Tiredness

Brwned

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Why are the pundits acting like this isn't a thing? Guardiola, Klopp, Ole, etc. have all said from the very beginning that their players will either have to push themselves past their limits and get injured more often, or they'll have to play more conservatively to get through the non-stop 3 games a week for club and international matches.

It's obvious that Guardiola's high intensity passing and Klopp's high intensity pressing depends on having fresh legs and minds too. Yet the pundits are just pretending this is any other normal season and they're wondering why people are ambling about after 80 minutes. Given so many of them are ex-pros, it seems a bit strange.

You have to wonder what state the players will be in after the Christmas period because the ones who play at full pace, people like Bruno, just look like they're going to run themselves into the ground.
 

VP89

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Why are the pundits acting like this isn't a thing? Guardiola, Klopp, Ole, etc. have all said from the very beginning that their players will either have to push themselves past their limits and get injured more often, or they'll have to play more conservatively to get through the non-stop 3 games a week for club and international matches.

It's obvious that Guardiola's high intensity passing and Klopp's high intensity pressing depends on having fresh legs and minds too. Yet the pundits are just pretending this is any other normal season and they're wondering why people are ambling about after 80 minutes. Given so many of them are ex-pros, it seems a bit strange.

You have to wonder what state the players will be in after the Christmas period because the ones who play at full pace, people like Bruno, just look like they're going to run themselves into the ground.
Quite sure when the commentator or Gary said they are "ambling" at the 80 minute mark, they followed it up to say that's what happens when games come thick and fast, especially with United who travelled on Tuesday and came back a couple days ago.
 

cyberman

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Great point. Fans are forgetting the quality of football will tank this season and this is the start of it. Especially with the Christmas period coming up.
Although City have had the week off basically so I cant explain that one. If the pressed us at all I think we were in trouble
 

sammsky1

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Great point. Fans are forgetting the quality of football will tank this season and this is the start of it. Especially with the Christmas period coming up.
Although City have had the week off basically so I cant explain that one. If the pressed us at all I think we were in trouble
Not OleOUTers - they'll use anything to shaft the manager with.
 

Brwned

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Quite sure when the commentator or Gary said they are "ambling" at the 80 minute mark, they followed it up to say that's what happens when games come thick and fast, especially with United who travelled on Tuesday and came back a couple days ago.
He spent the whole game talking about how low energy it was with explicit disbelief. As if City's constant rotation and quick passing can happen without players being close to their physical peaks. And in the build up to games people have just been talking about it as any other season, laughing off Guardiola's criticisms as just whining. I wonder if they're being discouraged from talking about it because the broadcasters are the ones who've set the timetables and they're clearly not aligned with the players' best interests, nor do they create the platform for the best football. It's just short-term commercial decisions.
 

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Been on the cards and I think everybody - not necessarily here; more the fa and media - were putting their heads in the sands to expect normal performances this year.

I think already some of our poorer performances can be attributed to fatigue, especially given the short break from last year.

The lack of fans too must play a huge role as there'll be less adrenaline flying around their adrenal medullas.

Plus, you know, Covid being shit for everybody's wellbeing. Rich robot footballer or normal office drone.

And yet the managers don't opt to fully utilise all the subs available to them.
Absolutely fair criticism. Seems really odd.
 

VP89

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He spent the whole game talking about how low energy it was with explicit disbelief. And in the build up to games people have just been talking about it as any other season, laughing off Guardiola's criticisms as just whining. I wonder if they're being discouraged from talking about it because the broadcasters are the ones who've set the timetables and they're clearly not aligned with the players' best interests, nor do they create the platform for the best football. It's just short-term commercial decisions.
To be clear, the game wasn't playing out in a boring manner because both teams were tired. City have been quite toothless all season and we were too cowardly to capitalize at any given moment. Our lack of energy and press goes over the past year, not for this season and City were happy to keep it cautious.

I don't think anyone is discounting the effect tiredness has on games, but there was a bigger factor pointing toward tiredness. I saw more bite and runs in behind players in Leicester vs City, or Liverpool vs Leicester, or even Chelsea vs Spurs and all of these teams play in Europe.

The only other game I can point to which was as boring as this was United v Chelsea and even United v Arsenal. The consistency being it's us at OT.

The opposite number will always be happy to stay cautious if we are happy not to go at them. City got the better chance today and Arsenal took their only chance versus us. That is the consistency and the driving point - not tiredness. Ole has had set us out to not chase 3 points when facing bigger teams at home. His tactics are actually far more cowardly than people understand.
 

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Tiredness? Shame that we didn't buy a new midfielder this summer then. That could have come in handy in games like this, given that we have 5 fecking subs to make.
 

Brwned

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Been on the cards and I think everybody - not necessarily here; more the fa and media - were putting their heads in the sands to expect normal performances this year.

I think already some of our poorer performances can be attributed to fatigue, especially given the short break from last year.

The lack of fans too must play a huge role as there'll be less adrenaline flying around their adrenal medullas.

Plus, you know, Covid being shit for everybody's wellbeing. Rich robot footballer or normal office drone.



Absolutely fair criticism. Seems really odd.
Yeah it might well be the adrenaline hit that's playing the biggest role at the moment. They're just having to work that much harder to reach their limits. You'd wonder if playing in bigger stadiums that feel much more empty and echo-y sap a bit of extra energy on top.

To be clear, the game wasn't playing out in a boring manner because both teams were tired. City have been quite toothless all season and we were too cowardly to capitalize at any given moment. Our lack of energy and press goes over the past year, not for this season and City were happy to keep it cautious.

I don't think anyone is discounting the effect tiredness has on games, but there was a bigger factor pointing toward tiredness. I saw more bite and runs in behind players in Leicester vs City, or Liverpool vs Leicester, or even Chelsea vs Spurs and all of these teams play in Europe.
Thanks for being clear.
 

VP89

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Yeah it might well be the adrenaline hit that's playing the biggest role at the moment. They're just having to work that much harder to reach their limits. You'd wonder if playing in bigger stadiums that feel much more empty and echo-y sap a bit of extra energy on top.



Thanks for being clear.
I'm not trying to patronise there, but I think our lack of fight is more than just an empty stadium and tiredness. There is a tactical problem and Ole's refusal to make changes or take risks points to the real issue.
 

Ludens the Red

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Why are the pundits acting like this isn't a thing? Guardiola, Klopp, Ole, etc. have all said from the very beginning that their players will either have to push themselves past their limits and get injured more often, or they'll have to play more conservatively to get through the non-stop 3 games a week for club and international matches.

It's obvious that Guardiola's high intensity passing and Klopp's high intensity pressing depends on having fresh legs and minds too. Yet the pundits are just pretending this is any other normal season and they're wondering why people are ambling about after 80 minutes. Given so many of them are ex-pros, it seems a bit strange.

You have to wonder what state the players will be in after the Christmas period because the ones who play at full pace, people like Bruno, just look like they're going to run themselves into the ground.
Well on MNF last week there was a piece FACTUALLY disproving that teams were having less rest and playing more games.
I was shocked by it to be honest.

What I would say is Klopp, Pep and Mourinho in particular can’t really complain too much based on their use of rotation and subs. Ole it’s slightly different as we had a hard group and our bench isn’t as strong and we rely massively on individuals.
They have the most resources out of anyone and had piss easy European groups yet Liverpool and Spurs have been playing stupidly strong teams in Europe even once they’ve qualified.
Liverpool and city have used 2 or less subs for a number of their CL games too despite whinging about the lack of five subs in the prem.
City sent out a first team away to Burnley reserves in the Cup.
Even today in the Derby, where were the subs by either team? It’s not as if either team was playing well.

Bottom line even if it was an issue, the managers themselves are doing feck all to improve the situation.
I’ll add that these managers can’t come on tv shouting at presenters and pundits about kick off times and too many games when they themselves don’t do anywhere near enough to fully utilise their squads.
 

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Quality of football has been lowering for a few years. The overall state of the game is so robotic and tactical that games end up being dour.

This season will just enhance it due to the schedule. The games over Christmas will be a fecking mess
 

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Which leads me to squad depth.

Most benches this season are dreadful. Bayern have a good one... Tottenham is ok
 

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To be clear, the game wasn't playing out in a boring manner because both teams were tired. City have been quite toothless all season and we were too cowardly to capitalize at any given moment. Our lack of energy and press goes over the past year, not for this season and City were happy to keep it cautious.

I don't think anyone is discounting the effect tiredness has on games, but there was a bigger factor pointing toward tiredness. I saw more bite and runs in behind players in Leicester vs City, or Liverpool vs Leicester, or even Chelsea vs Spurs and all of these teams play in Europe.

The only other game I can point to which was as boring as this was United v Chelsea and even United v Arsenal. The consistency being it's us at OT.

The opposite number will always be happy to stay cautious if we are happy not to go at them. City got the better chance today and Arsenal took their only chance versus us. That is the consistency and the driving point - not tiredness. Ole has had set us out to not chase 3 points when facing bigger teams at home. His tactics are actually far more cowardly than people understand.
Nah. That’s nonsense. Been lots of flat performances from big teams this season. Not just us.
 

VP89

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Nah. That’s nonsense. Been lots of flat performances from big teams this season. Not just us.
I never denied that. I said we are approaching games more cautiously than other teams are. Today was certainly a cautious approach, and I can't think of many games (if any) where I've actually seen us press high and press well in the league, despite doing it on occasion in Europe.

From memory, only Southampton serves as one such game where our agreession and intent was on point. Whilst other teams are also flat on occasion, it's happening more frequently with us.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I never denied that. I said we are approaching games more cautiously than other teams are. Today was certainly a cautious approach, and I can't think of many games (if any) where I've actually seen us press high and press well in the league, despite doing it on occasion in Europe.

From memory, only Southampton serves as one such game where our agreession and intent was on point. Whilst other teams are also flat on occasion, it's happening more frequently with us.
We actually pressed them high and well today. Just too slow in transition through midfield and lacking quality up front (our usual flaws)
 

VP89

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We actually pressed them high and well today. Just too slow in transition through midfield and lacking quality up front (our usual flaws)
I would like to look at the stat to these, what I saw is that we hardly pressed on the front foot anywhere near as much as we should have. I stated this at half time, citing Greenwood and Rashford as examples where we didn't hunt them down and a couple people agreed at the time.

The last 20 minutes were particularly bleak, maybe that can be tiredness. But even if you point to tiredness it goes back to my prime annoyance at the game - Ole didn't set out to try and change the game and inject some energy. For example the introduction of VDB wasn't exactly a high risk move, but he just let the game drift by as City pegged us back for the final quarter of the game.
 

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I feel like football should be 10v10, to have more space and dribbles, football looks like handball now, where you just pass endlessly to get someone penetrating in the wing
 

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Ole was rallying for 5 subs yet makes one sub in the 74th minute when many players looked dead on their feet.
 

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We actually pressed them high and well today. Just too slow in transition through midfield and lacking quality up front (our usual flaws)
The problem with our pressing is that we don't press as a team and as a result it just saps energy from the players that does it while exposing holes for the opposing team to exploit because everyone's reacting to what's happening instead of being proactive.

Other teams have players pressing and the others moving up to cover the holes and leaving the furthest opponent free because a long ball to him would end up in a lost possession most of the time.
 

RedBanker

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Ole was rallying for 5 subs yet makes one sub in the 74th minute when many players looked dead on their feet.
Tbh he has said a lot of things in the past two years which he hasn't practiced. The man is consistent that way.
 

kundalini

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Why are the pundits acting like this isn't a thing? Guardiola, Klopp, Ole, etc. have all said from the very beginning that their players will either have to push themselves past their limits and get injured more often, or they'll have to play more conservatively to get through the non-stop 3 games a week for club and international matches.

It's obvious that Guardiola's high intensity passing and Klopp's high intensity pressing depends on having fresh legs and minds too. Yet the pundits are just pretending this is any other normal season and they're wondering why people are ambling about after 80 minutes. Given so many of them are ex-pros, it seems a bit strange.

You have to wonder what state the players will be in after the Christmas period because the ones who play at full pace, people like Bruno, just look like they're going to run themselves into the ground.
Good post.

I suspect that while the pundits understand that today's players run further than those of say 10 years ago, they don't always keep it in mind when doing their analysis.

The analysis we tend to get on TV focuses on micro-events. Only rarely do they explore the choices managers make for medium and long term benefit, though with the risk of short term cost. How often do you hear a pundit explain that while a strategy/tactic has cost a team a goal, or possibly points today, it is likely to benefit them over the course of the season ?

So much of what has happened this season is due to the physical aspects of the game. United's short pre-season resulted in us being uncompetitive in the early games. Teams are having to make decisions about when to use their energy; an intense press in the first half can leave sides will little energy to survive the final 20 mins of the match. United's matches against Southampton and West Ham were extreme examples of this.

Players with too few mins appear to find it difficult to cope with the speed of the game. Players who start too often are exhausted.

Managers will need to expand the size of their core group of players that feature often. That will be a challenge for Solskjaer as he has demonstrated a strong preference for continuity in selection.

At the end of the season we will probably have a better idea of which managers made wise choices during these challenging circumstances.

Other posters in this thread have mentioned van de Beek not being used against City. So far he has made 1 key pass in 212 mins in the PL this season, a shot from Bruno Fernandes from outside the box in the 92 minute against Newcastle with the score at 1-3, the expected assist value being 0.05. The chances of him opening up a cautious City defence were slim to say the least. Even so, bringing him on for Pogba was an option that probably doesn't impact our defensive structure too much.

Ideally, we would have had a fit Cavani on the bench to swap for Rashford for the final 20 mins, or perhaps to start the match instead. I was surprised Solskjaer didn't make use of Matic in the 2nd half, as Fred performed as if his hip never recovered from the contact early on.
 
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Brwned

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The amount of excuses fans like to make...


This.


This.
I think the people who've been camped in the football forums during this Ole in / out period have a very different perception of completely normal footy discussions. Everything is somehow interpreted through that prism of "is this an indirect defence or criticism of our team?".

I wasn't defending United. I couldn't care less about that dichotomy. United are not a very good team at the moment. They are not a high energy team at the best of times. Yet we were more high energy than City, and top teams pioe City have looked "out of sorts" more often than normal. And they look tired.

It was put in the football forum because it was a discussion point about all football teams this season. They are clearing facing a level of tiredness they aren't used to, and it'll be interesting to see what carries them through the Christmas period without adrenaline fuelling crowds.
 

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Why didn't Ole make more subs then if players were tired ? He cannot have it both ways
wanted to keep the shape. Why didn’t Pep? The usual bleaters will call him a coward but would be crying for trophy king “Poch” if going for a winner with tired legs left us open. Big picture. Management. Neither wanted to risk it and throw away a point as well as morale and of course, “energy”. Welcome to modern football.

and ffs, can we stop this 3 fecking games a week Bollox? If it happens, it is almost invariably followed by one game the following week - nothing has changed in decades. It works out at 2 games per week. The day just varies.
 
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Godfather

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We actually pressed them high and well today. Just too slow in transition through midfield and lacking quality up front (our usual flaws)
We didn't Pogue. Not as a unit. We aren't even capable of it. Our "press" consists of one or two players running themselves silly at the player in possession. Mostly Greenwood and Bruno today. Been like this for years.
 

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Why are the pundits acting like this isn't a thing? Guardiola, Klopp, Ole, etc. have all said from the very beginning that their players will either have to push themselves past their limits and get injured more often, or they'll have to play more conservatively to get through the non-stop 3 games a week for club and international matches.

It's obvious that Guardiola's high intensity passing and Klopp's high intensity pressing depends on having fresh legs and minds too. Yet the pundits are just pretending this is any other normal season and they're wondering why people are ambling about after 80 minutes. Given so many of them are ex-pros, it seems a bit strange.

You have to wonder what state the players will be in after the Christmas period because the ones who play at full pace, people like Bruno, just look like they're going to run themselves into the ground.
I don't think it's a particularly interesting point to discuss (by poundits on tv/ in articles), I mean you can see low intensity games every round so it would be boring to bring that up every week. I made a point in another thread that it might be a strategy where we are happy with a draw against top sides as long as we don't get tired and avoid injuries. I really don't think it's just us being shit. Yesterday both teams looked happy with the result. It was a Manchester Derby and there were only two yellow cards, you don't see that too often.

I don't think pundits are pretending it's a normal season, they just focus on other aspects which are more interesting for viewers.
Ole was rallying for 5 subs yet makes one sub in the 74th minute when many players looked dead on their feet.
Many players like who? I can only think of Bruno, who was the only one actually running. The rest seemed to be in energy saving mode.
The analysis we tend to get on TV focuses on micro-events. Only rarely do they explore the choices managers make for medium and long term benefit, though with the risk of short term cost. How often do you hear a pundit explain that while a strategy/tactic has cost a team a goal, or possibly points today, it is likely to benefit them over the course of the season ?
Good point.
Managers will need to expand the size of their core group of players that feature often. That will be a challenge for Solskjaer as he has demonstrated a strong preference for continuity in selection.

Ideally, we would have had a fit Cavani on the bench to swap for Rashford for the final 20 mins, or perhaps to start the match instead. I was surprised Solskjaer didn't make use of Matic in the 2nd half, as Fred performed as if his hip never recovered from the contact early on.
Sorry to cut your post, I agree with most of it but I'd like to focus on that bit. I am not sure if Ole has a preference for continuity in selection. This applies to defense, which I believe is a good tactic, and Bruno, who is basically a must-have in a team. We've played in many different midfield setups this season using all of Fred, Matic, McTominay, van de Beek to a lesser extent (but I believe we will see a lot more of him in the coming weeks) and Pogba due to different reasons. In attack I believe his hands were tied, no choice really - first Greenwood had some issues and was left out, then Martial god red card, Cavani wasn't fit and is injured again. The only player who is consistently picked is the only one who's been available for all games. So I disagree that Ole has a preference for continuity in selection as we don't even know what would be his preffered setup/team selection.

We didn't Pogue. Not as a unit. We aren't even capable of it. Our "press" consists of one or two players running themselves silly at the player in possession. Mostly Greenwood and Bruno today. Been like this for years.
I believe you can only press as a team when each player knows when to move and who to harass. We don't have a settled first team formation so it'll be difficult to learn that. Yesterday it seemed like our pressing was doing something only to City keeper so we shouldn't be wasting too much energy on that anyway IMO.
 

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Not really good time to make this thread, considering Pep and Ole used just one sub yesterday. And don't forget that both of those mangers insisted on 5 sub rule for this season, so it's even more laughable(not dig towards OP, but the managers) and despite having quite quality options on the bench they were obviously quite happy with the result and used just 12 players respectively.

Not having the balls to use marginal players is also another thing to be counted on, neither of top team managers seem great when he has to rotate and use lesser players in first XI.
 

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wanted to keep the shape. Why didn’t Pep? The usual bleaters will call him a coward but would be crying for trophy king “Poch” if going for a winner with tired legs left us open. Big picture. Management. Neither wanted to risk it and throw away a point as well as morale and of course, “energy”. Welcome to modern football.

and ffs, can we stop this 3 fecking games a week Bollox? If it happens, it is almost invariably followed by one game the following week - nothing has changed in decades. It works out at 2 games per week. The day just varies.
I don't care about Pep tbh. My focus is on Utd and I don't get what the rest of your post is on about. Just quote the members you're refering to when you say "the usual bleaters".
I believe replacing a very tired Bruno with VDB wouldn't have altered the shape in anyway or even Rashford instead Greenwood. If the intent was to not win nor lose then playing them the whole match when they're vital parts of our attack, wasn't necessary
 

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I believe you can only press as a team when each player knows when to move and who to harass. We don't have a settled first team formation so it'll be difficult to learn that. Yesterday it seemed like our pressing was doing something only to City keeper so we shouldn't be wasting too much energy on that anyway IMO.
Which is why I said we aren't capable of it.

Also I don't think it has anything to with a settled first team. Put out anyone from that Liverpool squad and they still play their football. We just have no clue how a proper press works or simply don't want to use one
 

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Which is why I said we aren't capable of it.

Also I don't think it has anything to with a settled first team. Put out anyone from that Liverpool squad and they still play their football. We just have no clue how a proper press works or simply don't want to use one
Well I agree, no doubt about that. But we don't even have a settled formation, which makes this even more difficult IMO. For example, every time we play so-called-negative double pivot with Fred and McTominay, it seems to me like we can actually press the opposition (to some extent).

I might be wrong but whenever I see Liverpool or City, they seem to have a prefered midfield setup, which we don't.
 

Brwned

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Why does this excuse only get used for us? We’re not exactly an urgently pressing team are we.
I guess you didn't read the thread because it isn't an excuse nor does it apply to United exclusively. City are a high pressing team at their best but haven't been all season, and their manager has explained why. If you want a different example from yesterday, look at Dortmund. In the previous decade they conceded 5 or more goals twice, both against Bayern. Yesterday they lost 5-1 to Stuttgart. Bayern's first two games were an 8-0 win and a 4-1 loss, their biggest win and worst loss in the league in at least a decade, back-to-back. I guess I don't need to list the unusual PL results. I don't think you had to strain your eyes to see Dortmund's energy struggles, and of course they are a high energy team at their best.

Unusual things happen every now and then but it seems odd to me to act like the unusual circumstances aren't a reason for those unusual results. The idea that players wouldn't be tired under the circumstances, despite their managers stating long before the tiredness kicked into effect that it is an inevitability, is a bit of a wild claim if you think about it. You'd have to have some good evidence to explain such a counter-intuitive theory.
 

klayton88

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Many players like who? I can only think of Bruno, who was the only one actually running. The rest seemed to be in energy saving mode.
'Energy saving mode? In a derby that is 0-0? Jesus christ.
 

klayton88

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I don't get your point?

Anyway, I asked you which "many players" looked dead on their feet, because it certainly didn't occur to me (other than Bruno).
Fred was about 50% from a knock in the first half. Rashford stopped making runs. We had a full bench.