Top 4 race / race abandoned (or maybe not) / Leicester & Chelsea in the process of bottling it

Crashoutcassius

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I must be one of the few that would prefer seeing pool finish above Chelsea for 4th, for me personally I will never root for a oil/state backed club over a self sufficient
im with you, altho mostly to make tuchel look like an absolute idiot
 

Bullhitter

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The most likely scenario now is Liverpool getting in and Leicester dropping out I think.
Most likely is Chelsea missing out I think. Leicester are a side you'd in most circumstances back to get a point if that is what their target is, they are well coached and know their roles and positioning. Then even if Chelsea were to win that one Villa away is a very points droppable game, Grealish loves a day in the sun pressure free.
 

sewey89

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Most likely is Chelsea missing out I think. Leicester are a side you'd in most circumstances back to get a point if that is what their target is, they are well coached and know their roles and positioning. Then even if Chelsea were to win that one Villa away is a very points droppable game, Grealish loves a day in the sun pressure free.
Nah, I think you're the favourites mate. But I would absolutely be saying the same if it was United in Chelsea's position, as i'm as pessimistic as they come :lol:

The game tomorrow is absolutely huge. That'll decide it.
 

diarm

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I would pay a years subscription to Sky Sports to watch the second leg of Crystanbul on the last day.
 

Bullhitter

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Nah, I think you're the favourites mate. But I would absolutely be saying the same if it was United in Chelsea's position, as i'm as pessimistic as they come :lol:

The game tomorrow is absolutely huge. That'll decide it.
Yeah but that's the thing, tomorrow is a must win but even then so is Villa away pretty much. So in a lot of scenarios we need 2 wins as do Liverpool but their fixtures are a hell of a lot more winnable.

I'm usually not overly bothered about whether it's Champions League or Europa League but when we actually have a side and a coach good enough to compete to actually win it it would be a shame to not even get in.
 

Gasolin

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I am not sure what is it that we want anymore. The most important thing is that one of the Liverpool / Chelsea miss out on UCL somehow.
Chelsea a bit more because they are in an upward trajectory with Tuchel and it would be good to kill their good spirit.
I still think Liverpool will be exhausted even next season, so it would be best to see them in UCL and not fear them too much.
 

WeePat

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Yeah but that's the thing, tomorrow is a must win but even then so is Villa away pretty much. So in a lot of scenarios we need 2 wins as do Liverpool but their fixtures are a hell of a lot more winnable.

I'm usually not overly bothered about whether it's Champions League or Europa League but when we actually have a side and a coach good enough to compete to actually win it it would be a shame to not even get in.
Tomorrow is the big one. Spurs at home is a tougher game than Villa away, and I wonder how their players will react to being outside the top 4 with qualification not being in their hands for the first time with just one GW left of the season.

Also interested in how they perform having to go to Stamford Bridge so soon after. Will they still be walking on cloud 9?
 

Bullhitter

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I am not sure what is it that we want anymore. The most important thing is that one of the Liverpool / Chelsea miss out on UCL somehow.
Chelsea a bit more because they are in an upward trajectory with Tuchel and it would be good to kill their good spirit.
I still think Liverpool will be exhausted even next season, so it would be best to see them in UCL and not fear them too much.
Honestly, I think you underestimate Liverpool and how strong they will be next season. i also think we are on an upward trajectory no matter what.

United fans should concern themselves more with getting your own house in order. Nearly all models have United around 8 points on the right side of variance this season so you are not n as sure a footing as you think. Some will dismiss this but the same was true of Liverpool in their title winning season they ran hot and they duly regressed.
 

Bullhitter

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Tomorrow is the big one. Spurs at home is a tougher game than Villa away, and I wonder how their players will react to being outside the top 4 with qualification not being in their hands for the first time with just one GW left of the season.

Also interested in how they perform having to go to Stamford Bridge so soon after. Will they still be walking on cloud 9?
I'm just looking at both our games as CL second legs where we are the home side and have drawn the away leg 0-0 and without having looked at the numbers I don't think either Leicester or Villa concede 2+ goals very often. So it's very cagey and on edge.
 

tomaldinho1

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I must be one of the few that would prefer seeing pool finish above Chelsea for 4th, for me personally I will never root for a oil/state backed club over a self sufficient
I feel like there's a few who seem to have taken a real interest in Tuchel failing because he's seen as a 'good' manager but that shouldn't usurp the broader United/Liverpool rivalry. Liverpool playing EL football is well worth a Chelsea top four finish.
 

Adisa

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We were the only ones that could stop Liverpool and we fecked it.
 

always_hoping

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We were the only ones that could stop Liverpool and we fecked it.
Chelsea somehow allowing themselves lose to Arsenal at home and Leicester getting well beaten at home to Newcastle last week is what really opened the door for Liverpool to finish in the top 4.
 

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Chelsea somehow allowing themselves lose to Arsenal at home and Leicester getting well beaten at home to Newcastle last week is what really opened the door for Liverpool to finish in the top 4.
But despite those situations happening Ole decided to rest our players against Leicester so we're fresh and full strength for Liverpool. Them scoring four at Old Trafford and at times completely nullifying us is the boost they ultimately needed.
 

Jam

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I must be one of the few that would prefer seeing pool finish above Chelsea for 4th, for me personally I will never root for a oil/state backed club over a self sufficient
I applaud your morale standing and defence of ethics in an increasingly immoral world.

But lads, it’s Liverpool.
 

WeePat

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I'm just looking at both our games as CL second legs where we are the home side and have drawn the away leg 0-0 and without having looked at the numbers I don't think either Leicester or Villa concede 2+ goals very often. So it's very cagey and on edge.
I hear you mate, I agree. Not interested in performances at this point. Just need the results.
 

Dan_F

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Honestly, I think you underestimate Liverpool and how strong they will be next season. i also think we are on an upward trajectory no matter what.

United fans should concern themselves more with getting your own house in order. Nearly all models have United around 8 points on the right side of variance this season so you are not n as sure a footing as you think. Some will dismiss this but the same was true of Liverpool in their title winning season they ran hot and they duly regressed.
Wouldn’t disagree, but that’s part of the reason why Liverpool finishing outside of the top four would benefit us. Liverpool would undoubtably go deep in the Europa, meaning more fixtures and a lot less money to spend. They’d probably struggle to convince Salah to stay too.

Either way, I don’t think it makes a difference what fans are “concerned” with. It’s not like we’re in anyway responsible for performance, transfers etc.
 

Gasolin

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Honestly, I think you underestimate Liverpool and how strong they will be next season. i also think we are on an upward trajectory no matter what.

United fans should concern themselves more with getting your own house in order. Nearly all models have United around 8 points on the right side of variance this season so you are not n as sure a footing as you think. Some will dismiss this but the same was true of Liverpool in their title winning season they ran hot and they duly regressed.
Yes, yes, United has to worry and everyone else will be stronger...
 

WeePat

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I feel like there's a few who seem to have taken a real interest in Tuchel failing because he's seen as a 'good' manager but that shouldn't usurp the broader United/Liverpool rivalry. Liverpool playing EL football is well worth a Chelsea top four finish.
There's also a feeling that Chelsea and United are both on a similar upward trajectory and jostling with each other for position as the team to challenge City. Liverpool could be there too, but they're a bit of a wild card next season. They could struggle for top 4 again or win the title again. Not sure what to make of them, but Chelsea and United appear to be in a very similar place.
 

united_99

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Despite Ole deciding to “rest” players we still had to play 3 games in 5 days.
And despite Ole deciding to play a full strength team against Liverpool the situation still was that we had nothing to play for anymore. You can’t expect the same preparation, intensity or mindset in such a situation.
Chelsea have to look at their games against Arsenal, West Brom or Brighton.
Leicester have to look at their games especially against Newcastle and 10 men Southampton.
 

Cal?

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Im so glad we lost to leicester. We really did them a deservice losing to liverpool. Liverpool definitely making top 4 by the looks of it. Hopefully its Chelsea that misses out.
:nono: hopefully Chelsea still makes it even if they finish 5th
 

Berbasbullet

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There's also a feeling that Chelsea and United are both on a similar upward trajectory and jostling with each other for position as the team to challenge City. Liverpool could be there too, but they're a bit of a wild card next season. They could struggle for top 4 again or win the title again. Not sure what to make of them, but Chelsea and United appear to be in a very similar place.
We have been in very similar positions the last few years and even took the same approach to our managers. I absolutely look at Chelsea as the club who are at a very similar stage.
 

Cal?

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I am not sure what is it that we want anymore. The most important thing is that one of the Liverpool / Chelsea miss out on UCL somehow.
Chelsea a bit more because they are in an upward trajectory with Tuchel and it would be good to kill their good spirit.
I still think Liverpool will be exhausted even next season, so it would be best to see them in UCL and not fear them too much.
The most important is that Liverpool miss out, I'd still want Chelsea to make it even if they finish 5th. :(
 

always_hoping

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But despite those situations happening Ole decided to rest our players against Leicester so we're fresh and full strength for Liverpool. Them scoring four at Old Trafford and at times completely nullifying us is the boost they ultimately needed.
The ridiculous schedule the PL gave Ole no choice but to rest players v Leicester. The biggest problem last Thursday was the attitude of the United players, they played through the motions while Liverpool played it like it was, a must win game for them.
 

Borussia Teeth

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That was in 2012. The rules were since changed so a maximum of five teams from one country could be in the Champions League. In 2017-18 England had five with Chelsea, Spurs and City qualifying automatically through the league, Liverpool having a play-off game for finishing fourth and Manchester United qualifying automatically due to winning the Europa.
My understanding (I could be wrong) is that there can only be 5 if a team out side of the top 4 wins Europa. Like us in 2017.
If a team outside of top 4 wins CL, they get in at expense of 4th place. CL win trump's 4th place in the prem but EL win does not. That was the Uefa/Prem compromise. (Apologies if I've dreamt this up)
 

roonster09

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My understanding (I could be wrong) is that there can only be 5 if a team out side of the top 4 wins Europa. Like us in 2017.
If a team outside of top 4 wins CL, they get in at expense of 4th place. CL win trump's 4th place in the prem but EL win does not. That was the Uefa/Prem compromise. (Apologies if I've dreamt this up)
If the CL winner finishes outside top 4 then Top + CL winner will qualify.

If Europa League winner and CL winner both finishes outside top 4 then top 3 + CL winner + Europa winner will qualify.
 

Damien

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My understanding (I could be wrong) is that there can only be 5 if a team out side of the top 4 wins Europa. Like us in 2017.
If a team outside of top 4 wins CL, they get in at expense of 4th place. CL win trump's 4th place in the prem but EL win does not. That was the Uefa/Prem compromise. (Apologies if I've dreamt this up)
Nope. If a team outside of the top four wins the Champions League, then there are five teams in the Champions League the following season. There's an explanation at the following link:

https://www.premierleague.com/european-qualification-explained

Should a Premier League club win the UEFA Champions League they will automatically qualify for the group stage of next season's competition regardless of their league finishing position.

Should a Premier League club win the UEFA Europa League they will automatically qualify for the group stage of next season's UEFA Champions League regardless of their league finishing position.

If a club win the UEFA Champions League or UEFA Europa League and finish in the top four, their qualification for the UCL through their league position is not transferred to another team.

A maximum of five Premier League teams are eligible for UEFA Champions League qualification.

In the event that a Premier League club win the UEFA Champions League and another win the UEFA Europa League and neither of these clubs finish in the top four of the Premier League, the club lying fourth in the table will drop into the UEFA Europa League group stage.

If a Premier League club win the UEFA Champions League and another win the UEFA Europa League and neither have qualified for UEFA competitions through their league positions or by winning the FA Cup or EFL Cup, they will qualify for the UEFA Champions League and the club finishing fourth in the table will drop into the UEFA Europa League group stage.
 

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Wouldn’t disagree, but that’s part of the reason why Liverpool finishing outside of the top four would benefit us. Liverpool would undoubtably go deep in the Europa, meaning more fixtures and a lot less money to spend. They’d probably struggle to convince Salah to stay too.

Either way, I don’t think it makes a difference what fans are “concerned” with. It’s not like we’re in anyway responsible for performance, transfers etc.
Money wise definitely for Liverpool but if they were in it i'd expect them to pretty much play a League Cup side in the Europa until the point where they reached the quarters or so.
 

Bullhitter

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Yes, yes, United has to worry and everyone else will be stronger...
Not worry necessarily but while the league table says United are the second best team in the league with some margin, I don't think that is the case and all models back that up. Like it's not a time to rest on laurels. With the squad as is United are more likely to be in a battle for top 4 next season than the title for example but the league table would wrongly imply otherwise.
 

charlenefan

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Not worry necessarily but while the league table says United are the second best team in the league with some margin, I don't think that is the case and all models back that up. Like it's not a time to rest on laurels. With the squad as is United are more likely to be in a battle for top 4 next season than the title for example but the league table would wrongly imply otherwise.
After the previous summer transfer window no one gave us a prayer of finishing the top 4 and yet we have been sat comfortably in second for most of the season

Chelsea on the other hand spent tons and were expected to finish top 4 comfortably (given the outlay a title challenge really should have happened tbh) and yet here we are 2 games to go and they may finish 5th

Liverpool spent no money the summer before they comfortably won the league
 

Bullhitter

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After the previous summer transfer window no one gave us a prayer of finishing the top 4 and yet we have been sat comfortably in second for most of the season

Chelsea on the other hand spent tons and were expected to finish top 4 comfortably (given the outlay a title challenge really should have happened tbh) and yet here we are 2 games to go and they may finish 5th

Liverpool spent no money the summer before they comfortably won the league
I don't think saying no one gave United a prayer of top 4 is anywhere close to accurate. Yes it's been an easy ride to 2nd but as I say all models say things have gone United's way and they *should* be sat with 8 or 9 points less than they have right now.

Look, Chelsea were handicapped by an incompetent manager and a raft of new players who were bought to be key components struggling to settle a) because of a pandemic and b) because the aforementioned incompetent manager didn't know what to do with them.

Liverpool as I said when they won the league ran insanely hot, like all-time contender hot, everything went their way. All models then said they were in no way the clear best side in the league and this season has shown that to be true.
 

charlenefan

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I don't think saying no one gave United a prayer of top 4 is anywhere close to accurate. Yes it's been an easy ride to 2nd but as I say all models say things have gone United's way and they *should* be sat with 8 or 9 points less than they have right now.

Look, Chelsea were handicapped by an incompetent manager and a raft of new players who were bought to be key components struggling to settle a) because of a pandemic and b) because the aforementioned incompetent manager didn't know what to do with them.

Liverpool as I said when they won the league ran insanely hot, like all-time contender hot, everything went their way. All models then said they were in no way the clear best side in the league and this season has shown that to be true.
What are these models you speak of? Were they made in the same factory as Essien's calculator?

FFS even you put us to finish 6th :lol: :lol: :lol:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/predict-the-top-6-20-21-in-order.456505/post-26029440
 
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Gasolin

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Not worry necessarily but while the league table says United are the second best team in the league with some margin, I don't think that is the case and all models back that up. Like it's not a time to rest on laurels. With the squad as is United are more likely to be in a battle for top 4 next season than the title for example but the league table would wrongly imply otherwise.
Yes, yes, we know, we will struggle, everyone else will not somehow, no worries...
 

WeePat

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We have been in very similar positions the last few years and even took the same approach to our managers. I absolutely look at Chelsea as the club who are at a very similar stage.
Completely agree. I look at United in the exact the way. The two teams have mirrored each other's performances since about 2018 and the expectations for both clubs for the next couple of seasons is about the same.
 

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Gazza

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Honestly, I think you underestimate Liverpool and how strong they will be next season. i also think we are on an upward trajectory no matter what.

United fans should concern themselves more with getting your own house in order. Nearly all models have United around 8 points on the right side of variance this season so you are not n as sure a footing as you think. Some will dismiss this but the same was true of Liverpool in their title winning season they ran hot and they duly regressed.
Let me make sure I understand d your second paragraph: United fans should concern themselves with helping United get back to the top - maybe we should be making calls to Jadon and Erling - instead of having a preference for which teams qualify for Champions League next season?