So what, they're supposed to be born in the wrong body and not transition, thus being stuck in the wrong body their whole lives, because of bigots? It's hardly a choice, transitioning is a necessity when faced with going your whole life not able to be who you really are.
Transgender Athletes
- Thread starter Stack
- Start date
Have to say I'm not clued up on this topic and look to guidance from those who know more.
I was listening to a discussion on this in LBC the other night, admittedly it was whilst working so I wasn't able to give it 100% attention. So maybe I'm wrong.
However one person was saying it's more complicated than some would suggest. In the case of the swimmer, which was the main focus, it's also about lung development etc.
Personally I don't know how much of this would be an advantage/disadvantage in terms of swimming. Just putting it out there for those more knowledgeable to understand if it would make a difference
Why assume bigotry is the only reason a person would choose not to transition? I've met people who treat their dysphoria in ways other than transition who might be very offended by the suggestion they are not being who they really are if they don't transition.
And what about people who are not dysphoric but still transition? They don't feel they were "born in the wrong body" as you put it. What about those who transition and transition and then transition back? They're all making a decision to do so. I have no doubt it's an extremely difficult path to take and anyone who gets relief from their dysphoria by transitioning has my utmost admiration. They should be free from any abuse for trying to live a life on the outside that best reflects how they feel on the inside. But it is very clearly a choice. Nobody makes a choice to be straight/gay/bi so equating being trans as the same as sexual orientation is incorrect.
A progressive argument is that non transitioning people who suffer from gender dysphoria and are unable to actually transition due to personal circumstances (safety or living circumstances mainly) still come under the umbrella of being trans hence the act of socially transitioning ( I hate that terminology actually) is a choice but being trans isn't.
What's the joke?
But you're assuming that all people who are dysphoric who don't transition are only not doing so due to the external circumstances. Some view their dysphoria as a mental condition and treat it with behavioral therapy etc. Why would we put them under the umbrella of being trans if they don't want to transition? Why would we put them under that umbrella if they don't want to be?
But here is the rub, the feminist course has always been fundermentally underpinned by bringing equality to the sexes and that there isn't any real reason why there should be differentiation; obviously this was achieved in stages/took on different issues as it evolved, hence why there has always been an element of in-fighting within the movement.
However, if people say when it comes to this stage, 'no actually there is a difference', then it could open a pandora's box of consequences imo.
I say this as it will support the notion that feminism is hypocritical and doesn't actually want true equality but rather a 'mix and match' status where they only pick and choose which areas they wish to have equality but want protection/special status/continuation in other areas.
This for me is very dangerous as hypocrisy is the quickest way to lose an argument and even have things that you've already gained reversed.
The comment below, is somewhat of a good example. If feminism wants true equality then, why are women who do not have children (as obviously children need someone to look after them and typically this is still the mother) not forcibly conscripted like men? I say this as a lot of combat today isn't hand to hand, but rather long range with machinery. There isn't really a difference between weather a man pulls the trigger or a women.
This is why I am philosophically challenged in this debate, as I see repercussions for the feminist movement/a evolution into a new movement in which ever way it ultimately goes.
This consequently gets back to my initial point. If feminism's overarching aim since it's inception was equality between the sexes, something like this was always bound to happen and is unavoidable (allowing transgendered atheltes/the abolishment of differentiation between the sexes) if they are ultimately going to achieve this. However, if the movement rejects this, where does it go from there and will there then be a roll back of other liberties gained as it's founding principal will be undermined?
I say this, as the rolling back (abortion in particular) has already started in places such as The US and Poland (although I also recognise this is also a issue that touches on religion as well.)
there is a whole host of reasons why someone who is trans may choose not to transition. the abuse, discrimination, and prejudice they receive by doing so being a large part of it I imagine. it's very much the equivalent of being a closeted gay person from say 30 years ago, and even still today.
people are born trans. nobody chooses it.
Because if someone wants to be under that umbrella they can be, and I'm not going to tell them otherwise. If someone doesn't want to then they dont have to be.
Precisely. It's a choice as I said.
I saw that man sized trans athlete stood next to those female swimmers and thought, surely they must think whats the point? Trans athletes need their own category. it's not fair on women.
How is someone who transitions due to severe body dysmorphia and depression from early childhood sexual trauma with no gender dysphoria "born trans"?
How is someone who through childhood circumstances developed a fetish for women's clothes which carries on into later life at which point they decide to transition full time. Doing so because, by their own admission, it turns them on (again no dysphoria) "born trans"?
Both are two real life examples I've encountered.
With regards to the dysphoric, as I've said each individual makes their own choice how to deal with it. If they transition, they are trans. If they don't, they're not. The same way we should not tell trans people how they are allowed to identify, putting a trans label on someone who does not identify as such is not cool and you should refrain from doing so.
Being trans isn't a choice, the treatment for gender dysphoria could arguably be seen as one. Coming out as trans/transitioning can lead to discrimination, social rejection and ostracization the prospect of which will leave some unwilling to do it.
Gender dysphoria can resolve itself, but it's rare for it to do so if it persists through puberty. According to studies (though they have been criticised, and a lot of the criticism is fair) up to 80% of children diagnosed with GD will desist, and those that do often turn out to be cis and bi/gay. We don't know why, but maybe there's a chance being gay/bi can manifest that way in children. Studies have also shown that there's a pattern among children who desist; while those who persist tend to feel like they were born in the wrong body, those that desist generally tend to cite a desire to fulfill the opposite gender role as a primary motivator.
If someone is actually trans and suffer from gender dysphoria, and make the choice not to transition, but rather seek other alternatives, that's their right, but I'd think it's likely they're doing it out of fear of the ramifications, internalised transphobia or because gender affirming treatments/surgery is prohibitively expensive.
As for the bolded; there are trans folks who don't suffer from dysphoria, but they're still just as trans as those who do.
About those who transition and then transition back; The vast majority (80%+) of those who de-transition cite social rejection, discrimination, ostracization, or prohibitive costs of treatment as the reason for why they chose to do so.
She's only 5'7", though obviously somewhat broader over the shoulder/chest area.
But who are you to label people trans who don't except that label? If someone is dysphoric and their choice of treatment is not transition, why would label them that way?
And I never said people who aren't dysphoric aren't trans. I said they made a choice to transition based on their life experiences, therefore weren't "born trans".
One look on r/detrans will tell you that stat is most likely a survey of people who have transitioned back rather than actual destransitioners. But that's besides the point. The issue was whether it was a choice or not. And if someone can make a decision to transition or not, and people can transition for reasons other than dysphoria, then it cannot be equated to homosexuality. You can de-trans, you can't de-gay.
I don't, I'm just saying that if it's persisted, then they're likely doing it for other reasons than not actually being trans.
Plenty of studies suggest that what causes someone to be trans is biological and happens in the womb, which would suggest that they were, in fact, born trans. What varies is when they realise that they are.
And your anecdotal evidence, gathered by looking at a wildly transphobic reddit sub (and that is, since we're making is assumptions, likely full of false stories written by transphobes) , trumps acual research on the topic? There are several studies and surveys that have been done, and all point in the same general direction, namely that external factors are the driving force behind the vast majority of detransitions.
In short: no, being trans is not a choice any more than being bi or gay is. Then again, by your logic, gay people can submit themselves to conversion therapy. The majority choose not to, so being gay is clearly a choice, too.
I think this angle misses an important distinction. There is a difference between seeking political/economic/legal equality, equal access, equality of opportunity, and not recognizing any biological difference between the sexes. The former can most certainly be achieved without a blanket literal statement that 'men and women are equal in every way'. It's more like men and women should be treated equally under any legal/political/economic system.
We already make this distinction, that people should be treated equally but that doesn't equate to biological equivalence, with, for instance, people in a wheelchair. We build ramps, elevators and other components of ADA access so there is equality of access and equality of opportunity. We don't claim that people in a wheelchair are biologically "equal" to people not in a wheelchair because that would mean just building stairs and not accommodating the biological differences. Or pertinent to this example, Title IX in America grants women equal access to sports and athletic scholarships but it doesn't insist men and women all play on the same teams together.
Acknowledging that there are a few important biological differences (and this should be obvious as men do not get pregnant and give birth) should, in no way affect any of the rights and equality under political-economic systems. I believe its also okay that these differences can even grant some extra rights such as maternity leave being longer than paternity leave (for those countries/companies where paternity leave is even a thing). We can provide equality under the system without claiming that men and women are equal in every way.
None of what you're saying makes sense unless you equate being dysphoric as being trans. If someone who is dysphoric does not transition, they are not trans. If someone told you they were dysphoric but not trans, would you just tell them you know better?
If you believe the posters on Reddit are lying or transphobes, that's fine. It's the internet, some probably are. This might be more your speed. It's a webinar for detrans awareness day. Plenty of real life de-trans people talking about their experiences.
And your last paragraph is just homophobic. Please don't compare someone's choice to transition to the immutable fact of being gay.
If you mean Lia Thomas, then no. She’s much taller than 5’7”.
Anna Kalandanze is 5’9” per her recruiting profile:
https://www.ncsasports.org/womens-s...ore/lower-merion-high-school1/anna-kalandadze
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
CNN even reported her as “nearly 6’4”’ earlier this year.
“How an Ivy League swimmer became the face of the debate on transgender women in sports
By Eric Levenson, CNN
Updated 1710 GMT (0110 HKT) March 22, 2022
Boston (CNN)Lia Thomas stood tall and smiled wide atop the championship podium, her nearly 6-foot-4 frame pushing her head past the top of the Ivy League's green photo backdrop.”
https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/22/us/lia-thomas-transgender-swimmer-ivy-league/index.html
Last edited:
Ok, I think we have a very different interpretation on the recent events and the participation on athletes such as Lia Thomas.
You say she's not dominating because she's not winning every single race but we're talking about finals at the highest level at college level in United States, which is a country that produces some of the best talent in swimming.
You see her finishing 5th or 8th it's not dominating as there are a few girls who did better than her, and thus everything is fair, but we're talking about she being amongst the best the country and in the world respective to her category. Before transitioning she wasn't at that level within the men, so the way I see it she's already jumped into a more competitive category.
I didn't want to bring this up as I thought it was irrelevant but some people, swimmers and teammates of her suspect she was holding back on some of the finals after getting so much backlash after winning the 500 yards. For me it's irrelevant because it's already very noticeable the advantages she withholds as a biological male, in the prelims and classification she was already projected as the favorite in various events because of the times she was registering. In short she's performing a lot better competing against women than what she was doing competing against men. It's not something magical, or that she suddenly became a better swimmer, her times are even slower but that is the difference in athletic performance between men and women. Anyone that has been training since an early age and then transitions from male to female is going to have an advantage when competing against biological women. It might not be enough to make them the best but they're going to be surely competing at a higher tier, so that's why it's seen as an unfair advantage.
Like I said you're not interpreting this the same way I do, I think Lia Thomas has it very rough right now if you've seen some of the videos of her competing. All the swimmers congratulate each other at the end of every race while actively ignoring her. She doesn't get any cheers and when they say her name people goes silent at best or were yelling mean things to her at worse when she won the 500 yards. So I really can't see how this can continue, the girls are clearly upset about her presence and everything it implies and it's also something the public doesn't approve as it's damaging the sport and it's integrity.
As I said, some people's gender dysphoria does desist, and people are free to choose whatever option they're most comfortable with when it comes to how to deal with it. Not transitioning does not equal not being trans, and I've given you several reasons for why.
Mmm, yes, I'll watch a 5+ hour video by an anti-trans org. That's not to say the perspectives of the people featured aren't valid or real, but it's not relevant to what we were discussing, namely the causes for detransitioning. It's not like I denied it happens, nor that there aren't those who do so because they realise they aren't trans.
No, I'm just applying logic wrt trans people to bi and gay people, which would include me.
I also noticed that you conveniently skipped the part about the suspected pre-natal biological factors.
My bad, saw that number bandied about elsewhere and assumed it was correct.
Some peoples dysphoria does not desist and yet they still don't transition. Some people transition and their dysphoria persists so not sure why you think that proves anything. Again being dysphoric is not being trans.
Don't watch the video then. You dismissed the accounts of people on Reddit so I was merely giving you the chance to listen to real-life de-trans people tell their stories.
If you're gay or bi it's even more perplexing why you would think someone choosing to undergo transition is the same as being born gay/bi. How can you equate a condition that can desist with homosexuality?
With regards to your point about pre natal. The evidence suggests that pre natal factors along with genetics, environmental factors can contribute to the susceptibility of development of dysphoria. So not only are people not born trans, they're not born gender dysphoric as it's a condition that develops due to a myriad of factors. I didn't respond because you continually confuse transitioning with dysphoria.
Its this isnt it. its such a small issue thats been turned into a major one by culture war warriors and right wing press.
No worries. There’s something going on online where folks are changing / misrepresenting Lia Thomas’ height recently to say she’s around 5’8”. Just do a Twitter search for “Lia Thomas height” and you’ll see what I mean.
Like a Manchester United transfer fee.
Contradicts literally nothing I've said anywhere, but do go on tilting at windmills.
My original claim wasn't that no one detransitions because they realise they aren't trans, it was that the vast majority do so for other, external reasons. Your response to which was to counter it by citing a controversial reddit sub, then linking a video with individual accounts. None of which counters or refutes the stats I referenced, so I'm unsure as to what you're even trying to prove at this point. You're certainly not arguing against anything I said.
Because it's generally accepted that those who are trans have been so from birth. Most report having felt different for as long as they can remember, what varies is usually when they realised why. Hence I don't believe it's a choice anymore than I believe sexuality is a choice. As should have been clear by me prefacing the example with "by your logic."
No, I acknowledge the very strong correlation between dysphoria and being trans. You're the one who seems to think being trans is a result of gender dysphoria. It isn't. There are people who aren't trans who suffer from GD, the majority children, most of whom turn out to be bi or gay. Which hints at a link between nascent homo-/bisexuality and GD, but we've yet to understand how or why. There are also trans people who haven't suffered from GD, and still transitioned because they identified as something other than their assigned gender, just without significant distress resulting from that mismatch.
And the reality is that the majority of adolescents and adults who suffer from GD are also trans. Not all, but the majority. This is borne out by the data.
Science Vs. podcast has a really nice episode on trans children and trans athletes (as kids). I wish they went into more but there is not a lot of data out there:
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aH...Q4aUDahcKEwjo9f7ghN32AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAQ&hl=en
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aH...Q4aUDahcKEwjo9f7ghN32AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAQ&hl=en
I can't believe we're doing the "being trans is a choice" thing. I'm lying, but feck.
Yeah, after that vast majority got past the "gay is a choice" bit, you would think they would come to the logical conclusion that trans isn't either but I don't think logic is where they are getting their "beliefs" from.
Tell me about it.
Go back 30 years and pretty much all of PhilQ’s points were used exactly the same against gay people. Bigotry under a new hat.
So now being trans is a choice. What is this medieval thinking. I wonder if he himself CHOSE to be cis or he just IS.
I have said nothing bigoted. I said transitioning was a choice. Based on the fact that someone has a choice whether to transition or not. I didn't say dysphoria was a choice. I never said trans people don't exist. I never said I disliked trans people or thought they deserved abuse. In fact I've stated the opposite. I've stated my admiration for trans people and the struggle they face. Yet you come here calling me a bigot.
Are there trans mens - gone from a woman to a man - who are competing with men in sport and doing well?
Serious Q
Serious Q
You don’t think trans people are born trans. Same argument as gay people 30 years ago.
You’ve given anecdotal evidence of people transitioning because of some kind of fetish or childhood trauma, as if this relates to trans people in any way. This same kind of mental gymnastics was used to explain why people ‘turned’ gay 30 years ago, too.
And whilst you say some nice things about trans people I’m not convinced you accept trans women as women, nor trans men as men.
I've given you examples of people who didn't transition due to dysphoria. You are aware you don't need to be dysphoric to transition? Just because they are in a minority, are they any less trans than people who are dysphoric?
Its unusual I know but I have two sets of friends who have had a child transition. These are 2 kids I have known since they were born, now both in their early 20s and I know this is anecdotal but for both of them it wasnt a choice, its something they had to do because of who they were as people. Its an incredibly nuanced and complex thing and having hard and fast, blanket beliefs on choice or not is pretty naive.
No
Quod erat demonstrandum.
Literally all you do in this thread(for years at this point) is call people trying to make reasoned arguments bigots. There is no before and after point for someone who is gay(strawman), there is clearly a physical one for people that transition. We are talking about individuals competing in gender segregated sport, and how transitioning impacts the current setup in sports. I'm sure you know exactly what he is saying but it just gives you a nice jumping off point to call someone else a bigot.
Are people born trans or do they choose to be trans?
Maybe before calling folks bigots, let’s all take a deep breath and find a dictionary and read the difference between the words “transgender” and “transition”.
That conversation is not about sports, it's about whether or not being trans is a choice. You read it, so you know.