first season - not exactly an ideal platform for a new manager who will need lots of time on the training pitch to get his ideas across. Nearly a decade on from SAF's retirement and the United manager role still looks like an impossible job.

I don't think we're a club low on patience. If he wants a crack at a big job, he'll probably not find a club with more patience than us. Our past 3 managers were all given at least 2 years in the job without impressing the majority much at any point. With the resources available here, I honestly think we're the dream destination for someone who believes in their ability to build something over time.

 

[Lentwood]

We don't do proper clearouts though because we aren't honest about our players abilities and their limitations.

We started the clearout brilliantly under Solskjaer but ran out of steam when tougher decisions had to be made. Why is Matic still here? Why is Mata still here? Why is Lingard here? Why is Pereira here? Why is Tuanzebe still here? Why is Williams still here? I could go on.

Why are Rashford and Martial on £200K and £250K respectively, doing bugger all? Why do we have one of the best 10/15 GKs in England sat on the bench for two seasons? Why is Pogba still here, toying with the club again? That's a real clearout for me. Get rid of all those, bar maybe Rashford, who I would offer a reduced deal of £150K per week to stay or go.

Then we reverted to type and started buying "stars" again. The early AWB, James, Maguire, Fernandes approach went out the window - say what you like about them but we came 3rd and 2nd with these players who all had something to prove. Then the "names" started arriving again...Cavani, Ronaldo, Varane, Sancho...all on massive wages.

 

[justsomebloke]

There is no light at the end of this tunnel unless we are willing to dig in and take some pain to transition to a modern coach. Trouble is the fans are so tired of putting up with 'transitions' or 'giving time to new managers' that are not providing any results. I can't see a quick fix to this as Ole's style wasn't a pressing style so the players don't necessarily suit that style but I'd agree that the sooner we get the new manager in the better, I don't believe this set of players will buy into a temp manager - they are proving that right now.

I don't actually think that's very clear, and having seen our last two games I'm less sure of that than before. We played exactly that kind of game during Ole's caretaker period, and sometimes later too, although with a bewildering lack of consistency. I think there's a question mark here if the comparative lack of pressing was intentional, or if they simply weren't able or willing to carry it out. I'm assuming Rangnick hasn't dropped his pressing philosophy, but it was nowhere in sight last night.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I don't actually think that's very clear, and having seen our last two games I'm less sure of that than before. We played exactly that kind of game during Ole's caretaker period, and sometimes later too, although with a bewildering lack of consistency. I think there's a question mark here if the comparative lack of pressing was intentional, or if they simply weren't able or willing to carry it out. I'm assuming Rangnick hasn't dropped his pressing philosophy, but it was nowhere in sight last night.

The main issue is we did things without any actual organisation.

Ole talked about pressing, but whenever we pressed it was Fernandes running at them like a mad man, followed by Cavani giving it a try, then likes of Rashford and Greenwood half jogging - and the central midfielders sitting deep guarding the centre backs.

We barely ever pressed with actual organisation.

Now the thing with Rangnick to me is it doesn't seem like he's actually just happy with 6 months. He probably knows this is his first/last chance at a big club, so he's trying to impress and get wins quickly.

Is he really trying to press? if so why is he not playing players that can press well.

Playing Cavani and Ronaldo upfront together isn't going to be a good recipe for this. He then drops Fernandes and Fred who are our best 2 pressers?

No wonder we looked lazy and lethargic when he's playing 3, 30+ year olds in the starting 11, plus the likes of Sancho and Greenwood who aren't known to be big workers.

Maybe he's realised this squad has zero chance at doing it and they aren't following his instructions, but so far it isn't looking good.

I think January is going to be a huge month for him. We will know by the end of this month whether the players are going to convert or rebel.

 

[groovyalbert]

I'd be super cautious to equate and compare RR with Klopp in the way the OP has.

Yes, they're both German, promote a similar style of football, and Klopp probably learned from him, but RR is in no way shape or form similar to Klopp in terms of the clubs he's managed/success he's had. Completely different leagues.

Also, the squads at the point of coming in are very different. With the exception of our midfield, this is a good Utd squad. Not necessarily good enough for the big trophies, but comfortably better than Liverpool's when Klopp came in/should be nailed on for top 4.

 

[Infra-red]

I don't think we're a club low on patience. If he wants a crack at a big job, he'll probably not find a club with more patience than us. Our past 3 managers were all given at least 2 years in the job without impressing the majority much at any point. With the resources available here, I honestly think we're the dream destination for someone who believes in their ability to build something over time.

We are impatient for success, though (see the Rangnick threads on here for evidence of that).

We need a major rebuild, with a huge number of entitled and lazy players being shown the door. That is going to take time and results will be iffy while it is occurring - I doubt that the new manager will be afforded much time before the weight of fan and media expectation begins to take its toll and, given the half-wits we seemingly have in charge of football operations at the club, you can't really expect us to get the recruitment right in this period, either. I'd say we're a nightmare destination for any manger who doesn't want to see his reputation ruined.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

I just cant believe a three year rebuild culminated in wins over Leeds and Newcastle and now it needs ripping up and rebuilding again

 

[Ali Dia]

I really really think we need to ditch the
4222222. The players aren’t buying onto the press so until we can freshen up and remove players that won’t run we are stuck. 3 in midfield at least gives some semblance of control over a game. Donny Fred McT. Play Bruno off the striker and one winger with the other full back providing width on the other side. It’s not rocket science. Play a fluid formation and shore up our weakest area on the pitch.

Ronaldo is a problem but he’s not going anywhere. Same with Rashford. Just gotta continue to bench players that aren’t doing the business until the penny hopefully drops. I really feel if you took someone like Rashford fully out for 5/10 games he’d come back a lot hungrier and with a point to prove. Donny has a point to prove. Don’t know why he dropped Fred when he was our best player in the other games but with a poor 45 against Newcastle. He seems to be the first one dropped when he was actually providing some kind of spark at least. Take Fred out of this team and there’s 0 energy in the middle and we move the ball forward way too slowly. Feels to me like Ralf is fumbling around and the players know and aren’t responding.

 

[podurban2]

Yes we need a big overhaul. We need a CM, a DM, a new RB, CB, LW, CF.

 

[Blood Mage]

I just cant believe a three year rebuild culminated in wins over Leeds and Newcastle and now it needs ripping up and rebuilding again

Ole was a master snake oil salesman. Wan Bissaka and Maguire have proved to be dreadful signings.

 

[r0663664]

We need the top four desperately. Otherwise we need to pay silly money to second grade players to convince them to play for United. Again.

Forget about Top 4, I see either Arsenal and Tottenham making it. Ole was the one who decided to pay silly money and the board back him. Maguire, AWB, Sancho and Bruno all came with big price tag. There are good players in England and aboard paying decent money. I think those money spend, there are 10 players better with less fee. I want a manager who sign players base on the style he wants to play, not spending money on individual brilliance. I want to see progress even if it mean missing out of Top 4.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

We can't have a clear out every 3 years. It's not even clear to me what direction the club is taking, and we don't know who the next manager is.

Trouble with our clear outs we got rid of players who might have been useful, yet renewed contracts of players who we are now seeing are a big problem on the field and potentially behind the scenes as well.

 

[RUCK4444]

I don't actually think that's very clear, and having seen our last two games I'm less sure of that than before. We played exactly that kind of game during Ole's caretaker period, and sometimes later too, although with a bewildering lack of consistency. I think there's a question mark here if the comparative lack of pressing was intentional, or if they simply weren't able or willing to carry it out. I'm assuming Rangnick hasn't dropped his pressing philosophy, but it was nowhere in sight last night.

I think Ole wanted that pressing style but we never achieved it. Like you pointed out, in his caretaker spell it was clear he wanted that style but quickly it turned into a counter-attacking system which seemed to suit the players.

Now it's a case of finding out whether it was purely Ole's lack of coaching ability that wasn't able to sustain a pressing style or if it's the players, Ralf is certainly struggling to get them to maintain even a basic level of pressing. Which is one of the key factors that has worried and disappointed me with Ralf so far, there's no trace of anything, no style, no pressing, seemingly poor formation, zero effort from the players, zero chemistry (I mean zero!), just nothing to cling onto. He's clearly dropped the pressing intent altogether at this point, from what we are seeing - why would he do that unless he believes the players cannot carry it out?

It's such a mess.

 

[Ali Dia]

Trouble with our clear outs we got rid of players who might have been useful, yet renewed contracts of players who we are now seeing are a big problem on the field and potentially behind the scenes as well.

We've sold an awful lot of players in the post Fergie era. The only ones so far who looked like they were still top players after they left were Di Maria Herrera and Lukaku. Martial will be another I think who can and should improve with a fresh start. It’s not like we are selling loads of amazing players. Players like Matic and Mata have managed to way outstay their welcome and we are letting Pogba go a free for the second time. We are just all over the place when it comes to recruitment. I really thought at one point we were tightening up. Getting Sancho for cheaper etc. it’s no good though, we haven’t learned anything. That much is pretty clear.

 

[RUCK4444]

Trouble with our clear outs we got rid of players who might have been useful, yet renewed contracts of players who we are now seeing are a big problem on the field and potentially behind the scenes as well.

Yup. Players like Blind and Herrera come to mind whilst renewing a raft of average players. I also thought we should have retained Smalling but that's neither here nor there really.

The change of style from one manager to the next with no DOF to maintain continuity of the team and style of play has been so detrimental it's untrue. Buck stops with Ed for trying to be a makeshift DOF and playing with the checkbook to keep whatever manager we have at the time happy instead of getting a proper DOF in place.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

We've sold an awful lot of players in the post Fergie era. The only ones so far who looked like they were still top players after they left were Di Maria Herrera and Lukaku. Martial will be another I think who can and should improve with a fresh start. It’s not like we are selling loads of amazing players. Players like Matic and Mata have managed to way outstay their welcome and we are letting Pogba go a free for the second time. We are just all over the place when it comes to recruitment. I really thought at one point we were tightening up. Getting Sancho for cheaper etc. it’s no good though, we haven’t learned anything. That much is pretty clear.

Would have kept Blind, he was versatile.