Fair enough Zehner you argue your points well enough and acknowledge it's your opinion and not everyone will agree.
Thiago Alc*ntara | Still exists
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I think it's generally a tough comparison because although Ballack's prime isn't even that long ago, football has changed drastically since around 2008 and what was the best practice before that isn't necessarily the best practice now, so both perspectives are based on solid arguments. Kroos and Thiago might've been worse players at Ballack's time/developed differently and the same could be true the other way round.For once i agree with Zehner
Ballack was a better floor raiser, while kroos and thiago are better ceiling raisers
On an average team Ballack would be better, on a great team, Kroos/Thiago would be better. Ballack joined an actually great side in Chelsea and added little to it. Compare and contrast with the impact of Kroos and Thiago and Bayern and Madrid
Ballack was a better floor raiser, while kroos and thiago are better ceiling raisers
On an average team Ballack would be better, on a great team, Kroos/Thiago would be better. Ballack joined an actually great side in Chelsea and added little to it. Compare and contrast with the impact of Kroos and Thiago and Bayern and Madrid
Ballack was 30 when he signed for Chelsea, incomparable to Thiago/Kroos joining Bayern/Madrid at the age of 22-24.
That said, I do agree with your sentiment. Ballack was better for a struggling team, Kroos/Thiago are better for a great team.
Yes, and? He wasn't a player in decline, still very much at the peak of his powers, as he demonstrated at the world cup and then the euros
As a Bayern fan, I think Ballack did more for us and was more influential than Kroos or Thiago.
Thiago spent 6 seasons and was only outstanding in his last
Kroos at Bayern was just part of a good team will not be counted as one of the first 7 names. He got injured and the team didn't miss a beat in the CL win. He was like the Pavard of 2020, nice to have but you won't really miss him.
I feel at the peak of Madrid he might not be one of the top 5 players either
Come on, that stretches it too far. Who were the 7 names more important than Kroos back then? Robben, Ribery, Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Neuer and then Kroos I'd say. And it wasn't much between Schweinsteiger/Lahm/Neuer and Krood, if anything at all. And I'd argue he was the third most important player for Madrid behind CR7 and Modric.
Muller, clearly.
Robben Ribery Lahm Schweinsteiger Neuer Martinez Muller. Even players like Alaba Boateng and Mandzukic were useful in the CL win while Kroos was out injured from most of the quarters to the win
In Madrid, I will say Ramos Marcelo Ronaldo Casemiro Modric. Before Kroos got to Madrid they already won La decima smashing Kroos Bayern on the way
Could you explain that? Because as far as I remember, Müller wasn't part of Bayern's best eleven that season. The first choice midfield was Kroos, Schweinsteiger and Martinez and on the wings they had Robben and Ribery in in their primes. Müller was the first back up as a 10 and on the wings and got a lot of playing time since Kroos and Robben were injured for large parts of the season but he was behind both in the pecking order.
Couldn't disagree more. Müller only played due to Kroos' injury and Martinez was nowhere near. I'd also say Kroos had already surpassed Schweinsteiger in ability back then. I remember wishing Gündogan and Kroos would start for Germany at that point in time, if possible with Schweinsteiger in the Busquets role. But if not, I was okay with dropping him entirely in favor of more talented successors.
And Casemiro is a really weird pick. Kroos was so so instrumental to Madrid's dominance. I' m in utter disbelief how underrated he still is. Comfortably Germany's best player in his generation. More ibfluential than Marcelo and Ramos, IMO, who had great moments and match winners but lacked the reliavility with which Kroos did a world clasd job.
Muller was the starter on the right wing and Robben was benched. When Kroos got injured vs Juventus, Muller moved to the 10 and Robben to the right wing
Before that Kroos injury, Bayern was unsure and not even close to being favorite, struggled massively vs Arsenal which they won on away goals and struggled in the group with Valencia and Bate.
Kroos injury made Bayern stronger in 2013
Come on, no sane person would start Müller ahead of Robben in 2014. Robben was injured but easily your best player after his return. There was literally no way he wouldn't become a starter if match fit. That would be like City benching de Bruyne or PSG benching Neymar.
And no, Kroos injury didn't make them stronger, Robben's return did. The best player I've seen in the Bundesliga and this was most likely his prime.
The Madrid three peat dominance started when Zidane integrated Casemiro as the holding midfielder and his influence in destroying attacks before getting to dangerous positions was what stood him out
After Ronaldo and Modric, Ramos was the most influential IMO followed by Casemiro and Marcelo.
Marcelo literally became the playmaker from his left back position
This is not an opinion its a fact, Muller started Bayerns all CL games. You can check transfermarkt
https://www.transfermarkt.us/thomas...12&verein=&liga=&wettbewerb=&pos=&trainer_id=
Link discussing Robbens being unsatisfied with the bench role before Kroos injury vs Juventus
https://m.independent.ie/sport/soccer/robben-unhappy-with-bayern-bench-role-29077127.html
That team that won the treble had players like Alaba, Lahm, Shweinsteiger, Martinez, Robben, Ribery, Mandzukic, Muller etc who were more instrumental than Kroos . So did the 2012 one that was beaten by Chelsea.
madrid won games but were hardly winning because of midfield battle
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Is it true that Giggs once upon a time advised us not to get Thiago because he wasn’t a Man Utd player? I heard this from some Leeds fan I work with. And of course he loves to mention it.
He’s too young and ignorant to know what being a “Man Utd” player means.
Either way, I’ve not seen much of Thiago to have an honest opinion on him as a player.
He’s too young and ignorant to know what being a “Man Utd” player means.
Either way, I’ve not seen much of Thiago to have an honest opinion on him as a player.
And how long was that after coming back from his injury? Robben isn't exactly the patient type. Honestly, there were media stories etc. but everybody in their right mind knew Robben would start eventually. He was the third best player on the planet back then, behind two players who belong in the top 5 of all time. And he delivered. Everbody speaks about Ribery being robbed a Ballon Do'Or but Robben would've been a far more deserving winner for me. He easily outclassed Ribery after his return.
I sorry man but apart from Robben and Ribery, no player was clearly better than Kroos. As I said, I already had him ahead of Schweinsteiger back then. Alaba, Martinez and especially Mandzukic were at least a tier below him. Kroos was the most talented in that squad after Robbery and he had already starting utilizing his potential to the fullest. Without his injury he would've been a contendor for Bayern's player of the season. I mean, he earned his spot in the starting eleven against Müller, Robben and Ribery in their primes..
After 2012 CL loss many fans turned against him and his stock fell as he was seen as not a team player. Robben was even booed by a section of fans in a friendly vs Holland IIRC. Juup played a collective style which Muller contributed to more than Robben who was seen as an individualist. Same reason Mandzukic was favored over Gomez cos he contributed to the press.
Kroos injury was created the opening for Robben which paid off
Even vs Juventus in Munich, Muller started until mid first half when Kroos got injured and Robben had to come in
Kroos and Muller started consistently over Robben in 2013
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Yeah, I remember that and I also remember that I never took it seriously. It was a story created by the media for the sole purpose of headlines. You don't leave such a player out. No offense against Müller, he was incredible back then, but he never even came close to the level Robben possessed and that was probably the best version of him. Having Ribery and Robben in your squad at that time was probably just as good as having Messi or Cristiano. You don't rob yourself of such quality. Robben 'finally' reclaiming his starting spot was as much of a surprise as the good guys winning at the end of a Hollywood movie.
And as far as I remember, it was fairly very short period after his return from injury during which he was onlysecond choice. It's more of a testament to his quality that this caused so much media attention.
Also, as far as I recall, it was Kroos' development into a top play maker that pushed Müller from his central position back to the (rather unloved) right wing again. He was lucky Kroos got injured because I don't think there was any possibility of Heynckes benching his favourite student in top form. And as I said, you simply don't bench Robben in that form either unless you are a secret agent from 1860.
No way was Kroos the 3rd most influential player for Madrid in their 3-peat years. He was obviously a key player but not top 3 when you have Marcelo running games from LB and the colossal Ramos at CB. At best, he was 5th and even then that’s debatable as you also have guys like Casemiro (like the other use mentioned) who I think was more pivotal than Kroos both in 16/17 & 17/18 with virtuoso performances against Atletico & Napoli (home) 16/17; PSG (away) 17/18 and obviously scored in the 2017 final. Kroos was usually good with the team but never outstandingly good like the aforementioned were (imo).
Thiago is back and his short cameo against Newcastle showed a glimmer of what he brings to the Liverpool side.
I can definitely understand if the Scousers are optimistic about him raising their team’s level.
He even won most of his duels in the air.
I can definitely understand if the Scousers are optimistic about him raising their team’s level.
He even won most of his duels in the air.
The commentators were wanking a bit too much over his cameo but he obviously brings a different element to this Liverpool side where it seems teams are hedging more on blocking delivery from the wings.
He would have been an asset to any PL side, surprised only Liverpool were in for him.
He would have been an asset to any PL side, surprised only Liverpool were in for him.
He looked a different class when he came on unfortunately. But chances are it won't be long till he's out injured again knowing him.
I think if he stays fit he'll be a major factor in them winning the league with a bit more ease.
I think if he stays fit he'll be a major factor in them winning the league with a bit more ease.
He could have made two passes and he’d have looked better than the performance Jones stank up. He did make a few nice over the top passes though that they have been missing and gives a different dimension to their play aside from give it to the fullbacks.
A few six-yard sideways passes on the half-way line against a team who have ten men inside their own box is something to be raving about now, apparently. 
Is there never anything Scouse-related that’s not wanked off by the Scouse-loving media? When they have poor results and poor performances, the pundits always cling to some positive from a Scouse perspective. Even when Atletico spanked them home and away in last season’s Champions League, Michael Owen spent ten minutes banging on about how the Atletico players would be in awe of Liverpool after the match. How fecking out of touch and totally self-unaware can one be?
It’s absolutely bizarre.
Is there never anything Scouse-related that’s not wanked off by the Scouse-loving media? When they have poor results and poor performances, the pundits always cling to some positive from a Scouse perspective. Even when Atletico spanked them home and away in last season’s Champions League, Michael Owen spent ten minutes banging on about how the Atletico players would be in awe of Liverpool after the match. How fecking out of touch and totally self-unaware can one be?
It’s absolutely bizarre.
He only wanted to go to Liverpool. It didn’t matter who was in for him.
I also don't get this. I watched the matched he did absolutely nothing of note at all. People act like he scored the winner or something. He didn't. He actually slowed their play down.A few six-yard sideways passes on the half-way line against a team who have ten men inside their own box is something to be raving about now, apparently.
Is there never anything Scouse-related that’s not wanked off by the Scouse-loving media? When they have poor results and poor performances, the pundits always cling to some positive from a Scouse perspective. Even when Atletico spanked them home and away in last season’s Champions League, Michael Owen spent ten minutes banging on about how the Atletico players would be in awe of Liverpool after the match. How fecking out of touch and totally self-unaware can one be?
It’s absolutely bizarre.
Ah I see
Why Le Tallec will be our Ronaldo
In most cases, paying £12m for a teenager would be considered rank stupidity, over-indulgence or, at the very least, a gamble which even Chris Kirkland's dad would shy away from. When Manchester United do it, it's a stroke of transfer genius.
According to everyone who they make listen, United have just signed the best teenager in the world. By God are we hearing about it. I'm not doubting Ronaldo's abilities. Clearly he's a talented kid who may be on the threshold of greatness. It just strikes me as rather odd that no-one has given the same attention to Liverpool's equally stunning new teenage recruit. It seems Gerard Houllier's mistake with Anthony Le Tallec was to buy him early rather than delay until everyone in Europe wanted him. Obviously, Liverpool should have waited until Le Tallec's value was £12m.
Soon enough, the rest of the nation will wake up to the fact Le Tallec and Ronaldo played in the same world youth championships not so long ago and it was the Liverpool new boy who was voted the best player. No doubt both Gerard and Sir Alex watched those same youth championships in Malaysia a few years back and noticed the same players.
Indeed, Liverpool had already signed Le Tallec by then and were strongly linked with Ronaldo themselves, but can't afford to splash out like United. Time will tell who's got the better deal, but for value for money I know who I'm backing. It's a bit like Houllier and Ferguson have both dined at the same top class restaurant and had their pick of the best main courses on the menu.
Houllier has managed to get his dish at a quarter of the cost Ferguson has paid, and yet it's his rival who is getting all the praise. Indeed, I'm getting an eerie sense of deja vu when it comes to the man dubbed TLT who's about to explode onto the Premiership. I remember how slow our London based number one writers were to realise who Steven Gerrard was a few years back.
The Kop Magazine I once wrote even launched a campaign to get him in the England squad, so little attention was he receiving. Then, when the rest of the country noticed a year later, they decided to make him their own property. It was a similar story with Wayne Rooney at Everton. A friend of mine who works on a national newspaper tried to get a feature on Rooney into his paper in the summer of 2002. They were having none of it. How times changed three months later when "Rooney Opens Crisp Packet" stories were making the front page.
Le Tallec won't get the same attention as Rooney, Gerrard or Michael Owen because he ain't English. But the few glimpses I've had of him remind me so much of the first time I saw Gerrard. So young, yet so full of class. So clearly ready to play at the highest level and begin the learning curve which will take him to the top of the game.
One of the most encouraging, but sadly overlooked parts of Sunday was Le Tallec's being named a sub. Pity he didn't get on, although Houllier said he was prepared to play the youngster if the circumstances of the game had been different. The career paths of Le Tallec and Ronaldo are sure to cross regularly over the next decade. Should the French gem prove himself the better player, you never know, maybe the manager who signed him will get a bit of credit.
How awful it was to watch on Sunday, don't you think? A team flooding the midfield, sitting back, making no effort to take the game to their opponents but content to hit on the break. I mean? One man up front against one your biggest rivals? What were they thinking? And how they paid a price for their caution when in the late stages their opponents scored a well deserved goal.
Liverpool? Try Chelsea.
Chelsea were impressive, but it seems Claudio Ranieri is allowed to use these counter-attacking tactics while Liverpool are not. I dare not think of the reaction had Gerard Houllier taken a team to Stamford Bridge and played one striker. Even if his side won!
Last week, I wrote a column saying whatever happened this season, it would be progress to leave Anfield feeling suitably entertained. Well, I was. It was a fine match between two excellent sides and Liverpool contributed to it.
All that was wrong with the performance was the result. Entertaining,
losing football is still better than boring, losing football. The next
trick is to entertain and win, something I'm sure will happen if Liverpool play with the same commitment and attacking intent they showed on Sunday (and have Steven Gerrard in the side),
Of course, the TV and radio bandits had decided Bruno Cheyrou and Igor Biscan were going to be rubbish regardless of what happened. Cheyrou and Biscan had their best games for the club on Sunday. Whether that's still good enough is another matter, but they weren't Liverpool's worst players. No, that honour went to those beyond criticism whose name is likely to be sung first and loudest.
Liverpool lost because they didn't defend properly when they were called upon. Something which cost them key points last year too but is conveniently overlooked by cowards who pick easy targets.
- Chris Bascome, sportswriter for the Liverpool Echo - 19 August 2003 compares the talents of two young forwards. He works for The Daily Telegraph now.
his quote was something like “they have never seen a team like this”.A few six-yard sideways passes on the half-way line against a team who have ten men inside their own box is something to be raving about now, apparently.
Is there never anything Scouse-related that’s not wanked off by the Scouse-loving media? When they have poor results and poor performances, the pundits always cling to some positive from a Scouse perspective. Even when Atletico spanked them home and away in last season’s Champions League, Michael Owen spent ten minutes banging on about how the Atletico players would be in awe of Liverpool after the match. How fecking out of touch and totally self-unaware can one be?
It’s absolutely bizarre.
hmmm. Barcelona or Real...
The commentary during the Newcastle match was truly repulsive.
I hope he’s embarrassed by that...
But knowing Liverpool supporters, there will anyways be an excuse.
Giggs talking about ignorance and youthful misdemeanour
.It’s his technical capacity that’s very noticeable when watching him play. If I was a Liverpool fan I’d be happy with Fabinho, Henderson, Thiago, in the middle in defence/attack.
Its seem-less how Fabinho has slotted into their back line.
You can see why there’s optimism.
Classic article that.
Up there with this “Why would we want to sign Zinedene Zidane when we have Tim Sherwood?” - Jack Walker
First you say that Robben is the best player you have seen in the Bundesliga (and i agree), and this was his best year (i think 2010 was better), and then you say Kroos would be a contender for best player of the season? Makes little sense to me, especially since Ribery had one of his best seasons.
Honestly though, Kroos was good, yes, and Heynckes knew him very well from his Leverkusen days, but he was nowhere near top 5 in that Bayern squad. Robben, Ribery, Müller, Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Neuer, Boateng, Alaba and pretty much all of them in their primes. Not even mentioning overperforming players like Martinez and Mandzukic.
It was a mistake to let him go, yes, but his standing in Munich was not that high. And that's why he left and probably it was the right thing to do for his career.
End of 1st half against Southampton. Liverpool down 0-1 and he's just about their worst player. Is this yet another foreign import who can't cut it in the PL or just plainly overrated?
It's 1 half....
Could be their Pogba. Takes away a bit of their drive for soneone who can pick a better pass but leaves their midfield deficient in what made them great.
It‘s his first game back after a significant injury, he was good enough for Barca and Bayern, he was the dominant player in a CL final: sure, he is not up to the elite level of the PL.