Transgender rights discussion

[nimic]

Brutal!

I couldn't help it

 

[DOTA]

with at least some hard left feminists and LGBT rights advocates taking issue with the tactics and goals of the sort of trans rights advocates that are piling on to J.K. Rowling

Who?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Who?

Seriously?

 

[maniak]

I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, but on the whole we’ve come a long way. I don’t think we’ll go any further crying bigot at Rowling for talking about trans people.

I know I keep repeating myself but Twitter sucks. Nobody seems to be there to actually ask her what she thinks. They seem to project their own insecurities at her and then throw their toys out the pram.

Sure, but just because things are better than they were, it doesn't mean the job is done. If bigotry arises, even in small scale, it should be pointed out. It seems to be to be the case here. Rowling is not asking for trans people to be sent to gulags but she's saying things online and in her books that are unsettling and occasionally offensive. If people react to it, I don't see it as crying, but rather as a legitimate response (obviously death threats and the like are the loon fringe).

I don't have tweeter, so I follow this through the news and links people post here and there. Sometimes I feel people use the "it's tweeter so it's a bunch of loons we can just ignore" to dismiss something unfairly.

 

[Prodigal7]

That is a good post and makes a lot of sense. This is mainly about people resisting change. I think it does miss an interesting nuance here. I’m very old but not old enough to be certain about whether or not some of the voices speaking up against progressive ideologies in the past were people who would consider themselves fellow progressives? My memory is shite but wasn’t the culture war in the 80s/90s a much more straightforward conservative vs progressive difference of opinion?

The trans rights debate clearly has similar combatants at opposite extremes but there’s a lot more to it than that, with at least some hard left feminists and LGBT rights advocates taking issue with the tactics and goals of the sort of trans rights advocates that are piling on to J.K. Rowling. I’m not sure that’s as directly comparable with the historical movements you use as analogies.

The other elephant in the room is the idea that progressive ideologies are always - and always will be - positive for society. That’s it’s not possible to ever reach a point where the progressives take a wrong turn and go off on an ideological tangent which ends up doing more harm than good. Couldn’t there come a point where battling to protect the rights of some minorities could have net negative consequences for the vulnerable as a whole? Obviously, there are no historical examples of this happening in the past. Does this really mean it couldn’t happen now, or at any point in the future?

And that’s not mention the possibility that all this bun-fighting on the left could makes right wing politics seem more rational, coherent and appealing to young people than they ever were in the 80s/90s. My memory of conservatives in that era was of people old long before their time and not remotely interesting to the vast majority of ‘young folk’. Sadly, I’m not sure that’s the case any more. I agree that “the younger generation will always win” but I’m way more worried now than I was when I was young myself that the politics of this victorious younger generation could be a long way to the right of my own.

Really interesting point and well put. Progressive is a subjective term. Is something good for our own well being and for society, or not. The trans argument sits in the middle of that I think and it’s very unfair to call someone who believe in gender identification a biggot, which is actually happening.

 

[DOTA]

Seriously?

Yeah. I need to know who to cancel, Pogue!

Honestly, I move in far left feminist and queer circles. I don't see people taking issue with the tactics and goals.

 

[fergieisold]

Sure, but just because things are better than they were, it doesn't mean the job is done. If bigotry arises, even in small scale, it should be pointed out. It seems to be to be the case here. Rowling is not asking for trans people to be sent to gulags but she's saying things online and in her books that are unsettling and occasionally offensive. If people react to it, I don't see it as crying, but rather as a legitimate response (obviously death threats and the like are the loon fringe).

I don't have tweeter, so I follow this through the news and links people post here and there. Sometimes I feel people use the "it's tweeter so it's a bunch of loons we can just ignore" to dismiss something unfairly.

Im sure there’s more that can be done. I might be totally wrong but I suspect there’s a point where we have to accept it’s ok to not be comfortable with certain aspects of society. I think acknowledgement and acceptance is key rather than forcing everybody to like everything about anything that can possibly exist.

 

[DOTA]

Im sure there’s more that can be done. I might be totally wrong but I suspect there’s a point where we have to accept it’s ok to not be comfortable with certain aspects of society. I think acknowledgement and acceptance is key rather than forcing everybody to like everything about anything that can possibly exist.

Have you read what Rowling said? What did you think?

 

[fergieisold]

Have you read what Rowling said? What did you think?

the essay in the link? No I’ve not read it but will do!

not read the book either yet. Apparently it’s shit so not sure it’ll be enjoyable just to find out if she’s a raving transphobe

 

[DOTA]

the essay in the link? No I’ve not read it but will do!

not read the book either yet. Apparently it’s shit so not sure it’ll be enjoyable just to find out if she’s a raving transphobe

I've never read any of her books. Cannot comment. My sister used to like them.

EDIT - IIRC her take is that the first Potter book is horrendously written but she gradually got better from there and that thinking she's an appalling writer in a world where Dan Brown exists is not fair.

 

[harms]

Intolerant of intolerance, yes.

If you're a bigot, expect to be dumped on for it.

Nah, no one deserves death threats for something that they’ve said. It’s just aggressive loonies trying to justify their behavior with a right cause.

It’s so weird that an author whose biggest work was basically a huge anti-discrimination manifest (although she went over the top with those post-factum homoerotic reveals) turned out to be so blatantly transphobic.

 

[DOTA]

Nah, no one deserves death threats for something that they’ve said. It’s just aggressive loonies trying to justify their behavior with a right cause.

It’s so weird that an author whose biggest work was basically a huge anti-discrimination manifest (although she went over the top with those post-factum homoerotic reveals) turned out to be so blatantly transphobic.

There's the goblin bankers, the Irish boy who blows things up and the just bafflingly named sole Chinese character.

If she did set out to be hugely anti-discriminatory she was really bad at it.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah. I need to know who to cancel, Pogue!

Honestly, I move in far left feminist and queer circles. I don't see people taking issue with the tactics and goals.

TERFs are feminists, right? And I don’t think I’ve ever met a feminist who wasn’t left wing! The Graham Linehan gang seems to have more than its fair share of lesbians, who I’m sure would consider themselves as generally anti-homophobia and in favour of LGBT rights.

I’m sure you know much more about this than me but as a casual observer of the endless bickering on twitter it definitely looks as though there’s much more in-fighting than in the historical progressive movements that @Mockney references. I could be wrong, though. This stuff interests me but politics and the human rights movement is miles outside my sphere of expertise!

 

[DOTA]

TERFs are feminists, right? And I don’t think I’ve ever met a feminist who wasn’t left wing! The Graham Linehan gang seems to have more than its fair share of lesbians, who I’m sure would consider themselves as generally anti-homophobia and in favour of LGBT rights.

I’m sure you know much more about this than me but as a casual observer of the endless bickering on twitter it definitely looks as though there’s much more in-fighting than in the historical progressive movements that @Mockney references. I could be wrong, though. This stuff interests me but politics and the human rights movement is miles outside my sphere of expertise!

I don't tend to call people TERF's because of that issue. I don't see the point in deciding whether or not I think they are a radical feminist.

I don't know any left wing feminists or LGBT advocates who don't support trans rights. Either personally or that I've heard of.

Name names! I'm ready to start my list of traitors!

 

[harms]

There's the goblin bankers, the Irish boy who blows things up and the just bafflingly named sole Chinese character.

If she did set out to be hugely anti-discriminatory she was really bad at it.

You haven’t read it, right?

Goblins, elves, muggles etc. are all addressed to in a big metaphor regarding discrimination, as the magic society is horrendously outdated and unjust to minorities. More so, all those minorities are humanized one after another as Harry grows – first the muggle-born (never really in question though), then the elves, then the goblins (closer to the end) etc. She hasn’t really addressed homosexuality, which is why she went all-in after the fact

I’m not saying that she did it flawlessly, but that was clearly the intent behind her work.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I don't tend to call people TERF's because of that issue. I don't see the point in deciding whether or not I think they are a radical feminist.

I don't know any left wing feminists or LGBT advocates who don't support trans rights. Either personally or that I've heard of.

Name names! I'm ready to start my list of traitors!

Isn’t that the point though? I’m not sure even J.K. Rowling herself thinks that she wants to deny trans people their rights. It’s just that she has a different opinion on what giving them rights might look like, as compared to the opinions of the assorted twitter profiles shitting on her this past year or two. A lot of the vitriol is between people who are basically on the same side, which is where this differs from progressive movements from previous decades.

 

[DOTA]

You haven’t read it, right?

Goblins, elves, muggles etc. are all addressed to in a big metaphor regarding discrimination, as the magic society is horrendously outdated and unjust to minorities. More so, all those minorities are humanized one after another as Harry grows – first the muggle-born (never really in question though), then the elves, then the goblins (closer to the end) etc. She hasn’t really addressed homosexuality, which is why she went all-in after the fact

I’m not saying that she did it flawlessly, but that was clearly the intent behind her work.

I think I managed two pages when I was 9, as my older sister demanded it. I'm just trying to blag, like lots of people in this thread are regarding what Rowling actually said.

Ooh, I forgot the slavery stuff! The house elf things?

 

[DOTA]

Isn’t that the point though? I’m not sure even J.K. Rowling herself thinks that she wants to deny trans people their rights. It’s just that she has a different opinion on what giving them rights might look like, as compared to the opinions of the assorted twitter profiles shitting on her this past year or two. A lot of the vitriol is between people who are basically on the same side, which is where this differs from progressive movements from previous decades.

Yeah but who though?

 

[harms]

I think I managed two pages when I was 9, as my older sister demanded it. I'm just trying to blag, like lost of people in this thread are regarding what Rowling actually said.

Ooh, I forgot the slavery stuff! The house elf things?

Yeah, those ones. It’s actually quite nicely written – they’re simply a part of the magic entourage in the first book and suddenly in the second one the outsider, Hermione, points out that they’re fecking slaves (and Harry is quite reluctant to help her out at first as they’re so useful and seemingly happy with their role).

Anyway, the question for me is her intent – she clearly misses out on a lot of things, but the original idea of this book and the original conflict is “racist” dark wizards and the progressive muggle-friendly wizards. So I’d expect, perhaps, ignorant opinions from her, but not a well-informed and aggressive discrimination – and it’s clearly the latter at this point.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah but who though?

Well how about J.K. Rowling, for starters?!

 

[Reditus]

It’s all so complicated. It used to be so much easier of just being left right or somewhere in between.

But she is fighting a war that she probably can’t win and making herself look worse all the time.

 

[DOTA]

Yeah, those ones. It’s actually quite nicely written – they’re simply a part of the magic entourage in the first book and suddenly in the second one the outsider, Hermione, points out that they’re fecking slaves (and Harry is quite reluctant to help her out at first as they’re so useful and seemingly happy with their role).

Anyway, the question for me is her intent – she clearly misses out on a lot of things, but the original idea of this book and the original conflict is “racist” dark wizards and the progressive muggle-friendly wizards. So I’d expect, perhaps, ignorant opinions from her, but not a well-informed and aggressive discrimination – and it’s clearly the latter at this point.

Yeah, that's the distinction I was trying to highlight earlier between the media's portrayal of her as an out of touch celeb saying the wrong thing by accident and the reality that is she is deeply versed in what she's saying.

 

[DOTA]

Well how about J.K. Rowling, for starters?!

The hard left J K Rowling? You're not gonna expect me to humour this. Just admit you were talking out your arse. It's a thing you do, it's fine. We know. Sometimes you pull it off, sometimes not.

 

[entropy]

Nah, no one deserves death threats for something that they’ve said. It’s just aggressive loonies trying to justify their behavior with a right cause.

are you tripping? trans people fear for their lives everyday. Please stop making BS statements like this under the guise of being constructive.

 

[Reditus]

It’s all so complicated. It used to be so much easier of just being left right or somewhere in between.

But she is fighting a war that she probably can’t win and making herself look worse all the time.

Quoting myself. I wish I could have a 2 line summery of the actual issues Rowling and Linehan have and why they are so seemingly determined to keep their fight going no matter the obvious harm it is doing to their public image.

 

[harms]

are you tripping? trans people fear for their lives everyday. Please stop making BS statements like this under the guise of being constructive.

How do those threats help trans people?

 

[NinjaFletch]

It was more a comment on my obvious rejection of the current situation online. I still believe most of the current dialogue really is something that only exists online.

I imagine back in the 80s views weren’t great when it came to minority groups and change was needed. Now it just seems like we have a situation where things are rightly liberal towards all groups and generally people really aren’t bothered who’s gay, straight, trans, whatever. People do still have opinions though that to me seem fairly normal. (E.g I don’t think it’s controversial to say a women is a women and a trans women isn’t biologically a women)...it feels like online normal opinions are being attacked and I just don’t see what anybody is trying to gain from it.

This is, with respect, utter fecking horseshit.

 

[DOTA]

Quoting myself. I wish I could have a 2 line summery of the actual issues Rowling and Linehan have and why they are so seemingly determined to keep their fight going no matter the obvious harm it is doing to their public image.

It's a cult. It sucks people in. It swears it is the only future for women's rights and the moment you believe that you are at risk of falling away completely in to the world where you are fighting a war that no one else understands outside of the Gender Critical community and so they are your only trusted friends.

Public image doesn't matter right now because time will ultimately prove you to be a hero of women's rights.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The hard left J K Rowling? You're not gonna expect me to humour this. Just admit you were talking out your arse. It's a thing you do, it's fine. We know. Sometimes you pull it off, sometimes not.

Well if you’re willing to go to war on my use of the adjective “hard” then I’m more than happy to concede defeat. You couldn’t have picked a better thread for “much lefter than thou” posturing

 

[entropy]

How do those threats help trans people?

You could literally not make terrible statements like the one I just pointed out.

 

[DOTA]

Well if you’re willing to go to war on my use of the adjective “hard” then I’m more than happy to concede defeat. You couldn’t have picked a better thread for “much lefter than thou” posturing

Look, either I stress 'hard' or you start pretending to believe Lib Dem supporting Guardian journalists are 'left wing'. I think I made the right call for both of us.

 

[Hammerfell]

Pogue’s been moving more right-wing for a while so I’m not surprised he thinks Lib Dems are hard lefties.

 

[DOTA]

Pogue’s been moving more right-wing for a while so I’m not surprised he thinks Lib Dems are hard lefties.

At least he answered my questions. The rest just have just said 'actually no I haven't read it' and bolted.

 

[harms]

You could literally not make terrible statements like the one I just pointed out.

Nah, no one deserves death threats for something that they’ve said. It’s just aggressive loonies trying to justify their behavior with a right cause.

This one? I don’t have a slightest clue what’s wrong with it. Rowling is a worryingly popular transphobe that keeps spreading her dangerous messages via twitter. People that send her death threats are aggressive loonies that don’t care one bit about trans people and are happy to be able to make threats and abuse someone without any consequences.

 

[esmufc07]

What era would you like to have been born in, out of interest? Because these kind of running battles about what is and isn’t kosher to say in public discourse have been ongoing for time immemorial. In fact the alternative scene in the UK during the 80s which Coltrane was very much a part of, was almost entirely predicated on rebuffing the old ideas of what you could and couldn’t say in comedy. Chastising the old Jim Davidson/Chubby Brown era as bigoted and old fashioned, and replacing it with the more inclusive language and attitudes of a younger generation (which are now largely normalised)... Those comics were ridiculed and pushed out of the cultural zeitgeist pretty quickly, far more so than Rowling, who as well as continuing to publish books (as evidenced by, well...this book!) also seems to have the support of a number of high profile people.

Further back the people doing this kind of "woke" chastising were the ones fighting for gay rights and civil rights and protesting the Vietnam war, all of whom were invariably called pansies or the like by the prevailing orthodoxy (hell, the hippy generation were the most pansy of all!)

So, either you agreed with those attempts to alter the discourse (probably, because you were born into an era that had normalised them) in which case if you were born then, you’d invariably BE one of the pansy woke brigade... or you believe that the great winding road of civilisation had ultimately perfected itself in or around the late 90s, when the last generation of whiney woke pansies had gotten people to be more thoughtful of their attitudes toward black and gay people (somewhat) but still didn’t give a feck about trans rights yet?

None of these attitudes are particularly new. People aren’t really fighting a hitherto unknown and unique brand of intolerant woke SJW tweens, they’re actually fighting the passage of time, and the fact that the Overton window has been gently pushing progressive ideas and attitudes into the mainstream to the point where the values of the last progressive generation, are no longer considered particularly radical or woke anymore to the new (hence the common misunderstanding of the idea that people move more right wing as they get older, when in fact they generally just stand still and society moves)...and the fierceness of the fight to get there is whitewashed as being calm and civilised. - Just look how conservatives in the US have already re-imagined MLK and the Civil Rights era as a lovely peaceful and smooth march to progress - not like now with these unruly riots and whatnot!

Similarly people like Rowling from that last 80s/90s generation haven't suddenly become mad bigots, they've just not moved with the times, and their views aren’t “liberal” anymore...and even things they think they’ve achieved, like racial progress, are being shown up by things like BLM as not having really done nearly enough... and all this evidently frustrates them, because a lot of their self image is based around the idea of being tolerant and progressive (which they were in another time) so they’re becoming ultra defensive and digging themselves further into a hole.. It's the Principle Skinner meme in action.

Like @Sweet Square says though, the younger generation will eventually win. They always do. Even if it takes a while for them to become middle aged curmudgeons with their hands on the levers of power. By which time they too will inevitably be bitching about how their attitudes to some future movement are being treated unfairly by the chip implanted cyborg pansies of 2050.

Nice to see you around again Mockers, you’ve been missed.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Pogue’s been moving more right-wing for a while so I’m not surprised he thinks Lib Dems are hard lefties.

It’s equally unsurprising that Lib Dem voters are now being portrayed as basically fascist by anyone to the left of them. Which brings me back to the point I was making, that the human rights campaigns of the past were being fought exclusively against people who believed in a legitimately regressive, highly conservative status quo.

Which obviously isn’t the case any more, no matter how far left the Overton window has shuffled in the last 30 or 40 years.

 

[Mockney]

That is a good post and makes a lot of sense. This is mainly about people resisting change. I think it does miss an interesting nuance here. I’m very old but not old enough to be certain about whether or not some of the voices speaking up against progressive ideologies in the past were people who would consider themselves fellow progressives? My memory is shite but wasn’t the culture war in the 80s/90s a much more straightforward conservative vs progressive difference of opinion?

I can’t be sure because I was too young to actually go through it, but aren’t all culture wars viewed like that by the victors? Far more straight forward than they actually were.

The trans rights debate clearly has similar combatants at opposite extremes but there’s a lot more to it than that, with at least some hard left feminists and LGBT rights advocates taking issue with the tactics and goals of the sort of trans rights advocates that are piling on to J.K. Rowling. I’m not sure that’s as directly comparable with the historical movements you use as analogies.

The other elephant in the room is the idea that progressive ideologies are always - and always will be - positive for society. That’s it’s not possible to ever reach a point where the progressives take a wrong turn and go off on an ideological tangent which ends up doing more harm than good. Couldn’t there come a point where battling to protect the rights of some minorities could have net negative consequences for the vulnerable as a whole? Obviously, there are no historical examples of this happening in the past. Does this really mean it couldn’t happen now, or at any point in the future?

Again, I’d say there are no historical examples because the people living in the times that normalised those things, well... normalised them!...you live with it. It becomes what is and the world doesn’t magically end. Just as it won’t end if trans people use their preferred bathrooms. There were plenty of people during those struggles however, who insisted that implementing them would lead to the destruction of the fabric of society...

And that’s not mention the possibility that all this bun-fighting on the left could makes right wing politics seem more rational, coherent and appealing to young people than they ever were in the 80s/90s. My memory of conservatives in that era was of people old long before their time and not remotely interesting to the vast majority of ‘young folk’. Sadly, I’m not sure that’s the case any more. I agree that “the younger generation will always win” but I’m way more worried now than I was when I was young myself that the politics of this victorious younger generation could be a long way to the right of my own.

In fact, the complete opposite it true. More young people voted for Thatcher in the 80s than for any subsequent Conservative government (42% of 18-24 year olds in 1983, compared to 33% Labour - https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-october-1974) and in fact 97 & 01 aside, the the youth vote for Con & Lab have been relatively even up until 2017 and 2019, which showed young people leaning far more towards the liberal/left end of the spectrum in greater numbers than at any time ever... the divide between left and right is becoming increasingly polarised around age

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...r-than-class-now-determines-how-britain-votes

This is all without factoring in the fact that we will have been living under a Conservative government for 14 years by the next election, and one becoming increasingly authoritarian at that, and youth are inherently rebellious.

It seems a bizarre shout that trans rights (or A.N.other left bickering point) is going to be the thing that makes a whole 2 generations who can’t afford housing in a burning world living under an austere Conservative government suddenly flip Right and reverse the trend wholesale... there are some very vocal alt-right style figures trying to bring the youth over, the Shapiros and the like, but they are hardly representative.

I could of course be wrong, and there’s a whole generation of new Nazis coming up behind the zoomers, but so far, they aren’t being represented in the data.

And tbf the whole “they were so mean I changed my entire social and economical outlook” is also a very well worn straw trope of those resisting change by framing the argument around civility rather than merit (not saying this is you of course) and it’s usually just an excuse for people to act how they wanted to anyway..

 

[Sweet Square]

Nah, no one deserves death threats for something that they’ve said.

And what if Hitler had a Twitter account ?


Checkmate ggs, debate over. Better luck next time.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I can’t be sure because I was too young to actually go through it, but aren’t all culture wars viewed like that by the victors? Far more straight forward than they actually were.



Again, I’d say there are no historical examples because the people living in the times that normalised those things, well... normalised them!...you live with it. It becomes what is and the world doesn’t magically end. Just as it won’t end if trans people use their preferred bathrooms. There were plenty of people during those struggles however, who insisted that implementing them would lead to the destruction of the fabric of society...



In fact, the complete opposite it true. More young people voted for Thatcher in the 80s than for any subsequent Conservative government (42% of 18-24 year olds in 1983, compared to 33% Labour - https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-october-1974) and in fact 97 & 01 aside, the the youth vote for Con & Lab have been relatively even up until 2017 and 2019, which showed young people leaning far more towards the liberal/left end of the spectrum in greater numbers than at any time ever... the divide between left and right is becoming increasingly polarised around age

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...r-than-class-now-determines-how-britain-votes

This is all without factoring in the fact that we will have been living under a Conservative government for 14 years by the next election, and one becoming increasingly authoritarian at that, and youth are inherently rebellious.

It seems a bizarre shout that trans rights (or A.N.other left bickering point) is going to be the thing that makes a whole 2 generations who can’t afford housing in a burning world living under an austere Conservative government suddenly flip Right and reverse the trend wholesale... there are some very vocal alt-right style figures trying to bring the youth over, the Shapiros and the like, but they are hardly representative.

I could of course be wrong, and there’s a whole generation of new Nazis coming up behind the zoomers, but so far, they aren’t being represented in the data.

And tbf the whole “they were so mean I changed my entire social and economical outlook” is also a very well worn straw trope of those resisting change by framing the argument around civility rather than merit (not saying this is you of course) and it’s usually just an excuse for people to act how they wanted to anyway..

Yeah, figured I could be wrong about this whole new generation of tweenie neo-Nazis thing as soon as I typed it. Sometimes feels that way if you spend much time online but reassuring to see data trump intuition!

 

[harms]

And what if Hitler had a Twitter account ?


Checkmate ggs, debate over. Better luck next time.

Is Hitler still directly responsible for the death of millions of people or is he simply a glorified Piers Morgan in this hypothetical scenario?