You have one of the better squads in the league. One that has been playing together consistently which is another added advantage that most of the rivals team don't have. You have largely been able to keep that squad together too.
Tottenham's mental issues when a trophy is in sight
- Thread starter Dancfc
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I feel like their supposed mental weakness is overplayed due to the fact they've not won the league title in recent years at all yet. To 'bottle' something, I'd say you've generally got to be in a position where you're primed to win it but then throw it away in dramatic fashion. Spurs haven't done that. They've thrown away some games they should've won which would've had them right in contention, but then I'd feel comfortable saying that most sides who finish 2nd/3rd in the league can be categorised as having done that. We threw away an eight point lead with six games to go in 2012. Mourinho's 13-14 side could've probably won it had they not thrown away some silly points. Liverpool had slippy Gerrard the same season. Arsenal's entire existence since about 2004 has basically been doing this, up until about two years ago when they stopped competing at all. And they also threw it away in 02-03, before their rut really started. So, yeah, I'm not so sure it's really a weak mentality, as opposed to the fact people are just much more likely to notice when clubs who tend not to win big trophies come close to doing so, but eventually don't.
I'm not saying they are underachieving. I was pointing out the contradiction of narrative on their part. I have heard Spurs have the best defence in the league with Alderweireld, Vertonghen, Rose, Walker then Tripper etc. I've heard Dembele was better than Pogba at one point. I've heard Kane is better than Aguero (who is the sort of striker that carries a team to a title) I've heard Eriksen is world class. Son and Alli some of the best supporting forwards in the league. Dier huge talent at one point. Lloris better than Peter Chech. Now I'm fully aware not all Spurs fans agree on these claims so I wont call someone out here. I'm just pointing out that it certainly is contradictions on a general level when we talk about narratives surrounding Spurs.
I've never heard about a team having the best defence in the league, with the best striker in the league, with top 3 goalkeepers in the league managed by a top 2 manager in the league but never won a trophy. Certainly not without being ridiculed, but instead being praised on all levels for their "achievements". I get that expectations are low at a club like Spurs, but damn, looking at the narratives somewhere in there its a few lies somewhere surely.
I'd say City mostly have this advantage as well. For all Pep's spending, you could argue a number of their key players have been there for a good while.
We have a number of severe deficiencies which are what is costing us currently. Fullback, goalkeeper and central midfield have been three big problem areas for a while, and the rivals have the luxury of being able to fix their problems in the transfer market, which Pochettino does not.
Fair to say that. Of course you are not ready to challenge for top 2 places with your current squad depth but as your team is fighting for top 4 quite often and as a fan, shouldn't you be there and wanting your team to step up from that "top 4 is a great performance"?
I see what you are saying but even at the club from my home town, we always want to achieve more and the fans don't always want to finish in the midtable in the lowest league possible in Austria
It can happen. During the big four era Arsenal and Liverpool had long stints without trophies in spite of the quality players their teams often had. Because the league was ultimately highly competitive and they were edged out by two slightly better teams.
This thread is the punishment for over achieving teams.
The classic example being Leicester.
If they had operated around midtable, no-one would have said a word.
Instead they amazingly won the league, so midtable after that seemed a poor performance, when in reality it's their real level.
See promoted teams then struggling in the Premier league too.
The classic example being Leicester.
If they had operated around midtable, no-one would have said a word.
Instead they amazingly won the league, so midtable after that seemed a poor performance, when in reality it's their real level.
See promoted teams then struggling in the Premier league too.
Liverpool have the best defence in the league, Kane is the best striker in the league but other teams also have very good players in various positions. Of our competitors for top 4 alone teams possess the likes of Kante, Hazard, Pogba, Aubameyang/Lacazette, De Gea etc.
Lloris hasn't been a top 3 keeper for a long while, he was dirt last season and has been dirt this season. We also have some great strengths in the squad but combined with great weaknesses, our midfield has been allowed to go to rot and we have no reliable fullbacks.
I want us to step up, but the only way we will do this is through investment. We badly need the board to back Pochettino in the transfer market if we do want to push on from third.
What I'm not going to is put heavy blame on Poch for finishing third while the problems in the squad are not addressed in the transfer market. He is not a magician, he can not turn Sissoko/Winks/Davies/Aurier/Dier in to special players, we need more quality coming in to the side, it's as simple as this.
All this bottle thing is a bit stupid isn't it? Everytime Spurs lose, it's because they are bottlers?
It takes some nerve to label them as such, when your own team has a budget in a completely different stratosphere and still sit comfortably behind them in the league.
It takes some nerve to label them as such, when your own team has a budget in a completely different stratosphere and still sit comfortably behind them in the league.
I don't think anyone would argue that Spurs don't have a quality first team. The argument is that beyond that first team they are (relatively) threadbare.
For example, let's take their 3-1 loss to Wolves a few weeks ago as one of the games they are accused of bottling. On the bench that day they they had Rose, N'Koudou, Walker-Peters, Foyth, Gazzaniga, Moura and Skipp. Now, with all the best will in the world, that is utter shite. This has two effects: 1) The quality players in their starting 11 are exhausted from being overplayed due to the lack of appropriate cover and 2) they have next to nothing to bring on to change or even see out a game.
To look at that and then say "well, mental fragility must be the reason they lost" is odd. The reason they lost is because a team that lacking in depth is supposed to lose sometimes. The fact that they managed to get ahead of City (who usually have two of Mahrez, Sane, Silva or Sterling on their bench every week) at any point is the story there, not that they couldn't keep it up.
For example, let's take their 3-1 loss to Wolves a few weeks ago as one of the games they are accused of bottling. On the bench that day they they had Rose, N'Koudou, Walker-Peters, Foyth, Gazzaniga, Moura and Skipp. Now, with all the best will in the world, that is utter shite. This has two effects: 1) The quality players in their starting 11 are exhausted from being overplayed due to the lack of appropriate cover and 2) they have next to nothing to bring on to change or even see out a game.
To look at that and then say "well, mental fragility must be the reason they lost" is odd. The reason they lost is because a team that lacking in depth is supposed to lose sometimes. The fact that they managed to get ahead of City (who usually have two of Mahrez, Sane, Silva or Sterling on their bench every week) at any point is the story there, not that they couldn't keep it up.
I came to write that
There was never really a trophy in site.
It's very easy to label Spurs as bottlers (due to them so traditionally bottling everything), but they are the third placed team.
They've not played well for a lot of the season, aren't on the same level as Liverpool or City even when they do play Well, have done nothing to strengthen their team.
They've also been lucky in a large number of games this season. To the point I struggle to think of a comparable example in terms of a team winning so many games in which they have struggled to look like the better side. Despite that, if they don't win on Sunday they are in the scramble for a 4th placed spot with probably the most difficult set of fixtures left of anyone. That's the reality of it. They haven't bottled anything because no one could say with a straight face they were actually within sight of winning the Premier League
It's very easy to label Spurs as bottlers (due to them so traditionally bottling everything), but they are the third placed team.
They've not played well for a lot of the season, aren't on the same level as Liverpool or City even when they do play Well, have done nothing to strengthen their team.
They've also been lucky in a large number of games this season. To the point I struggle to think of a comparable example in terms of a team winning so many games in which they have struggled to look like the better side. Despite that, if they don't win on Sunday they are in the scramble for a 4th placed spot with probably the most difficult set of fixtures left of anyone. That's the reality of it. They haven't bottled anything because no one could say with a straight face they were actually within sight of winning the Premier League
Tottenham winning the league would have been a ridiculously huge achievement at the beginning of the season. Yet failing to win the league makes them bottlers?
City not winning the league this season given the money they have spent would be more close to a bottle job.
City not winning the league this season given the money they have spent would be more close to a bottle job.
They just have zero winning mentality. If we were in a cup final against City/Liverpool/Chelsea/Arsenal, I'd know we'd be in for a tough game and would have to play well to win. If we were in a cup final against Spurs I know for an absolute fact we would win. The thought of losing wouldn't even come into my mind.
Big game bottlers, always have been, always will be. They will never ever win the Premier League. Ever.
Big game bottlers, always have been, always will be. They will never ever win the Premier League. Ever.
You are right. The league is highly competitive and difficult to win. I don't think anyone would claim Spurs have a claim to win it based on squad strength, but if Pochettino had the sauce of overachieving as a manger they could have! If he had that, he would have proved it with at least a cup by now. Instead... I mean Pochettino has literally come out and said trophies doesn't matter to him and Spurs.
He just said so himself that Spurs has first team players on level with Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal, and arguably Kane and Eriksen is City level. Somehow not expected to compete with them or being able to win a trophy, as well as claiming Pochettino is overachieving with that squad. Go figure.
I might be wrong but hasn't Poch been buying backups? People talk as if he hasn't spent a penny but realistically they have bought enough backups to at least have won a cup. The problem seems to be integrating the backups into the first team.
I'm not saying you are perfect..
But honestly none of your rivals do either.
Spurs have a damn good side.
I agree.
The core of that side precedes Pep.. But the other big sides have largely failed to buy well. I would include Spurs in that. Poch has made some really poor buys too. His biggest ace is being able to keep most of his core players.
They have never been in a title race. Even in the season they drifted to second. They haven’t bottled anything. They’re Spursy.
There is an arrogance about the club and it’s fans that turns its nose up at trophies (the cups) and focuses on a CL spot.
I get it. CL pays the bills and keeps the lights on. But it’s hugely uninspiring.
They will not win the league in the next decade or two. No chance. To not try and win a cup during that time and not see it as part of a pathway to shortening that genuine title challenge is stupid.
There is an arrogance about the club and it’s fans that turns its nose up at trophies (the cups) and focuses on a CL spot.
I get it. CL pays the bills and keeps the lights on. But it’s hugely uninspiring.
They will not win the league in the next decade or two. No chance. To not try and win a cup during that time and not see it as part of a pathway to shortening that genuine title challenge is stupid.
why is stupid? it's a valid accusation based on number of years not just this one.
This is what happens at clubs where none of the players are winners, with no experience in the squad of winning titles, and the expectation from the board down to the coaching staff is to finish in the top four above trophies. Same story with Arsenal.
This.
Their fanbase literally enables the club's pathetic mentality when it comes to trophies.
There's some kind of daft thing where pointing out the obvious isn;t cool regarding Spurs, but they're a bottling club - SAF said it, Keane said it, Neville said it, and they're all correct.
Like every other thread in the Football forum.
Good post.
Not entirely true since Aurier and Lucas Moura won titles with PSG and Vertonghen, Alderweireld and Eriksen won titles with Ajax.
The problem with cups is it's intrinsically quite difficult to focus on them and try to win them due to the one-off game format. You can put as much as you want into it, but one bad game and you're fecked. In that regard it makes sense for any manager to focus on the league from a week to week basis. Any manager who, indeed, doesn't do that will inevitably face difficulties in that it's the league they're generally judged on.
No it's not. They haven't had a top4 budget like ever, and are expected to lose now and then, just like everone else. The thing is.. They don't lose as much as expected, do they? Can you be bottlers and overachievers at the same time?
It's a fairly silly and vague term anyway. Most big name footballers are talented enough and adept at playing in front of large crowds to the point where they're mostly all winners, if you're going to quantify such a vague term. I don't think players like Kane or Eriksen necessarily lack a winning mentality or anything...they've just been in a team that's not managed to go the distance in any competition yet. Comparatively speaking, someone like Gerrard didn't win all that much in the grand scheme of his career, because there were generally better sides around than the Liverpool ones he played for. But no one would have argued he lacked a winning mentality considering his role in them winning the CL in 05.
Plus, to add to your list - Lloris won the WC as well last year.
They’ve rested players in the cup before and fallen foul of doing so.
I endorse your point as being correct. But Spurs have gone out of cups through neglect more than they have due to ‘one bad game’.
Safe to say they tend to bottle.
100% agree on the bolded. And I also forgot Wanyama who won 2 titles with Celtic and Llorente who won 2 Scudettos with Juve.
They trsnsform from world beaters to average when the pressure is up and some trophy is within distance. Be it cause they actually are not that good, or they lack the experience (in both coach and players) to win something.
Hand on heart, where did you expect Spurs to finish at the beginning of the season?
Cos I've just gone back and had a quick look at the top 4 prediction thread here at the beginning of the season. Less than half of the posters had us finishing in the top 4. Yet now we're bottling because we lost to Burnley away and Chelsea away? Bottling what exactly? Even if we'd won at Stamford Bridge, we'd have been an extremely distant 3rd to challenge for the title. And almost nobody even had us as title challengers at the beginning and rightly so, because we don't have a title winning squad.We have a squad which finished 3rd last season, didn't add anyone and is at the level of a top 4 squad. Like the other top 4 squads (Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal), we drop silly points.
Someone I know said we may not be bottlers but we're not winners either and I'd go along with that.
Yesterday was a shite performance, by both teams, which was ultimately decided by defensive errors. The whole game had 1 shot on target ffs. It was abysmal.
So is the club arrogant about trophies or is it not arrogant enough and we're just happy with the bare minimum?
It is hugely uninspiring but that is the sad reality of football. We could have won the last 3 league cups and finished 7th for instance each season and we wouldn't have the money (or CL) to keep most of the players we have managed to. And I am someone who very much wants us to win trophies.
As for the league comment, strange comment to make.
How many people would have said the next 20 years of the PL would look like this in terms of winners:
Man Utd 8
Arsenal 2
Chelsea 5
Man City 3
Leciester 1
Liverpool/Man City another 1?
Considering Chelsea and City hadn't won the league for 50 and 45 years?
Such a difficult thing to even try to predict.
If you're refering to me you are taking what i'm saying totally out of context.
Yes Spurs/Poch have done incredibly well to get to where they are in the first place but it's still a valid question as to why they always seem to blow every single chance to take that next step and seriously knock on the door re trophies. Yes i accept it's great work that they manage to get so many chances at it given Levy gives his managers mild backing at best, but it doesn't change the fact they seem to blow it whenever presented with these chances, even against clubs which have a fraction of Tottenham's own resources themselves ala Burnley this weekend, Pompey 2010.
Out of interest, what are the occasions that you think this team has bottled a trophy in the past 3 years, seeing as we're talking about this team specifically 'bottling it'?
We've been in the CL 3 times (still are I guess, though I'm sure we'll be called bottlers once we end up getting knocked out by Bayern or something), PL 3 times, FA cup and league cup three times and Europa league once.
Our performance has generally been very poor in Europe under Poch I have to say and that is something he needs to work on and I've been saying that for a while, though he was maybe a bit unlucky with the draw last season. But when do you think we've bottled in your opinion?
I think it's just human nature to be a little bit frightened of things that are unfamiliar.
Their squad is good enough to win trophies. I would agree that they have mental problems. For some teams, that is what hinders them.