Transgender Athletes

[jojojo]

I've bumped a whole batch of posts across to the main transgender rights discussion.

Those posts almost all cover a broader range of topics than the questions around transgender athletes and sport. Apologies to anyone whose post got swept into the other thread and needs to come back into this one. Please repost in this thread if that has happened.

 

[VorZakone]

Two transgender cyclists took home gold and silver at a women’s cycling event in Chicago — sparking fresh controversy as only one biological female made the podium.

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[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

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[VorZakone]

Navratilova is a former World No1 tennis player, for context.

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[fergieisold]

Navratilova is a former World No1 tennis player, for context.

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How incredibly narcissistic do you have to be to be a man identifying as a women competing in a women's tournament. Feel sorry for the women who have to deal with this crap. My guess is many of these sports will have the athletes breakaway to a new organisation that does the common sense thing and completely excludes trans competitors.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

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Seems this is kicking up a stink in women's football

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[Stack]

So here in NZ we have a new Govt and they are about to move to ban Transgender athletes from competing in Womans sport. Interesting in a way because we have gone from having a Transgender athlete compete in womans weight lifting at the last Olympics to now.
I still dont have a fully formed opinion on this, its an issue that has many sides to it and I find it difficult to have an opinion one way or the other, something for me thats best left to those with more informed knowledge than I have but one sad thing is how certain issues become politicised and some peoples opinions essentially come down to what side of the political fence someone sits on. Thats not really conducive to finding the right solution. It will be a very divisive decision here as people align behind their political positions.
One problem I do have with what we are about to do in NZ is that it is essentially a bunch of men pushing a decision about a womans situation.

 

[Stack]

I've bumped a whole batch of posts across to the main transgender rights discussion.

Those posts almost all cover a broader range of topics than the questions around transgender athletes and sport. Apologies to anyone whose post got swept into the other thread and needs to come back into this one. Please repost in this thread if that has happened.

Jo is my recent posting in the wrong place? apologies if it is.

 

[jojojo]

Jo is my recent posting in the wrong place? apologies if it is.

No, you're in the right thread. Trans athletes worldwide do get used as political ammunition unfortunately. It's often used as a wedge issue to undermine trans rights and deride trans people.

Fairness in a competitive sporting sense is already defined and governed by a lot of rules and conditions. It would be nice if this could be discussed for what it is - another area where rules and conditions may be needed and where gender identity alone might not be enough to identify what's fair.

It certainly makes for some strange campaign alliances as well as causing a lot of pain to the athletes involved.

 

[Acheron]

One problem I do have with what we are about to do in NZ is that it is essentially a bunch of men pushing a decision about a womans situation.

I don't know why that is but women should also be against it.

 

[VorZakone]

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[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

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I don't get what the conditions could be that would maintain safety of the biologically female athletes

 

[VorZakone]

I don't get what the conditions could be that would maintain safety of the biologically female athletes

They must meet certain criteria, including declaring their new gender identity, completing gender reassignment surgery and regular hormone testing.

Both male and female transgender athletes must have undergone quarterly hormone testing and provided US Boxing with documentation of their hormone levels for a minimum of four years following surgery.

 

[SilentWitness]

I don't see much of an issue if it's in a pro boxing fight where both athletes have signed up to it.

It's different in Olympic boxing where you don't necessarily sign up to fight one athlete specifically but in pro boxing we have had people like Claressa Shields saying she wants to fight men and has sparred with them etc.

 

[Mike Smalling]

I don't see much of an issue if it's in a pro boxing fight where both athletes have signed up to it.

It's different in Olympic boxing where you don't necessarily sign up to fight one athlete specifically but in pro boxing we have had people like Claressa Shields saying she wants to fight men and has sparred with them etc.

I'm not really into boxing, but wouldn't this approach mean that it would potentially be a lot harder for biologically female boxers to get their hands on the most prestigious titles and belts? Even if every individual match is agreed upon, there is a progression to the sport that typically culminates in a title fight.

 

[SilentWitness]

I'm not really into boxing, but wouldn't this approach mean that it would potentially be a lot harder for biologically female boxers to get their hands on the most prestigious titles and belts? Even if every individual match is agreed upon, there is a progression to the sport that typically culminates in a title fight.

Could be, but the state of boxing in terms of how it is run in terms of title defences, mandatories etc. is in need of a massive overhaul regardless of transgender athletes.

This would be one issue though in that realm, agreed, but as with all transgender athlete debates, I would expect dialogue to happen between relevant bodies and the athletes in order to determine how they feel about it and what their thoughts are.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

I don't see much of an issue if it's in a pro boxing fight where both athletes have signed up to it.

It's different in Olympic boxing where you don't necessarily sign up to fight one athlete specifically but in pro boxing we have had people like Claressa Shields saying she wants to fight men and has sparred with them etc.

The issue will be around whether the natural speed and strength advantages are reduced via hormone therapy.

 

[SilentWitness]

The issue will be around whether the natural speed and strength advantages are reduced via hormone therapy.

Why does that matter if both opponents agree to the fight? It's their choice at the end of the day, no?

 

[Redstain]

Why does that matter if both opponents agree to the fight? It's their choice at the end of the day, no?

Because it's a monumental disadvantage, the training is coherently different due to the physical capabilities which is also a reason why the rounds differentiate (used to be 15 rounds for men's and even in camps fighters train for 15-17 rounds to be optimal for 12 in a bout). Clarissa shields statements are also quite frankly ridiculous, look at the men she's sparred in the gym, they are mostly green and seemingly from the videos were pulling their punches.

If Shields who is a female middleweight undisputed champion fought even a C level male fighter who's ranked with one of the boxing organisations top 100 she would get demolished.

 

[SilentWitness]

Because it's a monumental disadvantage, the training is coherently different due to the physical capabilities which is also a reason why the rounds differentiate (used to be 15 rounds for men's and even in camps fighters train for 15-17 rounds to be optimal for 12 in a bout). Clarissa shields statements are also quite frankly ridiculous, look at the men she's sparred in the gym, they are mostly green and seemingly from the videos were pulling their punches.

If Shields who is a female middleweight undisputed champion fought even a C level male fighter who's ranked with one of the boxing organisations top 100 she would get demolished.

Of course, but it's their choice to put themselves in that position. It's a lot easier to facilitate 1 Vs 1 than team sports or sports which are individual in a tournament capacity.

I realise that safety is paramount in terms of the governing bodies (or should be), so that could be a stumbling block but its really a weigh up of risk since we know there have been deaths in both male and female boxing previously.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Why does that matter if both opponents agree to the fight? It's their choice at the end of the day, no?

Well I think then we are moving more towards unregulated bare-knuckle-style fights. At some point athlete welfare trump their personal decision to fight, hence why we have governing bodies/sanctions and why fights and fight licences don't get sanctioned.

 

[SilentWitness]

Well I think then we are moving more towards unregulated bare-knuckle-style fights. At some point athlete welfare trump their personal decision to fight, hence why we have governing bodies/sanctions and why fights and fight licences don't get sanctioned.

I don't necessarily disagree, I just think boxing is a little different as it's one of the few sports that exists where you can and do pick and choose opponents and you have an element of choice in that aspect (albeit having to consider title implications). On the other hand it is also one of the few sports where you have a legitimate chance of death every time you compete in it so that of course has to be taken into consideration.

If there are legitimate concerns about athlete welfare then the whole of boxing and combat sports needs to take further action in general as there is still very dangerous weight cutting and match-ups taking place, aswell as allowing people such as Chisora to keep fighting.

 

[Balljy]

Of course, but it's their choice to put themselves in that position. It's a lot easier to facilitate 1 Vs 1 than team sports or sports which are individual in a tournament capacity.

I realise that safety is paramount in terms of the governing bodies (or should be), so that could be a stumbling block but its really a weigh up of risk since we know there have been deaths in both male and female boxing previously.

It's not a choice if none of the title belts are available if someone only want to fight biologically born females. Of all the sports where there could be a disadvantage I think boxing would be pretty much the highest on the list in terms of difference between genders.

You mentioned earlier that rules would have to be changed, but there's no mention of that at the moment and I can't see how they could change them without reintroducing a divide which would defeat the purpose anyway? It'll be interesting to see the outcome though, as I think there would have to be various rule changes to facilitate this down the line.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

I don't necessarily disagree, I just think boxing is a little different as it's one of the few sports that exists where you can and do pick and choose opponents and you have an element of choice in that aspect (albeit having to consider title implications). On the other hand it is also one of the few sports where you have a legitimate chance of death every time you compete in it so that of course has to be taken into consideration.

If there are legitimate concerns about athlete welfare then the whole of boxing and combat sports needs to take further action in general as there is still very dangerous weight cutting and match-ups taking place, aswell as allowing people such as Chisora to keep fighting.

Agree but I don't think because of current poor management is an argument for why more unfair structures can be allowed.

 

[SilentWitness]

It's not a choice if none of the title belts are available if someone only want to fight biologically born females. Of all the sports where there could be a disadvantage I think boxing would be pretty much the highest on the list in terms of difference between genders.

You mentioned earlier that rules would have to be changed, but there's no mention of that at the moment and I can't see how they could change them without reintroducing a divide which would defeat the purpose anyway? It'll be interesting to see the outcome though, as I think there would have to be various rule changes to facilitate this down the line.

I suppose it can also depend in what respect the athletes want to compete. Do they want to compete to be the champion, do they want to compete and be able to do the sport they love etc.? and how can rules be amended or facilitated for those objectives be achieved in fairness of all parties. Another point raised before in here is creating different medal or titles so that all parties can still 'win' in that respect.

It's difficult because you do need all parties to come together and discuss it first and foremost to iron out the issues (like any sport) and there won't be complete agreement and perhaps none, but having those discussions and chances to try to facilitate something should be available.

If a trans athlete held a title and nobody wanted to fight them I'd expect the title would have to be relinquished.

It's never going to be completely fair at this stage in respect to science and society unfortunately but I think we can perhaps do a bit better in helping ourselves more.

Agree but I don't think because of current poor management is an argument for why more unfair structures can be allowed.

Of course, but boxing is always going to be a sport with very high risk in any category and is only really possible to reduce that risk as much as possible.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Of course, but boxing is always going to be a sport with very high risk in any category and is only really possible to reduce that risk as much as possible.

Yes I agree but I don't think because some athletes will consent to fight natal males, this is acceptable

 

[VorZakone]

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[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

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I have no issues with this as golf isn't a sport whey

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

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[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

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[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

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[711]

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Article fails in the first sentence, I can't be arsed to read beyond that. Parkrun is both non-competitive and definitely competitive depending on the individual, each participant has their own motives. Very friendly and welcoming for everyone, I highly recommend it, whether fit to run or only walk, it doesn't matter, there will be others just like you. Join in and enjoy it.

As for records, there seems to be an awful lot of men telling women what to do, as a man I'm happy to let them decide.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Article fails in the first sentence, I can't be arsed to read beyond that. Parkrun is both non-competitive and definitely competitive depending on the individual, each participant has their own motives. Very friendly and welcoming for everyone, I highly recommend it, whether fit to run or only walk, it doesn't matter, there will be others just like you. Join in and enjoy it.

As for records, there seems to be an awful lot of men telling women what to do, as a man I'm happy to let them decide.

The author of the article is on record saying they would be happy if all trans athletes replaced women athletes on podiums because it would "inspire trans kids".

 

[711]

The author of the article is on record saying they would be happy if all trans athletes replaced women athletes on podiums because it would "inspire trans kids".

I don't really care what his opinion is to be honest, as I said my own is to let the women of the organisations decide on their rules.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

I don't really care what his opinion is to be honest, as I said my own is to let the women of the organisations decide on their rules.

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[BD]

Citing J.K. Rowling on this issue is never a good look.

Parkruns are an uncompetitive event overall. Sure, some people are competitive within it, but only relative to themselves (i.e. using it as a way to measure how fast they can run 5k, and trying to get under a specific goal). No one should be using it as a way to 'win' or to beat someone else - that's not the idea. There are plenty of genuine competitive road races for that. It'd be nice to imagine that a trans-person can take part, and not have to defend their right to that. But apparently not.

 

[VorZakone]

Citing J.K. Rowling on this issue is never a good look.

Parkruns are an uncompetitive event overall. Sure, some people are competitive within it, but only relative to themselves (i.e. using it as a way to measure how fast they can run 5k, and trying to get under a specific goal). No one should be using it as a way to 'win' or to beat someone else - that's not the idea. There are plenty of genuine competitive road races for that. It'd be nice to imagine that a trans-person can take part, and not have to defend their right to that. But apparently not.

Does Martina Navratilova count?

 

[BD]

Does Martina Navratilova count?

In what sense?

 

[VorZakone]

In what sense?

You said citing J.K. Rowling on this issue is never a good look. Is it OK to cite Navratilova?

 

[Superden]

firstly, im not a 'fan' of people changing their gender, and am pretty solid in my beliefs based on biological sex determining gender.
However, even i can see that the whole transgender in sport fixation is nothing about fairness, its simply a front in the culture war. and on that, J Liew nails it in his article. The amount of time, politicians and 'political' commentators spend debating these issues is ridiculous. its no coincidence that many of the same voices often (on social media at any rate) lament the 'urbanisation' of our towns and cities and lack of 'british / englishness', when what they really mean is that theres too many brown and black people. but they wont say it like that, because they are cowards.