The Reality Draft: Round 1 - harms vs Joga Bonito

[Joga Bonito]

@Balu quoting doesn't work from my phone somehow. Of course he would need some help - that's why he has Ruggeri (why Varane?) and Bonhof near.

Blokhin won't track back to the left back position, but he would offer some help (a lot) to Carlos, a help that Bernat is supposed to get from who? Baggio? Lerby, who is a beast, but has his hands full with Falcao and Bergkamp in the middle?

So you have Ruggeri helping out Carlos while conveniently failing to mention Sanchis for me covering Bernat. Oh and Bonhof is near to cover for Carlos runs forward but somehow my Lerby, a beast, won't be there as he will have his hands full with Falcao and Bergkamp. Where did De Rossi go now? You are twisting a lot of things to your favour here...

Yup no idea who will help poor Bernat here.

Oh and Blokhin helps out Carlos a lot while he is your main goalthreat?

Alright then quite some magical team you have there...

 

[harms]

So you have Ruggeri helping out Carlos while conveniently failing to mention Sanchis for me covering Bernat. Oh and Bonhof is near to cover for Carlos runs forward but somehow my Lerby, a beast, won't be there as he will have his hands full with the mythical Bonhof who can wrestle with Lerby whilst his twin covers for Carlos at the same time?

Yup no idea who will help poor Bernat here.

Oh and Blokhin helps out Carlos a lot while he is your main goalthreat?

Alright then quite some magical team you have there...

The main difference is that I have a winger and a wingback and you have only wingback here. Of course Sanchis is covering, we have a very similar set-ups, but Lerby is up there against Falcao and Bonhof is against De Rossi - feel the difference.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Blokhin is his biggest goalthreat in this set-up. You simply don't want him to track Cafu's runs, that just won't work unless you take a lot away from his impact in attack. Sorry, I don't buy this at all. I agree that Bernat is in trouble here and needs help from the centerback next to him or midfield, but so does Carlos, maybe even more.

Stielike will drop down in to the defense and become a CB - Ruggeri will push out to make it 2 vs 2 between Carlos/Ruggeri and Cafu/Figo. So Blohkin will do a good defensive job in making sure Cafu won't constantly be a free passing option without being stressed and pressured.

He'd never track Cafu down to the corner flag, Ruggeri and Carlos are already doing that job. He does the job in front of Carlos and Ruggeri unpressured.

On the other end nobody will make sure Kaltz won't constantly get good balls which he can make runs with which opens up situations. Kaltz would be my bet on the man of the match, he is in a dream match up for him to use his famous crossing ability by just hitting early crosses towards Bergkamp and Blokhin.

 

[Balu]

Oh, quoting worked.
Ortiz isn't tracking back much, he doesn't need to anyway. Blokhin is playing his best role - he always provided help to left back, while continuing to be the main goal threat, that's why he is the best Soviet player ever - something Cruyffesque but on the flank

Dangerous comparison and draft managers often try to portray Cruyff as if he was left winger, left back, AM and striker at the same time. The reality is though, that even Cruyff was only at one place at a time and only the fluidity in his teams allowed him to create constant movement to confuse the opponent and temporarily take over different positions to exploit gaps that open up because of it.

I'd also argue that Blokhin in Lobanovsky's side was more a free roaming 2nd striker, than an actual left winger. It was a pretty clear 442 with Blokhin one of the 2 if I remember correctly.

 

[Joga Bonito]

The main difference is that I have a winger and a wingback and you have only wingback here. Of course Sanchis is covering, we have a very similar set-ups, but Lerby is up there against Falcao and Bonhof is against De Rossi - feel the difference.

Well pardon me for thinking you would play Blokhin ,your primary goal threat, as an inside-forward instead of a winger on the left flank. It certainly looked that way from the set-up you posted in the first page...

 

[Balu]

On the other end nobody will make sure Kaltz won't constantly get good balls which he can make runs with which opens up situations. Kaltz would be my bet on the man of the match, he is in a dream match up for him to use his famous crossing ability by just hitting early crosses towards Bergkamp and Blokhin.

Think you're just taking Bernat completely out of the equation here as if he was air. That's nonsense in my opinion. Also again, Baggio vs Varane is a clear mismatch and Kaltz should have an eye on that (doubt he will though, which means his runs forward can easily be exploited). Baggio drifting wide, receiving a pass from Koeman and it's a huge huge problem for harm's defense, because Joga actually has a centerback who needs attention from Stielike/Ruggeri. I agree that a cross from Kaltz to Blokhin is a likely way to a goal, I highly doubt that Kaltz will be man of the match here though, not at all. My bet is on Falcao.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I'd also argue that Blokhin in Lobanovsky's side was more a free roaming 2nd striker, than an actual left winger. It was a pretty clear 442 with Blokhin one of the 2 if I remember correctly.

Lobanovsky style 4-4-2:

 

[Balu]

Lobanovsky style 4-4-2:

Yeah, that's not bad. I think the midfield was a bit more flat though and I remember Buryak playing a bit further forward as a right sided AM/winger, making it slightly asymetrical. But I agree on Blokhin, there's no way that his usual role was a left winger, who tracked the opposing rightback.

 

[harms]

Well pardon me for thinking you would play Blokhin ,your primary goal threat, as an inside-forward instead of a winger on the left flank. It certainly looked that way from the set-up you posted in the first page...

He isn't a winger, ffs. Annah put it together quite nicely, much better than me.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Think you're just taking Bernat completely out of the equation here as if he was air. That's nonsense in my opinion. Also again, Baggio vs Varane is a clear mismatch and Kaltz should have an eye on that (doubt he will though, which means his runs forward can easily be exploited). Baggio drifting wide, receiving a pass from Koeman and it's a huge huge problem for harm's defense, because Joga actually has a centerback who needs attention from Stielike/Ruggeri. I agree that a cross from Kaltz to Blokhin is a likely way to a goal, I highly doubt that Kaltz will be man of the match here though, not at all. My bet is on Falcao.

I also think that Baggio is good for setting up of scoring a goal in that manner even if Stielike will step down - making it a difficult situation still for Baggio to turn it in to a goal. That route also becomes dry if Harms scores the first goal, whereas the hole in front of Bernat is there all game long whether Joga is a goal up or not.

 

[Joga Bonito]

The main difference is that I have a winger and a wingback and you have only wingback here. Of course Sanchis is covering, we have a very similar set-ups, but Lerby is up there against Falcao and Bonhof is against De Rossi - feel the difference.

He isn't a winger, ffs. Annah put it together quite nicely, much better than me.

Of course he put it much better than you

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Yeah, that's not bad. I think the midfield was a bit more flat though and I remember Buryak playing a bit further forward as a right sided AM/winger, making it slightly asymetrical. But I agree on Blokhin, there's no way that his usual role was a left winger, who tracked the opposing rightback.

Yessir - it was less symmetrical, no doubt. Just wanted to illustrate Blokhin's role. The latter remained very similar throughout, one could argue: Blokhin played this "Blokhin role" for both the golden Lobanovsky teams (70s and 80s).

 

[harms]

Yes, my bad, sorry. Man on the wing, I mean

 

[Joga Bonito]

Yes, my bad, sorry. Man on the wing, I mean

Np mate. Just think Blokhin should be given the same freedom I'm giving Baggio but it's not my team. He is a good pressing player and can help out but I think he should be given a bit more positional responsibility.

 

[Balu]

Yessir - it was less symmetrical, no doubt. Just wanted to illustrate Blokhin's role. The latter remained very similar throughout, one could argue: Blokhin played this "Blokhin role" for both the golden Lobanovsky teams (70s and 80s).

You could actually include his team from the late 90's as well. The Rebrov - Shevchenko partnership in his still brilliant 442 pressing system worked in a very similar way. Brilliant team and would also have been a deserved winner in the '99 CL campaign. I'd actually argue that they were the best team we faced that year and yes that includes the eventual winner Manchester United.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

harms: (16)
antohan
crappycraperson
BorisDeLeFora
Annahnomoss
.
Pat_Mustard
sajeev
manikandan nair
Balu
Hojoon
Isotope
MTR
fontaine


Joga Bonito: (16)

Raees
VivaJanuzaj
Chesterlestreet
.
Sky1981
Cutch
Mighty Boosh
Paolo Di Canio
sun_tzu
Thisistheone
Edgar Allan Pillow
the hea
Kazi
2mufc0

 

[Gio]

You could actually include his team from the late 90's as well. The Rebrov - Shevchenko partnership in his still brilliant 442 pressing system worked in a very similar way. Brilliant team and would also have been a deserved winner in the '99 CL campaign. I'd actually argue that they were the best team we faced that year and yes that includes the eventual winner Manchester United.

Aye. Basler's wondergoal and Kahn's phenomenal performance saved Bayern from a hiding.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

One more minute to go and only 7 managers have voted!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Gio - want to break the draw?

 

[Joga Bonito]

What happens if it is a tie?

 

[Gio]

@Gio - want to break the draw?

Too late. I'd have voted for Joga with the set-up I said earlier.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

 

[Joga Bonito]

Too late. I'd have voted for Joga with the set-up I said earlier.

 

[Balu]

Aye. Basler's wondergoal and Kahn's phenomenal performance saved Bayern from a hiding.

Yeah, we got lucky there, no doubt. They were equally fantastic when they kicked Real out in the return leg of the quarter finals.

 

[Annahnomoss]

He was a goal scoring left winger for Lobonovsky, prior to that he was regular left winger. You look at someone like Stoichkov, Ronaldo or Bale and they play exactly like he did. Counter-attacking from the left wing. His goal when he is alone against Schwarzenbeck, and two more defenders(is it Beckenbauer?) and turns them inside out on his own and scores - is a classic.

For me he was the type of player to collect balls deep in to the left side like Ronaldo does today and then he exploded forward.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

What happens if it is a tie?

Usually penalties.

@harms

I think it goes this way:

Pick 5 players who will take the penalty (in order) and give me which direction they will go - left, center or right.
Then pick 5 attempt directions for your goalie to stop harms penalty takers - left, center or right.

harms will do the same and I will see what's scored and what's saved....and who wins!

 

[Gio]

Yeah, we got lucky there, no doubt. They were equally fantastic when they kicked Real out in the return leg of the quarter finals.

What a team. Such a shame they didn't win it that year.

 

[harms]

He was a goal scoring left winger for Lobonovsky, prior to that he was regular left winger. You look at someone like Stoichkov, Ronaldo or Bale and they play exactly like he did. Counter-attacking from the left wing. His goal when he is alone against Schwarzenbeck, and two more defenders(is it Beckenbauer?) and turns them inside out on his own and scores - is a classic.

For me he was the type of player to collect balls deep in to the left side like Ronaldo does today and then he exploded forward.

One of them is Beckenbauer, yes. I made some comparisons to Ronaldo, but I don't think that anybody noticed actually. Ronaldo with a better (or more balanced between attack and defense) work rate (less goal threat, of course, but who wasn't)

 

[Balu]

One of them is Beckenbauer, yes. I made some comparisons to Ronaldo, but I don't think that anybody noticed actually. Ronaldo with a better (or more balanced between attack and defense) work rate (less goal threat, of course, but who wasn't)

The problem wasn't that you used him the wrong way or anything like that. He's absolutely fantastic in the role you played him. It all started to be a bit ridiculous, when he all of a sudden tracked Cafu and became a hardworking left winger, instead of the brilliant inside left who is your biggest goalthreat. I'd personally would have used him to put pressure on Koeman, that would have been an absolutely perfect role for him and hurt Joga's team a lot more than keeping Cafu from receiving the ball in his own half or whatever Annah described above.

 

[harms]

Glad that this ended in a draw - I felt that the teams were very close. I liked mine better, of course, but fair is fair

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Sorry guys have to run to office now. I can only do this 90 mins later at the earliest!

@Balu @Gio anyone can run the penalties and confirm the winner?

 

[Joga Bonito]

Can we start the penalty shootout asap? Want to witness the live commentary. Or do you just announce the ultimate result @Edgar Allan Pillow

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

or even @Annahnomoss since he is out of the tournament.

 

[harms]

The problem wasn't that you used him the wrong way or anything like that. He's absolutely fantastic in the role you played him. It all started to be a bit ridiculous, when he all of a sudden tracked Cafu and became a hardworking left winger, instead of the brilliant inside left who is your biggest goalthreat. I'd personally would have used him to put pressure on Koeman, that would have been an absolutely perfect role for him and hurt Joga's team a lot more than keeping Cafu from receiving the ball in his own half or whatever Annah described above.

That's very interesting thought, sadly too late. Actually, if I would've pressed Koeman more it could've ended differently

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Can we start the penalty shootout asap? Want to witness the live commentary. Or do you just announce the ultimate result @Edgar Allan Pillow

There will be live commentary...in my case due to severe weather turbulence we 'll be off air for next 90 mins

 

[Balu]

Sorry guys have to run to office now. I can only do this 90 mins later at the earliest!

@Balu @Gio anyone can run the penalties and confirm the winner?

You need to find someone who can do the live commentary. It's really boring without it. Maybe @rpitroda is around? His penalty shootouts were brilliant. I have to leave in 10minutes, sorry.

 

[Joga Bonito]

That's very interesting thought, sadly too late. Actually, if I would've pressed Koeman more it could've ended differently

That could have hurt my team immensely and could have been a game-changer. Koeman was absolutely critical to this team.

 

[harms]

Sorry guys have to run to office now. I can only do this 90 mins later at the earliest!

@Balu @Gio anyone can run the penalties and confirm the winner?

Resend my message to them then, ok?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

No. Resend only if anyone agrees to do it. Else I'll do it from office:

 

[Annahnomoss]

The problem wasn't that you used him the wrong way or anything like that. He's absolutely fantastic in the role you played him. It all started to be a bit ridiculous, when he all of a sudden tracked Cafu and became a hardworking left winger, instead of the brilliant inside left who is your biggest goalthreat. I'd personally would have used him to put pressure on Koeman, that would have been an absolutely perfect role for him and hurt Joga's team a lot more than keeping Cafu from receiving the ball in his own half or whatever Annah described above.

Not sure if you are just having a joke here? But you made up the fact that anybody said he'd track Cafu yourself. Nobody else ever said it.

I've said that Blokhin will do a defensive job on Cafu, like Figo will do a defensive job on the other side, or how Bale does a defensive job on his side for Madrid, or how Stoichkov did a defensive job even if he attacked freely. Or how Muller can do a defensive job in the defense on a wing, while not operating as a winger in the offense anyhow.

I've said it once already, stop stating that anybody but yourself said that Blokhin will track/man mark Cafu. You're in an argument against with a fictional character. Ronaldo has a defensive job on the wing as well when he plays, and a lot of people refer to him as a striker because he cuts inside so much to score. Of course Ronaldo isn't half the man Blokhin is defensively.