Really?
Other managers pretty much laid it out for you in the main thread on Sunday:
The Reality Draft - SF: VivaJanuzaj vs Theon / MJJ
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
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Other managers pretty much laid it out for you in the main thread on Sunday:
Thing here is, I'm not so sure on Falcao's role here. he was the 2nd highest score in a free flowing Brazilian team. defensive awareness was secondary to creative brilliance which does not seem to be the case with Theon's strategy (esp as he is in side with Rodriguez/Campbell). Secondly, despite being what you call a deep lying playmaker, he had Zico/Socrates ahead of him, but here in Theon's strategy seem to require more of a box to box role, again not his strong point. My dilemma is that he is neither a creative DM (a la Redondo/Alonso) neither a pure B2B CM and Theon seem to be using him as a hybrid of these 2 roles. Faced with 3 physical and high profile midfielders in Viva's team, I'm having second thoughts on this!
The key to the game IMO is how deep or high a defensive line Viva is playing. As per usual, the writeup says nothing about it so we can all imagine what sounds best to us. Defences usually have a defined approach to that though.
I took it as a normal line, neither deep not too high. Would be nuts to do either imo!
Normal lines are the usual fodder when you don't actually know what you are doing, or why.
No. It's not. It's not as if you have to play a deep or a high line always. He has a balanced back 4 without a dedicated DM. Can't see him playing anything but a normal here.
No, it isn't, but this game clearly calls for one of them.
Just got online, was expecting more people to have voted but oh well.
One point I will raise is that both totti and rivaldo will look to drift in the space between viva's midfield and defense. With him playing three box to box midfielders,there would be plenty of space to exploit and both our players are gifted enough to do just that as Keane will naturally go forward from time to time.
Also, his team is severely suffering from players who can split a defense open. With a five man defense, I really struggle to see who is going to play the passes that will lead to chances for RVN and co. whereas our players are much more likelier to thread a pass through for a deadlier striker.
One point I will raise is that both totti and rivaldo will look to drift in the space between viva's midfield and defense. With him playing three box to box midfielders,there would be plenty of space to exploit and both our players are gifted enough to do just that as Keane will naturally go forward from time to time.
Also, his team is severely suffering from players who can split a defense open. With a five man defense, I really struggle to see who is going to play the passes that will lead to chances for RVN and co. whereas our players are much more likelier to thread a pass through for a deadlier striker.
I don't think that every defense should have a high or low defensive line. As I said in my tactics, my team isn't "possession" team nor it is a counter attacking one. It's both. That's the entire idea behind my team, the quick transitions during the game from each tactic because we can. My team has the arsenal to do it. Maybe theres a "right" choice here", I'm not going to just say "oh yeah my team will play a low defensive line" because its better for me, I'm playing my team to it's strong sides and I do think that the ability to mix it up is better than to try and counter Theon's team, because Theon has a great team and a simple high or low defensive line can be easily countered by his smart player, whereas my current tactic limits them.
This is madness, last game between us you went on about Varane being better than deBoer, now I need a deadlier striker than RVN? How much deadlier can you go? I'm sorry, thats just bollocks.
You got Rummenigge and RVN, you don't need more cutting defenses open.
Falcao will lose his grip over the game here, he might be the best midfielder on the pitch but my midfield trio will bully him and Souness with their strength and unstoppable workrate, it's three men(who run like 4 or 5) at their prime who was bloody all over the pitch against two superb midfielders, yeah it's not an easy task for my midfield but its one I definitely win.
Here we go again and Seedorf is being underrated all over again.Deary me.
Souness is comfortably, and I mean comfortably, a better player than Seedorf. It isn't even close.
Seedorf was the most dispensable midfielder in Milan's Ancelotti side, Pirlo, Gattuso and Kaka were all more important players. Souness was the heart of a team which won three European Cups. He's right up there with Keane in your team and comfortably ahead of Clarence Seedorf.
4 times CL winner for feck sake, and he wasn't this dispensable in that Ancelotti side. He just did the hard work in the background that folks who knew nothing about football didn't understand. Yeah, you could easily see the impact of Kaka and Pirlo in terms of creation, and you could definitely see Gattuso in action because he just went in tackles and was a badass, but Seedorf was the quite hardworking midfielder that made all that possible, he used to drift wide, pass around with Kaka in attack to beat the midfield line, or have a simple one two with Pirlo to break the opponent's pressure. Gattuso couldn't do all that, so you needed a midfielder who could do that either from the back with Pirlo or in the advanced position with Kaka.
He's work rate was superb too, and he covered for Pirlo's defensive "weakness"(as opposed to his strong attacking abilities) constantly. Yeah Gattuso was the main man defensively but Seedorf covered miles of the pitch in that Milan and was definitely not "dispensable", to claim that is really really really showing lack of appreciation for the box to box midfielder in any team with another player who has "the spark", you need to appreciate the tough hard working background midfielders.
I've got 3 box to box midfielders and a vision behind it, I think it's actually much more balanced than your team. You've got two players fighting the midfield battle, a young, not even top class yet LB(jesus my second choice LB is clearly better than yours), and three(superb) attackers.
You're team is very defensive minded with some great attackers, the way I see it you're tactics is too hope I won't score using a very packed defense, while hoping for Romario Totti or Rivaldo to have a moment of brilliance in a scale that usually come a couple of times every season. This tactic is fair, and it might even work if you'll get lucky, but statistically I think I have the better chance of winning a single match here, I don't doubt it.
My defense is really balanced, okay you've used the Zanetti card early, yeah Zanetti at his prime was mostly a RB but you shouldn't count his versatility against him! Just because he was a great RB doesn't make him any less better LB, a position he played a whole lot in his career and excelled in. I had this before with Lucho, where versatility comes to bite you up the ass when people refer to it as a weakness for some manner, Zanetti was a top notch LB, maybe he was better at RB, but he definitely had no problems in LB.
Yep. I don't need a midfielder who can cut defenses wide open like Scholes or Xavi, Breitner and Savicevic had some great passing abilities, and with two players who'll be moving around like Kalle and RVN you know my players will get the chances to pass it inside.
Yep, as I said, that front three will definitely cause problem for most defense, but you can't get better in central defense than my duo can you? Kohler is one of the best in history and Vierchowod is the best man marker in history.
I can go on and on about Vierchowod against Maradona but with past drafts I think we've all heard it too many times, but Vierchowod is definitely the best player to face Romario.
The thing you seem to forget, is that Theon has no wide threat apart from Cafu, Rodriguez isn't much of a threat tbh, and his lack of experience will be showed here. Most of the times, my full backs are free to assist with that trio, while Keane is also there, so it's my 5 of Zanetti-Kohler-Vierchowod-Reuter-Keane against the trio of Totti-Rivaldo-Romario, with Cafu/Rodriguez coming from behind. My defense, in terms of defending, is spotless, and Theon simply doesn't attack with enough players to beat it unless one of that trio will have a moment of brilliance, I'll take my chances against that really.
First of all, Keano is definitely not the player you want making these cutting passes, I agree, but he can definitely do it and with the amount of freedom he might get here that can be enough for him. It's not like he's a water carrier who couldn't handle a pass, Keane used to assist from now and than. If any of his midfielders come out to attack Keane in possession it will free up Seedorf/Breitner in a higher place up the pitch and in a more threatening area with better players. I think the midfield battle is clearly mine.
That's a bold claim against an attack containing Totti, Rivaldo and Romario, with a brilliant supporting cast!
This is a bit of a tangent, but do other people sometimes vote in terms of a manager 'overcommitting' in terms of their arguments? If I'm undecided simply in terms of the line ups and initial tactics, its very often a tie breaker for me - if I think a manager is unrealistically underplaying their opponent's strengths then I view it as the equivalent of a really bad tactical error. Anto is the undisputed best ever at this for me. There's times I read one of his posts and think its way over the top, yet a few posts later he's won me around again! This isn't meant as a personal attack on you Viva, just the drunken ramblings of a man with far too much time on his hands tonight and a dwindling supply of canned Guinness.
As for overcommitting, as I said, yeah Rivaldo Totti and Romario are superb but they don't have the right supporting cast here, the wide options are Rodriguez who completely doesn't belong in a semi final of any past draft and Cafu who was superb, but it's still not enough, Cafu also has the brick wall of Zanetti, with no one else to defend against. Falcao and Souness are definitely strong but are they enough if their facing the strong Seedorf-Breitner? Are they creatively good enough to beat these two and create for that three while keeping an eye on the counter? No, I think their not. It's a too big of a role to ask from any midfielder imo.
Again, he can score, no doubt about it, but it will take one of his attacking three's moment of brilliance that comes a few times only in their career to beat my defense. Vierchowod is the perfect man marker to nullify Romario and with defenders like Kohler, Reuter Zanetti and Keane in the equation, yes I'm not scared to say it, I feel comfortable, if they'll score it's from a moment of brilliance from Rivaldo/Romario which can happen, but that's a chance I have to take. It's not like they've beaten a defense like this on a daily basis.
Cafu will get a free card to roam here and he should really, because Theon doesn't have any actual width otherwise. But Cafu meets Zanetti, with no other player even remotely troubling him down that wing. Zanetti is free to take his time only for Cafu, and that's not what you want for Cafu, you want him to join from behind and face no one and have the freedom. Cafu can definitely win some of these battles but I'd rate Zanetti's defensively(even on the left) higher than Cafu as an attacker.
Seedorf can also do a really good job on the left here let us not forget, he played LCM for Milan, and with Souness being the most defensive midfielder for Theon's team, Seedorf will probably get the chance to often help with either Totti or Cafu. I just don't think Theon's team are attacking with enough players here.
You really just love being the dick don't you?
I'm not entirely sure I understand the high vs deep line defense discussion. I think most teams kinda use both, push forward when in possession, but try to recover and get back into a deep shape when they lose the ball, which usually leads to typical back and forth games.
At least my definition of a specific highline is that you stay high even when you lose the ball, defend through pressing and intercepting rather than in and around the box.
A specificly deep sitting defense means the team is solely attacking on the counter and even in possession, the defense won't commit forward, an additional holding midfielder stays deep as well, so that the gap, which opens up between attack and defense, doesn't hurt your team.
Neither is the case with Viva's team here, it's just your 'normal' set-up, nothing extreme in either direction, turn the game into a physical back and forth high action game, so that the workrate of his midfield is of much use as possible.
At least my definition of a specific highline is that you stay high even when you lose the ball, defend through pressing and intercepting rather than in and around the box.
A specificly deep sitting defense means the team is solely attacking on the counter and even in possession, the defense won't commit forward, an additional holding midfielder stays deep as well, so that the gap, which opens up between attack and defense, doesn't hurt your team.
Neither is the case with Viva's team here, it's just your 'normal' set-up, nothing extreme in either direction, turn the game into a physical back and forth high action game, so that the workrate of his midfield is of much use as possible.
Exactly @Balu cheers.
Eh, slow down trying to suggest that I'm the one underrating players. It's the exact opposite - you were saying how Souness was the worst midfielder on the pitch which is just categorically wrong. It's a non-debate. He was a much better player than Clarence Seedorf and one of the most important players of the decade.
I didn't underrate Seedorf either, I just said that he was the most dispensable of that Milan midfield which I think he was.
But really the whole point was to talk about Souness, you were way off in your assessment off him which is what I was responding to. Souness is right up there with Keane and Breitner, there's no question about that.
Ah man, two absolutely brilliant sides. Imagine watching this one for real. Would be amaazing!
I'm not going to quote your whole post but I disagree with so much of what you say. It's also funny how I'm apparently outmanned in every area of the pitch - it's always my three attackers against five of your players, but then you'll out man me on the wings as well and also dominate the midfield battle with extra players. You're not balanced at all in what you write.
Anyway, I disagree with this in terms of the attack - It simply isn't a defensive team, that makes no sense when you look at it and compare it to yours. Both of those midfielders are offensively minded and better passers than anyone you have in your side, Falcao in particular is the most creative and offensively capable midfielder on the pitch, so I don't know why you ignore him assisting Totti/Rivaldo/Romario, but then on the flipside have Seedorf wrecking havoc at the other end. It's not at all balanced or realistic.
You can't ignore the wingbacks either - saying it's just going to be Totti/Rivaldo/Romario up there on there own is deluded. Forget Falcao and Souness for a moment, in a 3-5-2 the wingbacks have huge freedom to affect the game offensively. As I said in the OP Cafu is probably the best ever at doing just this, whether it was Roma winning the Scudetto, Milan winning the Champions League or Brazil winning the World Cup - Cafu constantly bombed up that flank in systems such as this one.
That isn't true at all, Rodriguez will obviously push up on the left and Totti constantly drifted across the pitch when he played as a #10 in Roma's 3-5-2. Most of all you're ignoring Rivaldo who often actually played as a left winger. Moreover Rivaldo played this exact role for Brazil in their 3-5-2, pulling out to the wings behind a #9. It's not fantasy stuff, this actually happened so playing it down is completely daft.
I said:
So yeah, I've taken his roaming to question, but I also answered on how I'll counter it.
Yeah but it never happened against a defense like mine, which is perfectly set-up to nullify him and Romario.
What I think he was saying is that Ruud isn't one to create his own chances the way someone like Romario can. That's the truth of it, they're both great finishers but Romario is on a completely different level in terms of speed, technique and dribbling. He's much, much more capable of creating his own opportunities or exploiting any little gaps he sees.
And then the second point is that you do lack creativity and passing ability in terms of playing that final ball. There is no one on the level of Rivaldo or Totti at creating chances and no passer on the level of Falcao in your team - although Keane is very good. That lack of creativity doesn't suit Ruud, he isn't going to dribble through the defence.
The clearest route to goal is a Totti through ball to Romario. The best passer slipping a ball into the best goalscorer.
@viva read up on what the word deadlier means unless you are trying to argue rvn was better than romario in which case carry on.
and seriously dude let the varane de boer thing slide. no one ven picked de boer in this draft
and seriously dude let the varane de boer thing slide. no one ven picked de boer in this draft
Crazy talk suggesting Seedorf is even in the same ballpark as Souness. They both cleaned up in the European Cup but there was a clear difference in their roles there. Seedorf was generally an important cog who helped connect and complement his more capable colleagues. In contrast, the midfield was built around Souness and he consistently bossed it.
Souness is comfortably, and I mean comfortably, a better player than Seedorf. It isn't even close.
Seedorf was the most dispensable midfielder in Milan's Ancelotti side, Pirlo, Gattuso and Kaka were all more important players. Souness was the heart of a team which won three European Cups. He's right up there with Keane in your team and comfortably ahead of Clarence Seedorf.
I was going it let it slide (like a normal defensive line), but agree with this.
He didn't only played in that Brazil team though.
He had brilliant defensive awareness and he isn't playing pure DM here - with Passarella as a sweeper you don't really need it.
Yeah Romario is deadlier than RVN, but suggesting that RVN isn't deadly enough in front of goal is absurd. I'm not going to even bring up his goal running from the center pitch and beating 4 defenders than scoring, because it's not a daily manner for him even at his best, but surely his supreme movement will be "deadly" with Kalle and Savicevic passing the balls to him, or even only to pull defenders out of their positions to leave the route for Breitnegge or Savicevic.@viva read up on what the word deadlier means unless you are trying to argue rvn was better than romario in which case carry on.
and seriously dude let the varane de boer thing slide. no one ven picked de boer in this draft
Thats the thing, Theon's midfield is miles away from being built around Souness, while Seedorf is playing at his best role with players to compliment him perfectly and allow him the freedom to excel.
Nobody was, tbf ("whereas our players are much more likelier to thread a pass through for a deadlier striker").
Yeah. I know it was a great attacking team, but the amount of discussion that relates directly back to Brazil '82 as the arbiter of all things 4-2-2-2 and its component players is a bit much.He didn't only played in that Brazil team though.
He had brilliant defensive awareness and he isn't playing pure DM here - with Passarella as a sweeper you don't really need it.
@viva I never suggested that, if you reread the post you Will see I was talking about our strikers and said romario was deadlier.
@viva I never suggested that, if you reread the post you Will see I was talking about our strikers and said romario was deadlier.
Theon did.
All I said on Ruud is that he isn't as capable of creating his own chances as Romario, that's a completely fair comment. Whilst they are both fantastic finishers Ruud is more reliant on service. He quite comfortably isn't on the same level as Romario in terms of his general ability, he's lacks the sheer pace, technique and dribbling of the Brazilian who is a clear couple of levels above him overall.
This is all I said and there's nothing unreasonable there. Romario is an all time great and the best forward in the draft, he's the much better player.
I'm not questioning his defensive awareness here. My point was with a 5 man defence, you would ideally need box-to-box midfielders who can shuttle up and down the pitch providing balance to the midfield. Not a DM and a DLP. Again with Passarella trying to move on up when possible, would he intrude on Falcao's space? Theon's team needs midfielders who are comfortable moving up to support the attack on consistent basis. Falcao is capable, but Theon's write up seem to concentrate on their passing abilities and defensive awareness. So was confused on how Falcao's role will work here.
I'll drop it then. It wasn't meant as criticism but a hint (a helpful one, but I can't get involved here and spell it out). There's a certain way that would be a better way to play against this team (and a component is, as EAP pointed out, that you should have started 4-3-1-2), but I guess we'll have to keep it for the final.
No, just stating a fact, it was laid out on the thread so I'm surprised you didn't foresee that lineup, particularly when people wwere saying they would be more likely to vote for him with it.
I'm not saying it's either/or, just that if it is normal it isn't the right one IMO.
Agreed, I'd argue the French played a far more successful one.
Well, like I knew Friday-Saturday brings with it the minimum votes possible, so we're down to 12 votes atm. Hopefully the last few hours will pick it up.
I haven't heard a single statement from my opponents explaining how they will actually stop my right side of Breittengge, one of the best combos in the draft.
The way I see it, when I attack, Falcao and Souness are handful against Keane/Seedorf/Breitner, while the third is roaming(or a full back attacks) and that leaves Rodriguez(who will probably get caught off-position more than a few times) and Campbell to deal with Rummenigge while Passarella is busy with the roaming midfielder(or Savicevic), or Passarella is with Kalle while Campbell is busy covering for Rodriguez against Breitner.
Than RVN is alone against McGrath. Yes, RVN isn't Romario and he can't create a goal from scratch for himself, that's a fair assessment from Theon, but he doesn't need one if he's one on one vs McGrath. All he needs is a through ball or a cross, and he's got so many options! Kalle, Savicevic, Breitner, Keane, Seedorf, Reuter, Zanetti, every one of them might find themselves in a position to pass it to RVN with a single beating of a defender by any one of them. The fact is, Theon's got 3 players who won't defend at all against a superb attack and that will take it's tole.
I haven't heard a single statement from my opponents explaining how they will actually stop my right side of Breittengge, one of the best combos in the draft.
The way I see it, when I attack, Falcao and Souness are handful against Keane/Seedorf/Breitner, while the third is roaming(or a full back attacks) and that leaves Rodriguez(who will probably get caught off-position more than a few times) and Campbell to deal with Rummenigge while Passarella is busy with the roaming midfielder(or Savicevic), or Passarella is with Kalle while Campbell is busy covering for Rodriguez against Breitner.
Than RVN is alone against McGrath. Yes, RVN isn't Romario and he can't create a goal from scratch for himself, that's a fair assessment from Theon, but he doesn't need one if he's one on one vs McGrath. All he needs is a through ball or a cross, and he's got so many options! Kalle, Savicevic, Breitner, Keane, Seedorf, Reuter, Zanetti, every one of them might find themselves in a position to pass it to RVN with a single beating of a defender by any one of them. The fact is, Theon's got 3 players who won't defend at all against a superb attack and that will take it's tole.
As much as Rivaldo/Romario combo is mouth watering, I think Brietenigge with Savicevic floating in and RvN at point will have the advantage of numbers here. Quite close, but I've gone for Viva here.
This semi deserves a better pulsating finale: @Annahnomoss, @Joga Bonito , @Raees , @Skizzo , @Stobzilla
Have you voted anto?