Does anyone here think Ole is in the top 10 managers around the world? If the answer is no, then we need to take another look at what's going on outside of Old Trafford. I'd hate it when we miss out on the next great young manager because we're too busy searching for facts to laud Ole. IMHO Ole will not win the league because he is surrounded by average staff. He lacks that extra edge that the best managers have.
Total lack of respect for an absolute club legend (another Ole thread)
- Thread starter Leethal
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You answered your own question. Yes Anderson was one of the biggest talents around. However he wasn't suited for the EPL or any big league in the world. A no 10 need to be able to score goals and have some sort of football brain something Anderson lacked.
Scouting is not just about identifying players with talent. Its about finding players with the right characteristics (physical, fitness etc) and attitude to succeed at the club they will be playing in. Hence why the likes of Blind, Rojo and Bailly had failed with United. Short/injury prone/who are not good in air CBs has no chance in hell in succeeding at this club.
On other words, one has 13, the other has 3. And not only Madrid by the way. Managers get sacked for having better seasons than we had in any after Fergie (Barca, Munich etc). At United nah, the club is somewhere between a plaything and an extended internship for the manager. Do that for seven years and the result is finishing more often than not outside of top 4 and never fighting for titles despite outspending any club not called Manchester City and Barcelona.
Ole is just a continuation of the process. The forum has a fetish with Moyes, so obviously it was gonna be even bigger with a legend like Ole.
As we're all well aware, Klopp walked in to Liverpool and in 18 months time, brought them success.
Oh, wait?! He didn't?!
It took him how long? How many transfer windows? How many players brought in to fit his culture and style of playing!? Surely this isn't right?! I mean, It's Jurgen fecking Klopp!? He doesn't need time?!
And let's not even go there with Pep. He walked in to the best team in the league filled ith superstars and a bench that's better than the majority of other teams starting 11. Oh, yeah, with an unlimited budget to buy/mold a team how he saw fit.
This thread isn't about Pep, and Klopp, anyway. That shit's strewn all over these forums; as they get worshipped like the messiah's they are and the magic they've conjured at a pace faster than what's expected from Ole.
Finally I thought, a thread in defence of Jesse Lingard.
Spent on two players who haven't even completed a full season and one player who hasn't even completed a full half season. It's not about budget compared to Pep but more like Klopp in that they were able to fill half of his team with immediate starters. Ole has at least two more players to sign for the first XI.
If you're going criticize Ole, fine. But there is a total disrespect towards him as manager especially when he's being compared to the managers above him in the table who have better players and are better managers in general.
United are where they should be in the league, all things considered...but all things are not being considered.
I've heard Paddy calling Fortune a club legend on MUTV. TBF Fortune was embarrassed by that comment.
I don't think anyone would be that crazy to call him a legend.
I'll never get tired of saying this - Ole knows the club inside out and will definitely do his utmost best to put it back on the right track. I'm not talking winning trophies, but work ethic, mentality, etc. He might not achieve much more than what he has already done, but the foundations he has laid are there for whoever comes in after him. And personally I have never expected anything more.
Whaaat
Alternatively, maybe the lesser team's have just gotten better and have taken point's from teams that have only a slight edge over them.
Liverpool and City aren't affected by this, because the edge between them and the chasing pack is just that big.
Ummm... This logic drives me up a wall. By the same token, Fergie would never have won any titles at all as he never hit the 97-100 point mark. Our treble team (79 points) should have struggled to make Top 4 etc. etc. The relative strength / weakness across the league varies by season and it's as relevant to compare across seasons as to say, "Well, if Man City were playing in La Liga, they'd have finished third instead of second" etc. In case you don't remember it, Moyes inherited the reigning champions (won it at a canter) in a much weaker league.
There were people on this forum in October ironically discussing our potential relegation. A few months later we're 3rd.
If people can't see that Ole and his staff are improving things I can only pity them.
If people can't see that Ole and his staff are improving things I can only pity them.
Sir Alex has been criticized heavily on here and rightfully so at times. Ole is yet to prove that he is a very good manager, nevermind a world class one. He has spent hell lot, been fully backed by the Board and needs to deliver accordingly. I find most of Ole's critics to be fair in their observations.
Dude, thats revisionism of the highest order
Both Klopp and Pep received plenty of critizism on here when they came to the league. Remember Peps first season, it was laughable really. An in regards to Klopp, the main thread on here was called "Jürgen Flopp - Sack watch" for the longest time.
Only when they managed to win something meaningful or at least were about to, the narrative changed. And as Ole is far from that at the moment, i find it only fair to critizise him as well, "club legend" or not
I don't think anyone would be that crazy to call him a legend.
Bojan Djordjic who played the grand total of one match for United is often introduced as a Legend on MUTV. Bojan agrees.
It is possible to criticise an aspect of a person while having total respect towards the man or what he'd achieved in the past. For example I have doubts about Ole being a top manager but there's no doubt that he's a club legend + as a player he was the epitome of what a professional player should be. Since United have this obsession of putting so much on the manager's plate, its also possible that one agrees with certain aspects of Ole's management while disagreeing with other aspects of his management. For example one can criticise Ole's tactical choices but still applaud his decision of giving youths a chance. Finally it is possible that some of the positive things done by a manager is common sense and rather then applauding the manager for doing them we should criticise the previous managers for not doing them. For example it doesn't take a genius to acknowledge that buying washed up players who are searching for their last big pay cheque is not a good idea at all.
Judging a manager's performance is difficult. Hence why minimum aim need to be set that needs to be reached. In my opinion if Ole manages to take us to CL qualification then he deserves to retain his job. Its as simple as that.
Judging a manager's performance is difficult. Hence why minimum aim need to be set that needs to be reached. In my opinion if Ole manages to take us to CL qualification then he deserves to retain his job. Its as simple as that.
Is this thread of yours going to make these posters care a hoot when they vent out next? If not, what's the point of this thread? It's the same thing in every thread related to Ole - Ole in vs Ole out. It becomes so boring after a point.
In any case, most on here realize he has done well since we acquired Bruno. However his squad management has been very questionable and people are questioning that. Why get so sensitive about such things?
Ok, so we'll just compare him with Sheffield, Wolves and Leicester than.
Before the start of the season, would anyone think that these would be the clubs that we would be competing for a spot in Europe?
It's easy to coach when all your players are fit and healthy, the real test is when you're missing players and they're unfit and Ole has shown that he's clueless at rotating players to keep them fresh.
We're on our way to our worst year yet in terms of points in the league and yet you've people saying it's not Ole's fault and it's the lack of quality in the team.
How the feck did Ole not change the system to fit the players we have in the first place? Our points total in 2019 was basically bottom half of the table standard and that's just unacceptable for our standards.
Seriously? He said it himself that he threw his career away due to arrogance and lack of commitment. How can you call such a guy a club legend?
That's the whole point I'm trying to make.Dude, thats revisionism of the highest order
Both Klopp and Pep received plenty of critizism on here when they came to the league. Remember Peps first season, it was laughable really. An in regards to Klopp, the main thread on here was called "Jürgen Flopp - Sack watch" for the longest time.
Only when they managed to win something meaningful or at least were about to, the narrative changed. And as Ole is far from that at the moment, i find it only fair to critizise him as well, "club legend" or not
They were afforded time. People in power saw the biggest picture - the project, if you will.
Saying that, our own fans want instance success. Klopp and Pep were given time, yet, Ole isn't being afforded that by some of fans. Rather, they want to ship him out as soon as we don't win a match - despite the evidence of progress for all to see.
You move a manager on when they become stale and progress isn't being made. If Liverpool had the same attitude and moved Klopp on after his first 18 months, imagine the mess they'd be in right now? Thankfully, for them, they stuck by him and allowed him time to build a team. Now look at them.
Remember sack Fergie, sell Giggs? Okay Ole deserves respect but he also deserves criticism. And if some people talked shite about him on here it's not unusual. You have no control over them. Why are you being so dramatic about this?
Whaaaat, please don't tell me this is true
It's just Mark Sullivan, he's like a kid in a sweet shop, he probably still can't believe he's working at United, Jonathan Greening, Michael Clegg, even Danny Webber who never played for the first-team are introduced as Legends.
Great. Klopp wins title in 4 seasons so every manager must. Sound logic.
I don't even know why you're ranting about pointlessly comparing him to the likes of Pep and Klopp. He's the one who has to prove his quality. They already have. Hence the strong scrutiny not to mention the fact that this is Manches United. You're actually forcing people who haven't been criticising Ole of late to do that through your weird overly defensive thread. Go back to worshipping him and the world will judge him as they would always do, with or without your 'dont care about opinions' stance.
I agree with you about the time aspect and I think the majority of fans are inclined to give it to him, myself included. Those genuinely calling for a sack you mentioned are nothing more than a vocal minority imo, one should not be fooled by those.
However, for all the progress that can be observed, there are quite a few aspects where we remain stagnant, things that are for Ole to address if he is to be awarded more time. And it starts with his ability to manage the squad and get a tune out of our so called lesser players. It's easy to coach a talented first eleven, it's much harder to manage a squad and as of now, he failed to successfully do the latter.
Also, I still don't see a working attacking system that doesn't rely on individual brilliance and all our best players being present. We won't have a squad depth like City anytime soon, so it is on him to find a way ro get results constantly, even with inferior players, as we've seen just this season that it is unsustainable to overplay the likes of Rashford, Pogba and now Bruno.
Last season i saw some insults which were out of line but this season as far as i can tell the criticism was much more constructive. Personally i'm not unhappy with the transfers but i don't think it's unfair to say that for about 200 mil. the ROI could've been better.
Some of the star players performed much better under Solksjaer (Martial, Rashford), you have to give that to the man but none of the 'no name players' (James, i think the money isn't nothing) or others really progressed. Is it really impossible to get a tune out of Lingard, Pereira, Chong ect.?
Soon it's going to be 18 months Solksjaer has been here and are his tactics and style of play fitting Manchester Untited long term? I think that's debatable.
Some of the star players performed much better under Solksjaer (Martial, Rashford), you have to give that to the man but none of the 'no name players' (James, i think the money isn't nothing) or others really progressed. Is it really impossible to get a tune out of Lingard, Pereira, Chong ect.?
Soon it's going to be 18 months Solksjaer has been here and are his tactics and style of play fitting Manchester Untited long term? I think that's debatable.
Fans don't think 6 months or 6 years down the line
It's a big problem with EVERY club in football - they listen to the fans.
Fans, for the most part, are utter morons. They are low-hanging-fruit biting plonkers who will listen to the latest hit piece written by utter failures of managers like Alan Shearer or Robbie Savage and bite them up.
They will remember at most the last 1-2 results and use them to paint a picture of a season.
They will forget a 19 game unbeaten run or a 14 game win streak after a terrible referee makes your team lose or draw a game.
They will endlessly complain about players and then complain about the better players bought to replace them too.
Nobody ever realises that there are 19 other clubs all spending HUNDREDS of millions with fans making the exact same noises.
So to see a manager like Solskjaer and a chairman like Ed Woodward actually form a plan that seems to extend beyond 1 season is unbelievably refreshing to see. Watch other clubs change their managers after 1-2 bad results - then change THOSE managers the same way etc etc.
I liked football management to rolling a 6 sided dice 38 times. If you have a good team or a good manager they turn it into a 7 sided dice. If you change your dice every time you roll a couple of 1's then you're always going to have average numbers then it isn't going to make things any better - maybe the dice roll a bit luckier next time!
I think its more about MUTV sugar coating the fact that they can't actually afford real legends to work on MUTV. I am not a big fan of nepotism and all. In my opinion United should always go for the most appropriate coaching/scouts/managers available irrespective whether he's a former player or not. However I do believe that United should treat our legends a bit better then they should. There are many non hands on jobs that our legends could fulfill and tbh I don't mind having one of them at board level especially considering how devoid of football knowledge our board is.
What a precious fan base we have.
This is exactly why hiring an ex legend was as bad idea as its impossible to have rational debate about him.
He’ll always be a legend as a player in my eyes, just not a good manager.
This is exactly why hiring an ex legend was as bad idea as its impossible to have rational debate about him.
He’ll always be a legend as a player in my eyes, just not a good manager.
Personally I think this is one of the best and most unique things about the match-going United fans, and should be celebrated, not mocked. Criticise the manager certainly, question his decisions, but for 90 minutes, we back him and the team to the hilt.
I personally much prefer that than the toxicity at Arsenal, or the outright delusional entitlement of a lot of fanbases in Spain.
It's not like the fanbase doesn't show its frustration. When we don't attack, you can feel the crowd getting anxious, and when there's a lack of quality, you can hear the groans at misplaced passes. But I really appreciate the fact that this never turns into outright hostility towards our own players an management.
We are Manchester United. We're not like other clubs. Success will come and go, but certain values have to remain. If we allow a lack of success to erode those values, then the club stops being what made it so special in the first place.
I have ongoing reservations about Ole. I wouldn't characterise myself as Ole In or Ole Out. But the one thing he has done without fail is uphold the values of the club. And as a fanbase we must, we MUST, uphold the values that are within our hands, and back the team and the manager 100% on matchday.
Disturbingly accurate.
I genuinely feel like there are some people who will still demand us to respect Ole all the time, even if the club is heading into relegation. Happens when you can't separate Ole the manager and Ole the ex-player a.k.a legend of the club. To put it more simply, you can be a great car driver but absolute trash at driving a motorbike and that is totally fine. In the case of Ole, since he is now the manager, he should be criticized based on his managerial career at ManUtd, not his past achievements as a player.
That is a joke right? The players get shat on constantly - even by the match going fans.
Even SAF is not immune to criticism.
Club is bigger... ?
I do agree we should refrain from making pointless criticism such as appearances, personal life, etc anything not relevant. Seriously what's the point in those bs.
Otherwise if the criticism are criticizing Ole's management and on point (if not on point, then simply criticize back the posters) relevant, then that's fine. Ideally if this is done in the best way i.e. diplomatic or using nice words. Criticize in the nicest ways as we can.
Club is bigger... ?
I do agree we should refrain from making pointless criticism such as appearances, personal life, etc anything not relevant. Seriously what's the point in those bs.
Otherwise if the criticism are criticizing Ole's management and on point (if not on point, then simply criticize back the posters) relevant, then that's fine. Ideally if this is done in the best way i.e. diplomatic or using nice words. Criticize in the nicest ways as we can.
And Moyes, the down to earth, hard working Scottish bloke would've done the same (the guy who thinks he deserved more time).
If they aren't very good and have been given countless chances, then yes. The fact the squad is absolutely knackered and the fringe players can't be trusted to either help the starting 11 get a result or even just provide cover for a match or 2 to provide a chance for some to rest, tells you that we can't 'get a tune out of them'.
Not to the level of some clubs. Match going United fans get on players backs when they're not performing, certainly, but I'd say it's more a show of frustration than the outright contempt shown by say, Madrid fans, who in my opinion are an absolute disgrace and don't deserve the players that have played for them.
United fans just dont know how to support a club or team.It's the thing I find the most disappointing about the club. You go to games and the atmosphere is like a tourist attraction rather than a stadium that's a scary home to visit.
There's no willingness to support a team or manager. They will always pull something out of their arse; pretending like what they say is special or accurate like - "top 4 isnt good enough for a club like United", "we are only doing decent because the league is so poor", or spending half their time acting like they know the players mentality just to shut up when they do well.
Tactically and performance wise every manager deserves criticism. However they have this initiative to rate managers and our team directly towards the SAF era. They want that instant success and is therefore blanked at seeing any real progress of a team, results or squad.
Whilst United have definitely shot below their weight in the last couple years; they act like we have been completely non existent in the last 7 aswell pretending like winning the Fa cup, Europa league, placing 2nd in the league never happened. They dont know how to climb a ladder of progression - they feel like they just deserve to consistently be at the top.
To me, we were always going to dip after SAF's retirement because he was both a mix of the manager and DOF to the club for 20 years. Not having a DOF has hindered our club progression in my opinion - but for the first time I feel like Ole is again both a manager and DOF to the club with an idea how United should be run especially since he played for us before.
I'm not comfortable with every decision or tactic used so far - but I've seen enough progress within the club to be happy with what I've seen this season even if we lose out on some of our targets. Ole has set a nice high bar of expectations from this years results which if not carried and improved upon in the next - then we can check if Ole has taken us as far as he can go.
There's no willingness to support a team or manager. They will always pull something out of their arse; pretending like what they say is special or accurate like - "top 4 isnt good enough for a club like United", "we are only doing decent because the league is so poor", or spending half their time acting like they know the players mentality just to shut up when they do well.
Tactically and performance wise every manager deserves criticism. However they have this initiative to rate managers and our team directly towards the SAF era. They want that instant success and is therefore blanked at seeing any real progress of a team, results or squad.
Whilst United have definitely shot below their weight in the last couple years; they act like we have been completely non existent in the last 7 aswell pretending like winning the Fa cup, Europa league, placing 2nd in the league never happened. They dont know how to climb a ladder of progression - they feel like they just deserve to consistently be at the top.
To me, we were always going to dip after SAF's retirement because he was both a mix of the manager and DOF to the club for 20 years. Not having a DOF has hindered our club progression in my opinion - but for the first time I feel like Ole is again both a manager and DOF to the club with an idea how United should be run especially since he played for us before.
I'm not comfortable with every decision or tactic used so far - but I've seen enough progress within the club to be happy with what I've seen this season even if we lose out on some of our targets. Ole has set a nice high bar of expectations from this years results which if not carried and improved upon in the next - then we can check if Ole has taken us as far as he can go.
See, this makes sense. We can criticize anyone, respectfully. Far to often on this forum, you get insults thrown around. That's just childish, and to be fair, it's the children here who are doing it.
Ole is an absolute legend as far as i'm concerned both from a player perspective and also from the last 18 months. He's not a world class manager just yet, but I actually like this team now. We have to improve, of course. I found it difficult to like some of the players before he arrived.
We have a long long way to go, but i'd rather go on this journey with Ole than most other managers.
We tried some great managers here since SAF but with no personality to manage this club. They have all failed.