Messi hasn't been that influential on how the game is played. His superior individual ability doesnt his influence on the tactics of football were greater than Cryuff or Beckenbauer. Messi is essentially Cryuff's lovechild. He perfected the false nr 9. Role. Cryuff was a greater leader though and more if a total footballer. Srill not better than Messi though.
Top 10 greatest players of all time
- Thread starter tentan
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I would agree. But i feel the same of Maldini. I guess people want some midfielders and defenders in there because forwards tend to top the list.
Won’t somebody please think of the goalkeepers 
Anyway, I don’t know my list and I’m sure it would change daily but from an overall view, I think the top 3 is set with Maradona, Pele and Messi.
Personal preference would make up the rest of my list rather than data/stats and whatnot.
Anyway, I don’t know my list and I’m sure it would change daily but from an overall view, I think the top 3 is set with Maradona, Pele and Messi.
Personal preference would make up the rest of my list rather than data/stats and whatnot.
Only been following football since late 90's so going with players I've seen:
- Messi
- Ronaldo
- C Ronaldo
- Maldini
- Neuer
- Henry
- Zidane
- Xavi
- Rooney
- Nesta
When a Dutch coach wins the Premier League or a Dutch Coach or team win a World Cup, you can have your day in the sun until that time, ETH like the current state of Dutch football is currently miles behind French, Argentinian, Brazilian, English and Portuguese football!
The Dutch national team is currently awful, the national league only marginal better than the Scottish premier league and arrogant coaches like ETH completely devoid of how to run a big club in the modern era. Losing is now a way of life and it’s always ; “we played well but my team was very unlucky!”
How about your not actually very good and bar VVD and FDJ don’t have very good players and your coaches are even worse, rapidly considered over arrogant, over self important and actually not very good.
LVG was good (hope he gets well soon) but yesterday’s man, ETH (Fraud), Ronald Koeman( Fraud Barcelona?), Dick Advocaat, Rene Meulensteen, Martin Jol, Gus Hiddink(was Great like LVG), Ruud Gullit and who can forget the exceptional Frank De Boer at Palace. None of them have won a PL, none of them have even got over 80 points in the PL, enfact barLVG has any Dutch coach won an Scudetto, La Liga or Bundersliga in the last decade ?
On that exhalted list of Top 10 players of all time only Johan Cruyff would merit a place, because it’s not just ability, it’s how you defined and changed the game plus how many major trophies you won. Three European Cups makes Cruyff a legend that deserves a place in the top 10, no other Dutch players should be in the conversation, Van Bastan and Gullit would be in the next list 11-25 positions.
You my friend are as deluded as many of your current Dutch coaches that still think 433 is the Dutch way, invented by them and given to the world when In 1966, England won the World Cup playing with exactly the same formation and the so called total football where Bobby Moore Stepped into midfield, and Bobby Charlton was a hybrid 8/10 who was the play maker.
Yeah Best maybe had 1-2 seasons of Messi level football, Messi has had 10-15. Ultimately I think Best as talented as he was, didn’t do it long enough at an elite level to be top 10 of all time. There’s no shame in that, it’s the best players ever who all have almost perfect careers.
1. Messi
2. Pele
3. Maradona
4. Cristiano Ronaldo
5. Cruyff
6. Di Stefano
7. Beckenbauer
After that, it’s take your pick from about 10-15 players for 8-10 I feel, could change my opinion every day.
1. He didn’t. Sindelar, Hidegkuti, Cruyff, Laudrup — that’s just the most high-profile false 9s that had shined in that role from the 1930s to the 1990s
2. He didn’t play like Pirlo. And you’ve already had those incredible all-rounded all-time greats like Di Stéfano, Cruyff, Beckenbauer that literally did everything that you want from a footballer (all of whom were way more all-rounded than Messi). And if you want Pirlo + Müller, look no further than Platini, who would spend the majority of the game roughly in the same zone as Pirlo did only to turn up and score a tap in when the right moment came (and did it about 30 times per season at his peak)
edit: of course, Invi did it (and better) already
I think you need to relax.
With the exception of Pele, players I saw:
Top 3 in this order
Maradona
Pele
Messi
Then the rest as they come to mind
Fat Ronaldo
Fit Ronaldo
Maldini
Baresi
Zidane
Xavi
Iniesta
Top 3 in this order
Maradona
Pele
Messi
Then the rest as they come to mind
Fat Ronaldo
Fit Ronaldo
Maldini
Baresi
Zidane
Xavi
Iniesta
I disagree with this assertion so much I'm tempted to assume you're just trolling. Zidane and Best above Messi is nonsense. Messi received plenty of rough treatment. Ever see Pepe and Ramos defending? Also, Messi had to contend with far more physically capable players than in previous eras. Defenders of the last 20 years are far faster and fitter than anyone Best would haver come up against.
For the longest time I thought Maldini was considered the best defender ever whereas since his passing and in threads such as these it seems Beckenbauer is much more highly regarded.
I don't think you have to introduce completely new things to change football. I think it is undisputed that Guardiola and Klopp changed football in the late 00s/early 10s but none of their concepts were totally new, it were just new takes on already existing (and once successful) ideas. In general, it will be hard to truly implement something completely unseen in a game that's been the most popular sport in the world for almost a century.
IMO, a player of Messi's status inevitably changes the game for the fact that he creates so many copy cats alone. I think the style of many players of the current generation would look a bit different without his influence.
Everyone knows that England world cup doesn't count, because the ball wasn't over the line for that one goal. Furthermore, all your success actually became our success when William the third ascended the English throne in 1689.
And lastly, we have Arne Slot.
I MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN ENTIRELY SERIOUS
I should really just stay in the general with my dumb sarcasm@KirkDuyt I think you've just been officially challenged to a dance off!
Beckenbauer is an odd one. Positionally, he was a defender but he was one of the very best playmakers in history. I'm not sure it was even possible for a defender to become as impactful as Beckenbauer since the sweeper position was abandoned. Players like Beckenbauer would have played as a CM or CAM in the last 40 years or so. But maybe we'll see a revival of the playing style, there are more and more dribbling and attacking minded CBs around these days.
Serves you right for leaving Jeremy Frimpong out of your listI should really just stay in the general with my dumb sarcasm
Messi is a better dribbler, goalscorer than all the names above including Di Stefano.
In terms of playmaking, many including me would put him above Cruyff or Platini. He is on the same planet as Maradona when it comes to creativity & playmaking.
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Beckenbauer is rarely on lists for defensive work, or at least defensive work on its own. The main debate revolving around Beckenbauer is whether he’d be better utilised in midfield than defence in modern parlance. It doesn’t matter whether he’s placed in the #4 or #6; he’s immediately the best, most technical player in the role and a cheat code to have, constantly manipulating the game from deep. He was also amazing as an #8, but he didn’t like the all-action graft and preferred to approach the game cerebrally wherever possible.
In a pure defenders conversation where nothing of technical skill or offensive contribution is considered, he is not top 5 for most and might struggle for top 10, but adding all of the offensive contribution and he is immediately paired with whoever you want or dropped into midfield ahead of them, basically with his place in the side being a no-brainer in a traditional sense.
I should really just stay in the general with my dumb sarcasm
Milan fans consider Baresi to be better than Maldini.
Maldini had a bit of hostility from a section of Milan fans though
I love Messi, but I do believe he's from a softer generation football wise. Fitness levels can only be judged on the time as well, if George Best made it as a footballer in the modern game he would never be exposed to alcohol in the way he was in the 60's. So based on that he'd be fitter and also better as he wouldn't have to showcase his brilliance against bone breaking defenders and football pitches made up of thick mud.
Also it's a personal list, I loved Zidane. He was head and shoulders ahead of all midfielders of his generation and for me an amazing player.
He does change the game, obviously, but to say that he was the first to introduce the concept of a false 9 is factually wrong, which is what the post that I replied to was saying. Same goes for the the supposed uniqueness of his goalscoring & playmaking — while he may be the most talented player to combine the two together, there were many all-time greats at least as complete as him in terms of combining the two together (and a few way, way more complete (not necessarily better) players).
The extent to which he had changed the game — in comparison to someone like Cruyff and Beckenbauer — is debatable. Personally if we were to single out one modern player who was the most influential in terms of the tactical development of the game, I'd name Xavi. If we were to pick one who had changed the perception of how his position is supposed to be played, that would probably be Neuer (or, maybe, one of the false fullbacks, but it's a bit early to tell). Messi, in many ways, is the antithesis of most trends that define modern football — and the more he grew in stature, the less he became comparable with modern tactical set ups (with all of his managers post-Guardiola having to adjust their systems to give Messi more freedom to do what he wants — and, to be fair, he did deliver).
As for the copycats... it's hard to copy a player who relies on his genius so much, hence why we don't see many players that look like his carbon copy. I'm sure that 9 out of 10 kids who play football try to emulate him but I'm yet to see this trend to translate to anything meaningful on a professional level. He is, undoubtedly, influential, like any player of his stature is, but to say that his influence transcends his talent would be an overstatement.
Messi
Pele
Maradona
C. Ronaldo
Cruyff
Beckenbauer
Bobby Charlton
L. Ronaldo
Best
Iniesta
Pele
Maradona
C. Ronaldo
Cruyff
Beckenbauer
Bobby Charlton
L. Ronaldo
Best
Iniesta
I don't think ive seen a Messi copy cat. Sure players can hope to hone the basics to an insane degree like Messi but ultimately Messi like Maradonna just had a gift.
R9 made stepovers popular, but to dribble as simply and effectively as Messi just seems impossible. And then you have score like the best strikers ever as well.
Tell you what we swap ETH for Tuchel then I would relax !
And you still need GB and the US in the Second World War to liberate yes so let’s say debt was repaid in kind for William the third. I bet he be a better manager of United than ETH!
I don't think we'll ever see anyone dribble quite as well as Messi did again
I cant remember if it was @Zehner or someone else who said Hazard is the closest to Messi without the goals. I'd say closest is sure the right word, him and neymar in the same era but not close.
It's to do with personalities though as much as anything. Stanley Matthews was tee-total and went on until he was nearly 50. Pele and Eusebio, and his team-mate Bobby Charlton were very professional in that era. Best had a love of fame and was a massive celebrity, he went AWOL a few times and was going to retire after falling out of love with the game.
I can't see why the same wouldn't happen in the modern game. Maybe not exposed to drinking as much but I could 100% see him get into the same partying lifestyle and maybe go down the influencer route and get distracted that way like Lingard, Pogba etc. There are also plenty of modern players who gave it up early like Bale, Hazard etc once they had their money made, or Ronaldinho drop a few levels. He had the vanity and looks and the women were all over him, he was weak for it. I don't think you transport Best into the current day and he turns into a Ronaldo-type mentality.
I'd start with the 6 guys who were massively influential in controlling and deciding games, in at least two of the three thirds of the park:
Tier 1 - Maradona, Messi and Pele
Tier 2 - Beckenabuer, Cruyff, Di Stefano
After that I'd say there are two ways to go. A third tier of the best of the rest - something like:
Tier 3 - Ronaldo, Muller, Cristiano, Xavi, Zico, Platini, Baresi, Maldini, Matthaus
Or you start to group by position, for example:
Obviously you can start to play with who goes where, and the categories can also be tweaked. But after the top 6 or so it starts to be difficult to compare, for instance, Baresi or Maldini with Muller.
I'm not totally comfortable with some of the distinctions. To give a few examples:
Tier 1 - Maradona, Messi and Pele
Tier 2 - Beckenabuer, Cruyff, Di Stefano
After that I'd say there are two ways to go. A third tier of the best of the rest - something like:
Tier 3 - Ronaldo, Muller, Cristiano, Xavi, Zico, Platini, Baresi, Maldini, Matthaus
Or you start to group by position, for example:
| GOATS | Maradona | Messi | Pele | Beckenbauer | Cruyff | Di Stefano |
| Position | Central defender | Full-Back | Central Midfielder | Attacking Midfielder | Winger / Wide Forward | Centre Forward |
| Positional GOAT | Baresi | Maldini | Xavi Matthaus | Zico Platini | Cristiano Garrincha Best | Ronaldo Muller Van Basten Puskas |
| Best of the rest | Figueroa Moore Scirea Passarella Nesta | Cafu Carlos Alberto Zanetti Facchetti | Rijkaard Modric Falcao | Zidane Charlton | Ronaldinho | Eusebio Romario |
Obviously you can start to play with who goes where, and the categories can also be tweaked. But after the top 6 or so it starts to be difficult to compare, for instance, Baresi or Maldini with Muller.
I'm not totally comfortable with some of the distinctions. To give a few examples:
- There's a case that Xavi's influence on games was so extreme, consistent and legacy-creating that he deserves a place in the top bracket.
- Individually, I probably rate Zico a ball-hair higher than Di Stefano or Cruyff, but they had a greater whole-team impact. Is it right to gave that extra weight to overall influence or should it simply be about individual brilliance?
- Ronaldo's an outlier - a tier 1 peak but not sustained like the others.
- We could throw a load of attacking midfielders and 9.5 types in alongside Zidane and Charlton of a similar calibre, and other wide players alongside Ronaldinho, but they are the ones clearest in people's minds.
in my PES (oh ok Efootball) team, ive just moved my Beckenbauerrfrom CB (where hes a monster) to CDM and hes even better there, as gets on the ball more and his passing his superb. so /thread.
Great post agree 100%
I think what separates Messi from incredible dribblers such as Neymar and Hazard is his genius game reading. I wouldn't say that his dribbling technique, body feints, etc. are necessarily better than theirs but Messi just has this incredible vision and anticipation where space will open up that almost all his dribbles lead to something productive, be it a goal, a chance or "just" line breaking passes. He probably could have been an average dribbler in terms of technique and he'd still be among the absolute best of his generation. But in terms of pure ball control, agility, anticipation, etc. it doesn't get much that much better than Neymar and Hazard, IMO. It's just that Messi combines this with his unreal football IQ.
I thought Bernando Silva comes closer to Messi. He's more of a team player.
He and Di Stefano are perhaps the greatest anomalies football has witnessed, both capable of generating full debates regarding positions and where best to utilise them. If you have seen Beckenbauer’s games in central (2-way) midfield (whole WC ‘66 is accessible), you see a player with the potential to be the best CM ever as he’s flawless and more technically gifted than any that traditionally contest for greatest CM’s of all time.
So then, him moving back to DM or even further can be seen as either a waste or an impossible gambit to deal with. Allied to his intelligence and reading of the game, it makes sense to put him where he prefers, but ultimately, the fine line is you want this player to be on the ball and influencing play as much as possible, which naturally aligns with midfield in the modern era.
I wonder whether a modern [great] coach wouldn’t put him even higher up the pitch into a floating AM role - anything that has him with the most power to influence the game!
The closest player to Beckenbauer today is probably Frenkie De Jong at Ajax but a sign of the times that they've moved him further forward in his career rather than back.
Messi
Maradona
Di Stefano
Pele
cryuff
Ronaldo Nazario
Zidane
Xavi
Beckenbauer
Mbappe
Maradona
Di Stefano
Pele
cryuff
Ronaldo Nazario
Zidane
Xavi
Beckenbauer
Mbappe
I trully don't get the Xavi thing and I do think he was an extraordinary player, but we are talking about an All time list, invididually as great as he was, he is not UP there when we think that players like RG, Rivelino, Laudrup, Platini, Puskas, Garrincha, etc etc to just name a couple were more rare specimens in terms of ability. I do get it in terms of carreer and succeess and prime symbol of his Club and period, like I do also think that Iniesta it's a more talented and rare player than Xavi ever was too, even more in terms of what usually Barca and Spain produced in their history.
I wouldn't put also in pure terms of ability defenders, yet I can get when those are of the Calibre of The Kaiser, Maldini, Cafu, Figueroa, Passarella, etc ...players that exceed by far the requirements of their roles in terms of ability and sometimes also add incredible carreers can be praised as hell, they deserve it, but still it's quite an stretch when we think that players like Best can even be left out of this Top Tens.
Regarding the Irish man, I love the fecker and I also think that his style it's one of the most easy on the eye and easier to transpose to this period, I've allways thought that Messi is the mixture of Cryuff, Best and Zico...even more than a direct son of Diego. Yet with players like Best, like Moreno, Leonidas, Sivori, Sastre, Sarosi, Puskas, etc...or even more modern players like Kaka, RG their legacy would be more affected by the mere competence within his own country, the period were they played and the place where they played.
I wouldn't put also in pure terms of ability defenders, yet I can get when those are of the Calibre of The Kaiser, Maldini, Cafu, Figueroa, Passarella, etc ...players that exceed by far the requirements of their roles in terms of ability and sometimes also add incredible carreers can be praised as hell, they deserve it, but still it's quite an stretch when we think that players like Best can even be left out of this Top Tens.
Regarding the Irish man, I love the fecker and I also think that his style it's one of the most easy on the eye and easier to transpose to this period, I've allways thought that Messi is the mixture of Cryuff, Best and Zico...even more than a direct son of Diego. Yet with players like Best, like Moreno, Leonidas, Sivori, Sastre, Sarosi, Puskas, etc...or even more modern players like Kaka, RG their legacy would be more affected by the mere competence within his own country, the period were they played and the place where they played.
and his total goals, assists, pass metrics, team trophies and individual awards.... how do they stack up?
Anyone who changed their opinion on that because of the world cup is being silly imo. They're effectively saying that Messi is the best ever because 2 Argentinians scored their penalties and two French men missed theirs. Had those 4 penalties gone the other way, Messi wouldn't have won a world cup but it wouldn't have made any difference to him as a player.