Tottenham's mental issues when a trophy is in sight

SquishyMcSquish

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See my previous post. Exactly what i described. You guys unconsciously happy with 3rd. You make a narratives how finishing 3rd is a job well done.

It's a jib well done if you're offered that at the start of the season. But when 2nd is 2 match away you fight for it. Not hiding behind budget etc.

In 1 match budgets means nothing. 2 weeks ago you're at a point where if you beat burnley you're 1pts away from city. It doesnt matter how many billions city spent, win that game and you're close to 2nd. 1 game at a time.
We're consciously happy with third mate, we dream for more but no remotely intelligent Spurs fan is going to start throwing toys out of the pram because we're third in the league.

Did we not 'fight for it' ? Are you under the impression the players downed tools and didn't try against Chelsea or Burnley?
 

MoskvaRed

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They can put out a good starting XI if everyone is fit but the fallback options range from mediocre to garbage. That’s why they can’t make the break through. By contrast, we have Martial and Rashford out and can still play Lukaku (I know he’s not perfect but compared to Llorente...).
 

Sky1981

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We're consciously happy with third mate, we dream for more but no remotely intelligent Spurs fan is going to start throwing toys out of the pram because we're third in the league.

Did we not 'fight for it' ? Are you under the impression the players downed tools and didn't try against Chelsea or Burnley?
You say it yourself. Dream is what you do.

When you're at that point in time it's your cup final. It wasnt a dream. And you bottle it.
 

JPRouve

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You expect 3rd. But called your manager genious to get 3rd.

Or do you expect 6th?
I expect 6th because they have the sixth budget in the league. Their relative success is mainly due to actual bottle jobs from richer and more established clubs.
 

SquishyMcSquish

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You say it yourself. Dream is what you do.

When you're at that point in time it's your cup final. It wasnt a dream. And you bottle it.
I mean dream is what the fans do, if not being entitled arseholes with over inflated expectations is somehow a bad thing now then cool, sure.

Just absolutely bottled it didn't we.
 

cyberman

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Yeah if we cried harder we'd definitely start winning cups.
You saying fan pressure to win a trophy wouldn't give him second thoughts when he rests his players while losing away to Aston Villa?
Spurs fans suddenly don't have a voice?
You're automatically reaching for excuses as to why Spurs doesn't win trophies, actively fighting against it.
It's fascinating to see, every post of yours in here is dripping with condescension
 

Random Task

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We've been called failure and dubbed worst united I've ever watched when we finished 2nd
Yeah, I recall something similar on more than one occasion over the years, especially amongst the ABU media who just love to see us fail.

But it's different for Spurs and their fanbase, finishing in the top four seems to be the extent of their ambitions. Anything else is considered an added bonus.
 

MikeKing

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So... becauee you have a fraction of city budget it's understandable that you cant beat burnley. Ok
They want to have it both ways. They are massively overachieving by underachieving massively, some how.
 

Denis79

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So... becauee you have a fraction of city budget it's understandable that you cant beat burnley. Ok
We couldn't beat Burnley. Nobody beats Burnley! Which is odd considering where they are in the table.
 

We need an rvn

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Pardon me for pointing out the glaringly obvious, but referring to the team currently sitting third in the table as 'bottlers' is nonsensical.
Not really if take into account how the word should be used. Bottling it means that you fail to turn up or perform when you need to and the pressure is on.

They so often do well throughout the aeason and play great football but when it really matters they simply do not turn up. That Chelsea team is for the taking and spurs should have done better.
 

SquishyMcSquish

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So... becauee you have a fraction of city budget it's understandable that you cant beat burnley. Ok
Oh man you've got me there no team has ever been beaten by a team inferior to them on paper in the history of football ever.
 

GiddyUp

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It's a shame, they have a great team and the club certainly have a bright future ahead but they are in danger of having a once in a generation collection of players split apart without silver or even a solid fight for the league. I would fecking love Kane at United though, more then any other player in the league except for Kante for Matic. He will have a great and fulfilling career if he stays or goes but I wouldn't like him to end it like Shearer. Both of them deserve silverware on top of personal accolades, unfortunately that will not happen season after season with the clubs they love.
 

Sarni

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Considering the difference in resources between them and the rest of top 4 they should not really be anywhere near the title battle. The fact that they are in the conversation is impressive enough.

However, there is no reason for them to not compete for the FA Cup or Europa League (when they were in there) for so long. They should have won at least one trophy during the last decade.
 

SquishyMcSquish

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You saying fan pressure to win a trophy wouldn't give him second thoughts when he rests his players while losing away to Aston Villa?
Spurs fans suddenly don't have a voice?
You're automatically reaching for excuses as to why Spurs doesn't win trophies, actively fighting against it.
It's fascinating to see, every post of yours in here is dripping with condescension

Fan pressure? The fans aren't going to start getting on the backs of a manager/team who are delivering top 4 finishes every single season when we're signing nobody. We've consistently said we want to win trophies and want to take the cups seriously, but we're not going to start protesting because we have a sense of perspective. We've had multiple cup semi finals under Pochettino and a final, the idea that we just feck the cups off every season is a total myth.

Nah, I think there are plenty of reasons we haven't won a trophy, I just don't think it's because we've bottled it. You're going to get condescending posts when most posts about the club are ill informed, ignorant and cliche ridden tripe which boils down all our failures to vague, undefinable shite like 'mentality'. Serious debate gets treated seriously, people throwing the word bottler around for fun does not.

We're overachieving as a club and doing far better than we ever expected to yet people expect Spurs fans to be up in arms because we didn't keep up a title challenge we were never actually expected to make, or because we went out on penalties in a cup semi final. It's totally nonsensical.
 

youmeletsfly

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They just need a bit more quality to go over the line, there's no bottling it here. They just reached their superior limit.

Also I think there's a lack of let's say "leadership" in their team. I don't really see a Sergio Ramos in their team (other than the little pu$$y Delle Alli). They need someone to drive them over the edge, they seem to soft at times. (no disrespect to Spurs fans here, that's just how I see it)
 

SquishyMcSquish

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Considering the difference in resources between them and the rest of top 4 they should not really be anywhere near the title battle. The fact that they are in the conversation is impressive enough.

However, there is no reason for them to not compete for the FA Cup or Europa League (when they were in there) for so long. They should have won at least one trophy during the last decade.
We should have done better in the Europa League, I was genuinely very annoyed about how we treated the competition at the time, it was a good opportunity. I think we focused more on potentially battling for the league because of an expectation that Leicester would drop off, but it ended up backfiring.

Our FA cup performances haven't been bad. Two semi finals against a league winning Chelsea and 2nd placed United, and both games were tight affairs. I do think we played well in the Chelsea game in particular and were unfortunate not to win, couple of world class individual goals from Hazard & Matic decided it, which can happen in a one off game. The United match I was disappointed about because we took the lead and then threw it away, but you were a formidable outfit last season so it wasn't a shock.

Going out to Palace was obviously not good enough this season, injury crisis or not.
 

balaks

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I think it is mainly down to resources and a lack of investment. Although there is no doubt that more often than not when the pressure is on at the business end of the season we seem to falter - is this a mentality problem? I'm not sure but I guess success breeds success and perhaps getting that first trophy/title, etc. is the hardest and at times we don't seem capable of getting over the line. The last two performances have been really awful but a lot of that I think is as a result of fatigue because we don't have the same strength in depth that other teams around us have meaning we rotate less and have to rely on certain key players more than other teams.
 

SquishyMcSquish

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They just need a bit more quality to go over the line, there's no bottling it here. They just reached their superior limit.

Also I think there's a lack of let's say "leadership" in their team. I don't really see a Sergio Ramos in their team (other than the little pu$$y Delle Alli). They need someone to drive them over the edge, they seem to soft at times. (no disrespect to Spurs fans here, that's just how I see it)
I don't think we're that soft, if anything we can get too aggressive at times and lose our heads. We've got a number of very passionate players in the squad.

We have the France and England captains in the team, as well as Jan who I view as a leader, so whilst we obviously don't have a figure like Ramos I also don't think that's really the major problem.
 

Paxi

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Too much cheese and not enough bottle.
 

U99ted

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The New Newcastle. Though at least Newcastle took one title race to the final game.
 

VJ1762

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They don't have the resources to compete with the likes of us, city etc. And they are still above us in the table. Moussa sissoko starts for them, come on! Like someone said, they are overperforming.

However, I believe they should have won a trophy at least. Great teams are remembered partly by the number of trophies they won.My spurs friends tell me that it would be incredibly 'spursy' if this team breaks up without winning a single trophy. Maybe there is some mental aspect as well. I mean, they have lost a record number of times in the semi-finals of the FA cup.

And I think partly why people question whether Poch can take the next step is because the hype surrounding him is so great, that they are just waiting for him to win any kind of a trophy. Even Fergie had to start with the FA cup with us. His dismissive attitude towards the domestic cup competitions, saying that only PL and the CL are important, when he doesn't have any trophies to his name, maybe rubs some people in the wrong way.And this is one thing that I always give Mourinho credit for. When he arrived in 2004, maybe of all the gaffers at that time, he was the only one to take the Carling cup seriously, since he thought that it would build a winning culture in the team. And in hindsight, it did.

I don't know what Poch is going to achieve in tottenham without significant investment. In his time at the club, the 16-17 side was the best side and they couldn't do anything. Wanyama has declined, dembele gone, walker sold, Rose not the same,lloris has declined. Maybe he will jump ship to Madrid this summer. Madrid seem to be building around a young core. And he hates Barcelona. A match made in heaven.
 

MikeKing

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You .. think we're massively underachieving?
I'm saying at one point every season you get to claim your squad as one of the best assembled squads in the country, then when the going gets a bit rougher the narrative change to Pochettino overachieving with a decent squad, then when you realise he is not even achieving anything with the squad in terms of trophies, you don't raise any eyebrows and still hold on to the preexisting narratives.

My view is that Pochettino is not overachieving because you have a decent squad with a 30 goal striker leading the line. He has had the privilege of assembling that squad over a few years now, more than most managers are allowed. So even on a lesser budget than a few other clubs he has the advantage of prebuilt firm tactical foundation, team chemistry, supporting fans etc. Everything other managers hope they get time enough to sort out. What he has failed to do is instil that winning mentality that takes you from a good team to a lethal team. You guys have become complacent and while that assures a certain level of solidity in terms of top 4 it sets a dangerous precedent for future situations.

If you buy better players and spend more money you want them to improve you, not let them fall in line with the expectations already there. Getting better players might help you win something, but Pochettino will be facing a whole new set of challenges when these top players come into the team.
 

Sky1981

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The question is

Would klopp / pep win something with the current tottenham team? Because to be heralded as top managers poch competition are the big boys now.

Sadly we'll never find out like for like. But i think even at barcelona or madrid poch will perform less than pep/Jose/zidane. He doenst have that x factor that most often be the difference between finalist and winner.
 

Ballache

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They aren't bottlers, they simply don't spend as much as other clubs. They've done some very good recruitment and Kane developed into a world class striker. Add to that a very good manager and you have a team that, budget wise, is over-achieving. If they go ahead and sign three top players and fail then we can call them bottlers. 3rd would be a very good season for them. They frustrate me as I don't want City or Liverpool to win the league.
 

SquishyMcSquish

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I'm saying at one point every season you get to claim your squad as one of the best assembled squads in the country, then when the going gets a bit rougher the narrative change to Pochettino overachieving with a decent squad, then when you realise he is not even achieving anything with the squad in terms of trophies, you don't raise any eyebrows and still hold on to the preexisting narratives.

My view is that Pochettino is not overachieving because you have a decent squad with a 30 goal striker leading the line. He has had the privilege of assembling that squad over a few years now, more than most managers are allowed. So even on a lesser budget than a few other clubs he has the advantage of prebuilt firm tactical foundation, team chemistry, supporting fans etc. Everything other managers hope they get time enough to sort out. What he has failed to do is instil that winning mentality that takes you from a good team to a lethal team. You guys have become complacent and while that assures a certain level of solidity in terms of top 4 it sets a dangerous precedent for future situations.

If you buy better players and spend more money you want them to improve you, not let them fall in line with the expectations already there. Getting better players might help you win something, but Pochettino will be facing a whole new challenge when these top buys come into the team.
Our starting XI is up there with the best in the country, I'd argue third. Squad wise I think it's close between us/Chelsea/United and I don't believe there to be a big gap between the three, we have inferior depth but I do think we have a very good starting eleven when everybody is fit, though United fans would likely argue their XI is better. Our narrative is that whilst we have a good team, it's not as good as the top two and thus our only realistic chance of a trophy is in the domestic cups, where yes it is disappointing to have not won a trophy. It still doesn't cancel out the fact we're finishing 3rd most seasons, which is not an underachievement and the league is always the bread and butter.

Chelsea and United have decent squads. United fans think you have the world's best midfielder, you have the worlds best keeper and some of the best young talents in the country in Rashford and Martial. Chelsea have a record breaking keeper, one of the best midfielders in the world (kante) and arguably the best player in the league in Hazard, on top of a striker like Higuain and proper internationals like Rudiger, Kovacic, Jorginho etc, all of whom are very valuable players. Arsenal have two of the best strikers in the league, Ozil and again a team full of established internationals. These are very good squads, with managers who have the luxury of going out and picking talent that suits their system rather than adapting and having to make do with Sissoko, Winks, Davies etc.

Yes, Pochettino gets the advantage of a 'prebuilt firm tactical foundation'. He doesn't get the advantage of being backed in the transfer market, which consistently has been shown as the biggest marker of success. Our best midfielder left the club in January and was not replaced, this is a club where Pochettino is forced to be more adaptable than other managers because he knows he won't get what he necessarily needs. Has he failed to instil a winning mentality? Maybe, but we've been exceptionally consistent at winning league games under him, and have consistently made it deep in the cups and could be in a CL quarter soon.

The idea that getting better players is a 'whole new challenge' is baffling. If we sign better players we will do better, this is proven pretty much across the board. Liverpool brought in Van Djik, Alisson and Fabinho and went up a level, Pep struggled then spent huge money on the likes of Walker, Silva, Mendy etc and the team went up a notch, if you invest in to superior squad depth and address your weaknesses with signings you will improve as a team, 99% of the time. It wouldn't be a 'whole new challenge', it would be a blessing.
 

SquishyMcSquish

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So, @SquishyMcSquish, you are saying that Spurs is still a smalltime club, where 6th place should be their place?
Totally that.

No, I'm saying we're a club which considering our spending on wages/transfers, are clearly doing well to be third and you won't hear many complaints from the fans whilst we're there.

I don't think any team has a 'place', but certainly fans should try and have realistic expectations. Right now I think we have a team which is good enough to be in the top 4 places, but certainly not one which should be comfortably third, let alone going for the title.
 

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Mental fragility in sport is a real thing. Anyone that has ever seen the South African cricket team can attest..

Spurs fit the bill too.. Do well when there is little to no pressure. Seem to really crumble when it matters.. And not necessarily against better sides either.
 

sullydnl

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Considering the difference in resources between them and the rest of top 4 they should not really be anywhere near the title battle. The fact that they are in the conversation is impressive enough.

However, there is no reason for them to not compete for the FA Cup or Europa League (when they were in there) for so long. They should have won at least one trophy during the last decade.
This would be my take too.

I have no problem with people criticising them for failing to win any trophies over the last few years, that's fair. The only issue I have is when people try to fit the games they've lost in the league this year into that pre-existing narrative when really the fact that they're relatively underesourced is a far more pertinent factor.

They overachieve to even be near City and Liverpool. Then when they lose they get called bottlers, which ignores the fact that a setback like that is what should happen at that point. People act like they're underwhelming by not pushing on with City and Liverpool when really they're strained to breaking point just to get there.