Tech or healthcare? Are you kidding me? These people are coal miners, they're not going to find jobs in silicon fecking valley. Job retraining is the same bullshit that her husband trotted out during NAFTA and working class people know it is bullshit. It's the kind of stuff that gets spouted in liberal bubbles by upper middle class people who work white collar jobs.
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"We're going to put a lot of coal miners out of business"
Its sickening to see the contempt that urban liberals have for the actual working people of this country.
Its sickening to see the contempt that urban liberals have for the actual working people of this country.
Weren't the overseers on plantations also the "actual working people of this country"?
What point are you trying to make
That their work isn't productive for humanity and is causing more hurt than it does good. They think they deserve (often literally because of some god given right) a better lifestyle than 90% of humanity and don't care what they have to do to achieve it.
Why should anyone else care for them?
He's probably wondering why you're defending a horrible industry. Yeah they'll be out of jobs but it's for the better of the world.
And the alternative is what? Stay uneducated, stay in dying industries with no future? Those red states generally that rely on dying industries also have the WORST healthcare, WORST education in the entire country. And it never changes even though they keep voting GOP who give them empty promises about how coal will make a comeback. They never improve the quality of live for the people. They want to keep them uneducated and desperate.
Its easier to paint the picture of brown people coming across the border to infest the country or "replace them" than it is to make a legitimate and real attempt at investing the resources necessary to educate, and steer them towards jobs that are reliable and have a future. Fearmongering works on a base that is desperate and scared. And painting liberals as elitist and "out of touch" while keeping them from learning, or growing works for some reason.
I work in the oil industry here and being realistic to the actual future of these types of jobs is just smart and necessary. Burying your head in the sand about the realities of coal and mining of the type for energy when there are clear and obvious alternatives and more future oriented sectors does not help these people.
Shut up eboue
I'm not defending coal, I'm explaining my original statement that Hillary offered them feckall. If you want to promote a plan that puts them out of jobs fine but you dont get to complain that they voted for the other guy.
I don't think you are reading my posts accurately. There have been similar discussions on here regarding medicare for all and I've had little sympathy for the Humana and Blue Cross employees who would have to find other jobs. When you promote policies that affect peoples lives you will make enemies, I accept that. Democrats promote policies that destroy lives and communities and still feel entitled to vote simply by not being republicans. That's what I'm taking issue with.
great contribution as always
Fair enough then. Agree. Different options for them needed.
Well they are lying to them with false promises that they can retrain and get jobs in tech and healthcare. An actual good plan would be an expanded social safety net and government funded pensions for people whose jobs were eliminated by democratic policies. yes it does need to be done away with but when you tell people you're going to get rid of their livelihoods you cant expect them to vote for you.
liberals are elitist and out of touch though. the rest of your post was addressed in the other replies i just made so ill not retype them here.
There's no good answer when you're talking about entire communities dependant on an dead industry, and I'm not sure I agree with the notion of it being a "democrat policy" to be doing away with coal, it's just reality.
If you're going to say everyone reliant on the industry should be given government funded pensions then that needs to be connected with a way of funding it, which is an overhaul of the tax system. That's fine and I wouldn't disagree with the notion, but good luck getting votes in all the non coal dependant states on the back of that plan.
It's a hugely complex issue, but at least Hillary told them the hard truth, and I'm no big fan of hers.
good luck getting votes in the states destroyed by nafta. thats why hillary lost in 2016
Alright, fair enough, I couldn't expect them to vote for people like me. It's the second part I took more of an issue with though "Its sickening to see the contempt that urban liberals have for the actual working people of this country."
The real work done in the USA is done in Silicon Valley, Manhattan, feck, even Hollywood. Coal accounts for next to nothing, it's a 19th century industry. People who get their hands dirty are always so stuck up about their "work"
thats a yikes from me
Just saying it as it is. They dish out plenty, i'm sure they can take it
. Coal mining contributes about 25 billion to the US GDP of 19.4 Trillion.
The people who are 'stuck up' are snobs like Hillary, the latter-day Nancy Reagan.
i dont think gdp is a good way of measuring work done
I think @Eboue has a point.
It's all well and good people talking about what's best for the environment and what's going to happen in the future, but unless you have a good way of communicating this and what you are doing for the current communities built around these things then you are on to a loser. Further to that, if you've no plan other than "they just have to deal with it" what do you expect these people to do?
We are talking about lives of real people built around generations. If you don't think it's at least a little bit wrong to just brush that aside for the sake of what you see as progress, well, then you don't get why the likes of Trump and Brexit is allowed to happen.
It's not all racism and evil thoughts, a lot of people just don't understand how the world needs to move on. And ridicule and blanket statements just isn't that great a way of educating them. Imo.
It's all well and good people talking about what's best for the environment and what's going to happen in the future, but unless you have a good way of communicating this and what you are doing for the current communities built around these things then you are on to a loser. Further to that, if you've no plan other than "they just have to deal with it" what do you expect these people to do?
We are talking about lives of real people built around generations. If you don't think it's at least a little bit wrong to just brush that aside for the sake of what you see as progress, well, then you don't get why the likes of Trump and Brexit is allowed to happen.
It's not all racism and evil thoughts, a lot of people just don't understand how the world needs to move on. And ridicule and blanket statements just isn't that great a way of educating them. Imo.
While I don't think that its perfect I sure prefer economic output as a measurement of work done to people's subjective judgment of it.
Obviously you do have a point that any democrat will need more than a "we're done with you" to win their votes (same for other people in similar positions). But telling them that we're done with them is still more respectful than telling them their kids have a future in coal.
a garbage truck driver does more work and contributes more to society than anyone on wall street
Does someone with a screwdriver do more work than someone with a power tool?
Like I said before, fundamentally I agree with your position, I'm just saying that on the issue of coal communities the GOP lie to them over and over again, and whilst Hillary's position was obviously not ideal it was in line with the reality they find themselves in.
I'd love to see those communities propped up, but I don't see how it can be achieved without a radical overhaul of the entire politics of the USA.
Which, don't get me wrong, I'd love to see.
its a bad analogy
Why are people talking about coal?. It's on the decline and mines continue to close down.
Yeah, this is the problem.
It's such a tough situation. On the one hand you have someone telling you how it is, but with no care about how to help you. On the other hand, someone you probably deep down know has no care about helping you, but is lying about at least understanding and promising more.
With mouths to feed, it's understandable why so many go for option B. Neither is right, and in an ideal world neither would be an option at all, but it just seems that so many people don't even try to understand the situation they are in.
It wasn't meant as one. It's a question...
I actually agree that most truck drivers contribute more to society than most people on wall street (be that a garbage or otherwise). I wouldn't want to judge who works harder, nor do I have any interest in it. Allocating money is a difficult task though and wall street has done a better job than almost any other institution known to man, hence your hate for it (if it wasn't there wouldn't be a need to hate it). The problem with it is that it benefits a few individuals, not that it isn't working.
What is elitist in wanting healthcare for all the citizens of America? To not have to have people die because they are poor, or be destitute with one family medical emergency? Gop have lied for decades about being able to solve healthcare issues. They got power after those lies and proceeded to show everyone their cards. They had NOTHING. NO plan, no goal other than taking away insurance and benefits from people. There is nothing to hide behind anymore and lie about.
And is it elitist to want to provide affordable higher education and make sure people aren't drowning in debt just to go to school to better themselves and their families?
Elitist to give a shit about minorities, LGBT and civil rights? Protect and fight for groups that otherwise would be stomped on by a rabid GOP. Yes very elitist indeed to try to care about people rather than toss out tax breaks to 1%ers and corporations.
Meanwhile the GOP panders to a shrinking base and scares and whips them into a hateful frenzy of brown people coming to supplant them. And instead of reaching out and expanding that base they scheme and plot to gerrymander the country to limit minority voting power. The Secret Files of the Master of Modern Republican Gerrymandering
But, yes its liberals who are elitist and show it by fighting for the rights of the same minorities the GOP would see never get a full voice by their very own records.
I'll be honest I kind of skipped over most of this. Liberals don't want healthcare for all, socialists do. I'm a socialist.
Out of the top 3 Democratic contenders, Biden, Sanders, Warren 2 of them are pushing healthcare for all and have been responsible for the idea gaining any sort of traction period.
The only one actually pushing it is a socialist not a liberal. Warren is already backtracking to "access". She was a republican until she was forty seven.
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No she didn't. She tried to sell a complete fantasy (retraining to tech and "healthcare" is a fantasy now just like Slick Willy sold that line), they just liked Trump's fantasy better than hers.
I've worked in Hollywood and its about as far from "real work" as it gets. Its nothing close to a meritocracy, its all about who you know and the entire industry is smoke and mirrors and bullshit.
I don't doubt that but people still pay to watch their movies and series. They produce stuff that others value enough to pay for it. That's the definition of work for me.
Teaching them basic coding or computer skills would help them get jobs in IT, not working for Google. In rural America, those are valuable skills that don't always require huge amounts of education. Since most young people leave these areas, they're also viable careers for older workers to fill the void. As for healthcare, the training would be for jobs like nursing, elderly care, etc., not as doctors. There is a dearth of qualified people to care for aging populations in these areas (again, because the young people leave for better opportunities).
What do you propose? Let them keep mining? Lie to them and tell them their industry will get better despite knowing it won't? Pay them to sit at home rather than offering them alternative ways to earn a living?
Bernie Sanders is promising similar things to workers in coal country by diversifying their economies with renewable energy jobs, tech jobs, etc.
By that definition coal mining is real work too. I guess taking everything else aside, I don't see how you can call Hollywood "real work" but coal mining isn't?
Those things arent real. This is just the same line that the Clintons have been spouting for decades and the people targeted have already seen it not work. The jobs arent there, they dont pay well, they dont gave benefits, they require cross country moves, etc.
I've already stated what I propose, an expanded safety net and government pensions. I think that's the minimum people on the left should demand.
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