Timothy Fosu Mensah

Sir A1ex

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Ole's_toe_poke said:
Man Utd's identity is broken. They don't believe in youth anymore.
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I get your point, but we'll always bring top youth players. Even if they don't become first teamers, we can generally make a profit out of the academy.

The proof of how much the people who matter "believe in youth" is how they progress into the first team picture.Hopefully once LVG has got to grips with everything, that will become a more regular occurrence than ever!

Also, while I love seeing a kid we've picked up at 16 coming through the youth system, for me personally, it's only half as exciting as a kid who has only ever been at United, and we can hence claim 100% credit for his footballing education. That's not in any way a complaint or criticism (of the club or anybody in here), I'm just saying like!
 

Dan_F

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Sir A1ex said:
I get your point, but we'll always bring top youth players. Even if they don't become first teamers, we can generally make a profit out of the academy.

The proof of how much the people who matter "believe in youth" is how they progress into the first team picture.Hopefully once LVG has got to grips with everything, that will become a more regular occurrence than ever!

Also, while I love seeing a kid we've picked up at 16 coming through the youth system, for me personally, it's only half as exciting as a kid who has only ever been at United, and we can hence claim 100% credit for his footballing education. That's not in any way a complaint or criticism (of the club or anybody in here), I'm just saying like!
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Yep. I felt way worse yesterday when I knew that Welbeck would be leaving than I did when Pogba left. I watched Pogba in the Under 18's plenty, and it was clear he was going to be a star, but losing Welbeck was different.
 

FromTheBench

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stu_1992 said:
Exactly this type of signing will go unnoticed to the naysayers, but it shows we haven't just forgotten about the youth system overnight.
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Even City and Especially Chelsea do plenty of acquisitions and this level.(Probably Real as well.) I think you are mixing up few things. Chelsea has 26 or something players out on loan and have a good academy but none seem to break through. Even Matic was part of their academy before they gave him for being slow IIRC in a exchange deal and then bought him back for 20 million + straight into first team 2/3 years down the line.

Sir A1ex said:
I get your point, but we'll always bring top youth players. Even if they don't become first teamers, we can generally make a profit out of the academy.

The proof of how much the people who matter "believe in youth" is how they progress into the first team picture.Hopefully once LVG has got to grips with everything, that will become a more regular occurrence than ever!

Also, while I love seeing a kid we've picked up at 16 coming through the youth system, for me personally, it's only half as exciting as a kid who has only ever been at United, and we can hence claim 100% credit for his footballing education. That's not in any way a complaint or criticism (of the club or anybody in here), I'm just saying like!
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Good post. Fully agreed.
 

stu_1992

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FromTheBench said:
Even City and Especially Chelsea do plenty of acquisitions and this level.(Probably Real as well.) I think you are mixing up few things. Chelsea has 26 or something players out on loan and have a good academy but none seem to break through. Even Matic was part of their academy before they gave him for being slow IIRC in a exchange deal and then bought him back for 20 million + straight into first team 2/3 years down the line.
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Fair point but I do think this signing shows that we will continue to look to develop youngsters at this club.Time will only tell if the players in our youth system are good enough to break through, but I do think we are genuinely still interested. Unlike Chelsea, they seem to be interested in the buy low/sell high aspect of youth development, where the development takes place almost exclusively outside the club. I don't see us going that. We've already seen 3 or 4 academy players get a chance this year.
 

Mr. MUJAC

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Sir A1ex said:
I get your point, but we'll always bring top youth players. Even if they don't become first teamers, we can generally make a profit out of the academy.

The proof of how much the people who matter "believe in youth" is how they progress into the first team picture.Hopefully once LVG has got to grips with everything, that will become a more regular occurrence than ever!

Also, while I love seeing a kid we've picked up at 16 coming through the youth system, for me personally, it's only half as exciting as a kid who has only ever been at United, and we can hence claim 100% credit for his footballing education. That's not in any way a complaint or criticism (of the club or anybody in here), I'm just saying like!
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Depends how long you have been following the youth team. Up to 2007 you wouldn't have had any 'fully' developed youngsters come through at all.

We have been developing 15/16 year old kids through our youth system since 1938…it's always been exciting.
 

Mockney

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Mr. MUJAC said:
Everyone was before 1999...
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You could sign schoolboy forms though? Beckham and Giggs were both younger when we "technically" snapped them up. They're of course exceptional examples, but I'm sure they weren't the only ones.
 

Mr. MUJAC

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Sir A1ex said:
I don't get what you mean...?
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Before 1999 (when Academies were introduced), you could only sign players at 15/16 when they left school. That was the law. Within 12 months they could be playing in the first team.

Then in 1999, you could sign kids as young as 8 years old. Originally on either a one-year or two-year contract and then they could leave after that (or not retained). So in 1999 if a player was 8…re would have to wait until he was 16 (i.e. in 2007) before being offered a scholarship.

A scholarship has been offered to kids at that age since 1938. We didn't always call them that but it's the same concept. Then they become available for the youth and first teams.

So…if you use that thinking…then our youth system has only been developing talent since 2007 (or 1999 if you want to be pedantic but kids could play then so it's irrelevant really)…which is completely ridiculous.

So…for the purposes of true consistency…I don't get too excited about anyone until they are offered a scholarship.
 

Mr. MUJAC

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Mockney said:
You could sign schoolboy forms though? Beckham and Giggs were both younger when we "technically" snapped them up. They're of course exceptional examples, but I'm sure they weren't the only ones.
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Yes but Schoolboy forms was in your last year of school…so it was purely a process to capture kids as they became known in schoolboy games. While United might have had loads of lads signed up to Centre's of Excellence…they weren't binding contracts. In fact, neither were schoolboy terms in reality but now you're getting into a legal/contractual conversation.
 

Sir A1ex

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Mr. MUJAC said:
Before 1999 (when Academies were introduced), you could only sign players at 15/16 when they left school. That was the law. Within 12 months they could be playing in the first team.

Then in 1999, you could sign kids as young as 8 years old. Originally on either a one-year or two-year contract and then they could leave after that (or not retained). So in 1999 if a player was 8…re would have to wait until he was 16 (i.e. in 2007) before being offered a scholarship.

A scholarship has been offered to kids at that age since 1938. We didn't always call them that but it's the same concept. Then they become available for the youth and first teams.

So…if you use that thinking…then our youth system has only been developing talent since 2007 (or 1999 if you want to be pedantic but kids could play then so it's irrelevant really)…which is completely ridiculous.

So…for the purposes of true consistency…I don't get too excited about anyone until they are offered a scholarship.
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Ah I see what you mean.

Well, we all know that Giggs was at City's school of excellenec for a period and even in this day and age kids move about various clubs before they are 15/16. My differentiation was really between kids who sign with us as their first proper scholarship contract, as opposed to those who we have to agree a transfer from another club, such as Mensah, Pogba etc.

I suppose it's more a case of us fully "unearthing them" more than a case of having been solely responsible for their training.
 

Mr. MUJAC

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Sir A1ex said:
Ah I see what you mean.

Well, we all know that Giggs was at City's school of excellenec for a period and even in this day and age kids move about various clubs before they are 15/16. My differentiation was really between kids who sign with us as their first proper scholarship contract, as opposed to those who we have to agree a transfer from another club, such as Mensah, Pogba etc.

I suppose it's more a case of us fully "unearthing them" more than a case of having been solely responsible for their training.
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Giggs wasn't signed up to City's COE…however he was training with them for a short spell.

The likes of Mensah won't have had a 'scholarship' with Ajax…it's against the law like in this country. We have scouted him just like we did with hundreds of others. He just happened to be in Ajax's youth set-up.

Mensah's first ever scholarship will be with us.

However, to reflect the work put in by Ajax they get compensation. They will also be expected to pay some of that to the junior club Mensah was at originally.
 

Will Absolute

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Mr. MUJAC said:
Before 1999 (when Academies were introduced), you could only sign players at 15/16 when they left school. That was the law. Within 12 months they could be playing in the first team.

Then in 1999, you could sign kids as young as 8 years old. Originally on either a one-year or two-year contract and then they could leave after that (or not retained). So in 1999 if a player was 8…re would have to wait until he was 16 (i.e. in 2007) before being offered a scholarship.

A scholarship has been offered to kids at that age since 1938. We didn't always call them that but it's the same concept. Then they become available for the youth and first teams.

So…if you use that thinking…then our youth system has only been developing talent since 2007 (or 1999 if you want to be pedantic but kids could play then so it's irrelevant really)…which is completely ridiculous.

So…for the purposes of true consistency…I don't get too excited about anyone until they are offered a scholarship.
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That post reads like Nietzsche. But I'm now confident I understand it (I think)

We've had a number of disappointments in the last ten years. Rossi, Pique and Pogba were all United quality and yet we lost them. We grossly mishandled Pogba and didn't cover ourselves in glory with the other two either. I really hope we get it right with Januzaj, Blackett, Wilson and Pereira.
 

Sir A1ex

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Mr. MUJAC said:
Giggs wasn't signed up to City's COE…however he was training with them for a short spell.

The likes of Mensah won't have had a 'scholarship' with Ajax…it's against the law like in this country. We have scouted him just like we did with hundreds of others. He just happened to be in Ajax's youth set-up.

Mensah's first ever scholarship will be with us.

However, to reflect the work put in by Ajax they get compensation. They will also be expected to pay some of that to the junior club Mensah was at originally.
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I guess it's hard to compare different eras, with the system changing... we've supposedly paid £250k or something for this lad, whihc is a whole differnt ball-park to anything that would have changed hands 20 years ago (even accounting for transfer fee inflation). There is also much more widespread information across Europe about young players, and much more sillingness / ability for them to move abroad at 16.

It just feels a bit different when we're picking up a player who every big club in Europe must have been at least vaguely aware of, rather than some kid who was on nobody's radar until first starting to impress for our youth teams. I guess the acid test is whether a player's signing is widely known about (other than by youth team obsessives such as yourself:smirk:), or whether the first most supporters hear about is when he's turning out for the U-16s team.
 

jb8521

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He captained Netherland u17s in yesterdays 3-1 win against Italy
 

FromTheBench

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Interesting that he is training with the U21s atleast already (or the first team?)
 

jb8521

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Fosu Mensah is in the Netherlands u17 squad for the u17 Euro qualifiers against Finland, Malta and Serbia from October 17th-22nd
 

FromTheBench

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United coach McGuinness awaits Mensah's debut

Paul McGuinness is looking forward to Timothy Fosu-Mensah making his debut for Manchester United's Academy.

The Dutch teenager was signed from Ajax before the September transfer deadline and is awaiting international clearance in order to pull on a red shirt for the first time. He is currently away with the Netherlands Under-17 squad for the European qualifiers against Finland, Malta and Serbia.

"A lot of clubs have got foreign imports from all over the place [in their academies] and while we would like to get one or two more imports ourselves, we have started with the signing of Timothy from Ajax," McGuinness told ManUtd.com.

"We would like more recruits but, while we haven't got them, the advantage is we do have a very tight-knit group who have been here a long time, some since the age of seven or eight. The team spirit is fantastic.

"Timothy is still waiting for international clearance but he looks a really mature and talented player. He covers the ground well and I think he can make a big impact at our level. He can play in a number of positions - centre-back, midfield or full-back, so I think he's another good, adaptable and highly-talented player."

http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...x?newsid=054149FA-E3E4-45F0-BF96-AF3FB91317EB
 

Elliott

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Publicly bemoaning a lack of recruitment is an interesting move from McGuinness. I wonder what his motivation might be. Perhaps a gentle kick up whoever's in charge of that sort of thing's backside?
 

jb8521

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Elliott said:
Publicly bemoaning a lack of recruitment is an interesting move from McGuinness. I wonder what his motivation might be. Perhaps a gentle kick up whoever's in charge of that sort of thing's backside?
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He wanted another few signings during the summer and actually went and scouted players himself but they didn't materialize for a couple of different reasons which he doesn't seem too pleased about
 

khoazany

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Elliott said:
Publicly bemoaning a lack of recruitment is an interesting move from McGuinness. I wonder what his motivation might be. Perhaps a gentle kick up whoever's in charge of that sort of thing's backside?
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As you know we wanted to sign Chris Willock and Oberlin Mfomo and there're other players we were targeting but their names weren't in the media.Nobody was signed from that lot due to various reasons including financial.Not to mention the lack of willingness to pay over the odds for English talent from Cat 1 academy that's why we missed out on Borg.If you are the manager there's no way you would be pleased with that.

The lack of good result in the U18s is an inevitable consequence of that lack of import.I couldn't care less about the result as long as we produce players but undoubtedly we weakened ourselves in the transition from U16s to U18s by only releasing players (they might not good enough but they could still be factored into "team strength") while other teams signed new players to strengthen the team and improve the overall quality of the crop coming through.Imported players do contribute an important part in the number of players on the first team coming through the academy nowadays for us (see Januzaj,Pereira and McNair) so it's another factor that frustrated the youth coach obviously.
 
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mo0

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over the odds for English talent? EPPP caps it at 250k! foreign talent arguably much more.

more clubs and more years should be focusing on a "very tight-knit group who have been here a long time, some since the age of seven or eight. The team spirit is fantastic."
 

khoazany

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mo0 said:
over the odds for English talent? EPPP caps it at 250k! foreign talent arguably much more.

more clubs and more years should be focusing on a "very tight-knit group who have been here a long time, some since the age of seven or eight. The team spirit is fantastic."
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The main purpose of an academy is to produce individuals, not a group or team.Also it's nice to have players coming through who has been here since seven or eight but the most important aspect is always talent not how many years you have been at the club, although the quality of youngsters who have been at the club since a very young age do reflect the quality of that academy.

"Over the odds" is another way of saying that some at the club don't think normal Cat 1 academy talents (aka Borg) are worth that 250k.United were willing to pay much more for Mensah because they think he is worth that amount of money.Whether it's a right judgement is remain to be seen.
 
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FromTheBench

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Still don't get why United scoffed at paying 250k for Borg. Coaches including Mcguiness, Must have not rated him.


Actually United could do with improving domestic recruitment as well. Foreign recruitment has still been OK at 16 but Lagged behind in terms of signing up the best domestic talents when a possibility arises compared to likes of Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and maybe Spurs and City even.

From United's end there seems to be a aversion to doing hostile youth acquisitions domestically while Say Arsenal snap up likes of Crowley, Chelsea Isiah Brown and Liverpool Dhanda etc.. amongst others.
 

jb8521

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According to the ajax website we only have to pay €130,000 for Fosu Mensah
 

Sean_RedDevil

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khoazany said:
As you know we wanted to sign Chris Willock and Oberlin Mfomo and there're other players we were targeting but their names weren't in the media.Nobody was signed from that lot due to various reasons including financial.Not to mention the lack of willingness to pay over the odds for English talent from Cat 1 academy that's why we missed out on Borg.If you are the manager there's no way you would be pleased with that.

The lack of good result in the U18s is an inevitable consequence of that lack of import.I couldn't care less about the result as long as we produce players but undoubtedly we weakened ourselves in the transition from U16s to U18s by only releasing players (they might not good enough but they could still be factored into "team strength") while other teams signed new players to strengthen the team and improve the overall quality of the crop coming through.Imported players do contribute an important part in the number of players on the first team coming through the academy nowadays for us (see Januzaj,Pereira and McNair) so it's another factor that frustrated the youth coach obviously.
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http://www.dailysabah.com/basketball/2014/10/09/english-teen-star-oscar-borg-a-target-for-turkey
 
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