The what we could have done against Barca thread...

[RedThaiDevils#7]

Well, another sad day... We lost to the best team in the world, take a bow Barca you totally dominated and were deserved winners. Congrats...

Now I'm sure this isn't the right time, but before our memories fade... We should analyze the main points, the root cause of this loss yet again....

My Points of Observation ( feel free to debate) :
The soul reason that we lost was the tactics, I'm not blaming SAF for not learning, nor am I blaming the players... But it was the tactics at the end of the day that decided the out come.

4-4-1-1, great on paper... Not great against Barca, we tried a similar formation against them 2 years ago and it failed too...

Now observing most of Barca's play... Try to count how many times Messi actually tried to wait for the ball from Xavi/Iniesta to be put in the box for him ?

It was because he caused the damage like most people tried to analyze before the match started... The key reason that we didn't work out was how to deel with a CF, who can be one of the best MF's in the game, yet can also be one of the best CF's ?

Messi, dropped deep, caused havoc, always made our MF out numbered in a way...

Barca are a smart team, they will not put the CF to push the back four as they know that they'll be up against a back four that will be organized and static... Thus, once Messi drops deep, their CM actually had Messi-Iniesta-Xavi... Which the trio can both dribble, shoot long shots, and thread in through balls... It just really works for them...

They shift the play and they just get the defense stretched side ways... If they had Ronaldo for Pedro, who knows what the score may have been... They had way too many one-on-ones, it was ridiculous.... Adding to the fact we gave the ball away easily/cheaply too...

I think this was the main root cause from my analysis of this Barca side... They just have too much quality and were too smart for us...

Also, their give and go passing was never picked up... There were tons of time when the players just did a simple one-two in the middle of the Park and we were left stranded... We can't play zonal against them... Or at least we always had to have a man to stop Messi from starting the play... Getting the ball deep and actually running against our Cb's and making them back peddle...

I'm not sure why SAF didn't see this and persisted with Hernandez up front, it was probably our best 2 players up front... But against a Barca side this talented, I'm with Mourinho... Man Mark Messi out of the game with a Destroyer... Similar to the way Pepe' played ( before getting a red card )...

We needed only one upfront imo... Rooney would have been enough and for me, Valencia and a better LW was needed to stretch their play and counter attack.

I still like the Bayern line up... I think that was one of our best attacking football in Europe while we were comfortable at the back too ( They didn't have no Messi though )...

Come to think of it... That was just one issue...

As we've witnesses... Our best LB in the world was again a defensive hole against Barca... Alves and Villa was over lapping him for fun while the tactic for Park to help secure the LW didn't work... Also, many lapses in defending cost us... I mean, we've been pressured all season... But Barca's pressing is just out of the world. They have a back four ready to gamble and intercept every long ball while ALL of their MF's pressed and were only a few steps away from the ball... This really proved Cryuff's Analysis on Barca spot on when he said that Barca always have at least 4 people near the ball...

I realy think we should learn it from them, not copy them though... We also have our own style of pressing Barca's pressing was just too effective against us...

Also it made Valencia look like Bebe' and his form that destroyed A.Cole was never seen...

Okay, I'm a bit drunk now... Thats probably all I can think of, I'm sure there are many more unique, specific points we need to analyze... But I'm sure that this match proves one thing... Never play a 4-4-1-1/ 4-4-2 against them.

We need to attack and defend like a Unit... We also need more off the ball movement and players who actually create space and are available for the pass more... We don't need too many players trying to make runs because our MF will be pressured and won't have enough time to aim for that sky-high-long pass to our attackers.

Farewell VDS... I wish you all the best, VDS Legend

 

[SteveJ]

If you've ever played against a very good 5-a-side team, you'll know how our guys feel. Of course, Barca have Messi, Xavi etc, but there was little United could do without the ball.

 

[Plechazunga]

There's only one way to beat them - pack the midfield and hope for a bit of luck

You can't play two up top, they'll cut you open too many times

 

[Raees]

I don't think we could've done anything with the side as it currently is. We need to buy new players before we can even think about competing.

 

[VoetbalWizard]

should've played 4-6-0 and tried to take it to penalties.

i can't believe we let chavvy waltz through midfield untouched for their first goal like we did iniesta in rome.

don't our lads learn?

 

[Bloxy]

There's only one way to beat them - pack the midfield and hope for a bit of luck

You can't play two up top, they'll cut you open too many times

the key was to give them less time on the ball which we noly did for 10 minutes. SAF should have worked that out in the second half.

 

[Mick1991]

I still think they are beatable. Next year we'll give them another game! Just proud that our lads made it to the final. It's heartbreaking to lose because it is such a rare occasion (although we've upped the rate recently!).

 

[Stanley Road]

They bottled it

After 30 minutes they should have played 10 center backs and hoped for pens

 

[Dobba]

Grown some bollocks.

 

[devilish]

There was so little we could do with the talent we've currently got. Id say 4-5-1 with Carrick-Fletcher-Giggs in CM, Nani on the left and Valencia on the right backing Rooney could have made life more difficult for Barca but that is all.

 

[WireRed]

Dear oh fecking dear, it had nothing to do with tactics, we just lost against a superior team who performed close to their peak, simple as that.

I cannot say that I felt we lacked something tonight, or that we could have done anything different to counter this awesome, once in a generation team. Sometimes in life, you've just got to hold your hands up and say the best team won, tonight is one of those occasions.

I'm proud of the club and the lads tonight, we gave a decent account of ourselves and in my mind at least, put right some of the wrongs of 2009 where we truly let ourselves down, got the tactics wrong etc.

Well done Barca, now the rest of us have got to pull something a bit special out the bag to prevent them achieving back to back CL's, it's going to be difficult.

 

[Stanley Road]

There was so little we could do with the talent we've currently got.

Strange, keep hearing this is a great United side

 

[Cina]

Bought every player we're ***ping over in the transfer forum.

And still lose.

Basically, there's feck all you can do against a team like that.

 

[Gambit]

feck all, learn from it is all.

 

[devilish]

Strange, keep hearing this is a great United side

It is but you can't have weaknesses against Barca or they nail you. Our CM is very weak.

 

[Striker10]

It's tough to say. People ask yourselves this ...would Anderson or Fletcher have made a difference? I think we're guilty of being sentimental. Sir Alex is the best but only a blind man couldn't see Giggs was being raped in the first half. He 'set up the goal' but he was basically an invisible man in midfield.

Maybe we could have made some changes sooner. I think we started the second half poor but i felt in general our defensive line was hopelessly exposed. That was disappointing. I think we needed something in the summer and hopefully this summer we'll be brave because you can't stand still and hope barcelona will f*ck off ..

 

[Plechazunga]

the key was to give them less time on the ball which we noly did for 10 minutes. SAF should have worked that out in the second half.

You can't sprint like that for 90 minutes though. You need more bodies in there.

 

[Anderson15]

Nothing we could of done, they are the best team ever, simple as, players like Hernandez, Fabio will learn from this experience immensely.

 

[reddevilcanada]

Hernandez was completely redundant tonight. He was offside in every sense of the word. Valencia was pretty useless as well. I expected these 2 to be productive in attack.

We should've started with three midfielders, not two. Giggs and Carrick couldn't handle Xavi and Iniesta, especially when Messi dropped deep and made triangles with them as well. Rooney did very little if anything to be of help in midfield, though he was the only hope of us getting anything in attack.

 

[amir51]

I think our formation fine, we did a pretty good job early on. We really lost it in the 2nd half....why were we giving so much space?

 

[RedSky]

Dear oh fecking dear, it had nothing to do with tactics

I disagree completely, we let them play their natural game again tonight due to terrible tactics.

 

[Tareq]

VDS ; did not have the game of his life.

Park : did not track Messi for the 2nd , had a below average game in general

Valencia : Did not get past abidal for once, poor game.

We needed 11 Rooney to beat them, We had only one.

 

[redpie]

We have Rio stood around like a statue thinking we are doing ok because all the play is in front of him. Post match he is talking about it being difficult playing against a team who don't play with a striker. Step up then. Get in the mix further up the pitch.

 

[Lynk]

We could do feck all else, we were up against the greatest team of all time. Don't kid yourself or look back in anger, Madrid are spending hundreds of millions and employed the best young manager in football and they are still light-years behind. Keep the faith, this side will be the best again....never underestimate the power and passion of Alex Ferguson.

 

[Amir]

prayed harder.

 

[redpie]

feck all, learn from it is all.

We had 2 years to learn from it. There is no learning that is the problem.

 

[WireRed]

I disagree completely, we let them play their natural game again tonight due to terrible tactics.

No we didn't, our so called "wrong" tactics had them on the back foot for the first 15 minutes, the problem is that a side as good as them will find it's rhythm eventually and understand what is needed to overcome what their opponent is doing.

Yeah, we ran out of steam, we had some lapses in concentration, but tactics were not responsible for us losing tonight. Sometimes a side is too good to beat if they play well no matter what you come up with, Barca are the one side in the world that this applies to, and the fact is that they did indeed perform somewhere close to their best.

 

[Raees]

We have to tackle the problem at the root, rather than blame tactics etc. There's just not enough talent in this team pure and simple, we're having to play above ourselves at a ridiculous level just to compete. So we just need to accept the defeat, and look to the summer to improve.

 

[Plechazunga]

No we didn't, our so called "wrong" tactics had them on the back foot for the first 15 minutes, the problem is that a side as good as them will find it's rhythm eventually and understand what is needed to overcome what their opponent is doing.

Yeah, we ran out of steam, we had some lapses in concentration, but tactics were not responsible for us losing tonight. Sometimes a side is too good to beat if they play well no matter what you come up with, Barca are the one side in the world that this applies to, and the fact is that they did indeed perform somewhere close to their best.

Once they did find their rhythm we got completely schooled for the rest of the half, the goal notwithstanding. You can't blitz them for the whole game, and once they got going our midfield was repeatedly torn apart. Something had to be changed, nothing was.

We have to tackle the problem at the root, rather than blame tactics etc. There's just not enough talent in this team pure and simple, we're having to play above ourselves at a ridiculous level just to compete. So we just need to accept the defeat, and look to the summer to improve.

It's a given that they're the much better team, but in that situation you have to adapt to give yourself the best chance, you can't just roll out with the side that beat Schalke and hope it all falls into place.

 

[MacMUFC]

There's only one way to beat them - pack the midfield and hope for a bit of luck

You can't play two up top, they'll cut you open too many times

I said this before we played. Look, I have to be honest I have no idea what the feck Fergie was thinking - who am I to question him - but surely Carrick and a 37 year old Giggs were never EVER going to give the defence adequate protection? It was so mind-numbingly obvious, I really, really, really didnt get playing 4-4-2. This is not a reaction, I said it when the game was announced.

 

[Plechazunga]

Me too - and believe me, saying I told you so gives me zero pleasure. Some things you can't legislate for, like Valencia having a shocker. But the notion that Carrick and Giggs would be able to cut it on their own against that lot, was really wishful thinking.

 

[RedSky]

Shame a game of football doesn't last for 10mins then.

We were frankly never in the game and 3-1 flattered us. That in my book means our tactics were terribly wrong. They butchered us and we DID allow them to play their natural game with no pressure in midfield. Souness even identified that as a problem before the game and boy was he right (pains me to say).

 

[Raees]

Me too - and believe me, saying I told you so gives me zero pleasure. Some things you can't legislate for, like Valencia having a shocker. But the notion that Carrick and Giggs would be able to cut it on their own against that lot, was really wishful thinking.

True it was, but even if we tried to contain.. we would've struggled to get the ball to Rooney up front alone. We would've lost either way.

New talent, a more creative midfield, a sexy left winger... this is whats needed to help this team go to the next level.

 

[CentreForward]

The tactics were alright

We couldn't keep up energy wise. While still fresh for 10 min, we're great

 

[RedSky]

True it was, but even if we tried to contain.. we would've struggled to get the ball to Rooney up front alone. We would've lost either way.

New talent, a more creative midfield, a sexy left winger... this is whats needed to help this team go to the next level.

Eh? That's not addressing our problem? All season away from home we've struggled when our midfield has been put under pressure. What we really need is a strong leader in the middle of the park sat next to a creative midfielder.

When teams have a go at our midfield we struggle. When they sit back we hammer them, that's why we're so dominant at home and yet so mediocre away.

 

[MacMUFC]

True it was, but even if we tried to contain.. we would've struggled to get the ball to Rooney up front alone. We would've lost either way.

New talent, a more creative midfield, a sexy left winger... this is whats needed to help this team go to the next level.

Wouldnt you give yourself the best chance of winning though? 4-4-2 was never ever, going to be the answer, in a million years. The truth is, the best i've seen our midfield look in the past 5 years, has been when we've played Carrick, Fletcher and Anderson in a midfield three, particularly in Europe. feck sake, those three would've asked Barca some real questions, why didnt we play that way? I understand Fletcher wasnt fit, but we could've played Scholes in there instead.

Speaking of Scholes, what a simply outstanding player. Ok he was on for 15 minutes, but the horrible truth is that he's probably the only player in our team that was on Barca's level of technical ability. He's one of those players you can puff your chest out and say, "Yeah, he plays for us" kind of thing. I wish he would never retire.

 

[Neil_Buchanan]

I hate to single a particular player out but i dont think rooney tracked back enough, i thought the whole idea of him playing behind hernandez was that he could help break up there play from deep, putting pressure on busquets, he did this well when we dominated in the first 10 minutes but then seemed to want to stay forward - particularly after he scored.
This is why Hernandez barely got a touch of the ball in the second half, there was no support.

Im not just blaming it on Rooney, we gave possession away far too often and our central midfield was not dynamic enough to cause any threat and little creativity.

Ultimately we were outplayed tonight by a class team but we''ll win it next time.

 

[Raees]

Eh? That's not addressing our problem? All season away from home we've struggled when our midfield has been put under pressure. What we really need is a strong leader in the middle of the park sat next to a creative midfielder.

When teams have a go at our midfield we struggle. When they sit back we hammer them, that's why we're so dominant at home and yet so mediocre away.

I'm stuggling to see where we disagree.. leadership in the middle, confidence and mobility in the midfield, all this is vital. Watching Keane in 99 brings it back, the guy under pressure was Iceman, he just always made a forward pass regardless of the intensity of the game, his touch held up and he was able to keep the game moving forward.

 

[Plechazunga]

True it was, but even if we tried to contain.. we would've struggled to get the ball to Rooney up front alone. We would've lost either way.

Well we couldn't hold the ball anyway. Of course we were more likely to lose than win whatever side we played, but we gave ourselves almost no chance.

I hate to single a particular player out but i dont think rooney tracked back enough, i thought the whole idea of him playing behind hernandez was that he could help break up there play from deep, putting pressure on busquets, he did this well when we dominated in the first 10 minutes but then seemed to want to stay forward - particularly after he scored.
This is why Hernandez barely got a touch of the ball in the second half, there was no support.

Im not just blaming it on Rooney, we gave possession away far too often and our central midfield was not dynamic enough to cause any threat and little creativity.

Ultimately we were outplayed tonight by a class team but we''ll win it next time.

I'm pretty sure when Rooney and Fergie had those words on the touchline, Rooney was saying he needed to drop off into midfield, and Fergie told him to stick to the plan.

 

[Richter]

I think Fergie expected more cover from Park and Rooney hence the whole Rooney-Fergie talk at end of the first half. Park is a grinder but he sometimes fails to pick up his man or he stops running. Park was right behind Messi when he scored a bit more effort there and maybe Messi would have had a corner instead of a goal. Also when Park went into the middle to help Carrick and Giggs Barca just pinged the ball to Alves that had a wide open running space especially with Evra being all over the place. I'm not blaming anything on Park he basically had 2 roles tonight and he can't cover both his flank and the middle at the same time.

In the second half Giggs got that role instead which gave Barca even more space. Barca pretty much had control of midfield served on a plate. I think the best way to counter Barca is to play a shadow of their own 4-3-3 formation but United quite simply don't have the players with enough quality in midfield to play a Barca 4-3-3 and hurt them. No team does and that's why they are so fecking good. Fergie had a plan, outwork them and go on the counter and it wasn't enough quite simply. I still think United could have showed a bit more effort though and the players gave away the ball way too cheaply at times.