Learn how to properly pressure the ball.
The what we could have done against Barca thread...
- Thread starter RedThaiDevils#7
- Start date
At half time put Rooney on the left and Nani on the right instead of Valencia and maybe bring on Scholes or Anderson instead of Giggs or Park and gone 4-3-3?
Matters not how much money we or anybody spend. There are absolutely no players available to give this side a game at present. Basically someone has to break up the Barca team, or poach their management.
Thats not true. You'd think we were a million miles away from their level. Going against Barcelona 4-4-2 is just suicide, I dont care if you give me the two best centre midfielders of all time, and I still havent read a reasonable suggestion why we played 2 up top.
The truth is, we're not good enough to play to our strengths against Barca i.e two up top. This game had 4-5-1 written all over it to match them. Barcelona are not unbeatable. If it meant playing a slightly more cautious team, then so be it. Its not like we didnt do in 2008 at the Nou Camp.
so we just give up?
no mate, if we pulled the finger out, brought in schweini an sneijder to partner carrick in a midfield 3, bring back ronnie......we would have a first XI that maybe would only lose by 1 goal...but not get HUMILIATED like we just saw.
Let's try to improve so we atleast deserve to be on the same pitch as them.
If you don't know how to use the ball accurately under pressure, what good is being able to put 11 men behind the ball... the likes of Chelsea and Inter, were strong physical sides but sides which had technically accomplished players who could keep possession in spells when they had to. Hence why Barca struggled against them.. fortunately for Barca, both sides are in decline and whilst the '08 United team had the perfect mixture of tactical discipline and strength in possession due to Scholes, and Ronaldo/Tevez.. this current side, was having to punch above its weight.
Barca are beatable, but you need talent as well as tactical discipline, likes of Park and Valencia are hard workers, Carrick reads the game well.. but they struggle to control the ball under pressure and keep it, hence why likes of Rooney & Hernandez struggle, because they're not fed enough possession to keep Barca on their toes.
Barca are beatable, but you need talent as well as tactical discipline, likes of Park and Valencia are hard workers, Carrick reads the game well.. but they struggle to control the ball under pressure and keep it, hence why likes of Rooney & Hernandez struggle, because they're not fed enough possession to keep Barca on their toes.
It means you have a chance of holding out against them. Hold out for 60-70 minutes, they get frustrated, tire a bit (obviously so do you, you still need a bit of luck), and something might happen. There's no other way to beat them.
Are Snide and Swine even available? Don't forget we are the Champions of England and were unbeaten in the Champions league till tonight. They are simply too good at present, and unless you take 3 players out of the team no team stands a chance.
Seemed a bit odd - Rooney looked as if he was trying to drop into a 451 while Ferguson was bollocking him and telling him to play high.
Yeah that was my reading too. Fergie's plan seemed to be to ride our luck and hope to isolate their centre-halves against Rooney and Hernandez on the rare occasions we got the ball.
Well pete, you called it right, well done. Not a difficult call, admittedly, but you can only beat what's put in front of you.
Sorry, but if that's your thinking going into a CL final, then it's long lost. The way to play Barca, as United, should be to play to your strengths, which are those we display in the premier league - attacking the opposition. We played tonight exactly as we did 2 years ago. Ferguson didn't learn evidently.
We played with 10 men. I don't think Hernandez touched the ball other than when he was offside. If we were going to play that formation Berbatov had to play to try and hold up the ball and link the play.
Whether we use 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 matters little if Messi drops into midfield so they have an extra man. For at least some of this match, Rooney did mark Busquets. The problem was Iniesta, Xavi and Messi against Giggs and Carrick in the centre. If Park moved across to help, then Alves bombed down the right and opened us up that way.
I'm slightly surprised when we fell behind that we didn't go 3-5-1-1. I think I'd have thrown on Anderson, Fletcher and Nani after 60 mins in the hope we could got some control. Taking off I guess Vidic, Giggs and perhaps Valencia. Doubt it would have worked but I felt we needed something radical as it was one way traffic.
I think we could get both, it would be costly.
I don't think Barca are unbeatable. Sure if we play them 10 times they might win 8 times. But based on tonight they'd win all 10.
I really believe we lost because we were unable to pressure the ball properly. We chased the ball, we didn't cut down the angles etc. The manner that we pressure now, works in the premiership mainly because we are that much stronger than most of the teams we play. However when we run into a team as good or better, our lack of fundamentals when it comes to pressuring hurts us.
Plech, the teams that have had success against Barca.. were also capable of holding abit of possession against them. The likes of Chelsea, Inter and ourselves in '08.. we paid Barca respect and yet in spells we could match them in possession.
This current side, no matter which way we shaped up.. there just wasn't enough talent in this side to make a fist of it. Too many weaknesses, 451, 433, 442.. whichever, it would've ended in heartbreak. This Barca side has not lost a single game this season with a full strength side, there have always been mitigating circumstances.. thats just how good they are. They've gone up a level since 08/09.
All our outfield players need to be comfortable on the ball to stand a chance, Ferdinand and Vidic were too negative on the ball, the midfield couldn't turn under pressure and locate forward options, Valencia was out of his depth and predictable, Parks touch was dodgy, bless his heart he tried his bollocks off though.. only Rooney looked like he was worthy of sharing the pitch with Barca tonight.
Its like watching England..
Well we tried to play to our strengths - we played two up top, and the very attack-minded Giggs in midfield - and got throughly schooled.
They're too good, the only chance is to park the bus. I hate seeing United play that way but it was the only thing to do.
Chelsea didn't really keep the ball, and Inter spent most of the time running round like maniacs launching themselves in front of them. 3 in the middle was our best, and virtually only, chance.
Agree with your last paragraph.
This is the key point.
Don't agree with your other stuff about angles, mind. We had two CMs, one of whom was Ryan Giggs, against not only 3 CMs, but the best in the business at passing around sides.
Excellent post.
At this level, a lot of our players just don't have the technical ability or the speed of thought to cope with Barca's pressing game. Rio, Vidic, Park, Valencia, Hernandez, Carrick, even Evra looked woeful. Giggs has the touch but didn't appear to work hard enough for the cause (not that surprising given his age). These are all brilliant players yet the challenge was too much for them.
It was interesting that Fabio looked fairly comfortable relative to the rest of the side; perhaps not quite good enough but promising for someone with so little experience.
In hindsight, we should have gone for
VDS
Back 4
Anderson, Carrick, Park,
Valencia, Rooney, Nani
Giggs and Hernandez offered little. Not blaming them at all and the above side would still prob have lost. For whatever reason, the game passed Giggs by and Hernandez was just too green and raw to be effective in such a high profile game. Oh well.
VDS
Back 4
Anderson, Carrick, Park,
Valencia, Rooney, Nani
Giggs and Hernandez offered little. Not blaming them at all and the above side would still prob have lost. For whatever reason, the game passed Giggs by and Hernandez was just too green and raw to be effective in such a high profile game. Oh well.
Like I said in the other thread, I don't know who we could buy to make us better than Barcelona. Xavi, Iniesta and Messi are phenomenal players. We can't just go out and buy that sort of talent. I also don't see what we could've done differently.
They are just too good at the moment.
They are just too good at the moment.
We don't have the same type of personnel in midfield to play such a game.
Drogba, holds the ball well under pressure, likes of Anelka and Malouda do that pretty well too. Likes of Mikel and Essien, are sharper in tight spaces and more confident on the ball than Carrick when put under pressure.
Chelsea have never looked out of their depth v this Barca side, they've struggled like anyone would do, but they've looked like a side that is capable of hurting Barca throughout 90 minutes, rather than in a 10 minute opening spell.
Inter, Eto'o another very mobile forward played wide, who is strong in possession. Sniejder, Cambiasso.. mobile midfielders who have belief in their ability on the ball under pressure, and Milito who could hold the ball up well under pressure. Not to mention their defence had Lucio and Maicon, very confident ball players, prepared to carry the ball out under pressure.
When we beat Barca back in '08, the forward line of Nani, Tevez and Ronaldo, it was a dream trio. All three, very nimble, very direct and unpredictable.. just the sort of players who Barca struggle against, confident mobile players. Our midfield of Scholes at his peak, with Park and Carrick in support, meant we had a nice balance of defensive discipline and potency going forward.
Current United side, Berba would've been too slow... Fletcher Carrick and Anderson, would've left Rooney as a lone striker, with Nani and Park either side. The game would've been closer I agree, but Rooney doesn't hold the ball up exceptionally well and Park would've struggled to pose a threat.. leaving Nani as our most potent player and its asking abit much to expect him to be a definite matchwinner against Barca.
Been saying all along, the first goal was very crucial.. we needed to be ahead in this game to stand a chance, we were always on the backfoot although 1-1 going into half-time, we should've come out 4-3-3 with Nani coming on for Valencia and Fletcher coming on for Giggs. Anderson could've come on for Hernandez.. over 45 minutes, it would've been a good formation to try and nick a winner.
Forgot to include Fabio, was excellent. Mentally and technically, he's already a United player. Thats the sort of ability we need across the pitch.
I'm not talking about our passing around sides or theirs. I am talking about our pressuring the ball versus theirs. I'd diagram the problem if I had a neat little application to do it.
Essentially, we chased the ball, we didn't play the players or the passes. Barca played the players and the passes.
If we had Park and Giggs pressuring, or Giggs and Evra or whomever was up on the ball, both guys chased the ball. Xavi would have the ball, both players would chase down Xavi who would would play a tidy little pass to Messi or Iniesta or whomever that had moved into space.
What they did against us was completely different. One man would pressure the ball, let's take Carrick for example. Carrick is on the ball, one man would pressure Carrick, everyone else for Barca who was around the ball, did not close down Carrick, they moved to cut off Giggs, cut off Valencia, cut off Evra, cut off Rooney. Simply put, they closed down the passing lanes, resulting in Carrick having to outlet back to Vidic or Rio, who then faced the same problem.
This was exasperated by the fact they were closing down the passing lanes in this manner, which meant that wherever the ball went they had someone on us within a matter of seconds, and because this pressure was constant all over the pitch if we had one loose touch Barca gobbled up the ball.
It is quite astonishing to see Barca play what is essentially a basketball full court press.
Simply put our pressure was wrong, we did it wrong. So yes, while it works against clubs who can't play quick one or two touch football, it won't work well against clubs that can. This isn't a slight about the individual players, it is more the team disposition. Proper pressing in football has to be a team effort. We had no team effort. When one man pressures the ball, the entire team needs to shift and react accordingly to ensure that any release pass is contested immediately.
Well that's all I'm saying. I'm the first to admit we don't have the ideal players for that set-up, and that we'd still have been the most likely side to lose. But against a superior side you have a better chance in a tight game than an open one.
Dunno, I think we pressed like teams press... there's really not that much to pressing. Every side that play Barcelona get passed round. But they find it a lot easier against a two-man midfield with Ryan Giggs in it than against three.
I'm sure I saw more than two players in our midfield though. It's not table football, Plech. Was a bit pointless having Chico upfront on his own though. He should've been taken off at half time...and replaced with Berbatov.
I'm going to post this again.
I reckon we should have man marked Messi (much like Pepe) using one of the twins.
I reckon we should have man marked Messi (much like Pepe) using one of the twins.
The team was as expected. If we'd played a different side, and still lost, we'd have been kicking ourselves for not playing the side we played tonight.
I know that sounds stupid, seeing we got outclassed, but I'm glad we played our best side, and I don't have too many regrets.
Yea, Fletcher might have played, but we needed something else.
I know that sounds stupid, seeing we got outclassed, but I'm glad we played our best side, and I don't have too many regrets.
Yea, Fletcher might have played, but we needed something else.
He wasn't on his own, he had Rooney up with him. He was just offside.
I know it's not table football, but when you have two up top you're necessarily weaker elsewhere. Park had to cover wide as well as helping out in midfield, same with Valencia. Basically they had the ball the whole time and were able to drag our players all over the shop.
I love 4-4-2 but when you're up against the best, something has to give.
Park looked knackered after 60 Minutes.
I'm not having that Plech, I'm watching clips of the game....and we virtually had two banks of four in the second half. Park, Giggs, Rooney and Carrick were in midfield with Valencia helping out in wide areas. Also, Chico was virtually isolated because Rooney kept on dropping deep.
We should have tried something. That would have been pretty radical, but who knows? We just seemed to roll up, hoping that their superiority somehow wouldn't show.
He did. I watched it with MikeUpNorth and he has some kind of sympathetic telepathy with Park. He was very optimistic early on, but on about 60 minutes he started panting and looked like he was going to faint. He also said something incomprehensible at one point - I smiled and nodded, but I've just looked it up and it was 'mummy says bedtime' in Korean.
Er, yeah... that's 4-4-2 Spoons
Second half Rooney went to the left. But before that he was arguing with Fergie and I'm pretty sure he was asking to drop off with Fergie saying no, stick to the plan and stay high.
We could have brought machine guns.
Other than that I only have ideas that would of, at very best, worked as well as Fergie's.
Other than that I only have ideas that would of, at very best, worked as well as Fergie's.
We should have put laxatives in their lucozade bottles.
think they'd have shat on us regardless
Should have put another striker on on for Giggs when we went down in the second half, though Fabio's injury may have changed a few plans.
Evra was playing far to central and getting consistently destroyed down the left because nobody was there.
Dunno, there's not much else I'd complain about because we were just dominated. They killed us around the box and higher up the field we did sod all which was our downfall again.
Evra was playing far to central and getting consistently destroyed down the left because nobody was there.
Dunno, there's not much else I'd complain about because we were just dominated. They killed us around the box and higher up the field we did sod all which was our downfall again.
Point being we didn't just have Carrick and Giggs in the centre of midfield. Actually you could be right, that said Valencia made up a five. I think Rooney was actually playing deep....which didn't please Fergie rather than asking to drop off. Let's be honest, no matter how we'd have set up....the end result would've still been a loss.
Anyway, next season will be our year....
With us pointing fingers in various directions I thought this is a very good point from Pep and very apt.
''If you play this football (like Barcelona) you need these players. At another club maybe I would have a problem to find these kind of players.''
''If you play this football (like Barcelona) you need these players. At another club maybe I would have a problem to find these kind of players.''
Charlie Adam?
We should've changed something after Messi scored, it was painfully obvious we were being overrun.
What happened to all that talk about 3-5-2 with Smalling as a backup plan?
Instead there was a period when I had one proper central midfielder on the pitch and that was Carrick FFS
What happened to all that talk about 3-5-2 with Smalling as a backup plan?
Instead there was a period when I had one proper central midfielder on the pitch and that was Carrick FFS