The RedCafe Boxing Thread

[pocco]

either way, fury hasn’t done anything of hall of fame note other the klitschko fight (and that too only against a politician.) that’s a long time to be dining out as “the best” whilst there are still boxers that have held belts in the last decade that he hasn’t fought.

Who do you think he should have fought? AJ wouldn't give him a fight pre Fury vs Wlad. Everyone wanted AJ vs Wilder, but Fury got there first, destroyed him and then nobody wanted that for AJ and said Wilder is shit. In the meantime Fury is in the ascension whilst AJ is making a meal out of every fight and losing to B level fighters. So there was no appetite for Fury vs AJ.

Usyk is the only one really and I do think it will happen. Why it's not happened so far is open to interpretation. You possibly can't talk about Fury at HoF level yet, but that's mainly because the division is so shit. When you have numptys blowing smoke up the arse of average boxers like AJ that just says it all. He was the pinnacle of HW for much of the last 10 years and he's garbage.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I had Francis winning but it wasn't a robbery for Fury to win.

Tyson was generally a little more active and accurate and that is borne out by the stats.

On the other hand Francis was more aggressive and he threw more hurtful punches than Fury and scored a knockdown.

It comes down to what you reward and it is fair enough either way.

Yeah it was a close fight and could have gone either way. Although the onus is always on the challenger to take it out of the judge’s hands, as judges seems to always favour the champion in close fights.

Whatever, the absolute hysteria on here (and on social media) from MMA fans about how it was an outrageous decision and a definite fix is and was ridiculous.

 

[rimaldo]

Who do you think he should have fought? AJ wouldn't give him a fight pre Fury vs Wlad. Everyone wanted AJ vs Wilder, but Fury got there first, destroyed him and then nobody wanted that for AJ and said Wilder is shit. In the meantime Fury is in the ascension whilst AJ is making a meal out of every fight and losing to B level fighters. So there was no appetite for Fury vs AJ.

Usyk is the only one really and I do think it will happen. Why it's not happened so far is open to interpretation. You possibly can't talk about Fury at HoF level yet, but that's mainly because the division is so shit. When you have numptys blowing smoke up the arse of average boxers like AJ that just says it all. He was the pinnacle of HW for much of the last 10 years and he's garbage.

i agree it’s a shit division, and he’s not fought anyone who’s anyone in it. he’s a pussy.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

I guess if you want to really try and dig any positives in Fury performance last night then him managing out the fight would be the only one (have something to prove/this being an exhibition just goes in excuse territory). But still, the very fact that he had to rely on such tactic is a bad look and purely looking at the punches landed by each round it was still so damn close with some of the rounds that could easily go either way (as seen even with the judges).

Don't know, baffled that after a knock down and aside from the occasional jab he managed to create almost zero openings with his actual movement and boxing.

Agreed. I think he knew he would win because these people and their corners have vast experience. He expended the minimum to do so in a nothing fake Saudi money right. Nobody ever really comes out looking good in these silly exhibitions.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

i agree it’s a shit division, and he’s not fought anyone who’s anyone in it. he’s a pussy.

Which top class HW has this “pussy” been running scared from?

 

[Crashoutcassius]

N'Gannou caught a second wind after a breather in the 6th and 7th and then saw out the fight comfortably, winning rd 8 with ease. Rd 9 and 10, Fury was extremely tentative at a time he would normally look to finish strong.

He certainly had flurries in the later rounds. Personally think it was much more that fury just relaxed once ngannou looked shot. His corner told him to manage it, he admitted it after the fight. It was a nothing fight, he can't risk interrupting his prep for the real fight in a few weeks, but the Saudis paid the money so like everyone in the world they turn up and go through the motions.

 

[Withnail]

Which top class HW has this “pussy” been running scared from?

Are you sure you're not confusing regular rimaldo posts with the rare serious ones?

 

[Dan_F]

Who do you think he should have fought? AJ wouldn't give him a fight pre Fury vs Wlad. Everyone wanted AJ vs Wilder, but Fury got there first, destroyed him and then nobody wanted that for AJ and said Wilder is shit. In the meantime Fury is in the ascension whilst AJ is making a meal out of every fight and losing to B level fighters. So there was no appetite for Fury vs AJ.

Usyk is the only one really and I do think it will happen. Why it's not happened so far is open to interpretation. You possibly can't talk about Fury at HoF level yet, but that's mainly because the division is so shit. When you have numptys blowing smoke up the arse of average boxers like AJ that just says it all. He was the pinnacle of HW for much of the last 10 years and he's garbage.

Pulev and Povetkin are obvious ones. Outside of Wilder/Wlad, who are the top five opponents that Fury has faced? The guy is fighting Derek Chisora in 2022

Compare his top five opponents to Joshua’s and it’s fairly obvious why people had Joshua at the pinnacle of HW boxing…he was fighting the best around. There’s a repeated pattern of Fury swerving tough fights and that’s why he is taking most of the flack for all the missed fights.

 

[telstar96]

i agree it’s a shit division, and he’s not fought anyone who’s anyone in it. he’s a pussy.

I disagree that HW is a shit division. The talent pool is much better than the 2000s-early 2010s. There's plenty of talented fighters, some good fights are getting made but the division is being held up by Fury's antics and continuous rematch clauses from AJ.

 

[DannyCAFC]

Listen credit to Francis - performed much better and LOOKED much better than most including people including I thought he would.

But the people crying robbery... please post your round-by-round scorecards because I'd love to know exactly what rounds people gave him.

I thought it was close but still gave Fury the nod - at best it was 95-94 Ngannou and that is giving him all the close rounds. By no means was this a robbery, albeit still extremely surprising that it was so competitive.

 

[Zen]

I guess the problem isn't so much the judges.... it's that they actively encouraged, albeit not necassarily forced, to decide a winner in a round, even when feck all happens. This is where the mindset of favouring someone comes in. 10-10 rounds should be way more common than they are and I had 3 rounds that I'd happily score 10-10 last night. That's why I give it to Ngannou, by 2, thanks to his knockdown.

 

[pocco]

i agree it’s a shit division, and he’s not fought anyone who’s anyone in it. he’s a pussy.

He's fought Wlad and Wilder, soon I think he'll add Usyk to that list. Who else is there? Genuine question. Nobody is interested in seeing him fight AJ.

 

[pocco]

Pulev and Povetkin are obvious ones. Outside of Wilder/Wlad, who are the top five opponents that Fury has faced? The guy is fighting Derek Chisora in 2022

Compare his top five opponents to Joshua’s and it’s fairly obvious why people had Joshua at the pinnacle of HW boxing…he was fighting the best around. There’s a repeated pattern of Fury swerving tough fights and that’s why he is taking most of the flack for all the missed fights.

Why didn't AJ fight Wilder? Fury did, 3 times in fact. That was the fight everybody wanted for AJ. Its 2023 and he's fighting Helenius and Jermaine Franklin AJ actually stopped being the pinnacle of boxing when he fought half decent fighters and the casuals realised he's shit. They should have realised that when he was losing to B level fighters like Ruiz, and struggling with the likes of Takam and Povetkin. I find it hard to believe Fury ducks certain fighters when he was the first of these lot to take on Wlad and beat him, which nobody believed he could do. Then he faced Wilder who nobody decent would touch as they wanted to protect their 0.

The names on AJs resume aren't exactly HoF level either and that's because most fighters in the division are useless. Pulev isn't a top level fighter or anywhere near it. Povetkin is OK but not great.

 

[DixieDean]

Why didn't AJ fight Wilder? Fury did, 3 times in fact. That was the fight everybody wanted for AJ. Its 2023 and he's fighting Helenius and Jermaine Franklin AJ actually stopped being the pinnacle of boxing when he fought half decent fighters and the casuals realised he's shit. They should have realised that when he was losing to B level fighters like Ruiz, and struggling with the likes of Takam and Povetkin. I find it hard to believe Fury ducks certain fighters when he was the first of these lot to take on Wlad and beat him, which nobody believed he could do. Then he faced Wilder who nobody decent would touch as they wanted to protect their 0.

The names on AJs resume aren't exactly HoF level either and that's because most fighters in the division are useless. Pulev isn't a top level fighter or anywhere near it. Povetkin is OK but not great.

The wilder fight has been tough to make. I'm not sure who is to blame. And without being there it's impossible to know. It looks like it's signed for december though. Unless one of them now want have a easy payday against Francis

The reason I respect AJ is that, outside of the wilder question mark, he's always tried to fight the best imo. His record says as much. Unlike someone I can think of.

 

[DixieDean]

He's fought Wlad and Wilder, soon I think he'll add Usyk to that list. Who else is there? Genuine question. Nobody is interested in seeing him fight AJ.

What? The AJ would still be huge. Fury's resume is a joke. Two good fighters and he's 35. He's still not fought Usyk and I'm waiting for his excuse to drop out of it.

 

[Dan_F]

Why didn't AJ fight Wilder? Fury did, 3 times in fact. That was the fight everybody wanted for AJ. Its 2023 and he's fighting Helenius and Jermaine Franklin AJ actually stopped being the pinnacle of boxing when he fought half decent fighters and the casuals realised he's shit. They should have realised that when he was losing to B level fighters like Ruiz, and struggling with the likes of Takam and Povetkin. I find it hard to believe Fury ducks certain fighters when he was the first of these lot to take on Wlad and beat him, which nobody believed he could do. Then he faced Wilder who nobody decent would touch as they wanted to protect their 0.

The names on AJs resume aren't exactly HoF level either and that's because most fighters in the division are useless. Pulev isn't a top level fighter or anywhere near it. Povetkin is OK but not great.

Of course he wouldn’t duck Wlad, he was barely known outside the UK before that. You can’t really duck from a position of weakness. From what I can remember with AJ/Wilder, there were lots of negotiations and you’ll have to make your mind up about who you believe, but it ended with Povetkin being the mandatory and AJ having to do it.

The likes of Pulev and Povetkin while not HoF level, are far better than whoever Fury has fought outside of Wlad/Wilder. You can’t be denying that? Take those two names out and you’re left with scraps on Fury’s record.

Parker/Povetkin vs Sefri/Pianeta in 2018.
Ruiz/Pulev vs Schwarz/Wallin in 2019.

I’m not talking about who AJ is fighting now, that all changed after the losses - although he still took two fights against Usyk. This discussion isn’t about who is better out of Fury and AJ. Fury is World Champion and should be fighting bigger names than AJ. Chisora/Whyte/Ngannou as your last three opponents is embarrassing as reigning world champion.

 

[Withnail]

What? The AJ would still be huge. Fury's resume is a joke. Two good fighters and he's 35. He's still not fought Usyk and I'm waiting for his excuse to drop out of it.

I think it's hilarious you're always bigging up Joshua and ranting on about how Fury is a bum.

 

[Plastic Evra]

Lot of hand wringing over "The State of Boxing™" but it might actually be good for boxing to see more popular MMA fighters jump in and bring new eyes on the Sweet Science.
I don't think most people are really satisfied with the state of the HW division anyway ? Let fresh blood in.

 

[DixieDean]

I think it's hilarious you're always bigging up Joshua and ranting on about how Fury is a bum.

I know you're joking, but to be clear, Fury is not a bum! He's really talented. Just overrated.

 

[padr81]

So Tyson outlanded Francis in 6 rounds and one round saw 5 shots landed each where Fury was more accurate. Fury outlanded him by 14-6 in the last 2 rounds as well.
Interesting as I was blind when I stated Tyson won 7 rounds last night and was told there was no clear winner in rounds 9 and 10 and they were coin flips.

 

[Plastic Evra]

And now Usyk insists the contract says December 23 for their fight, as just after the Ngannou fight there were suddenly voices to suggest postponing that fight by a month...

Scheduling Fury with just two months apart between Ngannou and Usyk seems somewhat risky in hindsight.

 

[simonhch]

Forget Fury, Usyk, Anderson, Sanche or whoever, Moses Itauma is the next big thing in the heavy weight boxing World. Best heavy weight I’ve seen since a teenage Mike Tyson.

I agree that that kid is amazing. Only 18 years old too. Maybe the best young talent in boxing. Definitely the best young HW. Excited to see where he can go. He's not huge by modern HW standards, but he's certainly not small either, 6'6", so three inches taller than Usyk. And he already weighs in at about 235lbs. Thing about him though, is that he has the hand speed of a much smaller fighter, he's very Tyson-esque in terms of his speed, and that speed at his weight and size, produces a lot of power. His uppercuts in particular are very eye catching.

Excited to see where he can go in the sport.

 

[G-manc]

And now Usyk insists the contract says December 23 for their fight, as just after the Ngannou fight there were suddenly voices to suggest postponing that fight by a month...

Scheduling Fury with just two months apart between Ngannou and Usyk seems somewhat risky in hindsight.

No date has ever been set in stone but he’s bound to say that with Fury having a tougher time than expected on Saturday. He’ll need at least a week off now too.

I don’t blame Usyk but he said he always has a 14 week camp a couple of weeks ago.

 

[G-manc]

Parker/Povetkin vs Sefri/Pianeta in 2018.
Ruiz/Pulev vs Schwarz/Wallin in 2019.

He fought Sefer and Pianeta after a 3 year layoff, dropping 10 stone and cocaine and alcohol addiction. Who did you expect him to come back against? Whether you hate him or not, you can’t use this as a stick to beat him with.

I don’t get why Ruiz is held up as some sort of yardstick either; his biggest claim to fame prior to Joshua was going 12 round with Joe Parker. He’s referenced as ‘world class’ because he knocked out Joshua. He then spent the time between their first and second fight in the boozer.

You’re also a bit inconsistent in who you consider to be credible - Otto Wallin keeps being mentioned as a potential AJ opponent by Fast Eddie in 2023 and if you consider Whyte to be embarrassing, why was AJ fighting him in August prior to his failed test?

Outside the top guys, it’s not a good weight class in terms of quality. If you’re using the likes of Kubrat Pulev as a barometer to judge the legitimacy of someone’s record, then your argument fails.

There’s context to everything which tends to get warped dependent on people’s preference for a fighter; e.g Klitschko was past it or had personal issues when Fury beat him, whereas Joshua gets credit for going life and death with him down the line, Wilder hasn’t fought anyone and is limited but is considered the most dangerous puncher around when they are trying to match him with AJ now. You can’t have it both ways.

Are you really that bothered that Fury has fought Ngannou when he is fighting Usyk for the undisputed title next?

 

[cyberman]

No date has ever been set in stone but he’s bound to say that with Fury having a tougher time than expected on Saturday. He’ll need at least a week off now too.

I don’t blame Usyk but he said he always has a 14 week camp a couple of weeks ago.

Fury himself said 23rd was set in stone and he would sue Usyk for backing out while the Usyk comments were a bad translation

 

[Gavinb33]

Why didn't AJ fight Wilder? Fury did, 3 times in fact. That was the fight everybody wanted for AJ. Its 2023 and he's fighting Helenius and Jermaine Franklin AJ actually stopped being the pinnacle of boxing when he fought half decent fighters and the casuals realised he's shit. They should have realised that when he was losing to B level fighters like Ruiz, and struggling with the likes of Takam and Povetkin. I find it hard to believe Fury ducks certain fighters when he was the first of these lot to take on Wlad and beat him, which nobody believed he could do. Then he faced Wilder who nobody decent would touch as they wanted to protect their 0.

The names on AJs resume aren't exactly HoF level either and that's because most fighters in the division are useless. Pulev isn't a top level fighter or anywhere near it. Povetkin is OK but not great.

Fury is miles better than AJ, its not a push to say AJ's record is better though Fury in my view has fought two guys that are good and one of those he fought 3 times and the third fight was a bit of a joke as he'd already "beaten" the fella x2

 

[Dan_F]

He fought Sefer and Pianeta after a 3 year layoff, dropping 10 stone and cocaine and alcohol addiction. Who did you expect him to come back against? Whether you hate him or not, you can’t use this as a stick to beat him with.

I don’t get why Ruiz is held up as some sort of yardstick either; his biggest claim to fame prior to Joshua was going 12 round with Joe Parker. He’s referenced as ‘world class’ because he knocked out Joshua. He then spent the time between their first and second fight in the boozer.

You’re also a bit inconsistent in who you consider to be credible - Otto Wallin keeps being mentioned as a potential AJ opponent by Fast Eddie in 2023 and if you consider Whyte to be embarrassing, why was AJ fighting him in August prior to his failed test?

Outside the top guys, it’s not a good weight class in terms of quality. If you’re using the likes of Kubrat Pulev as a barometer to judge the legitimacy of someone’s record, then your argument fails.

There’s context to everything which tends to get warped dependent on people’s preference for a fighter; e.g Klitschko was past it or had personal issues when Fury beat him, whereas Joshua gets credit for going life and death with him down the line, Wilder hasn’t fought anyone and is limited but is considered the most dangerous puncher around when they are trying to match him with AJ now. You can’t have it both ways.

Are you really that bothered that Fury has fought Ngannou when he is fighting Usyk for the undisputed title next?

I fully understand Fury’s reasons for taking easy fights coming off the lay off, however, those are two fights on his record while AJ was fighting harder opponents. You don’t get to be discussed as the best ever because you took three years off due to mental health issues and had to take easier fights. I’m afraid that Pulev and Povetkin are just flat out better than Fury’s other opponents, regardless of how well you rate them.

I don’t really see the relevance of who AJ is trying to fight now. Fury is the world champion, AJ had some devastating losses and is trying to rebuild his career. No one is trying to claim AJ as being up with the best heavyweights ever.

Let’s see if Fury does win a couple of fights against Usyk, I have zero faith that they won’t rematch the Ngannou fight next. Hopefully AJ wins a Wilder fight and fights Fury at some point. At that point we can start discussing whether Tyson is top 10.

 

[Plastic Evra]

No date has ever been set in stone but he’s bound to say that with Fury having a tougher time than expected on Saturday. He’ll need at least a week off now too.

I don’t blame Usyk but he said he always has a 14 week camp a couple of weeks ago.

It's boxing so who knows what is actually set or not despite claims. Dec. 23 seemed to be an agreed date for both sides, we'll see if it holds. Naively I'd agree pushing it back a but is probably the best to hope to have the two at their best... But like many there's always the suspicion Fury might back out that fight.

I wouldn't be shocked a Ngannou rematch would pay more than fighting Usyk too. I think Ngannou will tend to his contractual PFL MMA match -though it maybe depends who they can have in front of him- before perhaps making another foray in boxing. I'd rather he fight someone else, if I had to choose.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Sums up my thoughts quite well, he's the proper chatty man, not a fighting man.

 

[DixieDean]

If Fury fights and beats Usyk I will give him huge props. But I don't think the fight will happen.

 

[fergies coat]

I think Francis could have a real go at the heavyweight division.

I think if other mma fighters come in to boxing at lower weights they will have no chance. For example someone coming in at welterweight the skills gap would be way to much for them, but at heavyweight where you can rely on power more he might be okay.

Look at Wilder, he's a former wbc champion and his boxing skills are poor but he has raw power.

 

[T00lsh3d]

Not that there’d necessarily be a big market for it, but I’d fancy seeing Dubois vs Ngannou.
Both coming off surprisingly decent performances against the big two, it’d be a good learning fight for Francis but considering what’s just happened it’d also be a decent win for Dubois.
Plus it’d probably be pretty entertaining with someone going to the shadow realm

 

[Redstain]

Lot of hand wringing over "The State of Boxing™" but it might actually be good for boxing to see more popular MMA fighters jump in and bring new eyes on the Sweet Science.
I don't think most people are really satisfied with the state of the HW division anyway ? Let fresh blood in.

Boxing has been the best it's been in years this year. To casuals the sport dying but for the genuine fans there's been terrific bouts from start to finish this annum. Mostly every division has shined with the exception of the heavyweight:

Inoue / Fulton,
Haney / Loma (Prograis in December)
Benavidez / Plant
Teofimo / Taylor
Beterbiev / Yarde
Crawford / Spence
Munguia / Derevyanchenko,
Rakhimov / Cordina
Gervonta / Garcia (casual)
Zhang / Joyce (good fight).
Andrade / Benavidez (In November)

 

[flameinthesun]

Eddie Hearn saying Francis should rematch Fury if Fury doesn't fight Usyk but if he does then Francis should fight Joshua. Funny seeing how they didn't want a part of Francis because it was a "gimmick" and now they are pretty much begging to fight him.

 

[pocco]

Eddie Hearn saying Francis should rematch Fury if Fury doesn't fight Usyk but if he does then Francis should fight Joshua. Funny seeing how they didn't want a part of Francis because it was a "gimmick" and now they are pretty much begging to fight him.

Laughable. I reckon he could beat AJ though - Hearn would be best suited not going down that road.

 

[pocco]

Boxing has been the best it's been in years this year. To casuals the sport dying but for the genuine fans there's been terrific bouts from start to finish this annum. Mostly every division has shined with the exception of the heavyweight:

Inoue / Fulton,
Haney / Loma (Prograis in December)
Benavidez / Plant
Teofimo / Taylor
Beterbiev / Yarde
Crawford / Spence
Munguia / Derevyanchenko,
Rakhimov / Cordina
Gervonta / Garcia (casual)
Zhang / Joyce (good fight).
Andrade / Benavidez (In November)

There are still some great fights out there. I think the majority of this discussion is relating to the HW division and how the names aren't there for Fury to put himself in the HoF picture. His or any current HWs record will never stack up against those of years gone by. It's not Fury or anybody else's fault though.

 

[pocco]

I fully understand Fury’s reasons for taking easy fights coming off the lay off, however, those are two fights on his record while AJ was fighting harder opponents. You don’t get to be discussed as the best ever because you took three years off due to mental health issues and had to take easier fights. I’m afraid that Pulev and Povetkin are just flat out better than Fury’s other opponents, regardless of how well you rate them.

I don’t really see the relevance of who AJ is trying to fight now. Fury is the world champion, AJ had some devastating losses and is trying to rebuild his career. No one is trying to claim AJ as being up with the best heavyweights ever.

Let’s see if Fury does win a couple of fights against Usyk, I have zero faith that they won’t rematch the Ngannou fight next. Hopefully AJ wins a Wilder fight and fights Fury at some point. At that point we can start discussing whether Tyson is top 10.

Is anybody claiming Fury the best ever? You've now made this discussion into that just to downplay Fury. Earlier you made it a Fury's opponents vs AJ's opponents argument. Which is pointless because everybody can see that Fury is/was the better boxer between those two.

 

[Dan_F]

Is anybody claiming Fury the best ever? You've now made this discussion into that just to downplay Fury. Earlier you made it a Fury's opponents vs AJ's opponents argument. Which is pointless because everybody can see that Fury is/was the better boxer between those two.

Yes. Before the fight I posted a quote in this thread about a BBC article which was claiming that Tyson, with a win, would move into the discussion of greatest ever. There is always noise on social media (granted this means nothing) about where he sits on that list of best ever.

I’m discussing quality of opponents because his list of opponents is quite poor compared to a seemingly average heavyweight in AJ, let alone some of the best ever. I don’t see how it’s possible to make a judgement on Fury’s GOAT claim when his third best opponent is arguably Dillian Whyte.

It seems to me that since the Wlad fight, Fury has never taken the hardest fight available at that time. Hopefully he disproves this with Usyk, but I honestly won’t believe it’s happening until they’re in the ring beforehand.

 

[Fortitude]

Eddie Hearn saying Francis should rematch Fury if Fury doesn't fight Usyk but if he does then Francis should fight Joshua. Funny seeing how they didn't want a part of Francis because it was a "gimmick" and now they are pretty much begging to fight him.

Because he's going to be box office simply for the fact a head could come off at any time. Really bad idea for Joshua...

 

[pocco]

Yes. Before the fight I posted a quote in this thread about a BBC article which was claiming that Tyson, with a win, would move into the discussion of greatest ever. There is always noise on social media (granted this means nothing) about where he sits on that list of best ever.

I’m discussing quality of opponents because his list of opponents is quite poor compared to a seemingly average heavyweight in AJ, let alone some of the best ever. I don’t see how it’s possible to make a judgement on Fury’s GOAT claim when his third best opponent is arguably Dillian Whyte.

It seems to me that since the Wlad fight, Fury has never taken the hardest fight available at that time. Hopefully he disproves this with Usyk, but I honestly won’t believe it’s happening until they’re in the ring beforehand.

I think he'll fight Usyk, but December is pushing it now. Even if he beats Usyk, a blown up cruiser, does that put him in GOAT discussions? Rightly or wrongly, and as much as I rate Fury, that will be difficult due to the lack of quality at HW.

Usyk fight is being built up as some gatekeeper for the pinnacle of boxing. If you really stop and think about that, it tells you a lot. And I'm obviously not trying to discredit Fury, I really rate him highly, but he'll never have the names on his CV that the greats have. AJ, Wilder, Usyk isn't enough really. Wlad is the only one. He could have done to beat 3 or 4 guys of his calibre, but they're just not there.