To those against Mourinho...

[mancan92]

Why did you bother to reply if you couldn't even get it? I said you have a dead right flank and a shit defence and not only do you 'expect' to be entertained you expect a manager who believes good defence is paramount to success, yet his defence is largely shit, to 'give it to you'? Where the feck do you expect to get entertained from in that scenario? Or you'd rather he opened up like Klopp, we do noting but attack only down the left flank, and get tonked by half the league as they find out out one trick pony act out? Is that more agreeable to you?

Yeah I genuinely believe if Jose got us attacking like Liverpool last season with Henderson, lovern, Milner, wijnaldum, Chamberlain etc. People including myself would be happy as it would show a set plan and idea for the future and we could see something to genuinely build towards. If it meant losing a few by big scores then fine because we'd also win a few by big scores.

They did it with a shit defensive and midfield

 

[Stubble]

Loosing Rui Faria seems to have affected Jose badly current situation may not be a coincidence. I wonder if this is a bit of a Brian Clough/Peter Taylor situation. Not sure how long they worked together but wonder if there was an unsung influence behind the throne...

 

[humdinger]

Football fans and the media are knee-jerk. If he wins the next 8-10 games in a row, everyone will be creaming over him and his masterclasses.

The only way to shut up everyone is winning. Simple as.

Edit : this applies to every manager in the game.

Well, yes. If he wins the next 8-10 games in a row he will be applauded and rightly so. It would be a fantastic achievement at any time, let alone after our poor start.

The problem is a lot of people have no faith that this will happen, as he seems a shadow of the great manager he once was and this team is lacking in talent and depth in key areas. We aren’t anywhere near a top team just now and people are rightly frustrated by that.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Yeah I genuinely believe if Jose got us attacking like Liverpool last season with Henderson, lovern, Milner, wijnaldum, Chamberlain etc. People including myself would be happy as it would show a set plan and idea for the future and we could see something to genuinely build towards. If it meant losing a few by big scores then fine because we'd also win a few by big scores.

They did it with a shit defensive and midfield

Well that's fine. But I've never been on the "I'm happy were are losing entertainingly ' brigade. A reason I couldn't stand Wenger

 

[pre Munich Red]

Apologies if this has already been said -
1. No manager criticises his squad or individual players in public - praise or pick-out positively only.
2. While Fergie always said - ‘manager most important position in club’ - his behaviours actioned that culture - Mourinho fails.
3.Even in their darkest days, and their were many until Fergie eventually got going, Utd tried to play the game in the oppositions half or were pretty good onthe break - not now.
4. Utd used to score goals, lots of them, not any more.
5. Nothing coming through from Academy - or being allowed come through.
6. Bobby Charlton never warmed to the Mourinho appointment - sees him as a short term success chaser - no long term vision - being proven correct.
7. Utd fans want to win, but they want to win with class and excitement - Mourinho wants to win without class and excitement
8. China next stop for Mourinho - finished with the possibility of any more top club appointments in the big club league.
9. Good riddance to an immature, petulant brat.

 

[mancan92]

Well that's fine. But I've never been on the "I'm happy were are losing entertainingly ' brigade. A reason I couldn't stand Wenger

It's better than playing like crap and also losing.

One of the big problems at arsenal was that they didn't have a plan or strategy they no longer played entertaining football and the manager had no ideas left. That's completely different to Klopp at Liverpool for example.

 

[TrueRed79]

Right manager at the wrong time. Not entirely his fault as we are run by a bunch of chancers, and until they are gone we will always stumble from one shit show to the next. I'm not Jose's greatest fan, in terms of how his teams play football, but the way he's been treated makes me wish that he will turn things around, and stick it to all the media who have only been waiting for this to all come tumbling down. I don't think anyone around here would be one bit sad if he did manage to do that. It would be glorious if he did win a major trophy after all this. Can i realistically see that happening, no, and that's a shame. If we had better defenders we might have a slim chance, but they will be our downfall come the end of the season.

 

[Okey]

Jose is in his third season at United. By now the club should be firmly under his control. He's had lots to spend. And lots of time to work with those he already had. I've personally been calling for a change since last season. This preseason and season so far just reaffirm it. We have no clear identity, plan or direction going forward. That's an indictment on any manager at any club. Jose confirms he's happy with Valencia and Young as full backs, hence no real attempts to sign any immediate replacements. He rates Fellaini as being important to his team. He's melting down before our very eyes. I suppose we'll just wait for the inevitable. Like I've said a few times before, if there's obviously no future in the relationship, why no end it now and move on?
PS: Mr Woodward should get the boot too, at least on the football side of things. That inexplicable Jose contract extension is more than enough reason.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

I still think he’s the right man for the job

You know he fell out with Ronaldo right?

 

[The Irish Connection]

Right manager at the wrong time. Not entirely his fault as we are run by a bunch of chancers, and until they are gone we will always stumble from one shit show to the next. I'm not Jose's greatest fan, in terms of how his teams play football, but the way he's been treated makes me wish that he will turn things around, and stick it to all the media who have only been waiting for this to all come tumbling down. I don't think anyone around here would be one bit sad if he did manage to do that. It would be glorious if he did win a major trophy after all this. Can i realistically see that happening, no, and that's a shame. If we had better defenders we might have a slim chance, but they will be our downfall come the end of the season.

Pochetinno would be the only one who I could see doing better. He's used to making more out of tight budgets.

 

[The beautiful game]

Mourhino is the master of duplicity, he pre-empts things to put himself in a good light, like applauding fans - what we are seeing is Mourhino being found out as a sad 'emperor with no clothes on'.

 

[Okey]

I actually feel sad about the whole Mourinho issue. I think we simply got him at the wrong time. I was a huge fan in his hey day. Always rated him higher than Pep given the circumstances of their success. Sadly he's lost it now. Pale shadow of the former super motivator. It happens to many. Just one of those things. Might be Pep tomorrow.

 

[Briman63]

Yeah I genuinely believe if Jose got us attacking like Liverpool last season with Henderson, lovern, Milner, wijnaldum, Chamberlain etc. People including myself would be happy as it would show a set plan and idea for the future and we could see something to genuinely build towards. If it meant losing a few by big scores then fine because we'd also win a few by big scores.

They did it with a shit defensive and midfield

Liverpool had the best defensive record in the Prem from Oct 17 after we got beat by Spurs, from Feb we never conceded a goal at Anfield and still haven't, so what shit defence are you talking about ?.

 

[X0X Tan]

Net spending over 5 seasons

Man City 586m
Man Utd 501m
Liverpool 220m
Arsenal 256m
Chelsea 149m
Spurs 33m

Lacking of quality of players? Need to spend further? seriously? Give Mourinho another 85m to match Man city spending, possible to match Man city level?

 

[roonster09]

Liverpool had the best defensive record in the Prem from Oct 17 after we got beat by Spurs, from Feb we never conceded a goal at Anfield and still haven't, so what shit defence are you talking about ?.

No you don't. From Oct 17th to season end Liverpool conceded 26 goals, City conceded 23 goals.

From Oct 17th to till date, City conceded 25 goals.

Not sure with these arbitrary dates.

 

[fallengt]

Stop whining & improve what he has. Lindelof, Bailly, Sanchez, Lukaku are all his signings, he has no right to complain that they don't perform.
Pep's spent like crazy too but he's managed to make the most out of his players.

 

[Cal?]

You know he fell out with Ronaldo right?

Ronaldo doesn’t play for us.

If given a choice of Ronaldo or Mourinho, I’d pick Ronaldo.

 

[Briman63]

No you don't. From Oct 17th to season end Liverpool conceded 26 goals, City conceded 23 goals.

From Oct 17th to till date, City conceded 25 goals.

Not sure with these arbitrary dates.

Oct 2017 not the 17th.

 

[Zlatattack]

Net spending over 5 seasons

Man City 586m
Man Utd 501m
Liverpool 220m
Arsenal 256m
Chelsea 149m
Spurs 33m

Lacking of quality of players? Need to spend further? seriously? Give Mourinho another 85m to match Man city spending, possible to match Man city level?

Why limit to 5 years? Aguero, Silva, Kompany even Toure, key players in city's success were expensive purchases from before that. Our last title winning side was at the end of a cycle. We lost our best players. We lacked Decent investment for a decade.

The difference between us and city is that they replaced thier flops, we didn't. Darmian, Blind, Rojo, Adm, Depay, Schneiderlin all form a big part of £510 million.

 

[Minkaro]

To those against Jose, we salute you.

 

[Lentwood]

So if that is the case, why buy players who are arguably no better than you have? Is the suggestion he had those players forced on him? I'd be surprised if that was the case - especially early in his time at the club when they were shelling out big money on players in other positions. If those players were a gamble and if the defence was a priority then why not address that first and buy better quality?

City have spent more money - but other clubs have spent less and are getting more out of what they have and that, broadly is my point here. We're miles behind City and it may, in part be down to their huge spend, but it's also down to a great manager getting the best out of his players.

Do you think if Mourinho had spent the money City had we'd have won the league last year? Do you think Mourinho would have dominated the league with the squad Pep has?

I'm not saying these players were forced on Jose, I'm saying Jose has clearly been working against a relatively moderate budget (in the context of an 'elite' club in the current climate) and prioritised other players, namely Pogba and Lukaku

I very much doubt that if Jose could have had his pick of ANY two CBs in world football we would have ended up with these two, even IF they go on to be great players

In response to your questions on do I think Mourinho would have dominated with Pep's money - I am going with 'yes' because I have history on my side. Jose had a similar environment at Chelsea and virtually changed the landscape for Premier League football such was the total domination of his Chelsea team in the first couple of years of his management.

 

[Craig Ward]

I am not talking about the technical aspect of the game nor how we played.

My comment was for this:


I think most(at least) of the players did play for him and tried their best.

I disagree. I think the vast majority of our squad don't get on with the style of play/tactics we play.

How can any of our flair players enjoy life under Mourinho?

 

[RedRover]

I'm not saying these players were forced on Jose, I'm saying Jose has clearly been working against a relatively moderate budget (in the context of an 'elite' club in the current climate) and prioritised other players, namely Pogba and Lukaku

I very much doubt that if Jose could have had his pick of ANY two CBs in world football we would have ended up with these two, even IF they go on to be great players

In response to your questions on do I think Mourinho would have dominated with Pep's money - I am going with 'yes' because I have history on my side. Jose had a similar environment at Chelsea and virtually changed the landscape for Premier League football such was the total domination of his Chelsea team in the first couple of years of his management.

I think its hard to call a budget that allows £180 million on two players in a summer, plus wages to be "moderate" but perhaps that's where we disagree.

I disagree with the latter point but there we go. Whilst the bolded part is true, that was an age ago in footballing terms. He came into the PL with different ideas and nobody could keep up. His style hasn't changed all that much since then and for me, that's half the problem now. Other managers are coming through doing exactly what he did years ago - new ideas, new systems. The top managers have to continually re-invent the way their teams play and in my opinion he's struggling to do that here.

He has had success everywhere he's been so he is a serial winner. With the exception of Madrid (where he had a wealth of talent in a League which was a two horse race) he's done well at clubs where success over style was accepted. Chelsea and Inter couldn't have cared less about his tactics when he was winning titles. Here, the fans (and sections of the media), rightly, or wrongly expect more than that. With Pep over at City producing arguably the best football the PL has seen he's going to have to do something spectacular to turn it round.

Personally, I don't think giving Jose another £100 or £150 million this summer is a silver bullet to solve the problems. My view, pointing solely to money spent as against City masks the real issues. We don't look like a good side lacking one or two quality players - we look disjointed and players look either confused or unhappy.

And to talk about "history" - Jose has a problem of creating a cycle of negativity that seems to bring everyone down.

 

[SirAF]

I think its hard to call a budget that allows £180 million on two players in a summer, plus wages to be "moderate" but perhaps that's where we disagree.

I disagree with the latter point but there we go. Whilst the bolded part is true, that was an age ago in footballing terms. He came into the PL with different ideas and nobody could keep up. His style hasn't changed all that much since then and for me, that's half the problem now. Other managers are coming through doing exactly what he did years ago - new ideas, new systems. The top managers have to continually re-invent the way their teams play and in my opinion he's struggling to do that here.

He has had success everywhere he's been so he is a serial winner. With the exception of Madrid (where he had a wealth of talent in a League which was a two horse race) he's done well at clubs where success over style was accepted. Chelsea and Inter couldn't have cared less about his tactics when he was winning titles. Here, the fans (and sections of the media), rightly, or wrongly expect more than that. With Pep over at City producing arguably the best football the PL has seen he's going to have to do something spectacular to turn it round.

Personally, I don't think giving Jose another £100 or £150 million this summer is a silver bullet to solve the problems. My view, pointing solely to money spent as against City masks the real issues. We don't look like a good side lacking one or two quality players - we look disjointed and players look either confused or unhappy.

And to take about "history" - Jose has a problem of creating a cycle of negativity that seems to bring everyone down.

Madrid is a complicated chapter, but do remember that Real had gone three seasons without winning the league and had not reached the QFs in the CL since 2004 (!) before Mourinho came and guided them to three consecutive SFs while winning the league once.

 

[kerryman]

Pochetinno would be the only one who I could see doing better. He's used to making more out of tight budgets.

What about Bielsa? I think Leeds have done well picking him up, he has them playing really good football already, exactly the type of football most fans are crying out for.

 

[RedRover]

Madrid is a complicated chapter, but do remember that Real had gone three seasons without winning the league and had not reached the QFs in the CL since 2004 (!) before Mourinho came and guided them to three consecutive SFs while winning the league once.

Indeed. As I said, he's a winner, and he obviously did very well there. It

 

[The Irish Connection]

What about Bielsa? I think Leeds have done well picking him up, he has them playing really good football already, exactly the type of football most fans are crying out for.

Haven't watched them to be honest, but will have a look at the game tonight.

 

[Shark]

Madrid is a complicated chapter, but do remember that Real had gone three seasons without winning the league and had not reached the QFs in the CL since 2004 (!) before Mourinho came and guided them to three consecutive SFs while winning the league once.

Not undermining Jose’ achievements at Madrid, he did very well, but it must be known that the difference between having a peak Ronaldo among others, and Lukaku, the current Sanchez and whoever the hell is on our right wing these days, is night and day.

 

[devilish]

I don't understand his critics. First they criticised him for being defensive which is fair enough as many have no idea of what's going on under the scenes. Then he asks for defenders and he get criticised for it because according to them our defenders are decent since we've got a great defensive track record. Then the club turns that down, Mou ends up playing attacking minded football, the defense collapsed like a castle of sand because of it and instead of saying that he's right, that our CB are truly shit and that Mou was right all along. We criticise him more.

Some say that Mou had brought 2 CBs which is true. However we seem to forget that the other two CBs were brought by SAF and he doesn't get criticised for it. Which is fair enough since young defenders are unpredictable. With all his great track record, SAF was able to find 3 WC CBs in all his managerial career, 2 of which he broke the world record for defenders for them. He also had the cheek to go for Rio for 30m and that after criticising Leeds for spending 18m on him and claiming that Wes was better then him. Managers aren't infallible and finding top CBs isn't simple at all.

So instead of blaming Mourinho, lets have a look at our track record in the past decade or so. Which include

a- SAF FAILING to build his 4th great side
b- Moyes failing big time
c- LVG failing big time
d- Mou is failing big time

So how come that not 1, not 2 but 3 top managers had failed? Could it be that maybe, just maybe, its not the manager's fault after all?

 

[wolvored]

The way we have changed managers since Fergie is very similar to what happened after Sir Matt Busby retired. He left a team full of ageing stars and recommended Wilf McGuiness as his successor. Similar to Fergie recommending Moyes. We then went through managers in quick succession like Frank O'Farrell, Tommy Docherty Dave Sexton and finally Ron Atkinson who was sacked for non-football related reasons, until we stumbled on Fergie. He was not particularly successful in his first five years and was quite close to being sacked, but then, as the Premier League started, his work began to bare fruit and the rest is history. A lot of the above shows we were no better at management selection back in the day but we got lucky eventually, very lucky!!! We are probably going through the same process again and no one knows how lucky or how soon we will find the right man.

Docherty sacked for non footballing not atkinson

 

[wolvored]

I don't understand his critics. First they criticised him for being defensive which is fair enough as many have no idea of what's going on under the scenes. Then he asks for defenders and he get criticised for it because according to them our defenders are decent since we've got a great defensive track record. Then the club turns that down, Mou ends up playing attacking minded football, the defense collapsed like a castle of sand because of it and instead of saying that he's right, that our CB are truly shit and that Mou was right all along. We criticise him more.

Some say that Mou had brought 2 CBs which is true. However we seem to forget that the other two CBs were brought by SAF and he doesn't get criticised for it. Which is fair enough since young defenders are unpredictable. With all his great track record, SAF was able to find 3 WC CBs in all his managerial career, 2 of which he broke the world record for defenders for them. He also had the cheek to go for Rio for 30m and that after criticising Leeds for spending 18m on him and claiming that Wes was better then him. Managers aren't infallible and finding top CBs isn't simple at all.

So instead of blaming Mourinho, lets have a look at our track record in the past decade or so. Which include

a- SAF FAILING to build his 4th great side
b- Moyes failing big time
c- LVG failing big time
d- Mou is failing big time

So how come that not 1, not 2 but 3 top managers had failed? Could it be that maybe, just maybe, its not the manager's fault after all?

FFS you cannot be serious with adding fergie in with them lot? We were finishing virtually1st or 2nd every season until he retired. In fact his last season won the league by 11 points if I remember correctly. Any of the others had fergies last 2 years as their stint here we would be hailing them great managers for us

 

[devilish]

FFS you cannot be serious with adding fergie in with them lot? We were finishing virtually1st or 2nd every season until he retired. In fact his last season won the league by 11 points if I remember correctly. Any of the others had fergies last 2 years as their stint here we would be hailing them great managers for us

Of course I do although if you read my post you'll know that I'm not criticising SAF at all. Towards the end of SAF's reign, United took a strategy were top players were either kept beyond their expiry date OR replaced by players with far less talent. The likes of Rio, Vidic, Ronaldo, Giggs and Scholes were systematically replaced by the likes of Jones, Smalling, Valencia, Young and Cleverley. After that all our managers had complained that they weren't backed adequately in one way or another.

Now either there's something in our water which is driving top managers mad, people btw who won in Spain, England, Holland, Italy and Scotland. Else the problem has nothing to do with the manager or at least they aren't the main problem.

 

[Le Red]

Answering the thread's main question: a wise man once said that foolishness is to keep doing the same thing hoping they will produce different results.
For me to trust Mourinho, he'd have to adress his shortcomings, improve his relationship with players and management, and evolve his tactics which are clearly not taylored for the way football has been played lately in the world and the EPL.
Instead, he feels like a broken record nowadays. Whatever his defects are, they got the best of him, and the qualities that made him a winning manager are nowhere to be seem.
I don't think everything that's going wrong are Mourinho's fault. However, the signs are there for everyone to see that he's not up to what I consider the biggest challenge in club football right now.

 

[Bestofthebest]

Docherty sacked for non footballing not atkinson[/QUOT

Yes, noticed that as soon as I had posted so let it go. Knew some one would pull me on it. Tommy was sacked for having an affair with physio's wife. Still believe rest of what I wrote is correct.

 

[Colombian Mancunian]

Win an FA Cup, challenge for the PL until the end, and get to CL semis.

 

[wolvored]

To 'Bestofthebest'
Everything else was

 

[Ekeke]

I don't get the idea of being "against Mourinho"

What does that mean exactly?

I'm not at all convinced by him. I don't think he sets us up in an organized manner, I don't agree with his selections, I don't agree with a lot of our signings while hes been in charge. I don't like his manner at times like when he has criticized our players, often ones doing better than some of his favourites.

But I'm not against him. I just don't have confidence in him producing a team that is as enjoyable to watch as we have been in the past and neither do I think he'll lead us to major trophies to make up for that.

If I met him I'd be polite. If he produces an enjoyable team that wins the title or champions league I'll give him credit. But I cant lie and say I like his style.

I'm not against Mourinho, I just dont believe in him.

 

[FootyGirl88]

I don't get the idea of being "against Mourinho"

What does that mean exactly?

I'm not at all convinced by him. I don't think he sets us up in an organized manner, I don't agree with his selections, I don't agree with a lot of our signings while hes been in charge. I don't like his manner at times like when he has criticized our players, often ones doing better than some of his favourites.

But I'm not against him. I just don't have confidence in him producing a team that is as enjoyable to watch as we have been in the past and neither do I think he'll lead us to major trophies to make up for that.

If I met him I'd be polite. If he produces an enjoyable team that wins the title or champions league I'll give him credit. But I cant lie and say I like his style.

I'm not against Mourinho, I just dont believe in him.

I agree, this is how I feel.

 

[lysglimt]

I don't get the idea of being "against Mourinho"

What does that mean exactly?

I'm not at all convinced by him. I don't think he sets us up in an organized manner, I don't agree with his selections, I don't agree with a lot of our signings while hes been in charge. I don't like his manner at times like when he has criticized our players, often ones doing better than some of his favourites.

But I'm not against him. I just don't have confidence in him producing a team that is as enjoyable to watch as we have been in the past and neither do I think he'll lead us to major trophies to make up for that.

If I met him I'd be polite. If he produces an enjoyable team that wins the title or champions league I'll give him credit. But I cant lie and say I like his style.

I'm not against Mourinho, I just dont believe in him.

More or less how I feel. If Mourinho could get his team to perform regularly like they did against Burnley - we wouldnt be having this debate. But I have a bad feeling that the Watford-game could be another Brighton

 

[sunama]

What a moronic question, as if these are the only two options available to Mourinho. And he’s not even achieving the latter anyway.

It was not moronic, because that's what actually happened.
Our team is pretty good at parking the bus. This was demonstrated last season, because we did it quite effectively against many teams.
This season we played Spurs with an attacking intent and got beat 3-0.

From the last 2 years, it appears that against top 6 rivals, parking the bus is the option which Jose has chosen and in fairness, I believe he is a better manager and judge of player ability than most posters on here.

Personally, I'd go for the result as we need to win the title at any cost and Woodward doesn't seem bothered.