The Road Trip Draft Grand Finale: Indnyc vs Skizzo/Pat_Mustard

[Indnyc]

Some videos of Best, Law and Charlton as I might drift off to sleep



[/QUOTE]

 

[Indnyc]

Charlton vs. West Germany in the final. Such a complete midfielder and offered a lot in defense as well as attack

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Removed UTD bias for this and I just love pat and skizzos team. I think laudrup is likely to give keane nightmares here, far too intelligent a footballer and can mix it up enough to frustrate keane. Could see an early booking and keane on thin ice the rest of the game.

It’s very difficult to separate the wings. Rivaldo and Giggs at their absolute peak were completely unplayable I just think I’d rather be assisting Müller than Law from the left side. It doesn’t matter who best or Matthews assist because it’s all about their individual genius, and it’s tough to separate here.

I don’t see Cafu working well with best simply because best doesn’t need a player like Cafu to do his thing. Really hard to imagine them playing one twos with each other.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Now to do the unthinkable, maybe even the blasphemous, and try to place the sexiness and emotional resonance of the Law/Best/Charlton Trinity in some sort of context. Long and probably controversial post incoming.

Firstly, all three are top notch footballers in any conceivable pool of players. Secondly, they're an excellent proven partnership, and one that virtually anyone who has ever participated in drafts has fantasized about putting together. What we do question is whether their aura as one of the very greatest collaborations in footballing history is entirely justified.

Success and Longevity:

Best, Law and and Charlton played 10 seasons together at Utd, and won the following:

• Football League First Division: 1964–65, 1966–67
• Charity Shield: 1965, 1967
• European Cup: 1968

That's three major trophies. All three players were unquestionably pivotal to the two league titles, but Law, in an injury-plagued season, was peripheral to the European Cup triumph, appearing in only three matches (two of which were in the first round against Maltese minnows Hibernians). Age, injuries and in George's case addiction issues go a long way towards explaining why their purple patch as a trophy-winning machine was relatively brief, and without doubt it was still one of the most glorious eras in Utd's history. That said, there's plenty of tandems, not least our Beckenbauer/Muller duo, who were comparably key players in more prolific trophy-winning teams.

Synergy:

I don't think anyone in our sub-forum has seen anywhere remotely close to a majority of their matches together, so we're left to piece together the reality of how they performed week in, week out from limited footage and other sources. A (very long) excerpt from Joe Lovejoy's biography on Best on their sometimes uneasy on-pitch relationship:

This tendency towards go-it-alone greediness became a source of frustration to his teammates as Best made the metamorphosis from second fiddle to virtuoso. It was no coincidence, Denis Law maintains, that his own goals-per-game ration declined as his provider's improved. In 1966-7, Law rattled in 23 goals in 36 league appearances to Best's 10 in 42. Over the next two seasons, Law scored a modest 21 goals to Best's 47. Law says:

" In the early days, George was superb at getting the ball into the area for me. Later on, he got a bit greedy, and I was getting into position and the ball wasn't coming. We had a lot of arguments about it in the dressing room. It was a case of 'excuse me, but that ain't right'. Bestie's reputation was becoming very big, and he was trying to live p to it by beating an extra guy instead of crossing the ball, which was the winger's job. We had a a lot of barneys about it, on and off the field. He started scoring more goals than me because he wouldn't give me the ball. It's as easy as that."

When I told Bobby Charlton of the complaint there was sympathy for Law's case:

"There may be a little bit of jealousy there. For a few years Denis was like greased lightning, and the crowd loved him, then George took over. But I know what Denis means about George's greediness. He used to sell me dummies!...But George would never give it to me. Never. Off he'd go, and I'd think: Jesus, not again. So many times I'd say 'here I am George, use me', and off he'd go in another direction. There's a nice story that sums it up. We're playing a match against Nottingham Forest, who had a little full-back called Joe Wilson, and George gets the ball on the touchline. I say to myself: 'Go and support George, he's got the ball', but he's been so frustrating over the years, not passing to me, that I've often thought: One day I'm not buying it. To hell with you. Anyway, we're three goals up against Forest with two minutes to go and George gets the ball. This is my chance. My instincts say 'show for him' but my brain says 'No. You promised yourself this little luxury. Stand still.' But by now he gets so close to me that I can't keep it under control, and I start to yell, 'Give it to me you greedy little bugger,' only to end up saying 'What a fantastic goal George!'

Yeah, he was frustrating. We all used to argue in that forward line. We would be bollocking one another right, left and centre."

...Later there would be more sinister reasons why a pass to Charlton would always be Best's last option. In their declining years they fell out so badly that they were both well into middle age before mutual friends...could get them back on speaking terms, but in 1967 they were comrades in arms, if not exactly peas from the same pod.

A more general observation by Johnny Giles about that Utd team:

In 1965 we were pipped for the league by Utd on goal average,and beat them in the semi-finals of the FA Cup, when we weren't in the same class as players. That was when Utd were at their best. I think they were a great team for three seasons, between 1964 and 1967. they were already on their way down when they won the European Cup in 1968...They had great individual talent in Best,Law and Charlton, and a lot of good, unsung players in support, like Tony Dunne and Shay Brennan. But I had played with most of them and there was never the same spirit at United that we had at Leeds...There were a lot of divisions in the Manchester United camp...I think Denis got on with George very well, but George didn't get on with Bobby and Bobby didn't get on that well with Denis. When Leeds played Manchester United, there was a much greater sense of togetherness about our team, and from 1968 onwards we became a much better side than United

Factoring in their relatively short peak, relative lack of trophies, and their off-field and on-field frictions, I'd posit that Best/Law/Charlton were a brilliant trio who did add up to the sum of their lavishly gifted parts, albeit briefly and intermittently. I don't know, however, if they really hit the transcendent mark of the absolute top tier of proven partnerships like Xavi/Iniesta, Cruyff/Neeskens, Maldini/Baresi etc, and I don't think they're a better bet than our Beckenbauer/Muller duo to decide this match.

 

[Himannv]

Not sure I buy the criticism of the Trinity much. I think a big part of what made them tick was that even if one or two of them had an off day, the other would turn up and make a difference in the game. It wasn't just about them combining together but also how good they were individually as they're all Ballon D'Or winners in their own right.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Not sure I buy the criticism of the Trinity much. I think a big part of what made them tick was that even if one or two of them had an off day, the other would turn up and make a difference in the game. It wasn't just about them combining together but also how good they were individually as they're all Ballon D'Or winners in their own right.

They're brilliant individual players and an excellent proven partnership, and I hope people don't overlook that I said that multiple times. Relative to the alchemy that partnerships like Xavi/Iniesta, Platini/Boniek achieved, where the whole was even greater than the sum of the brilliant parts, I think there's evidence that they fall a little short. I mean, you've got it straight from the horse's mouth there from Law, who felt that his own output suffered as Best entered what are generally acknowledged to be his peak years. They didn't achieve the level of protracted success as a unit that other partnerships did either, not least our own Beckenbauer/Muller combination who won this lot together:

4 Bundesligas
4 German Cups
3 European Cups
1 European Cup Winners Cup

1 Euro Championshp
1 World Cup

My main point isn't to shit on the Trinity of all players, but to remind voters that there's an arguably even better combination facing them.

 

[MJJ]

Now to do the unthinkable, maybe even the blasphemous, and try to place the sexiness and emotional resonance of the Law/Best/Charlton Trinity in some sort of context. Long and probably controversial post incoming.

Firstly, all three are top notch footballers in any conceivable pool of players. Secondly, they're an excellent proven partnership, and one that virtually anyone who has ever participated in drafts has fantasized about putting together. What we do question is whether their aura as one of the very greatest collaborations in footballing history is entirely justified.

Success and Longevity:

Best, Law and and Charlton played 10 seasons together at Utd, and won the following:

• Football League First Division: 1964–65, 1966–67
• Charity Shield: 1965, 1967
• European Cup: 1968

That's three major trophies. All three players were unquestionably pivotal to the two league titles, but Law, in an injury-plagued season, was peripheral to the European Cup triumph, appearing in only three matches (two of which were in the first round against Maltese minnows Hibernians). Age, injuries and in George's case addiction issues go a long way towards explaining why their purple patch as a trophy-winning machine was relatively brief, and without doubt it was still one of the most glorious eras in Utd's history. That said, there's plenty of tandems, not least our Beckenbauer/Muller duo, who were comparably key players in more prolific trophy-winning teams.

Synergy:

I don't think anyone in our sub-forum has seen anywhere remotely close to a majority of their matches together, so we're left to piece together the reality of how they performed week in, week out from limited footage and other sources. A (very long) excerpt from Joe Lovejoy's biography on Best on their sometimes uneasy on-pitch relationship:



A more general observation by Johnny Giles about that Utd team:



Factoring in their relatively short peak, relative lack of trophies, and their off-field and on-field frictions, I'd posit that Best/Law/Charlton were a brilliant trio who did add up to the sum of their lavishly gifted parts, albeit briefly and intermittently. I don't know, however, if they really hit the transcendent mark of the absolute top tier of proven partnerships like Xavi/Iniesta, Cruyff/Neeskens, Maldini/Baresi etc, and I don't think they're a better bet than our Beckenbauer/Muller duo to decide this match.

Where was this post last match!

 

[Physiocrat]

Now to do the unthinkable, maybe even the blasphemous, and try to place the sexiness and emotional resonance of the Law/Best/Charlton Trinity in some sort of context. Long and probably controversial post incoming.

Firstly, all three are top notch footballers in any conceivable pool of players. Secondly, they're an excellent proven partnership, and one that virtually anyone who has ever participated in drafts has fantasized about putting together. What we do question is whether their aura as one of the very greatest collaborations in footballing history is entirely justified.

Success and Longevity:

Best, Law and and Charlton played 10 seasons together at Utd, and won the following:

• Football League First Division: 1964–65, 1966–67
• Charity Shield: 1965, 1967
• European Cup: 1968

That's three major trophies. All three players were unquestionably pivotal to the two league titles, but Law, in an injury-plagued season, was peripheral to the European Cup triumph, appearing in only three matches (two of which were in the first round against Maltese minnows Hibernians). Age, injuries and in George's case addiction issues go a long way towards explaining why their purple patch as a trophy-winning machine was relatively brief, and without doubt it was still one of the most glorious eras in Utd's history. That said, there's plenty of tandems, not least our Beckenbauer/Muller duo, who were comparably key players in more prolific trophy-winning teams.

Synergy:

I don't think anyone in our sub-forum has seen anywhere remotely close to a majority of their matches together, so we're left to piece together the reality of how they performed week in, week out from limited footage and other sources. A (very long) excerpt from Joe Lovejoy's biography on Best on their sometimes uneasy on-pitch relationship:



A more general observation by Johnny Giles about that Utd team:



Factoring in their relatively short peak, relative lack of trophies, and their off-field and on-field frictions, I'd posit that Best/Law/Charlton were a brilliant trio who did add up to the sum of their lavishly gifted parts, albeit briefly and intermittently. I don't know, however, if they really hit the transcendent mark of the absolute top tier of proven partnerships like Xavi/Iniesta, Cruyff/Neeskens, Maldini/Baresi etc, and I don't think they're a better bet than our Beckenbauer/Muller duo to decide this match.

Very interesting post. Will think about this

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Where was this post last match!

Not the sort of post you really want to find yourself writing on a Utd forum, but I do think there's some merit to the argument. Just to reiterate, I don't think any of the three are overrated individually in the slightest. On the contrary, Law in particular was bizarrely underrated around here for ages. It's just as a 'better than the sum of their parts' collective that I wonder whether they necessarily quite live up to their billing.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

We guessed that Indy would be seen as having the advantage on his right/our left wing, and there's no denying the outrageous quality of Cafu and Best. However, we'd argue that we have a greater advantage on the other wing, with Andrade looking a fine fit to limit Giggs, with Matthews having shown himself capable of tying Nilton in knots at the pensionable age of 41.

Both teams have tremendously strong spines but we feel we have the edge here too. There's little in it but I think most on here would prefer Schmeichel over Fillol. Midfield is extremely tough to call, with Indy sporting two supreme all-rounders in Edwards and Keane, and our lads being more specialised, with Desailly as the premier specialist DM and Neeskens as the best attacking B2B on the park. Indy edges it when comparing our respective playmakers, although there's little in it either way when it comes to pure passing and final ball, with Charlton pulling ahead of Laudrup on other categories. Where we pull ahead is the slight edge in quality and fit between our respective central defences and CFs. We have the better-balanced CB pairing and the best player on the pitch in Beckenbauer even in this star-studded company, and arguably the greatest CF of all-time in Muller, one of the few goalscorers ever that can legitimately claim to be superior to the great Law.

 

[Enigma_87]

It's a tight game and apart from the United bias there are lot of favorite players on that Skizzo/Pat side. To me Beckenbauer and Muller would be decisive in this game. Maldini will have to help Nilton out wide and that will create openings for der Bomber. To me Skizzo/Pat defence is well suited to counter Indnyc strengths and have two GOAT level players that can bring the difference.

 

[Indnyc]

Removed UTD bias for this and I just love pat and skizzos team. I think laudrup is likely to give keane nightmares here, far too intelligent a footballer and can mix it up enough to frustrate keane. Could see an early booking and keane on thin ice the rest of the game.

It’s very difficult to separate the wings. Rivaldo and Giggs at their absolute peak were completely unplayable I just think I’d rather be assisting Müller than Law from the left side. It doesn’t matter who best or Matthews assist because it’s all about their individual genius, and it’s tough to separate here.

I don’t see Cafu working well with best simply because best doesn’t need a player like Cafu to do his thing. Really hard to imagine them playing one twos with each other.

Think there were very few players who really gave Keane a nightmare to be honest. Will not say that Keane will completely stop him but Keane’s best performance for us came against a Juventus team with Zidane and he came out on top.

Best Cafu flank is so potent for me not just because they can play together but it allows Best to roam freely with Cafu keeping the right back honest. We talk about super players and Cafu was just that in being a defensive and offensive player at the same time

 

[Indnyc]

It's a tight game and apart from the United bias there are lot of favorite players on that Skizzo/Pat side. To me Beckenbauer and Muller would be decisive in this game. Maldini will have to help Nilton out wide and that will create openings for der Bomber. To me Skizzo/Pat defence is well suited to counter Indnyc strengths and have two GOAT level players that can bring the difference.

I can’t grudge anybody voting for Skizzo/Pat as their team is fantastic with very little to criticize. For Beckenbauer to be slowed down you need a no.10 like Charlton who will take defensive burden off his midfielders and help in defending against him. By 1970 Charlton was done and Beckenbauer finally scored when Charlton got tired.. He mangaged to keep him relatively quiet until then.. Of course he shut him out in 1966 so i don’t think there is a better player out there that can help against Beckenbauer

 

[Enigma_87]

I can’t grudge anybody voting for Skizzo/Pat as their team is fantastic with very little to criticize. For Beckenbauer to be slowed down you need a no.10 like Charlton who will take defensive burden off his midfielders and help in defending against him. By 1970 Charlton was done and Beckenbauer finally scored when Charlton got tired.. He mangaged to keep him relatively quiet until then.. Of course he shut him out in 1966 so i don’t think there is a better player out there that can help against Beckenbauer

Both teams are full of favorites so it's really tough to separate to me.

It will be a great battle in the middle and I slightly prefer Skizzo/Pat's midfield. I rate Desailly very highly as DM - only behind Rijkaard (alongside Redondo) and with him and Neeskens, Laudrup has a fantastic base to shine.

There's also great balance with an outside right in Matthews and the attacking/overlapping LB and cutting in Rivaldo. On top of that there's the best finisher in the game in Muller.

I think your team is top notch as well and that Best/Cafu right flank is the best I've seen in drafts (behind Zanetti/Garrincha that we got in the SA draft with Joga ). Keane/big Dunc won't give up easily and are up to par with Skizzo/Pat fantastic midfield.

Overall I can see you having advantage on the flanks, whilst the opposition has a notch better core.

 

[Indnyc]

Now to do the unthinkable, maybe even the blasphemous, and try to place the sexiness and emotional resonance of the Law/Best/Charlton Trinity in some sort of context. Long and probably controversial post incoming.

Firstly, all three are top notch footballers in any conceivable pool of players. Secondly, they're an excellent proven partnership, and one that virtually anyone who has ever participated in drafts has fantasized about putting together. What we do question is whether their aura as one of the very greatest collaborations in footballing history is entirely justified.

Success and Longevity:

Best, Law and and Charlton played 10 seasons together at Utd, and won the following:

• Football League First Division: 1964–65, 1966–67
• Charity Shield: 1965, 1967
• European Cup: 1968

That's three major trophies. All three players were unquestionably pivotal to the two league titles, but Law, in an injury-plagued season, was peripheral to the European Cup triumph, appearing in only three matches (two of which were in the first round against Maltese minnows Hibernians). Age, injuries and in George's case addiction issues go a long way towards explaining why their purple patch as a trophy-winning machine was relatively brief, and without doubt it was still one of the most glorious eras in Utd's history. That said, there's plenty of tandems, not least our Beckenbauer/Muller duo, who were comparably key players in more prolific trophy-winning teams.

Synergy:

I don't think anyone in our sub-forum has seen anywhere remotely close to a majority of their matches together, so we're left to piece together the reality of how they performed week in, week out from limited footage and other sources. A (very long) excerpt from Joe Lovejoy's biography on Best on their sometimes uneasy on-pitch relationship:



A more general observation by Johnny Giles about that Utd team:



Factoring in their relatively short peak, relative lack of trophies, and their off-field and on-field frictions, I'd posit that Best/Law/Charlton were a brilliant trio who did add up to the sum of their lavishly gifted parts, albeit briefly and intermittently. I don't know, however, if they really hit the transcendent mark of the absolute top tier of proven partnerships like Xavi/Iniesta, Cruyff/Neeskens, Maldini/Baresi etc, and I don't think they're a better bet than our Beckenbauer/Muller duo to decide this match.

To be fair a lot of 1960’s for us was rebuilding the team after the events of 1958. Best, Charlton and Law were the cornerstones along with Stiles to an extent. Beyond that it wasn’t the greatest team in the world. It is a far cry from the teams Muller and Beckenbauer played in.

League titles in the 1960’s weren’t won a lot by the same team.. In fact from 1960/61 to 1970 decade United were the only team to win it twice.. 8 other seasons we had 8 other champions.

Giles was pretty much forced out of United by Busby so I wouldn’t expect him to have glowing reviews of United.

Are the Trio the greatest partnership in the world? Probably not.. But what they bring is a unique style of play and have a significantly better support system here than they ever did for United

 

[Jim Beam]

Keane - Laudrup battle would decide imo. And I don't know if that is bias or what, but I can see Keane elevate his performance in a game like this to an exceptional level and got more of Laudrup putting his team on the front foot. Something like that night in Turin where he absolutely dominated midfield of with Zidane and Davids.

I really love Skizzo/Pat's team except from that German Pinscher upfront, but will give this one to Indy.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

To be fair a lot of 1960’s for us was rebuilding the team after the events of 1958. Best, Charlton and Law were the cornerstones along with Stiles to an extent. Beyond that it wasn’t the greatest team in the world. It is a far cry from the teams Muller and Beckenbauer played in.

This.

Not to forget, the age gap between the 3 of them is 10 years. Comparing that with Xaviesta/Johan brothers/Kaiser Muller is definitely not level ground.

 

[Indnyc]

They're brilliant individual players and an excellent proven partnership, and I hope people don't overlook that I said that multiple times. Relative to the alchemy that partnerships like Xavi/Iniesta, Platini/Boniek achieved, where the whole was even greater than the sum of the brilliant parts, I think there's evidence that they fall a little short. I mean, you've got it straight from the horse's mouth there from Law, who felt that his own output suffered as Best entered what are generally acknowledged to be his peak years. They didn't achieve the level of protracted success as a unit that other partnerships did either, not least our own Beckenbauer/Muller combination who won this lot together:

4 Bundesligas
4 German Cups
3 European Cups
1 European Cup Winners Cup

1 Euro Championshp
1 World Cup

My main point isn't to shit on the Trinity of all players, but to remind voters that there's an arguably even better combination facing them.

I do get your point but also understand that they winning things weren’t down to just these two.. They had a great support cast behind them.. For United it was not the case..

Same thing with Xavi/Iniesta.. Barcelona would not win as much if it were just the two of them and no Messi for example..

I don’t doubt Muller and Beckenbauer is a great combination but it needs to be tempered with the context of the larger teams they played for when comparing trophies won

 

[Enigma_87]

Keane - Laudrup battle would decide imo. And I don't know if that is bias or what, but I can see Keane elevate his performance in a game like this to an exceptional level and got more of Laudrup putting his team on the front foot. Something like that night in Turin where he absolutely dominated midfield of with Zidane and Davids.

I really love Skizzo/Pat's team except from that German Pinscher upfront, but will give this one to Indy.

Think Edwards will be the one more occupied with Laudrup, rather than Keane. I know that they are on opposite sides in the formation, but I can see Keane trying to play the more attacking box to box role compared to Duncan trying to influence the game, whilst the latter will be protecting the back four on more consistent basis.

 

[Don Alfredo]

My bias is telling me to vote for Skizzo/Pat, but I can't bring myself to it. I nearly voted based on Goalkeeper, but then I thought it would be a dumb idea in the final.

Generally, both teams are very excellent and where it comes down to is the defensive game of Carlos vs the defensive game of Cafu.

What has been accepted as the general consensus is that Cafu is the GOAT in attack and in defence, while Carlos is only great in attack and a weakness in defence when up against a great winger.

Both sides will have some joy on one flank (Best and Cafu vs Carlos / Matthews vs Nilton) while Andrade is well set to shut down Giggs (to an extent).

The question left is will Carlos and Rivaldo be way too much for Cafu, if you take into account that Keane can't help out much because he has to watch Laudrup as well?

If the answer is yes, then Indnyc has potentially 2 problems on the flanks... If the answer is no, then Cafu and Best will dominate that right side completely and win the game right there for Indnyc.

 

[Himannv]

I'm not too sure how Rivaldo and Laudrup would really work together. They both like operating in similar sort of areas and I feel Rivaldo is at his best when most of the play goes through him. @Pat_Mustard did you have another option for that left attacker type role?

EDIT: I see Juan Joya was a possibility. Not sure if he would've been a better fit.

 

[Indnyc]

My bias is telling me to vote for Skizzo/Pat, but I can't bring myself to it. I nearly voted based on Goalkeeper, but then I thought it would be a dumb idea in the final.

Generally, both teams are very excellent and where it comes down to is the defensive game of Carlos vs the defensive game of Cafu.

What has been accepted as the general consensus is that Cafu is the GOAT in attack and in defence, while Carlos is only great in attack and a weakness in defence when up against a great winger.

Both sides will have some joy on one flank (Best and Cafu vs Carlos / Matthews vs Nilton) while Andrade is well set to shut down Giggs (to an extent).

The question left is will Carlos and Rivaldo be too much for Cafu, if you take into account that Keane can't help out much because he has to watch Laudrup as well?

If the answer is yes, then Indnyc has potentially 2 problems on the flanks... If the answer is no, then Cafu and Best will dominate that right side completely and win the game right there for Indnyc.

For what it’s worth i posted earlier that Cafu has a good record against Rivaldo in the 3 games they’ve played together. No goals or assists.

You would also think about how much Giggs/Charlton/ Santos can double team against Andrade (though expect support from Desailly/Neeskens)

 

[Jim Beam]

Think Edwards will be the one more occupied with Laudrup, rather than Keane. I know that they are on opposite sides in the formation, but I can see Keane trying to play the more attacking box to box role compared to Duncan trying to influence the game, whilst the latter will be protecting the back four on more consistent basis.

Think Keane would be everywhere like that has been the case when he was at his best. I just can't see Laudrup having such a great game here and adding Edwards in the mix just makes that feeling stronger.

It is really hard to judge this because you actually can't tell how much United bias ads to your judgment. Tried to be objective as I can though. Tbh, I wasn't so impressed like most people with Indy drafting as I generally don't like putting so many former players together and in the same team. Much prefer when the draft player goes for some system and tries to find different players who fit that particular system. But I can't deny the quality of those first 11 and think they would have more of a chance to win it.

 

[Indnyc]

Think Keane would be everywhere like that has been the case when he was at his best. I just can't see Laudrup having such a great game here and adding Edwards in the mix just makes that feeling stronger.

It is really hard to judge this because you actually can't tell how much United bias ads to your judgment. Tried to be objective as I can though. Tbh, I wasn't so impressed like most people with Indy drafting as I generally don't like putting so many former players together and in the same team. Much prefer when the draft player goes for some system and tries to find different players who fit that particular system. But I can't deny the quality of those first 11 and think they would have more of a chance to win it.

When i started drafting my idea was to build around Sir Bobby as i don’t think he wins enough here or that he gets as much appreciation as some of the others.

With that in mind Best was a no brainer when available and it made sense to unite the Trinity. Everything else was just fitting pieces together

 

[Jim Beam]

When i started drafting my idea was to build around Sir Bobby as i don’t think he wins enough here or that he gets as much appreciation as some of the others.

With that in mind Best was a no brainer when available and it made sense to unite the Trinity. Everything else was just fitting pieces together

Ah no, don't get me wrong, I doubt there is one person who wouldn't do absolutely the same in your place if he had that chance. It is lovely to see, especially because it is United theme. I'm just saying I am generally more excited to see that different approach that I mentioned.

And I absolutely agree with Sir Bobby point. Probably the most underrated big player around here and ironically it is United forum.

 

[Indnyc]

Ah no, don't get me wrong, I doubt there is one person who wouldn't do absolutely the same in your place if he had that chance. It is lovely to see, especially because it is United theme. I'm just saying I am generally more excited to see that different approach that I mentioned.

And I absolutely agree with Sir Bobby point. Probably the most underrated big player around here and ironically it is United forum.

Yeah i am with you on that.. I like building a theme.. Doesn’t always go to plan but it’s nice to see when people do that

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

They're brilliant individual players and an excellent proven partnership, and I hope people don't overlook that I said that multiple times. Relative to the alchemy that partnerships like Xavi/Iniesta, Platini/Boniek achieved, where the whole was even greater than the sum of the brilliant parts, I think there's evidence that they fall a little short. I mean, you've got it straight from the horse's mouth there from Law, who felt that his own output suffered as Best entered what are generally acknowledged to be his peak years. They didn't achieve the level of protracted success as a unit that other partnerships did either, not least our own Beckenbauer/Muller combination who won this lot together:

4 Bundesligas
4 German Cups
3 European Cups
1 European Cup Winners Cup

1 Euro Championshp
1 World Cup

My main point isn't to shit on the Trinity of all players, but to remind voters that there's an arguably even better combination facing them.

Don't think this is valid though because when looking at team trophies you have to compare full 11. After Muller/Beck that Bayern had Schwarzenbeck, Breitner and Hoeness and for Germany you add Vogts, Bonhof and Overath to that. That's six players (not to mention Sepp) better than anyone else on that 60s United side so this comparison is a bit unbalanced.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I'm not too sure how Rivaldo and Laudrup would really work together. They both like operating in similar sort of areas and I feel Rivaldo is at his best when most of the play goes through him. @Pat_Mustard did you have another option for that left attacker type role?

EDIT: I see Juan Joya was a possibility. Not sure if he would've been a better fit.

Joya was exceptionally highly regarded and was by all accounts one of the greats in his position but he's an increasingly hard sell towards the end of drafts due to his limited international career, the poor quality of the very limited footage available, and even the difficulty in getting a full breakdown of his scoring stats. It's really only @antohan 's stellar work in selling him on here that's given him the platform he deserves to impact on all-time drafts at all imo.

We did consider bringing in Gento in both the previous reinforcement rounds to provide a better known alternative on the left of our attack, and if you could still make mid-match subs we'd probably have done that as an option to switch it up. Personally I'm a believer in that Laudrup/Rivaldo link up though. Rivaldo's game was heavily skewed towards scoring and impacting in the final third, with his relative weakness being his playmaking. Laudrup clearly fills that need for the team. Rivaldo also produced much of his career-best form playing alongside various other AM/playmaker types, from Giovanni at Barcelona to Leonardo at WC 98 and Ronaldinho at WC 2002. As long as neither he or Laudrup is stuck at outside left being forced to keep the width for the team (which won't be the case with Roberto Carlos here) they'll interact beautifully imo.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

To be fair a lot of 1960’s for us was rebuilding the team after the events of 1958. Best, Charlton and Law were the cornerstones along with Stiles to an extent. Beyond that it wasn’t the greatest team in the world. It is a far cry from the teams Muller and Beckenbauer played in.

League titles in the 1960’s weren’t won a lot by the same team.. In fact from 1960/61 to 1970 decade United were the only team to win it twice.. 8 other seasons we had 8 other champions.

Giles was pretty much forced out of United by Busby so I wouldn’t expect him to have glowing reviews of United.

Are the Trio the greatest partnership in the world? Probably not.. But what they bring is a unique style of play and have a significantly better support system here than they ever did for United

In fairness to Giles he's a pretty fair pundit, and he's glowingly praised that Utd team and subsequent ones too. Those on-field and off-field frictions between the trio are well-documented elsewhere, so I don't think it can be reduced to Giles being bitter. No doubt whatsoever that you've got a miles better supporting cast.

This.

Not to forget, the age gap between the 3 of them is 10 years. Comparing that with Xaviesta/Johan brothers/Kaiser Muller is definitely not level ground.

Don't think this is valid though because when looking at team trophies you have to compare full 11. After Muller/Beck that Bayern had Schwarzenbeck, Breitner and Hoeness and for Germany you add Vogts, Bonhof and Overath to that. That's six players (not to mention Sepp) better than anyone else on that 60s United side so this comparison is a bit unbalanced.

The trophy count point is a blunt instrument for sure, and frankly useless on its own otherwise Puyol/Pique would be a better partnership than the Trinity too. Playing against this lot on a Utd forum though you've got to start somewhere in terms of demystifying them, and I think it's reasonable to point out that 1) their peak together was short and not really all-conquering if you consider Law's limited role in the European Cup win and 2) there does seem to have been significant tensions between them on the pitch, to the extent that their playing styles don't mesh as perfectly as a group of predominantly Utd supporters like to imagine.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

The trophy count point is a blunt instrument for sure, and frankly useless on its own otherwise Puyol/Pique would be a better partnership than the Trinity too. Playing against this lot on a Utd forum though you've got to start somewhere in terms of demystifying them, and I think it's reasonable to point out that 1) their peak together was short and not really all-conquering if you consider Law's limited role in the European Cup win and 2) there does seem to have been significant tensions between them on the pitch, to the extent that their playing styles don't mesh as perfectly as a group of predominantly Utd supporters like to imagine.

Yea, the argument didn't really sway my vote either way.

For me Indnyc subconsciously has been pulling a lot of votes because of his full backs.

Its very easy to picturize Nilton and Cafu ahead of any pairing he has faced. When there is hardly any difference in quality among the rest of the teams, sometimes these things help.

My vote probably would have been won by your team if Kaiser played in midfield and Desailly in defense. (Thought of bringing this up yesterday but it would have just been a side track away from the match). Don't get me wrong, I still feel Best vs Carlos is a bit of a blunder (at least to a layman like me), I did try to negate it with your excellent Matthews post.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

The trophy count point is a blunt instrument for sure, and frankly useless on its own otherwise Puyol/Pique would be a better partnership than the Trinity too. Playing against this lot on a Utd forum though you've got to start somewhere in terms of demystifying them, and I think it's reasonable to point out that 1) their peak together was short and not really all-conquering if you consider Law's limited role in the European Cup win and 2) there does seem to have been significant tensions between them on the pitch, to the extent that their playing styles don't mesh as perfectly as a group of predominantly Utd supporters like to imagine.

I can see your rationale to attempt a de-mystify

@GodShaveTheQueen I don't know this "Johan brothers". I do know the legend of Hendrik Cruyff though

 

[harms]

Its very easy to picturize Nilton and Cafu ahead of any pairing he has faced.

Not really sure if it's easy to see Nilton get the better of Garrincha and Matthews, when he massively struggled against both in real life.

 

[Ecstatic]

I don't see the defenders here keeping the opposing offensive players under control.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Yea, the argument didn't really sway my vote either way.

For me Indnyc subconsciously has been pulling a lot of votes because of his full backs.

Its very easy to picturize Nilton and Cafu ahead of any pairing he has faced. When there is hardly any difference in quality among the rest of the teams, sometimes these things help.

My vote probably would have been won by your team if Kaiser played in midfield and Desailly in defense. (Thought of bringing this up yesterday but it would have just been a side track away from the match). Don't get me wrong, I still feel Best vs Carlos is a bit of a blunder (at least to a layman like me), I did try to negate it with your excellent Matthews post.

Yeah, when all said and done Nilton and Cafu still leap off the teamsheet at first glance as a pair of GOAT full backs to a greater extent than Roberto Carlos and Andrade. No issues with your stance on playing Roberto Carlos either, particularly given that we had two stronger defensive options available with Marzolini and Andrade. For us, the balance of our attack would have suffered too much though, and we're willing to go toe to toe to an extent given that we feel we have a clear route to goal on the other flank with Matthews' history against Nilton, have at least an equal amount of control and creativity through the centre, and edge it in goal threat and cutting edge largely due to having Muller.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Not really sure if it's easy to see Nilton get the better of Garrincha and Matthews, when he massively struggled against both in real life.

Well, I did argue (a fair amount) against using Nilton at LB in the semis. But what won him my vote was it was Nilton/Cafu on one side and Zanetti at LB and Jose Andrade on right back (enough doubt about that being his actual preferred position or not).

When the attacks/defense and CB's are all well matched, the full backs made my choice easier.

And Matthews vs Nilton and Best vs Carlos, you can negate as much as you want, but most will end up putting their bets on Best winning that battle a lot more times.

Last comment of the day available for me, so won't be able to respond to any further thoughts, but I won't be surprised if a significant amount voted for Indy in the last 2 games because of his FB's.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Not really sure if it's easy to see Nilton get the better of Garrincha and Matthews, when he massively struggled against both in real life.

We'd hoped that would be a much bigger talking point here

 

[Indnyc]

The trophy count point is a blunt instrument for sure, and frankly useless on its own otherwise Puyol/Pique would be a better partnership than the Trinity too. Playing against this lot on a Utd forum though you've got to start somewhere in terms of demystifying them, and I think it's reasonable to point out that 1) their peak together was short and not really all-conquering if you consider Law's limited role in the European Cup win and 2) there does seem to have been significant tensions between them on the pitch, to the extent that their playing styles don't mesh as perfectly as a group of predominantly Utd supporters like to imagine.

I agree their peak together was short.. Probably from 63 to 68.. Which is a reasonable time period if you think about it.. After that you had Sir Busby retire and Law with his injury issues, Best with his drinking issues and Sir Bobby was old..

Off field issues aside, Law scored 46, 39, 24, 25, and 10 goals in that period.

Best scored 6, 14, 17, 10, 32, and 22 goals

Sir Bobby scored 15, 18, 18, 12, and 20 goals

Essentially they didn't really suffer in scoring and creating goals. Someone made the point earlier that if Law didn't score then Best did. If neither did then it was Charlton.

 

[Indnyc]

I can see your rationale to attempt a de-mystify

@GodShaveTheQueen I don't know this "Johan brothers". I do know the legend of Hendrik Cruyff though

 

[Ecstatic]

I have voted.

It could have been in the other way so I'm fine with the final outcome whatever happens

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I agree their peak together was short.. Probably from 63 to 68.. Which is a reasonable time period if you think about it.. After that you had Sir Busby retire and Law with his injury issues, Best with his drinking issues and Sir Bobby was old..

Off field issues aside, Law scored 46, 39, 24, 25, and 10 goals in that period.

Best scored 6, 14, 17, 10, 32, and 22 goals

Sir Bobby scored 15, 18, 18, 12, and 20 goals

Essentially they didn't really suffer in scoring and creating goals. Someone made the point earlier that if Law didn't score then Best did. If neither did then it was Charlton.

All reasonable points. There was clearly no shortage of goals, creativity and match-winning ability there. I'd just reiterate that they didn't necessarily seem to ramp each other up in terms of productivity in the way you'd expect from such a famous combination, and in some ways it can be seen as a zero sum game between Best and Law as regards to who actually got the goals, with their combined totals actually declining in general as Best hit his stride:

1963-64: 52 goals between Best and Law
1964-65: 53 goals
1965-66: 41 goals
1966-67: 35 goals
1967-68: 42 goals
1968-69: 52 goals

Now that doesn't tell the full story given that Law was getting older and more injury-prone, but given Law's own views on the matter I think it's not outrageous to state that only one of those two will be at their absolute best at a given time. Will there be enough firepower to score in a given match anyway? Sure, but when the sheen of that proven partnership is dulled slightly I think we have a strong argument for having the better attacking unit. Muller is the best goalscorer on the pitch, and maybe the best ever, and Matthews/Muller is just a classic creator/scorer duo with minimal room for friction. Rivaldo had probably the third highest goalscoring peak on the pitch after the two No. 9s, and he too looks right at home playing off a centre forward as he did at his peak. Notably, he was able to keep a very high level of productivity even when said forward was a dominant scorer like Ronaldo at WC 2002.