Im not going to comment on how this reflects on the quality of the leagues but Leipzeg were without their 3 first choice CBs and were forced to play their two starting full backs at center back.
The relative strength of the Premier League
- Thread starter Wumminator
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Little point in judging yet because these are two legged games with some crazy reversals in recent years.
That said, I mentioned on this site after the group stage that it wouldn't surprise me if all the English CL sides went out this round given their draws and team situations currently. I don't see Spurs coming back because they have nothing upfront and unless Son returns that won't change. I watched the first half and it reminded me of United v Sevilla when Jose was in charge. He made zero adjustments for the second leg and that game played out the same as the first with United meekly rolling over.
There's a better chance Liverpool will come back but A Madrid are a really tricky side to break down and they have that lead.
Hard to see Chelsea beating Bayern and City v Madrid is a 'pick em' match although the not inconsiderable cheating cloud that looms over City will surely be causing some discord and fracture within the management and squad.
I think the English sides will fare better in the EL but there are lots of strong European sides too. If anything this season looks as level across the leagues as we've seen in a long time with no stand out sides. My feeling is that Barca will win it but then that's my feeling pretty much every year and I'm usually wrong.
That said, I mentioned on this site after the group stage that it wouldn't surprise me if all the English CL sides went out this round given their draws and team situations currently. I don't see Spurs coming back because they have nothing upfront and unless Son returns that won't change. I watched the first half and it reminded me of United v Sevilla when Jose was in charge. He made zero adjustments for the second leg and that game played out the same as the first with United meekly rolling over.
There's a better chance Liverpool will come back but A Madrid are a really tricky side to break down and they have that lead.
Hard to see Chelsea beating Bayern and City v Madrid is a 'pick em' match although the not inconsiderable cheating cloud that looms over City will surely be causing some discord and fracture within the management and squad.
I think the English sides will fare better in the EL but there are lots of strong European sides too. If anything this season looks as level across the leagues as we've seen in a long time with no stand out sides. My feeling is that Barca will win it but then that's my feeling pretty much every year and I'm usually wrong.
Agreed. European football has been a bit stale for a few seasons now. Sides like our 2008 group, Pep's Barcelona, early 90s or mid 00s Milan etc. would absolutely batter any team in world football right now.
It's a weird time in the PL. We have the best coaches, a number of the best players, but it feels like its too competitive for its own good. The top teams are all getting dragged down and leveled out by the competitiveness of the lower teams. Only Liverpool seem to be able to avoid it and that's because they're flying high on confidence, they should really have been beaten by lesser teams a few times this season.
The league definitely feels weak this season. Everyone bar Liverpool has issues. Even Liverpool don't look all that a lot of the time, they keep getting results but like the Wolves game they ride their luck a lot.
Yep, to me it’s quite obvious, I mean look at the teams you just listed and then compare it to some of those same teams now but to some people you’re not allowed to say it cos Liverpool something something.
That's a weird statement! Surely the more competitive a league is, the better?
I don't think it's fair to say the top teams have been dragged down by the lesser teams (how, exactly, could they do that?). It's more that most teams are getting better tactically and, perhaps to a lesser extent, physically. It's harder than it used to be to roll over the supposedly lesser sides because they are better organised, and tactically quite innovative.
Liverpool's dominance this season is both strange (they're not exactly full of galacticos) and instructive (they're a well balanced team rather than a bunch of galacticos). The fact that they have won a few games that they could have lost is indicative of that (I recall that we used to do the same).
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In most leagues you can set out your style and if you're good at it you need to spend less time focusing on your opponent. Look at Peps Barcelona, they didnt care what their opponents did (and it cost them once they lost a yard or two). When most teams cant compete the top teams can get really good at a specific tactic and play to their strengths.
In the PL you have to set up for the thugs of Burnley to the pretty passes of Arsenal and everything in between. All teams are good enough that you cant just steamroller them with your own style, you need to plan more for each opponent. It results in our teams being a bit of jacks of all trades and masters of none.
Of course it can go the other way and be too easy in a league, like with PSG not being able to keep up whenever they face a half decent team.
You think a lack of competition and getting tested actually helps you reach perfection?
You think other leagues don't have teams like Burnley? Are they unique in Europe?
You think other leagues don't have tactical diversity?
How far did Pep compromise his philosophy when he won his PLs?
Confidence is winning four on the bounce after a good result. 26 wins and only one draw is as close to a proof of domination and superiority as you can get. For the past decade the narrative you are employing right now has been rampant, yet 90% of the time English teams have been getting spanked in Europe by the likes Valencia, Bilbao, Sevilla etc. I remember about a couple of years ago the record was that English teams lost 23 out of the last 27 outings in Europe against Spanish teams. Yes, actually lost - I mean failing to win 23 out of 27 would have been an indictment, but they actually lost 23/27. The whole EPL hype is just an example of 'if you repeat something often enough it becomes the truth' - (the truth according sky in this case).
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Are you agreeing with me here?
I'm saying the PL is too competitive for its own good i.e it makes the top teams less effective, which is why we often get beaten by Spanish teams. Spain is probably the perfect mix of competitive games but not to the point where sometimes it simply comes down to attrition.
@11101
How does Liverpool winning every single game fit into the England is too competitive narrative? How do you even know that Spain is less competitive when Getafe is sitting in 3rd place and teams like Vigo take points from both big Madrid clubs?
And what about Union Berlin in comparison to Burnley?
"I loathe all that passing for the sake of it, all that tiki-taka. It's so much rubbish and has no purpose. You have to pass the ball with a clear intention, with the aim of making it into the opposition's goal. It's not about passing for the sake of it."
(c) Pep 2014. City's possession and passing success stats actually went up and their number of counter attacking goals went down after his first PL season.
How does Liverpool winning every single game fit into the England is too competitive narrative? How do you even know that Spain is less competitive when Getafe is sitting in 3rd place and teams like Vigo take points from both big Madrid clubs?
And what about Union Berlin in comparison to Burnley?
"I loathe all that passing for the sake of it, all that tiki-taka. It's so much rubbish and has no purpose. You have to pass the ball with a clear intention, with the aim of making it into the opposition's goal. It's not about passing for the sake of it."
(c) Pep 2014. City's possession and passing success stats actually went up and their number of counter attacking goals went down after his first PL season.
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Not sure if we agree. I don't believe getting dominated in Europe like that by Spanish teams was due to the EPL being "too competitive". I think it's because La Liga has been the better league by far - team for team. I mean what you're saying clearly isn't true for this - or last year (when Liverpool lost only once and City got 98 points) or the year before when City broke every possible record, or the previous one when Chelsea broke the most wins in a season, most consecutive wins in a season, least number of draws in a season... Does this sound like a league where "the top teams are all getting dragged down and levelled out by the lower teams"? In fact, that's been truer for La Liga than the EPL. I'm personally convinced that if you made a combined La Liga + EPL super league, there's a good chance all 6 relegated teams would be from the EPL. The likes of Alaves and Celta would probably play all these tough boys in the lower half off the park.Are you agreeing with me here?
I'm saying the PL is too competitive for its own good i.e it makes the top teams less effective, which is why we often get beaten by Spanish teams. Spain is probably the perfect mix of competitive games but not to the point where sometimes it simply comes down to attrition.
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The biggest difference between the PL and other top leagues are the number of games due to the domestic cups and the schedule, the weather, and perhaps most important of all, the refs
It is definitely far more physically grinding than the rest, but that doesn't have much to do with competitiveness or strength of the league(these things can change radically from year to year)
It is definitely far more physically grinding than the rest, but that doesn't have much to do with competitiveness or strength of the league(these things can change radically from year to year)
And who is in 1st and 2nd? It doesn't really need asking does it.
Liverpool are hardly having a normal season are they? Compare the two tables. There are 4 points less in England from European spots to relegation, and mid table in the PL is 3 points higher. It's not a huge difference, but combined with the lighter schedule, it is a difference.
So the current gap between 1st and the rest is irrelevant, but current 5th or 6th and 18th is the defining metric of competitiveness.
10th/11th has 3 points more with two played games more = league is more competitive, because 0.01 difference in points per game. I see.
FYI Real didn't finish top 2 in the previous two seasons.
And please, enlighten me on the stylistic gaps between Union Berlin and Burnley.
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It's not really a matter of opinion when it can be largely quantified.
https://statathlon.com/the-most-competitive-football-league/
https://runrepeat.com/most-competitive-soccer-leagues-in-europe-analysis
https://www.thestatszone.com/archive/how-competitive-are-the-top-five-european-leagues-13538
There was also a large study published in the NY Times which i cannot find right now.
All point to the PL being the most competitive over the last few years.
I mean:
first link:
The findings from this scientific research establish some really interesting conclusions. The first one is that is not possible to describe a league as the most competitive from top to bottom. The segmentation in groups was helpful in terms of awareness about which one is more competitive than the other by categorizing the competiveness. Then, the use of standard deviation method made easier to define the hierarchical competitiveness among the leagues per category. Finally, the T-test method showed which leagues are well-balanced (stable data situation) and which have several changes and variances.
third link [doesn't go further than 2016]:
The sample is composed of the top five European Leagues since the 1997/98 season. According to the table below, it is clear that on average the most imbalanced league is Serie A, marginally followed by the Premier League. Both leagues have ratios above 0.5, which indicates that they are closer to the perfect imbalance than the perfect balance. On the other hand, La Liga and Bundesliga have identical scores and toe the line between the trend of balance and imbalance. Finally, Ligue 1 is the most balanced league we studied, with a score of 0.447 being the closest league to a perfect balance:
The second link shows a number of interesting comparisons of champtions/top 4 vs bottom teams, each favouring a different league and then proclaims the PL most competitive, well sort of.
Still waiting to understand what makes Burnley so much more special tactically than Union Berlin btw.
1st link - "Premier League remains for over a decade the league with the firmly lowest point difference" i.e the most competitive.
2nd link - "the Premier League has been the most competitive major European soccer league during the past decade "
3rd link - no quotes but the figures show that the PL from 2011-2016 has been the second most competitive after Ligue 1.
Interesting links. Thanks, but have you actually fully read and understood these studies?
The first link evaluates the seasons 2000-2017.
Fig 1 shows the point difference between 1st and 2nd, with PD being closer then PL
Fig 2 shows the point difference between 1st and 5th , with PL being closer then PD
Fig 3 shows the point difference between 17th and 20th , with PD being closer then PL
The second link evaluates the seasons 2009-2018
Fig 1 and 2 show the average number of game left until the title is decided, with PD being marginally closer then PL. This Similar to Fig 1 from the 1st link
Fig 3 - 7 show the point difference between 1st and 2nd, with PD being closer then PL. As in study 1
Fig 3 - 8 show the point difference between 1st and 5th, with PL being closer then PD. As in study 1
Fig 9 shows the number of different champions within the last 5 and 10 years with PL having more then PD
Fig 10 shows the number of different tems in top 4 with PL having more within last 5 years and PD within last 10 years
Fig 11 shows betting odds for promoted teams winning against the standing champion with PL being closer the PD
Fig 12-17 shows points dropped of champions vs 5 bottom sides, with with PD being marginally closer then PL
Fig 12-18 shows points dropped of top 3 vs 5 bottom sides, with with PL being closer then PD
The third link evaluates the seasons 1997-2016 and uses a metric where the point difference between first and last within a cohort is normalized to the maximum possible point difference
Fig 1 shows that comparing the whole league PD is clsoer then PL
Fig 2 and 3 give examples
Fig 4 shows the temporal evolution grouped into 3-4 year periods and that between 2011/12 and 2015/16 PL was closer then PD
Fig 5-9 give again the temporal evolution for 4 subgroups of 5 teams each. For the last period 2011/12 and 2015/16 the PL was closer in the first subgroup (Top) 5 the PD and the PD was closer in the subgroups 2,3 and 4
How can you post these links and state "It's not really a matter of opinion when it can be largely quantified." To me this looks more like, you took your preferred stat or quote and ignored everything else.
Since United last won a league (ok I'm counting Liverpool already so I'm totally cheating here. I'm taking currently top placed in the other leagues too).
Anyway, over 8 seasons:
5 teams have won the Premier League
3 teams have won La Liga
2 teams have won Ligue 1
1 team has won the Scottish Premiership
1 team has won the Bundesliga
1 team has won Serie A
Anyway, over 8 seasons:
5 teams have won the Premier League
3 teams have won La Liga
2 teams have won Ligue 1
1 team has won the Scottish Premiership
1 team has won the Bundesliga
1 team has won Serie A
Incredible dominance by Juve really and to lesser extent Bayern Munich. You think back to 90s and early 00s and both were superpowers still at home and in CL yet so many different winners of Bundesliga and Serie A compared to what it is now.
You should really go back a decade though and then you can put in Montpellier winning the french league.
Considering PSG have the most advantage of any team in the major leagues two other title winners in last 10 years is a minor miracle.Does this statement not resonate, “teapot kettlel, somewhat. Especially, following your win over Chelsea?
Change it to last 10 years
In Ligue 1, if you go back a decade you will have Lille, Montpellier, PSG and Monaco.Incredible dominance by Juve really and to lesser extent Bayern Munich. You think back to 90s and early 00s and both were superpowers still at home and in CL yet so many different winners of Bundesliga and Serie A compared to what it is now.
You should really go back a decade though and then you can put in Montpellier winning the french league.
https://i.ibb.co/sqTg07g/Untitled.png
You people think it was all a stroll on the park under the Fergie era. They had to grind out results along the way. There are no easy games in Europe.
The Wolves match. Rookie manager, and Espanyol made 9 changes. Plus Wolves are a strong team.... plus Wolves were at home. You will get pumped if you make 9 changes.
https://www.google.com/search?q=man...TF-8#sie=m;/g/11hyk3c__f;2;/m/02_tc;dt;fp;1;; City make teams look easy because take this game for example.... 91% pass accuracy.
You people think it was all a stroll on the park under the Fergie era. They had to grind out results along the way. There are no easy games in Europe.
The Wolves match. Rookie manager, and Espanyol made 9 changes. Plus Wolves are a strong team.... plus Wolves were at home. You will get pumped if you make 9 changes.
https://www.google.com/search?q=man...TF-8#sie=m;/g/11hyk3c__f;2;/m/02_tc;dt;fp;1;; City make teams look easy because take this game for example.... 91% pass accuracy.
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This.
People cherrypick some stats and try to settle the debate like it’s a foregone conclusion. Weak argumentation.
Football is a headache for analytics guys because it’s so hard to quantify. It’s not like baseball or American football that breaks up play constantly or where teams have several specialists that provide unique functions of differing complexity.
We’re in a really interesting period were the period of La Liga dominance is finally over and it’s neck and neck with the EPL. And at the same time, the Bundesliga and Serie A seem to be catching up. Seeing Atalanta and Leipzig in the CL was a joy to watch as a neutral. This is a real good development for European football as a whole.
If any other league had a team winning all but 1 game (which was a draw) it would be looked at as a weak league or a farmers league. Even PSG have lost games in France
Liverpool are excellent and City will always be a threat but the rest of the Premier League is bobbins.
That said, the current Spanish league isn't that great either. Real Madrid, Barcelona and Atletico are the weakest they have been for years.
That said, the current Spanish league isn't that great either. Real Madrid, Barcelona and Atletico are the weakest they have been for years.
Still very strong, but some big teams having it touch.
Although that is a good point, it didn’t stop people calling the Spanish league the ‘sunny SPL’ when Barcelona and Madrid were the best in Europe. There used to be claims that the rest in Spain are terrible and would be relegated in England.
The EPL even when had no teams in the quarter finals a few years ago were excused due to no winter break. The English league gets a lot of leeway in my opinion. Liverpool as great as they are are putting up FIFA/FM points tallies that shouldn’t occur in a major league.
The premier league went through 3/4 seasons without having anyone in the later stages, but now that has changed again. A team that finished 4th got to CL final. 2 EL finalists were PL.
PSG got knocked out by a team that finished 7th in the league when they are flying in their own league.
It shouldn't but it is, and the way they are this season they would do the same in every other league. We have about 4/5 teams in this league that can beat the best.
In the last 64 league games, only 1 team has beaten Liverpool, In Europe same time frame 6 teams have in about 20 games
Yep, they know they can get away with a loss or two in the group stages. When it gets to business end, havent lost a knock out tie under Klopp yet.
English Prem has had about 6 different winners in last 10 years
German max 2
Italu max 2
Spain 3
France max 2
What utter BS.
That was a fabulous team, on paper and sometimes when they clicked in reality.
But that Milan team gave up huge leads vs Deportivo and Liverpool, and nearly vs PSG too. They sometimes struggled to batter mediocre/average sides of their own generation - and you think they'd smash the best teams around today?
All that Milan side was guilty of was complacency. Against Liverpool and Deportivo they had absolutely battered them early on, and then switched off.
In 5 years they made 3 finals, winning 2. They were a brilliant team.
And they could barely win the league.
They were indeed a brilliant team, but to suggest they'd mop the floor with the top dogs of today is complete and utter bullshit.
Further to this, that's literally what Barcelona have done in two seasons (gone ahead and then got complacent), but they've won leagues (and nothing in Europe since 2015).
We've made 2 finals, winning 1, and absolutely dominated the league - yes I'm counting it (and a Europa Cup runners up and league runners up to an incredible league team - admittedly not as impressive in itself of course but it's just adding up, plus however far we get in Europe this season).
In terms of consistency and keeping in line with that argument, those achievements are no different and comparable to the Milan team you claim would wipe the floor with today's team...
This whole thing smacks of the usual "Europe was only at its best when we were and has been on a downward spiral since then" argument which is complete bullshit of course.
It could be argued that the European teams were in fact in their own transition period between the great Premier League era of 2005-2010. You had that brilliant yet bizarre Milan side, Juve won used to win leagues and didn't go far in Europe, Barcelona were great one season then awful the next, Madrid basically didn't get past round of 16 or quarters or something for a good 6-7 years, Bayern weren't up to much, where the hell were Dortmund, Ajax etc?
It's not a good argument, but it's a counterargument that could be made - but it's about as valid as "European football was only amazing for that small period between 2006-2010, oh and perhaps 1999"
Do you have to be insulting in every post you make? Drop the act, okay.