The Rise of the Right Wing In Ireland.

[Withnail]

Not really. By ‘we went too far left’ I took Vialli to mean too far to the left culturally and socially.

He's quoting the American right though, and it's a bit of a trope.

It's not a serious analysis of Irish politics or society.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I agree, largely, but there is much nuance to Ireland's rather unique economy (being a quasi-tax haven).

The failure has been housing and healthcare. Consider dental. Is that really "free healthcare" when provide clinics are the majority and many won't accept the "universal" medical card? Now, you can point the blame on the government for not meeting pricing or on the private sector (it's something that has to change, either way).

Other than that, we know the nightmares -- not just Ireland, mind -- regarding healthcare capacity and waiting times.

When you look at the healthcare failure though, it’s largely been driven by policies that would be considered as driven by the left; rather than the right. Our state invests more money per capita in public healthcare service than all but a handful of countries globally. Within the EU we're usually in the top 2 or 3 countries in terms of % GDP allocated to healthcare. But where is all this money going? It's not going on infrasructure, that's for sure. When it comes to hospital beds and hospital equipment (CT scans etc) per capita we're close to the median. The one area where we consistently massively over-spend in our health budget is staffing costs. And having unions with the power to negotiate these sort of pay deals for HSE employees (in addition to excellent job security) is the exact opposite to what you'd expect if our healthcare was being overseen by a very right wing government. STaffing costs aside, the HSE is phenomenally inefficient when it comes to setting targets, tracking outcomes, taking responsibility for quality and generally making sure it gives the government the best bang for it buck. Again, the opposite to what you'd expect in the healthcare service of a right wing government. But exactly what you'd expect in the jobs for the boys cronyism mentality that seems to be the way Ireland works across the board.

Housing is a whole other can of worms. Which I know much less about. So I'll leave that to the better informed amongst ye.

 

[christy87]

When you look at the healthcare failure though, it’s largely been driven by policies that would be considered as driven by the left; rather than the right. Our state invests more money per capita in public healthcare service than all but a handful of countries globally. Within the EU we're usually in the top 2 or 3 countries in terms of % GDP allocated to healthcare. But where is all this money going? It's not going on infrasructure, that's for sure. When it comes to hospital beds and hospital equipment (CT scans etc) per capita we're close to the median. The one area where we consistently massively over-spend in our health budget is staffing costs. And having unions with the power to negotiate these sort of pay deals for HSE employees (in addition to excellent job security) is the exact opposite to what you'd expect if our healthcare was being overseen by a very right wing government. STaffing costs aside, the HSE is phenomenally inefficient when it comes to setting targets, tracking outcomes, taking responsibility for quality and generally making sure it gives the government the best bang for it buck. Again, the opposite to what you'd expect in the healthcare service of a right wing government. But exactly what you'd expect in the jobs for the boys cronyism mentality that seems to be the way Ireland works across the board.

Housing is a whole other can of worms. Which I know much less about. So I'll leave that to the better informed amongst ye.

1 little question of that GDP spent on health, how much of it was spent on one of the most expensive buildings in the planet.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

1 little question of that GDP spent on health, how much of it was spent on one of the most expensive buildings in the planet.

I have no idea but spending on the children's hospital will count as infrastructure spend, where we've never been amongst the biggest spenders. So it's a good thing that at least some of the billions we piss away on our health service each year will have something to show for it. Ideally, a lot more to show for that amount of money but still...

 

[Raven]

What would you expect from a "left wing" government in Ireland, in economic development terms. That is, if you could write the bullet points of a hypothetical "left wing" manifesto, for any political party (putting aside historical positions), what would it be?

Good question, I'll do my best to bullet points a few key policies I think are important in Ireland:

• Fix and upgrade transport infrastructure (invest in trains, invest in buses, invest in roads and cycle lanes).
• Fix the housing problem. Build lots and lots of houses and apartments. Purchase all dormant housing stock(over time, create some kind of use it or lose it policy). Ban Airbnb. Heavily tax landlordism at all levels and being in proper rent control and reform. Government backed mortgages for first time buyers.
• Use the budget excess to fund a national works program to cater for both of the bullet points above.
• End corporate tax avoidance once and for all. If they feel like leaving, purchase their assets and repurpose them.
• Clamp down on corruption in politics, an end to brown paper envelopes.
• Invest heavily in education of all types and work to make Ireland a country that young people can live in.
• Invest in green energy and don't give away the assets to corporations, sell any excess generated to other nations. Nationalise all energy.
• Strengthen workers rights, strengthen unions and potentially introduce a new subject in school to help kids know their rights before they hit the real world.
• Legalise weed and tax it. Decriminalise all other drugs.

I'm sure I'm missing absolutely loads of stuff their and a lot of it could be poorly thought through but basically I would just like to see a left wing government.

 

[moses]

When you look at the healthcare failure though, it’s largely been driven by policies that would be considered as driven by the left; rather than the right. Our state invests more money per capita in public healthcare service than all but a handful of countries globally. Within the EU we're usually in the top 2 or 3 countries in terms of % GDP allocated to healthcare. But where is all this money going? It's not going on infrasructure, that's for sure. When it comes to hospital beds and hospital equipment (CT scans etc) per capita we're close to the median. The one area where we consistently massively over-spend in our health budget is staffing costs. And having unions with the power to negotiate these sort of pay deals for HSE employees (in addition to excellent job security) is the exact opposite to what you'd expect if our healthcare was being overseen by a very right wing government. STaffing costs aside, the HSE is phenomenally inefficient when it comes to setting targets, tracking outcomes, taking responsibility for quality and generally making sure it gives the government the best bang for it buck. Again, the opposite to what you'd expect in the healthcare service of a right wing government. But exactly what you'd expect in the jobs for the boys cronyism mentality that seems to be the way Ireland works across the board.

Housing is a whole other can of worms. Which I know much less about. So I'll leave that to the better informed amongst ye.

Is one of the issues with staff payments not related to outside agencies? With 250 million to be cut there? Spending 250 million on outside agencies is most certainly not a left-wing policy at all.

I think blaming the failing health system on the left-wing failings of a series of predominantly fiscally right-wing governments is quite a stretch.


edit - https://www2.staffingindustry.com/ eng/Editorial/Daily-News/Irish-health-services-to-cut-250-million-spending-on-outside-agency-staff-Irish-Times-68350#:~:text=A report by the Parliamentary,period to €619 million.

That's exactly what you'd expect from a fiscally right-wing government that would rather have a more privatised health system.


edit 2 "The average nurse salary in Ireland is € 46 135 per year or € 23.66 per hour. Entry-level positions start at € 39 227 per year, while most experienced workers make up to € 64 745 per year. "

That's not that much if you consider the arduous work, and that most hospitals are in urban areas and the cost of living there?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Is one of the issues with staff payments not related to outside agencies? With 250 million to be cut there? Spending 250 million on outside agencies is most certainly not a left-wing policy at all.

I think blaming the failing health system on the left-wing failings of a series of predominantly fiscally right-wing governments is quite a stretch.

We’ve always spend loads on agency cover in the health service. Because public sector employees have always had fairly generous allowances in terms of annual leave, maternity leave and sick leave (more un-right wing employer behaviour!) and we have to keep the show on the road somehow. This is all compounded by the lack of accountability from the absolute fecking army of middle management drones employed by the HSE who are supposed to make sure that our money is spent wisely (hint: they don’t)

Anyway, I’m mainly trying to understand why everyone is so convinced our government is right wing? When their policies tend to indicate the opposite. What do you mean by “fiscally right-wing”?

 

[Massive Spanner]

Is there another country on earth where you get less bang for buck on your taxes? We spend near the top on basically everything yet somehow manage to do absolutely terribly on them. Health, infrastructure, housing etc. I guess we have a good education system overall and solid social welfare benefits? Yay?

 

[moses]

We’ve always spend loads on agency cover in the health service. Because public sector employees have always had fairly generous allowances in terms of annual leave, maternity leave and sick leave (more un-right wing employer behaviour!) and we have to keep the show on the road somehow.

Anyway, I’m mainly trying to understand why everyone is so convinced our government is right wing? When their policies tend to indicate the opposite. What do you mean by “fiscally right-wing”?

Time off is not a lefty issue, it's a basic right ffs! We don't live in the 1890s.

Our government is centre right, but with classic neoliberal fiscal policies. Broadly this. " Fiscal conservatives advocate tax cuts, reduced government spending, free markets, deregulation, privatization, free trade, and minimal government debt. Fiscal conservatism follows the same philosophical outlook as classical liberalism. This concept is derived from economic liberalism. "

We should start another thread. This is about the rise of neo-fascists!

 

[Withnail]

We’ve always spend loads on agency cover in the health service. Because public sector employees have always had fairly generous allowances in terms of annual leave, maternity leave and sick leave (more un-right wing employer behaviour!) and we have to keep the show on the road somehow.

Anyway, I’m mainly trying to understand why everyone is so convinced our government is right wing? When their policies tend to indicate the opposite. What do you mean by “fiscally right-wing”?

FF and FG have always been considered centre right. Just because the rest of the world shifted seemingly en mass further right, it doesn't mean either of our main parties are left wing.

But you have to already know this so I'm confused by your question.

 

[moses]

Is there another country on earth where you get less bang for buck on your taxes? We spend near the top on basically everything yet somehow manage to do absolutely terribly on them. Health, infrastructure, housing etc. I guess we have a good education system overall and solid social welfare benefits? Yay?

I'm quite proud of our social welfare and if you think of it as UBI then it's money well spent. That and then majority of it goes into local businesses and not to the Cayman Islands.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I'm quite proud of our social welfare and if you think of it as UBI then it's money well spent. That and then majority of it goes into local businesses and not to the Cayman Islands.

Yeah we have a great social welfare system overall, no doubt, much better than the UK. Part of the reason there are so many tents currently being cleared on Mount St I guess.

but other than that, feck I dunno, it’s depressing to see how my taxes are spent. And I’d happily pay a lot more taxes like the Nordics do if we got the same sort of return they did.

they’ve somehow managed to triple the healthcare budget since 2011 whilst making it perform worse. It’s actually impressive.

 

[moses]

FF and FG have always been considered centre right. Just because the rest of the world shifted seemingly en mass further right, it doesn't mean either of our main parties are left wing.

But you have to already know this so I'm confused by your question.

We have too. With state ownership of power, postage, and communications in the 80s we were basically communists.

 

[moses]

Yeah we have a great social welfare system overall, no doubt, much better than the UK. Part of the reason there are so many tents currently being cleared on Mount St I guess.

but other than that, feck I dunno, it’s depressing to see how my taxes are spent. And I’d happily pay a lot more taxes like the Nordics do if we got the same sort of return they did.

they’ve somehow managed to triple the healthcare budget since 2011 whilst making it perform worse. It’s actually impressive.

100%

 

[moses]

Anyway, back on track, there will be trouble in Dromahair tonight by the looks of things.

 

[Withnail]

Yeah we have a great social welfare system overall, no doubt, much better than the UK. Part of the reason there are so many tents currently being cleared on Mount St I guess.

but other than that, feck I dunno, it’s depressing to see how my taxes are spent. And I’d happily pay a lot more taxes like the Nordics do if we got the same sort of return they did.

they’ve somehow managed to triple the healthcare budget since 2011 whilst making it perform worse. It’s actually impressive.

A mate of mine lives up that way and was telling me about it. I hadn't realised there were so many. What are the doing with all the lads that were in the tents? They're not dumping them in the mountains again, are they?

 

[moses]

Yeah, we’re going miles off topic so I’ll leave it here but I do find it strange that you think the stuff in bold applies to any recent Irish government. In terms of taxation we target the highest earners more aggressively than almost any other country in Europe, with relatively low tax for low earners Link. Plus, as I said, we spend miles more than the average on our health service (and public sector in general) taking on huge amounts of debt when we have to (e.g. banking crisis, covid) So I really don’t get this notion that we’ve had a particularly right wing government in terms of fiscal policy, or anything else (getting back on topic, our approach to immigration is another barn door example of us not having a particularly right wing government). It seems to me that all of our parties skew left, compared to most other countries. Which is rarely acknowledged with all the moaning about FF/FG.

Compared to others not that right wing. Compared to any point in the past after WW2, yes.

I also said "broadly" and got the first definition googled and half do apply. It's not for this thread.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah we have a great social welfare system overall, no doubt, much better than the UK. Part of the reason there are so many tents currently being cleared on Mount St I guess.

but other than that, feck I dunno, it’s depressing to see how my taxes are spent. And I’d happily pay a lot more taxes like the Nordics do if we got the same sort of return they did.

they’ve somehow managed to triple the healthcare budget since 2011 whilst making it perform worse. It’s actually impressive.

We just need to find a massive oil reserve under the Irish Sea and job’s a good ‘un.

 

[Massive Spanner]

We just need to find a massive oil reserve under the Irish Sea and job’s a good ‘un.

That’s just Norway though innit?

and we are absolutely raking money in, that’s not the problem, it’s how inefficiently it’s spent.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

That’s just Norway though innit?

and we are absolutely raking money in, that’s not the problem, it’s how inefficiently it’s spent.

Yeah, we’re terrible with money. Always have been. It’s almost a cultural thing. Easy come, easy go. We’re as bad at it, individually, as we are as a nation. It’s the lack of accountability that boils my piss. Fat cats running quangos and doing feck all useful to make sure that all the tax screwed out of us is spent wisely.

 

[moses]

That’s just Norway though innit?

and we are absolutely raking money in, that’s not the problem, it’s how inefficiently it’s spent.

We have a higher GDP than Norway. Lefty tendencies haven't seemed to hamper them much.

https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/ireland/norway

 

[Massive Spanner]

We have a higher GDP than Norway. Lefty tendencies haven't seemed to hamper them much.

https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/ireland/norway

Our GDP is meaningless though. Completely distorted by companies like Apple funnelling profits through here. Our median wage is a fair bit lower than Norway. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-income-by-country

 

[Pogue Mahone]

We have a higher GDP than Norway. Lefty tendencies haven't seemed to hamper them much.

https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/ireland/norway

Our GDP is not the most reliable as a lot of that is corporation tax we’re not entirely sure we’ll be able to hold onto.

I note that we have much more government debt and spend a higher % of our budget on health and lower % on defence than those notoriously right wing Noggies. Which is interesting.

 

[moses]

Our GDP is meaningless though. Completely distorted by companies like Apple funnelling profits through here. Our median wage is a fair bit lower than Norway. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-income-by-country

Is it really meaningless when discussing the money the government has access to tax?

I'm going to thread-ban all of us if we don't stop this tangent.

 

[moses]

I got asked to got to Dromahair and oppose the racists. Knowing a few of them that will be there I wouldn't go without a small army. "Call me back when you have tanks pal."

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Is it really meaningless when discussing the money the government has access to tax?

I'm going to thread-ban all of us if we don't stop this tangent.

I think we can all agree that basically everyone in the Dail is to the left of the wankers who are bullying young lads trying to build a beer garden.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I got asked to got to Dromahair and oppose the racists. Knowing a few of them that will be there I wouldn't go without a small army. "Call me back when you have tanks pal."

You mentioned “sinister hippy types”. They sound fairly non threatening? Or do they have edgier, more dangerous pals?

 

[moses]

 

[moses]

You mentioned “sinister hippy types”. They sound fairly non threatening? Or do they have edgier, more dangerous pals?

Yes, the chap above.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yes, the chap above.

Who is he? Doesn’t seem nearly as wound up as the beanie hatted shit-head in that other video.

 

[moses]

I think we can all agree that basically everyone in the Dail is to the left of the wankers who are bullying young lads trying to build a beer garden.

I don't think they are right-wing, just angry ignorant misguided, and ultimately racist fecks.

The main role the activist far right plays in European politics is to split the working class vote. These people could easily vote for Sinn Fein, the motifs are all the same.

You only need a small cohort of ideologues to get a proper ideologically right-wing party elected,

But yes, the greasy fecks in the Dail are not ideologically nasty in the way the leaders of the IFP and The National Party are. or even close.

 

[moses]

Who is he? Doesn’t seem nearly as wound up as the beanie hatted shit-head in that other video.

Same dude. Well, he got a lot of that out of his system by thrashing a house with a crowbar and getting arrested. That's the bail he's smugly referring to. He's also on bail for dislocating a bloke's jaw in his local,

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Same dude. Well, he got a lot of that out of his system by thrashing a house with a crowbar and getting arrested. That's the bail he's smugly referring to. He's also on bail for dislocating a bloke's jaw in his local,

Surely not? Beanie hat man has a Dublin accent, this lad is pure culchie.

 

[Shane88]

Surely not? Beanie hat man has a Dublin accent, this lad is pure culchie.

He adopts the Dublin accent to appear more threatening and violent, naturally.

The soft culchie accent is to win hearts and minds.

 

[moses]

Surely not? Beanie hat man has a Dublin accent, this lad is pure culchie.

Sorry, no. He's the lad firm the Twitter link on the previous page, also in a beanie.

But the beanie fellah shouting at the workers had a wexford twang no?

 

[Withnail]

Sorry, no. He's the lad firm the Twitter link on the previous page, also in a beanie.

But the beanie fellah shouting at the workers had a wexford twang no?

Something like that yeah. He's definitely not a Dub.

 

[unchanged_lineup]

 

[Withnail]

That's a piss-take.

Slap a compulsory purchase order on the lot of them and give them 6 months grace.

 

[moses]

That's a piss-take.

Slap a compulsory purchase order on the lot of them and give them 6 months grace.

Yep. Derelict buildings is not always sign of poverty. I couldn't afford to have a building boarded up.

 

[moses]

Anyway, they do have a song now so they do.

https://x.com/NiallMcConnell5/status/1785237225690513500?t=IZ8tMzNstK8d2Bw4O2Stow&s=08

Can this be real. It's to the tune of a communist anthem by Christy.