The Road Trip Draft Grand Finale: Indnyc vs Skizzo/Pat_Mustard

Who will win the match based on all the players at their peaks?


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Enigma_87

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---------------------------------------Indnyc-----------------------------------------------------------------Skizzo/Pat_Mustard

Indnyc Tactics and Formation:

Formation: 4-3-3/4-5-1

Tactics
: Attack, Attack, Attack!!! Play the United way with fast paced wingers and stretch the pitch

Attack

The Holy Trinity and Giggs are up there with the best attacks of all time. No matter the defense, we can expect them to create chances and score. I thought about adding Henry there but stuck with Giggs because he provides genuine width which is very important for the style of football we are playing.

Midfield

Keane and Edwards form a fantastic double pivot in the defensive phase of the game. Additionally, Charlton will drop in deep and is expected to play a significant role in the midfield battle. Charlton would also "defend from the front" in stopping Beckenbauer from dictating too much from the back.

I don't want Charlton to man mark Beckenbauer but he is tasked with limiting Beckenbauers influence

Defence :

Maldini, McGrath and Fillol form a strong core. Santos and Cafu are two of the greatest of all times and will help in stretching the pitch and be a strong presence in the defensive phase of the game.

The presence of Cafu allows Best to play a more free role and roam around the final 3rd

Sir Stanley Matthews and Rivaldo are significant wide threats and arguably the up there with the greatest of all time. The only way to slow them are having players like Maldini and Cafu who can match them for pace and trickery.

The biggest strength for the opposition is Gerd Muller for whom i need two intelligent and tough defenders. Maldini and McGrath will be a strong presence here.

Specific Strategy for the Match

  • Double team the flanks whenever possible - With Giggs/Charlton/Santos on the left side against either Andrade or Amoros and whatever support Sir Stanley will provide, our team will look to create spaces on that side. Similarly, Best and Cafu against Carlos or Amoros is going to be a good opportunity for us to create space especially as Rivaldo isn't known for his defensive skills

  • Play high energy football typical of the English game and give the opposition very little time on the ball. Keane, Edwards and McGrath will look to release the ball quickly and will look for long passes bypassing the midfield to Giggs and Best and try isolating the opposition fullbacks
Why we will win

1) Great attack - Best, Charlton, Law, Giggs is a breath taking front 4 who will score against the best of defenses.

2) Better fullbacks to deal with the opposition wide threats of Sir Stanley and Rivaldo. Santos and Cafu are the greatest of all time in their positions. Defensively strong and can support an attack. Don't think it can get better than Cafu - Best flank

3) Hard working team with similar playing styles - I genuinely wanted to play Henry over Giggs but while Henry adds the Goal Scoring i lose a bit on the hard working nature of Giggs. My entire team is filled with players who will work hard across the pitch and have a similar playing style.

Skizzo/Pat_Mustard Tactics and Formation:

Formation: 4-3-3

We line up in a 4-3-3 formation featuring our new(ish) recruits, Dutch colossus Jaap Stam and evergreen dribbling legend Stanley Matthews. Franz Beckenbauer remains our star turn. Playing in a familiar setup and reunited with his greatest partner in crime Gerd Muller, we hope Beckenbauer will prove to be the decisive influence in this match.

Defence:

One of the very greatest goalkeepers ever in Peter Schmeichel is our last line of defence. Ahead of him, Beckenbauer marshals the defence, and the team as a whole, from his favoured RCB/libero position. Beckenbauer was simply the master of providing the ‘plus one’ in every area of the pitch as he strode forward, whilst maintaining a near sixth-sense in terms of fulfilling his defensive responsibilities. Jaap Stam slots in for Desailly as Der Kaiser's CB partner. Fast and supremely strong, Stam would figure highly in a list of ideal Beckenbauer foils, and he'll be invaluable in defending against Gullit's aerial threat. Flanking Beckenbauer at right back is one of the great defensive FBs in Victor Andrade. For anyone hoping to get a handle on Andrade Jr, this match vs Hungary is required viewing. He looks a player ahead of his time, both an athletic phenom and a wonderfully composed footballer. Tellingly, that superb Hungary team only edged past Andrade’s Uruguay after Andrade went off injured and the shackles were finally released from the great Zoltan Czibor. This is a familiar defensive structure for Beckenbauer, who once again finds himself flanked on the right by a defensive full back and partnered in central defence by an athletically-privileged and resolute stopper, with a buccaneering left back completing the defence. In this latter role Roberto Carlos provides a dynamic two-way flank presence, and he'll reprise his successful link-up for Brazil with Rivaldo and free up his countryman to wreak havoc in the inside channels.

Central Midfield:

The addition of Stam finally allows us to restore Marcel Desailly to his peak position. As great a CB as he was, he spent most of his monstrous peak at DM and is arguably the greatest ball-winner and pure defensive shield of all-time in that position. Partnering him is box to box hurricane Johan Neeskens. It’s the Beckenbauer/Neeskens link up that excites us most about our team, with their shared ability to defend to all-time great levels, before transitioning with dizzying technical ability and dynamism. After missing out on him during the initial drafting, we've finally landed Michael Laudrup, and with him the top-notch creativity and playmaking presence that we wanted to knit together our offence.

Attack:

The greatest big-match goalscorer of all-time spearheads our attack, and Muller will relish reuniting with his general Beckenbauer. He scarcely needed more than a half-chance to decide a match, but serviced by Rivaldo, Laudrup and Matthews he looks good value to score at least once. Rivaldo is restored to our lineup as a left-sided forward. He'll be in his element here playing off Muller, with Roberto Carlos providing the width in the outside left channel, and adds considerable reserves of flair, big match steel and goalscoring presence to the attack here. On the right wing, Stanley Matthews provides first-rate orthodox wing play. Capable of leaving Nilton Santos with twisted blood when he was 41 years old, we're interested to see whether Indy risks reprising that duel by fielding Nilton here, or whether he'll be forced to weaken his central defence by moving Maldini out to face Matthews.
 

Don Alfredo

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McGrath is a bit underwhelming in an All-time final, he already was underwhelming in the QF (compared to the rest of the team).

I can see this playing out like many finals in the past, the more physical side based on teamwork and self-sacrifice will come out on top against the side which plays the best football in the tournament.

I'll still wait to see how the discussion unfolds.
 

Indnyc

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Both sides did not make any changes?
Yeah.. It's the same team from the semi finals.. Very few places either of us could upgrade without breaking the theme of the teams
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.

Indnyc

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McGrath is a bit underwhelming in an All-time final, he already was underwhelming in the QF (compared to the rest of the team).

I can see this playing out like many finals in the past, the more physical side based on teamwork and self-sacrifice will come out on top against the side which plays the best football in the tournament.

I'll still wait to see how the discussion unfolds.
Fair point on McGrath but i was never going to change him.. Maybe it's stubbornness but to me injuries aside, McGrath is one of Uniteds best defenders of all time.. He held his own against some of the best attackers while playing for significantly weaker teams.. I needed someone who could be physical and not afraid to put his body on the line.. I would say in that sense, he is a perfect fit
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Expected Andrade to start on the left (played there in the 1950 WC I think) and Amoros on the right.

Best vs Carlos does look like the best route to goal.
 

Indnyc

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In this latter role Roberto Carlos provides a dynamic two-way flank presence, and he'll reprise his successful link-up for Brazil with Rivaldo and free up his countryman
to wreak havoc in the inside channels.
Rivaldo and Carlos are a treat on that side.. Not sure Rivaldo playing for Milan has had much success against Cafu's Roma.

3 matches; no goals/assists in the early 2000's.. Don't think i could have a better defense against Rivaldo/Carlos to be honest
 

Indnyc

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Expected Andrade to start on the left (played there in the 1950 WC I think) and Amoros on the right.

Best vs Carlos does look like the best route to goal.
Was expecting Amoros on the left and Andrade on the right if anything.. Andrade is the stable defensive minded right back.. Amoros is far too attacking
 

Don Alfredo

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Fair point on McGrath but i was never going to change him.. Maybe it's stubbornness but to me injuries aside, McGrath is one of Uniteds best defenders of all time.. He held his own against some of the best attackers while playing for significantly weaker teams.. I needed someone who could be physical and not afraid to put his body on the line.. I would say in that sense, he is a perfect fit
I don't like the Maldini-McGrath pairing that much to be honest. I know for some people Maldini is perfect in everything he does, but I still think having a pairing like Maldini-Scirea looks more natural, especially with the extremely physical Edwards-Keane double pivot in front of them.

Tbh I rate Stam on the same level as McGrath and he is also one I don't like that much in this final, but Stam-Beckenbauer is a fantastic remake of Schwarzenbeck-Beckenbauer and very easy on the eye.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Carlos vs Best will decide this match. Carlos/Rivaldo, but Cafu/Best takes the cake.

I don't like the Maldini-McGrath pairing that much to be honest.
Why not? It is similar to Maldini/Nesta. With Edwards/Keane, the need for playmaking is not really that important to require a sweeper. And McGrath has sufficient ball skills to make transitions smoother.
 

Indnyc

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I don't like the Maldini-McGrath pairing that much to be honest. I know for some people Maldini is perfect in everything he does, but I still think having a pairing like Maldini-Scirea looks more natural, especially with the extremely physical Edwards-Keane double pivot in front of them.

Tbh I rate Stam on the same level as McGrath and he is also one I don't like that much in this final, but Stam-Beckenbauer is a fantastic remake of Schwarzenbeck-Beckenbauer and very easy on the eye.
If only i could pick another Italian :(

Is Maldini - McGrath the perfect sweeper/stopper combination? No.. But i don't really need a playmaking sweeper type defender.. McGrath is good enough on the
ball to pass to the channels or find Keane/Edwards to move the ball along

Credit to @harms and @Joga Bonito for the videos

 

Don Alfredo

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Why not? It is similar to Maldini/Nesta. With Edwards/Keane, the need for playmaking is not really that important to require a sweeper. And McGrath has sufficient ball skills to make transitions smoother.
I thought I had explained it with the reference to Scirea.

If you put Nesta in comparison to Baresi, their defensive skills are not far apart. Yet I like Maldini-Baresi much more than Maldini-Nesta.

I get your reference to the ball playing skills of Keane-Edwards and I like both their abilities on the ball as well. They are clearly no weakness:lol: But that side could play some better football with a masterful passer like Laudrup, Xavi, Scholes etc. I don't see this outrageous passing ability, which could have helped the side. Again not a weakness, just that it could have been a bit better in the composition and why I think McGrath is not a "great" fit to maximize the potential of the teammates, albeit not a bad one either.
 

harms

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Credit to @harms and @Joga Bonito for the videos
All credit goes to Joga on this one :)

I wanted to see Amoros on the right, I rate him very highly on the defensive side as well. Add my pro-footage bias to that as well. On the first glance Müller is well-positioned to score at least a goal; but if we're rating McGrath as a relatively underwhelming center back for a final, than the same can be said about Stam, don't think that there's much between them at their best. Although it's not like any of them is a glaring weakness.
 

Indnyc

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----------Henry--Law-----
----Charlton---------Best-
--------Edwards-Keane----
-Santos-Maldini-McGrath-Cafu

Like it more than the current setup tbf.
This was my original thought with Henry but my reasoning with the current set up

a) The opposition is very strong centrally and their biggest weakness (if any) is on the wings

b) Giggs gives me support against Sir Stanley leaving Charlton to deal with Beckenbauer.. In the set up you posted i feel it would leave me vulnerable with a lack of bodies to fall back
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Expected Andrade to start on the left (played there in the 1950 WC I think) and Amoros on the right.

Best vs Carlos does look like the best route to goal.
We did strongly consider playing a defensive LB against Best, and we have Marzolini on the bench as well, but decided it was too big a price to pay offensively. Roberto Carlos/Laudrup/Rivaldo is such a nice axis going forward down our left wing,and removing the most consistent presence down the outside left channel just didn't sit right for us.
 

harms

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Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Rivaldo and Carlos are a treat on that side.. Not sure Rivaldo playing for Milan has had much success against Cafu's Roma.

3 matches; no goals/assists in the early 2000's.. Don't think i could have a better defense against Rivaldo/Carlos to be honest
In fairness to Rivaldo he declined remarkably quickly following the 2002 World Cup, and had a pretty miserable time at Milan in general, so that isn't really representative of his peak period. There's no denying the quality of that Cafu/Best wing of yours though.

On the topic of Rivaldo versus your players, he'll doubtless cross paths with Keane here at times given their respective zones, and he did turn in a fantastic performance against Utd's soon to be Treble winners in one of those epic CL group games that season:

 

Indnyc

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In fairness to Rivaldo he declined remarkably quickly following the 2002 World Cup, and had a pretty miserable time at Milan in general, so that isn't really representative of his peak period. There's no denying the quality of that Cafu/Best wing of yours though.

On the topic of Rivaldo versus your players, he'll doubtless cross paths with Keane here at times given their respective zones, and he did turn in a fantastic performance against Utd's soon to be Treble winners in one of those epic CL group games that season:

My mistake.. Pre World Cup playing for Barcelona..

I would be the first to say Rivaldo/ Carlos is a brilliant flank.. But if I could choose anybody to defend against them, Cafu would probably be up there on the list
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
My mistake.. Pre World Cup playing for Barcelona..

I would be the first to say Rivaldo/ Carlos is a brilliant flank.. But if I could choose anybody to defend against them, Cafu would probably be up there on the list
Ah, fair enough, although it was only two matches they played against each other I think. Agreed on Cafu of course. There's not many you'd choose for any given RB assignment ahead of him.
 

Indnyc

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Ah, fair enough, although it was only two matches they played against each other I think. Agreed on Cafu of course. There's not many you'd choose for any given RB assignment ahead of him.
Yeah it’s not a great sample size unfortunately.. Would definitely be a fascinating battle
 

Indnyc

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Why? Can't think of a more complementary duo that chalrton and Henry for that striker/left wing position, young Charlton used to play at lw.

Keane and Edward both are box to box and the former spent his whole career in a 4-4-2.
A 4-4-2 against a 4-3-3 with Beckenbauer is asking for trouble imo..

They could overload the midfield and we would lose the ability to stretch the pitch as much
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Why? Can't think of a more complementary duo that chalrton and Henry for that striker/left wing position, young Charlton used to play at lw.

Keane and Edward both are box to box and the former spent his whole career in a 4-4-2.
Not in that formation. Charlton peak was #10 or left IF. As a pure winger, he's far from peak.

...Henry....Law...Best..
............Charlton...........
....Edwards.....Keane.....

Might work better but that's still a level worse than his current.

I'd rather he moved to Spain and picked Gento, he'd have the best wing duo. Or even Amancio and shift Best to left. Gento+Trinity :drool:

Gento-Best would literally be the second best flank of all time only behind Best-Garrincha imo.

Henry was such a wasted pick.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
As expected, and reasonably enough, there's been a lot of focus on Best vs Roberto Carlos. There's been little to no comment on Stanley Matthews vs Nilton Santos however. Now they only faced each other once, which isn't a great sample size by any means, but given that Matthews was already 41 years old and Nilton was in his prime at 30, this has to be one of the most remarkable great winger/great full back maulings ever.



And a briliant article on it from the Independent:

We can, enjoyably, argue about almost anything in football – players, coaches, referees, goals, results. It is what gives the game its universality. A handful of generalisations are commonly agreed: among them, that for half a century Brazil have been probably the most consistently watchable of national teams and, prior to that, Stanley Matthews was the world's best-known player.

These two strands of history are echoed at Wembley on Wednesday when, celebrating the 150th anniversary of the FA's foundation, England play Brazil. Their first encounter was in 1956, the occasion distinguished by Matthews, provocatively aged 41, having a creative hand in all England goals in a 4-2 victory.

If down the years Brazil – and players such as Ademir, Didi, Pele, Garrincha, Jairzinho, Socrates, Falcao, Romario, Bebeto, Juninho, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Kaka – have captivated audiences across the globe, so too for 33 years did Matthews.

In my youth, before TV, when legends were established merely by the written word or passed by word of mouth, there was a story, probably apocryphal, of a crowd gathering in St Peter's Square in the late 30s to see a visiting England team appearing in company with the Pope. An English spectator asks an Italian which one on the balcony is the Pope? "Not sure" was the reply, "but the one on the right is Stanley Matthews."


This week's friendly coincides with the 55th anniversary of Matthews having become the first recipient of the Ballon D'or award, just won for the fourth time running by Lionel Messi. The Argentinian's mesmeric brilliance is catalysed by performing with cup-dominant club and national teams. Such widely visible promotion among voters was nonexistent in the three phases of Matthews's fame, pre-war, wartime and postwar.

A career stretching from 1932 to 1965 – interrupted in its prime with Stoke, Blackpool and back at Stoke – only concluded when he was 50 and still leaving accomplished defenders gasping dumbly in the wake of his pace. Like Messi – or Pele, Alfredo Di Stefano or Diego Maradona – he could take the ball within inches of the opponent's toes: then, with a shimmy, leave them for dead. "It was like playing against a ghost," recalled Johnny Carey, a celebrated Eire fullback and the captain of Matt Busby's first great Manchester United team.

On that May afternoon in 1956, England's prospects were uncertain. Would the emerging Latin Americans – defeated World Cup finalists of 1950 by Uruguay, England having dissolved against USA – inflict a second home defeat on the founding fathers, following that by Hungary two and a half years earlier? Attacking extravagance was already Brazil's hallmark: now their fulcrum was Didi (Waldir Pereira), a mercurial link-man from Fluminense of Rio, who would mastermind their World Cup victories at Sweden '58 and Chile '62. Visiting Wembley was the last leg of a preparatory European tour.

"A few days earlier he'd lost to Italy," recalled Didi – nowadays frail in retirement – "and we wanted to put on a show." Part of that show, it was supposed, would be Nilton Santos, captain and one of the most formidable left-backs. He was to be a key figure in the 1958 final, subduing Sweden's tenacious winger Kurt Hamrin. How would the veteran Matthews fare?

Never mind having shared in the 1953 humiliation by Hungary, Matthews's remarkable career was conspicuous for intermittent highlights: the pre-war 6-3 slaughter of Germany in Berlin – "Matthews risks everything, can do everything" wrote Berlin's Fussball; his dribble past five Belgian defenders for a goal, during a 5-2 drubbing, which both teams paused to applaud; the imperishable last 20 minutes of Blackpool's 1953 Cup victory against Bolton.

So magnetic was his appeal, he was, unbelievably, adored by the Scots. The Hampden Park record of 137,000 was established with his presence, likewise that at Manchester City's Maine Road (80,000). Earning £1 per week as groundstaff boy when he made his Stoke reserves debut in 1932, he would today have put David Beckham in the financial shade. His name on the team-sheet add ed 10,000 to many First Division attendances. Returning aged 45 in 1960 to Stoke, struggling at the foot of the old Second Division, the attendance for his first match against Huddersfield leapt from 7,000 to 35,000.


Repeatedly selected/dropped by an amateurish, pre-Ramsey FA committee – only 37 appearances during England's first 87 post-war matches and partnered by 17 different inside forwards – Matthews returned by public demand against Brazil, alongside the debut of young Duncan Edwards. Also included were Manchester United's ill-fated Tommy Taylor and Roger Byrne.

Public faith in Matthews was as enduring as his own fitness. In successive seasons, 1954 and 1955, he had destroyed at Wembley two outstanding fullbacks: Werner Kohlmeyer, of West Germany, recent World Cup winners, and, in a 7-2 rout, Scotland's experienced Harry Haddock. To such a degree was Kohlmeyer bamboozled that the 100,000 crowd regularly laughed out loud: he never played again. "Once he had gone past you," Haddock recalled "there and then not there, it was as though he'd forgotten about you. It was a devastating yet treasured personal experience."

It was to be an experience for Nilton Santos (nutmegged above left). Though Brazil exhibited their flamboyance, Matthews shredded his opponent's reputation: enticing him to within kneecap range like a matador, leaving him in a heap, having lunged off-balance for a vanished ball.

The maestro's touch led to each of England's goals, Brazil having drawn level soon after half-time after going two down early in the game. As Didi reflected: "The play of Matthews was an exhibition of his genius – an extraordinary player in the same class as Garrincha. I never thought a player that age could do what he did."


Would Matthews have excelled in today's super-fit, defensive era? I think so. The game was then physically harder, but his supreme ball control would have had contemporary players floundering.

The esteemed chronicler Arthur Hopcraft observed: "He compelled attention, which was very often his principal value when he was playing for England. It did not matter, least of all to Matthews, which of his side puts the ball in the net... When he moved with the ball, shuffling, leaning, edging ever closer to the defender, he was always the man teetering to the very brink of disaster, and we waited breathlessly to see whether this time he would fail or whether yet again he would come swaying back at the last possible moment to run on clear and free... The sadly impassive face, pale lips and hooded eyes, had a lot of pain in it, the deep hurt that came from prolonged effort and the certainty of more blows. It was a workers' face, like a miner's, never really young, tight against the brutal world even in repose... He was representative of his age and his class, brought up among thrift and the ever-looming threat of dole and debt."

The inscription on the statue in Matthews's boyhood town of Hanley reads: "His name is symbolic of the beauty of the game, his fame timeless and international, his sportsmanship and modesty universally acclaimed. A magical player, of the people, for the people."
For me it's harsh to view Best vs Roberto Carlos as a pivotal whitewash in this match while ignoring that a past his prime Matthews proved impossible for Nitlon to contain.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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As expected, and reasonably enough, there's been a lot of focus on Best vs Roberto Carlos. There's been little to no comment on Stanley Matthews vs Nilton Santos however. Now they only faced each other once, which isn't a great sample size by any means, but given that Matthews was already 41 years old and Nilton was in his prime at 30, this has to be one of the most remarkable great winger/great full back maulings ever.



And a briliant article on it from the Independent:



For me it's harsh to view Best vs Roberto Carlos as a pivotal whitewash in this match while ignoring that a past his prime Matthews proved impossible for Nitlon to contain.
Damn you Pat, you're making me regret my vote.

I don't want to vote for you. Stop making these posts. :D
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Damn you Pat, you're making me regret my vote.

I don't want to vote for you. Stop making these posts. :D
Oh there's plenty more where that came from mate :D.

A 'here's one I made earlier' compilation of Matthew's famous performance in the 1953 FA Cup Final:


Maybe I'll manage to hit double figures for video views if I keep spamming it :lol:. The majority of the match was good but fairly routine for a player of Matthews' calibre, but he just took over completely in the final 25 minutes, turning a 3-1 deficit into a 4-3 win for Blackpool by shredding the opposition defence virtually at will.

More on this later no doubt, but as I've been watching plenty of random Bayern footage from the 70s for obvious reasons here's a nice obscure demonstration of the Muller/Beckenbauer connection, who with all due respect to the Trinity and Keane/Giggs are still the best proven partnership on the pitch IMO. Beckenbauer produces a brilliant assist for Muller for the first goal, then nearly repeats the trick just after for Bayern to win the penalty. Muller himself scores 4 goals and still finds time to fluff the penalty: